Sucker Punching character cards (split)

<Split from Quick MDP (Environment) Question>

So what exactly do you do with the Operative when she gets sucker punched?  I mean if she doesn't flip, but is destroyed do you leave her out and just start ignoring the text on the card?  I assume you don't put her in the trash, but removing her from the game seems like it may be equally incorrect.  If you leave her in play I would think the text is still active similar to a card kept around by fixed point.

I'm just curious how you play that situation.

Actually, I thought that, if the Operative would be destroyed, she flips instead (much like a hero), so Sucker Punch only causes her to flip?  I don't have her card here to check, though, and I don't remember the exact wording off the top of my head...

Do you perhaps play with the most recent printing? Currently I have the original and it says "reduced to 0 or fewer".

Character cards are indestructable, so they can't be destroyed. When otherwise 'destroyed' by cards like Sucker Punch, they are reduced to 0 hp.

I say this with nothing backing it up other than my feeling for the intent.

Baron Blade's card used to say "reduce to 0 or fewer", but because Sucker Punch could get around the flip mechanic, they reworded it to "when Baron Blade would be destroyed".

My Operative oversized from November says reduced to 0hp or less.

The big question is what if she goes into the trash and then would be played?

The situation exists where chairman can go into the trash before operative right?

The Sucker Punch workaround is confirmed to work for Apostate, so you are completely incorrect on this.  The difference is that for Apostate this is a game over, so we don't have the question that we have here.

Don't quote only half the post, especially when the second half admits i have no backing or facts for that statement.

I quoted the entire post.  The Quote function on this rather dysfunctional website eliminates all line spacing for some reason, but the text is in there (bolded for emphasis above).

Well, sorta.  We take the Chairman down before the Operative about half the time, and we just remove his cards from play entirely.  If they went into the trash, when his deck reshuffled you could get a full-health Chairman back in play on his frontside, which would make no sense.

I have the most recent printing of Rook City, and The Operative says "when reduced to 0 hp or fewer, flip her cards."  Since there's no extra protection from Shrine of the Ennead or anything, we've been playing it exactly like if the Chairman was destroyed while the Operative was alive: remove the character cards from play entirely and keep going.

It's possible that it's an oversight, though.

Yeah I understand why you would choose to do that, but understand that would be a house rule. Officially there is nothing that says remove the Chairman character card from play when it would be destroyed. So it would have to go into the trash.

Think of it as the Operative, who is still alive, using the Lazarus tanks to revive Chairman yet again.

Which brings up fun times with either there being two charcter cards that could potentially enter play seperately, or trying to navigate your deck with an oversized Chairman card in it.

I keep the regular cards handy even using the oversized ones to play with.

From the rulebook:

"Whenever a target is reduced to 0 or fewer HP, put it into the associated trash, except in the cases of hero character cards and villain character cards.  Unless stated otherwise, when a villain character card is reduced to 0 or fewer HP, the villain is destroyed and the players have won the game!"

So the Chairman is clearly not supposed to go into the trash, but the game isn't supposed to be over if the Operative is still up, either.  Since it's destroyed but can't go into the trash, removing it from play entirely seemed like the only rational way to do it.

Then it would stay in play at 0 hp and still be active? Nothing says to remove it from play (that is very specific to Final Wasteland) so that's out of the question. It doesn't flip back over to the front side. It doesn't seem like character cards go in the trash, so it would have to stay in play right? And if so, does the Chairmans text remain active since it's still in play even at 0 or fewer HP?

The rules text, as Jimmy said, reads:

> Unless stated otherwise, when a villain character card is reduced to 0 or fewer HP, the villain is destroyed and the players have won the game!"

The Operative mearly states that you can't win the game*.  The question then becomes whether destroying the villian and winning the game is a single action, or two actions.  If it's one action, then the Operative would keep the Chairman in play at 0 health, probably with his rules text still active.  If it's two actions, then the Chairman would be destroyed, which (as per the definition of "destroyed") would put him in the villian trash.

* I think.  I don't have the cards with me.

I asked Christopher about it -- on a playtest G+ hangout, way back when we were first starting GSF testing -- and he said that the first half of that still applies (he is destroyed) but since you can't win the game if the Operative is out, it just goes to your trash as normal, and can be reshuffled and played as normal. Which sucks, but it CAN happen.

Do you know if he gets shuffled in as one or two cards?  Also, when he gets played, does that trigger setup?

I just Sucker Punched Operatives Character card, it didn't split.  It does have a wierd bend in it now though.

Completely unofficially we have just flipped them when they are destroyed.  It made sense to us that a destroyed person is also incapacitated.

Officially speaking I think now that it is a very interesting choice to sucker punch them.  You don't have to worry about back side text, but you do have to worry about them coming back.  Interesting situation strategically, you might have to consider number of cards left in the deck etc.  Though the probability that they get played after the whole trash is shuffled is pretty low is pretty low.  Its a good thing the chairman isn't an underboss or the operative could start fetching him.

But what if you sucker punch a Vengeance 5 team member? There is no regular sized card to put on the trash and the shuffle back in...

I always played that destroying a target card just meant reducing it to 0HP right now and applying normal rules for 0 Hps - like flipping a character card.

So, among other things, you can sucker punch Kismet's Talisman out of existence ?

This is one of these instances where I won't care about official rulings - too much headache for nothing.

No, because the talisman specifically says that it is indestructible. Cannot be destroyed by any means. In addition, instead of just going into negative HP, it flips when it is reduced to 0 or fewer HP.

Also, I think Sucker Punch would flip the V5 villains, since they work like heroes; when they would be destroyed, they are instead flipped.

Is it specifically that or is it worded like "When they reach zero or fewer HP?"

You and me both!

From the Vengeance rule book: "When a villain character card is reduced to 0 or fewer HP, remove all of the cards from that villain's deck from the game and flip that villain's character card."

But what about when it is destroyed?

I'd still love some clarification on what to do with the dead Chairman.  Do his card(s) go into the deck faceup or facedown?  Does his setup card get shuffled in as well, or just the picture card?  If they both go in together, what happens if you pull one but not the other?  If only the picture card goes in, is his game text (e.g. Thug damage boost) still active while he's dead?  Additionally, can he deal damage from Undivided Attention if he's not in play?

It's indestructible, it cannnot be destroyed. Any destruction effects have no impact on the Talisman, only lowering it's HP does anything. (Or at least that's how I read the Glossary)

Indestructible: If a card is indestructible, it cannot be destroyed or removed from play. If a target is indestructible, it stays in play even if it is reduced to 0 or fewer HP.

EDIT: BAH! I have no idea why I thought jagarciao's post was about the Talisman, I blame lack of Coffee (which I don't drink so it's a very good excuse!)

I shouldn't have used this example - I meant to use it to point how all character cards are undestructible, but the rules don't state that.

My home rule is :

• a: using a "destroy" effect on a character card with HP left just means reduce it to 0 HP

• b : heroes with 0 Hp flip

• c : villains with 0 HP are removed from the game as normal except when they have a special text saying otherwise.

As points b and c found page 7 of the rulebook, all it does is give a specific definition of what destroy does to character cards. In fact, it was how I intuitively played untill I visited these fora and learned about the debate, long ago, with the Baron Blade not flipping problem.

It probably would be better if I chose another homerule, much simpler : ALL character cards are indestructible as long as they have Hit Points, and so immune to destroy effect, like the Talisman, rather than point a. It would make a lot of useful cards innefective (as well as a few villains attacks), but can prevent lots of problems if ever we find a way to destroy a full HP character.

In both cases, the advantage is that you don't "break" the normal villain/character behavior by using a "destroy" card, and it is easy to remember and apply.

For instance, The Grave Beckons destroy each non-villain target with 3 or fewer HP - but the rules only talk about flipping hero character card when reduced to 0 HP, and that a destroyed card is put in the apropriate trash pile. Same problem as with the Chairman above.

Anyway - if the official ruling is that destoy cards circumvent the normal gameplay of character cards, leading maybe to the Chairman being shuffled in his deck, good. I just won't apply it as it leads to more and more problems and breaks the natural flow of the game (at least as I feel the game naturally flows).

If you are looking for a way, would End of Days work as a card that could potentially destroy villains? I don't remeber the exact text of the card and I don't have it nearby, but it might be close enough to help the discussion

End of days specifically excludes character cards, relics and itself.

That sounded like a common-sense ruling.  GET 'IM!

Seriously, if this was true of the VF, it'd be true of the Operative too, and the whole point of this thread is that there's no reason to assume that's true.

I for one really like having a way to kill Apostate dead even if he has lots of Relics out.  And Wrathful Gaze is one of my favorite cards, for all that it's almost never useful.  I'd be endlessly amused to have Ra blasting one after another member of the Vengeance Five into oblivion.

In both cases, the advantage is that you don't "break" the normal villain/character behavior by using a "destroy" card

Sometimes it's fun to be able to break the rules.

For instance, The Grave Beckons destroy each non-villain target with 3 or fewer HP - but the rules only talk about flipping hero character card when reduced to 0 HP, and that a destroyed card is put in the apropriate trash pile.

Hm.  That is a bit of an issue isn't it.

Anyway - if the official ruling is that destoy cards circumvent the normal gameplay of character cards, leading maybe to the Chairman being shuffled in his deck, good. I just won't apply it as it leads to more and more problems and breaks the natural flow of the game (at least as I feel the game naturally flows).

Shuffling the Chairman is confirmed.  Shuffling the Operative is not, nor is anything regarding The Grave Beckons.  Sucker Punching Apostate is confirmed, I believe.

McBehrer wrote:

Also, I think Sucker Punch would flip the V5 villains, since they work like heroes; when they would be destroyed, they are instead flipped.

 

That sounded like a common-sense ruling.  GET 'IM!

Any and all common sense statements are prohibitted.  Seriously.

Semi-related: in the New World of Darkness RPG system, characters can buy a "Merit" called Common Sense, which costs more than half the merit points you start with (4 out of 7), but allows the GM to give your character hints and tips during gameplay, so that if your character starts to pick a fight with the Nazi werewolf biker gang, the GM rolls the Common Sense to see whether the character realizes this is a Bad Idea and aborts the course of action.

This then leads to a hilarious consequence: in one of the spin-off game lines, Changeling the Lost, there's a character type called the Wizened Oracle, who has the mystical fairy power of divination.  It explicitly works exactly like the Common Sense Merit - you consult your tarot cards or tea leaves or something, and you get exactly the quality of advice that you could get just from being a normal person with a good head on their shoulders.  So much for the ancient magics of the Fair Folk…

There is actually two interesting things here

1) End of days indicates that, if it didnt have the clarification on what isn't destroyed, those things could otherwise be destroyed.

2) Omnitron says 'When destroyed' on his replicating code bit that keeps the game going. It specifically says 'When destroyed, remove Omnitron from the game'

Which does indeed mean that character cards destroyed are put into the trash... 

which is curious because Christopher has indicated that the original intent was to make the villain character cards oversized, but they weren't able to do so due to budgetary constraints.  It would seem strange to mix big size cards with small size cards in the trash…especially when it came time to reshuffle the deck…

In most instances, when the villain is defeated, the game is over, so there wouldn't be any shuffling of the villain into his deck. The Chairman is a special case due to having a powerful minion in the Operative. Omnitron has his little robot minions, that, if not destroyed, would rebuild him. Better than he was. Better. Stronger. Faster. But I don't see Omni going into his trash due to the "remove" aspect of him being defeated. The game with him continues until all his devices are accounted for.

So what would happen if the card came back out?

You can't go through Set up again, because that is "the start of the game"

I would assume they would get their full HP and go on as if nothing happened.

It's appropriate with Operative or Chairman, since they could bide time for the other to go get vatted up.

New target, full HP. Skip Set-Up. Business as usual.

So if Parse had buffer Overload in play you could discard them.

I believe that Miss Information flipping is treated as a card entering play, hmm. . . 

She's treated as a new target entering play. Not a card entering play.

Which leads to the question : what do we do when a hero character card is destroyed ?

Explosion in the lab (Miss Information) for instance, doesn't specify "non-character cards", and if I remember correctly what I read in another thread I wasn't able to find again right now, the hero character card is in play as any other card and so can be affected. The rules for flipping explicitely say "when reduced to 0 Hp or lower", and nothing I can find about destruction.

So an explosion in the lab (or any card that doesn't exclude character cards) can destroy a hero if played at the right time (or vs the Sentinels). It seems it could also destroy an incapacitated hero ( not explicitely indestructible on this side, and probably in play too…) Or even the Sentinels fifth card, the start of play one.

As I said before, it is also a problem with The Grave Beckons, or Proletariat's Vyktor.

What happens then, "officially" or by forum consensus ? The destroyed hero card is put into the trash, and you keep taking your turn until you draw it back -and then it comes back with full HP ? Put in the trash and then consider the hero as out-of-play if he has no other hero card in play ? What happens if the hero card is destroyed but still has cards in play (by Vyktor for instance) like a gattling gun or Inspiring Presence ?

My intuition would be, as I said before, that if detroyed, you apply the same rules as if they had reached 0 HP "normally", and that incap sides/Sentinels status card should be considered as "indestructible", but it doesn't seem to match the official ruling. Your suggestions ?

In all cases except The Chairman, the Vengeful Five, and the Ennead, and Omnitron, destroying a character card specifically would be the end of that game for the villain, and remove that hero from the game...

However, Given that Christopher specifically designed the incap abilities because he doesnt like people getting kicked out of a coop game, I would hazard that the /intent/ of destroying a card is that it flips (for the cases of when a Hero Character card is destroyed)

The Chairman goes into the trash because you can't destroy himi on his front side... - you'll never get him to the point where a destroy effect could actually trigger before he flips, because he's invulveranble to damage and will never be that low. And he only goes into the the trash IF the operative is still active because the game cannot end, as per her specific rule (and Cannot trumps Can) So he has to go somewhere, and it doesn't say remove from game, so he goes into the trash. Plus he cannot flip back to his front side at 0 hp. He is not Apostate.

Omnitron has a specific condition on being destroyed, if devices are still inplay. It actually does say remove him from the game.

I would hazard that Destroy would flip Ennead and Vengeance characters based on the same /intent/ we know of Incap abilities for heroes - that nothing really stops playing, no one really gets removed. Apply that same /intent/ from hero character cards to villain character cards and destroy should only flip them (except in the two above mentioned cases, one where a Cannot flip and Cannot win, and the other specifically mentions what happens when you destroy them)

So... my logic states that Destroy effects flip all character cards, and if they cannot flip again at 0 HP (ie, not Apostate) the game ends as they are treated as 0 hp. This is with the exception of Omnitron, because he has a provision, and the Chairman who has a provision about the game NOT ending if the Operative is still in play.

Explosion in the lab can't destroy a character card. This was confirmed because of the sentinels