Jack Handle + Friendly Fire = Infinite combo?

Setback's Friendly Fire reads:

"Whenever a Hero Target deals a non-Hero Target damage, that Hero may also deal Setback 2 damage of the same type".

I don't know what the current wording of Jack Handle is, but I'm pretty sure it still changes the targeting on all of Mr. Fixer's attempts to deal damage. So as far as I can see there's a loop where Mr. Fixer damages a non-Villain Target, this allows him to attempt to damage Setback, but actually damage all non-Villain Targets, which allows him to attempt to damage Setback, etc.

There's also a less infinite version of this combo using Dual Crowbars and Silver Lining instead of Jack Handle.

I'm sure we will get a ruling that it doesn't, but as far as how it is worded, yes, it would create an infinite loop.

Actually, you could loop until Setback was dead just on Friendly fire itself with crowbars.  There has to be some crazy thing you can do with Fixed Point.

Edit: left out the part where you need crowbars.

Well, my problem is that by that logic, you might be able to say that ANY attack with Jack Handle multiplies infinitely: you hit target X, it splits into hitting X, Y, and Z, but then that split attack on X splits, the split attack on Y splits, and the split attack on Z splits... and then repeat that recursively as much as you like.

Which obviously isn't how the card is intended to be played, so I think we can rule that damage that's already been modified by Jack Handle won't be modified again.

Given THAT, while I am not a game developer or anything, I would say.. You hit somebody while Jackhandle is in play. You can also hit Setback, via Friendly Fire. The original hit splits and hits all non-hero targets. The friendly-fired damage splits and hits all non-hero targets a second time, for 2. (Setback doesn't get unlucky tokens for this attack because he took no damage.)

For each of THOSE split damages, you can trigger Friendly Fire, dealing Setback 2 melee (or whatever) damage... except since this is "the same type", it's post jack-handle damage and thus won't split again. But it does give Setback the opportunity for a LOT of unlucky tokens (for an equal amount of damage, of course).

AFAIK, there's no such thing as post jack-handle damage for Fixer. He either has one, and it affects all his damage, or he doesn't. The thing is this is actually different from the Fixed Point thing, because instead of a single instance of damage being modified by two effects, it's a bunch of separate instances of damage.

I think probably the most straightforward errata would be to make Friendly Fire once per turn. It would preserve a lot of the basic functionality of the card (letting Setback drop his hit points below the tank's, bringing his unlucky pool up so that he can get better effects off, and so on), would still allow a strong combo with Mr. Fixer, but wouldn't be crazy and infinite.

Friendly Fire doesn't loop on itself, btw, and I don't think there's a very strong reason to do it either.

Aww, man, I forgot to take Jack Handle into account... and here I thought I covered all the bases...

*mopes*

I was thinking with Crowbars it would work that way, just didn't type that part.

yeah, but with the crowbars you will kill Setback. Plus taking 3 damage (2, increased by 1 for the crowbars themselves) for 2 tokens isn't really worth it, imo.

You just need to add in fixed point and it wont matter, just like TtE on AZ with Fixed Point, infinite damage.

If you have Silver Lining in play  even without fixed point you can drop Setback to 1 or 2 hp, and have a ton of tokens, then discard 

Let's say you are at 25hp, you take 24 damage to get 16 tokens, while Fixer just dealt a villain 24 damage, then one more time you get smacked, to negative HP but with 18 tokens you are restored to 18hp.

That's a net loss of 7hp, for 27 damage to a villain target.

If you have cause and effect you stop at the 24 then on your turn play cause and effect discarding 15 tokens to deal 15 damage to a villain and yourself, but with 1 token left you end up at 1hp.

So if a villain is at 39hp or less they die, or you give up a bit of HP to do a ton of damage to a villain.  That's a pretty good reason to do it.

No no no, it's like… okay, Mr. Fixer is fighting Baron Blade, who has two Blade Battalions out.

Pre jack-handle: He uses Strike to hit Baron Blade for 1 melee damage.

Post jack-handle: He deals 1 melee to Baron Blade and both Blade Battalions.

We agree that the Jack Handle's effect doesn't trigger on itself, right? That the damage he would deal to the blade battlions, by using strike on Baron Blade when he has a Jack Handle in play, doesn't ALSO split and hit every non-hero target? And then each instance of that split damage doesn't split again ad infinitum?

My proposal is that when Friendly Fire says "the same type", it's not just things like 'melee' or 'fire' but also things like 'already split by Jack Handle'. And thus, wouldn't be split again.

Which might not be the intent of the card! But it's a very plausible way to rule it that IMHO-elegantly closes the infinite loop without requiring actual text-changing errata like "the first time each turn". And also carries interesting consequences, like… if Tachyon used a Hypersonic Assault, and Setback choose to get hit by Friendly Fire, would he be unable to deal damage until the start of Tachyon's next turn?

But, yes, if by "type" they DO just mean "melee vs fire vs whatever", then I agree this is an infinite combo. Mr. Fixer gets ready to lay down some whup-ass on a horde of mooks, trips over Setback, and hilarity ensues.

It is like a redirection, not a triggered new damage.  Instead of dealing damage to whatever target he would have you deal damage to all non-hero targets.

The inital use of strike is invalid, it doesn't go through.  If Fixer tries to smack AZ when he has jackhandle out he won't hit him.  The attack is changed from "Mr. Fixer deals 1 damage to AZ" to "Mr. Fixer deals one damage to all non-hero targets."

It would work with Setback's card because each time you dealt damage with jackhandle you could re-trigger Setback's Friendly fire, it would try to target Setback but instead target each non-hero target, allowing you to once again choose to deal setback damage, which would then be redirected to every non-hero target, allowing you to trigger the card again.

I keep looking at Friendly fire, and I keep being more and more amused at Tempest's face, and that flavor text.

It's quickly becoming my favorite card.

Type already includes "Irreducible", so there is some precedent for the type having mechanical riders attached.  I like this idea.

There's not really a way to encode it into the rules, but what I would LIKE to happen is for the damage caused by Friendly Fire to not chain with itself in Mr. Fixer's case. Like, if he already dealt damage, then used Friendly Fire to deal more damage, that's it. No more. Just a case-specific errata. The thing is, it is SO situationally useful that -- besides that ONE exploitive corner case -- there's no balance reason for it to not be able to trigger multiple times per turn. I intentionally worded it that way; with 2 damage, it's a 1-1 trade of HP to tokens, unless you're using a (really rare) damage mitigation effect, so it's hard to come out ahead.

I feel like if you made it only able to trigger once per turn in ALL cases, it would undermine its inherent usefulness, which is the ability to burn through HP quickly to rapidly build up tokens. There's a reason Setback first appeared on Shock Rounds, after all, and that reason is THIS CARD. Obviously it can't stay in its current form, or Mr. Fixer can use the 1st-ed Wrest the Mind trick all over again.

My proposition would be a simple errata stating that Mr. Fixer, specifically, can only benefit from this card once per turn.

Well, say Mr. Fixer used Jack Handle fighting the Vengeful Five, except, whoops, tricky Ermine redirects the damage she would take to Legacy!

Jack Handle doesn't replace that damage Legacy took with even MORE damage to all non-hero targets, right? Because that damage has already been "jack handled", so to speak.

So, when Setback takes damage of "the same type", one COULD argue that it's like... weird redirection that doesn't actually take away the original damage. And also sets the damage to 2. But he gets damage of type "already jack handled", and so it doesn't get replaced again with more damage to all non-hero targets, just like redirected jack handle damage.

No, it's definitely a second instance of damage. But that would be a viable alternative errata: "damage dealt this way is not affected by Mr. Fixer's "Jack Handle" card."

wait. what? So Jim’s compound bow can do 1 projectile and 1 irreducible? quote/link please?

Hmm… I just checked the rulebook, and you're right.  Irreducible isn't a type.  I'm not sure why I thought otherwise.

What if Friendly Fire was errataed to read:  "Whenever a Hero Target deals a non-Hero Target damage, that Hero may also deal Setback 2 of that damage"?

This would create a little bit of ambiguity over whether the damage is being copied or redirected, but would solve the Jack Handle problem.

Alternate wording: "…that Hero may also deal Setback 2 of the same damage"

That would imply that you are splitting the damage up, which is not something that is mechanically possible within the rules of Sentinels. Plus it wouldn't account for damage type, and -- because all instances of damage occur simultaneously -- would still feed the loop anyway.

Actually, here's my proposal: change the wording of Jack Handle. "Whenever Mr. Fixer would deal damage to exactly 1 non-hero target, deal that damage to all non-hero targets instead." It would get rid of the infinite loop, as well as the unintended Infection shenanigans. Plus it would make it so Friendly Fire could remain as written, and not have to be nerfed heavily or be erratad to mention a specific card.

But I like the infection shenanigans!

I was trying to figure out how to word Friendly Fire so that it worked like Dual Crowbars, only dealing 2 damage instead of the same amount of damage.  Since we've already resolved the Dual Crowbars / Jack Handle infinite loop, that would solve the problem without changing Friendly Fire significantly.  Clearly, I was unsuccessful.

I like the insertion of "non-hero" into Jack Handle. It does nerf it a little in a number of cases (Infection, Kismet), but I think it's thematically good and fixes this infinite loop. I'm not sure why you specify "exactly 1", though.

So you want every Tool/Style in Mr Fixer's arsenal to work on him except Jack Handle?

Why do you hate him/consistancy so much? 

I don't think Jack Handle is the problem, I think it's working as intended on 'self inflicted' damage, it just needs better wording on cards which could create an infinite loop.

It's 'cause if we're fixing Jack Handle, we might as well fix it so it doesn't infinitely loop itself, which in it's current state you could argue it does.  (mostly it doesn't come up, because Jack Handle is obviously not supposed to create an infinite damage loop with itself, but in theory it could be argued that it would)

Exactly. Just preventing exploitation of possible infinite loops.

how about on friendly fire you add:  "damage dealt this way can not trigger friendly fire."

I think that would work, and would prevent any other redirection effects from creating infinite loops as well.

You'll lose a few interactions that would let you get a few points of damage in without going infinite, but I don't think they're common enough to be much of a loss. (e.g. Smoke Bombs to a Riveting Crane Fixer or Nightmist w/ her redirection out.)

What about : "Whenever a Hero Target deals a non-Hero Target damage, this card may also deal Setback 2 damage of the same type and with the same damage modifiers."

This! It's exactly what I was going to suggest while reading this thread.

It feels slightly less elegant to me than changing Friendly Fire to work like Dual Crowbars, but I can't figure out how to word that change, so this may be the best solution.

Yeah, I guess that would work. Hooray for not changing my wording!

I'm new to the forums, and so I apologize if my suggestion goes against an unwritten rule (or a rule I didn't see), but here goes:

What if, instead of errataing specific cards, you were to simply add a rule somewhere along the lines of "If a card interaction would create an infinite loop of repeated actions, each action can occur only once per turn."

i suggest this because a certain other card game with far more complex rules has a similar ruling, involving choosing an arbitrary number of times to repeat the loop. Of course, rewarding the loop isn't the goal here, thus the different wording.

I think the >G crew would rather it never even got that far, but if it was absolutely necessary, I suspect they'd go for a meta-rule like that rather than allow infinite combos.

It's less thematic, but maybe setback should deal himself the damage for FF instead of the other heros? Or just have fixer deal the 2 damage to setback regardless of what jack handle says. 

one thing is for sure, infinite loops are not intended. 

... that works too. Having Setback deal the damage himself. Actually, I like that better. No errata required.

"Whenever a Hero target deals damage to a non-hero target, Setback may deal himself 2 damage of the same type. If he takes damage this way, add 2 tokens to his unlucky pool."

It does seem like the best solution in terms of any possible future issues that might arise, without nerfing either character.

yeah, and he doesn't have any self-damage buffs, now that they fixed High-Risk...

That is my final decision on it.

I HAVE SPOKEN

Having Setback deal the damage would be mechanically different, though.  Self-buffs on the damaging player like the Staff of Ra or Bloodly Knuckles wouldn't apply, which would cause him to take less damage.

Ok. Buffs like Galvanize and Imbued Fire still would, though. The intent of the card isn't for him to take a BUNCH of damage. In fact, 2 was the smallest number that wouldn't get blocked out by having any DR at all. It is thoroughly in line with my intent for the card.

It isn't a type, but it is a modifier that DOES carry through redirection.  "Jack-Handled" could likewise.

I LOVE this and actually thought they would do this a long time ago.

Actually I do have him use Crowbars on himself if he has Mantis out and wants to hit the same taget twice, but I don't see him Pipe Wrenching himself too often.  Although I'm pretty sure thats why the smiley face.

I do think Jackhandle is the problem.  It sounds like interactions with infection may not have been intended, and even if they were it has already caused some unitended interactions (such as this one). Its wording makes it a constant issue to watch for in new cards.  Do you really want to have to look at the "Pocket Jack Handle Case" any time you create a card that invovles heroes doing each other damage? Do you want to have to change any future cards that would invovle heroes hitting heroes when you could change one card and not have to worry about it in the future.

When the ruling came out on Crowbars that said that you recalculate bonuses rather then doing the exact same amount regardless of of armor or immunity I thought a Jack Handle fix wasn't far behind.

I don't think they worry about Legacies danger sense every time they make a new environment card, or Wrest the mind every time they make a mook that can hit hard.

I don't think one card from one hero is going to make a huge difference.  I don't think many cards will let you trigger damage to a hero every time you deal damage to a non-hero.  There aren't many situations where that makes sense.

I think (hope ?) this wasn't "corrected" because Jack Handle is meant to be also a defensive cards - the card the old martial arts master uses when he wants to be sure he won't hurt any one on his team.

environment cards doing damage doesn't cause infinite loops.

… yet.

Friendly Fire is the card that allows you to deal damage an arbitrary number of times, so it's the card where any abusive combos will originate.

I'v been thinking about this over the weekend and I havn't come to anything new, but just more confident in the bandaid fix. Im sad I missed this during PTing.

As a simple bandaid fix, I'll just be ignoring Jack-Handle when dealing setback any Friendly Fire damage. That seems like the best way to handle this. Id rather Setback *not* deal himself the damage as it would kill any useful synergy with High Risk Behavior. I know that causes a ton of cognitive dissonance with how Jack-Handle works on infections, but I can't think of any other way to keep the intent of the interactions going while getting rid of unintended Infinite damage combo.

Huh?  High Risk Behavior doesn't increase damage he deals to himself anymore.

Another easy fix would be to add a "the first time each turn" to Friendly Fire, then it wouldn't redirect more than once.

Oh right right. Nvm on that point then. Maybe Setback hitting himself is the best way to go as errata? I think it would be overly nerfy to add the first time tag on FF. If I were to pick on of the two solutions, I know where my vote would go.

Was it?  I don't know I've heard varied reports.  I don't know that it was actually intended to work with infection, etc that way.  You could be right however.

Neither of those cause infinite loops.  Neither one has so much potential for unintended consequences.  I might go so far as to say no other card has so much potential to cause unintended consequences.

Isn't "unintended consequences" pretty much the whole point of Setback?

Although true that would nerf if for heros that hit more than once per turn.

My quote is a much more general statement about Jack Handle and how any card that has a hero deal damage to a hero has to be written around it.

Neither of those cause infinite loops.  Neither one has so much potential for unintended consequences.  I might go so far as to say no other card has so much potential to cause unintended consequences.

Jack Handle isn't the problem.

Raptor bot can deal a non-hero target damage, and can have Wrest the Mind affecting it.

The damage it would deal to Setback could be redirected by Wrest the mind, letting it choose again to deal damage to setback, Eventually when everything in the world is dead you let Raptor take damage and die, ending the chain.

The fix needs to be to Setback's card.

We have two options that would work just fine, we don't need to change Jack Handle.

I disagree. Jack Handle is definitely the problem. The fact that it takes a single instance of damage and splits it up into multiple instances of damage (which are actually just multiple, SINGLE INSTANCES of damage) without regard for who the initial target was means that it has plenty of room for exploitation. Without such a poorly-worded card, Friendly Fire has no design flaws. I get the way Jack Handle SHOULD work -- a weak punch becomes a broad, sweeping attack that hits multiple targets -- but the way it is now and the way it interacts with cards like Infection and FF make no sense from a thematic OR mechanical standpoint. Infection: you have an infection. Holding a stick can make you magically turn the infection outward and hit things with it. WAT. Friendly fire: Setback gets in the way and gets hit. Holding a stick makes Setback reflect the hit infinitely until literally everything is dead. WAT.

Jack Handle needs to change. Friendly Fire does not. There are several ways to change it without changing the intent.

"Whenever Mr. Fixer would deal damage to a target -- either by using a power or playing a card -- prevent that damage and instead Mr. Fixer deals that damage to all non-hero targets."

"Whenever Mr. Fixer would deal damage to a non-hero target, deal that damage to each non-hero target instead. Damage dealt this way is not affected by this card's effect."

"The first time Mr. Fixer would deal damage each phase, instead deal that damage to each non-hero target."

Wouldn't the raptor bot kill itelf after the first use of wrest the mind on it?  Or is this some kind of recursive chain that you are thinking where the second part never gets resolved because of a loop in the first part?  Yeah, I get how the look would work.

And every card ever made or to be made that involves heroes possibly hitting heroes.

That is exactly why I really think Jack Handle should only trigger if you are targeting a non-hero target from a mechanics AND a theme stand point.  Though I have thought that from the first time I read the infection ruling.

Wouldn't the raptor bot kill itelf after the first use of wrest the mind on it?  Or is this some kind of recursive chain that you are thinking where the second part never gets resolved because of a loop in the first part?  Yeah, I get how the look would work.

No it wouldn't, you would trigger Friendly Fire when Raptor bot dealt damage to a non-hero target, then do it again after redirecting the friendly fire shot.

It wouldn't stop to take the Wrest the Mind damage until it decided to not trigger friendly fire.

So yeah, that is two loops.  If any other hero decks introduce a non-character card target that can deal damage there will be more.

But I'm sure the problem is Wrest the Mind.

I thought Wrest the Mind could only be played on non-hero targets, because Visionary could put it on herself for the same effect.

Edit: no, it's just non-character cards. Hmm... I'd say that the damage would kick in before another chance to use Friendly Fire would pop up, since it's a rider of "if you redirect the damage," and redirecting damage happens before dealing damage? That or Wrest should only go on non-hero targets.

Or, just errata FF so Setback is the source of the damage. That would fix that problem and the Jack Handle one (although I STILL think Jack Handle needs reworking, also.)

Jack Handle was fine before FF. Its fine now. Its clearly not the issue.

It's nice that Jack Handle is defense against self-damage, because there's too little of that at the moment.  But it makes no sense whatsoever thematically.  Unfortunately there aren't any easy fixes, because even the "non-hero target" option would mean that if Fixer tried to hit an enemy he couldn't damage, Jack Handle would fail to activate.  I'm really unsure as to what the design intent is with Jack Handle, so I'm wary of making any sweeping suggestions.

In this particular loop, though, I'd think "Damage caused by Friendly Fire cannot trigger Friendly Fire" would be the best fix.

You just laid out the intent of the card.

Look guys, Rook City was the 1st expansion. I promise you that Mr Fixer was playtested a lot with the other RC villains, including Plauge Rat. Jack Handle and Infections? Trust me, it came up. Its been out for years. Its working as intended. 

I don't think this is accuate.  My understanding is that Jack Handle was meant to be an AoE attack, not defensive.  It was supposed to turn Strike into Squall.  Though I could be wrong.

As far as future development goes:

Don't design a card that has heroes hurt themselves without expecting shenanigans. (Sorry any sickness, disease, bad luck, etc effect)

Don't design a card that has heroes hurt other heros without expecting shenanigans.  (Sorry any kind of mind control or confussion, bad luck effect)

Don't have a trigger off of damage that causes damage without expecting infinite shenanigans.

The should have just named the card shenanigans.

Yeah I acctually said this in my post: " Or is this some kind of recursive chain that you are thinking where the second part never gets resolved because of a loop in the first part?  Yeah, I get how the look would work."

At least that takes three cards from three heroes and you really have to be aiming for this to happen as it requires Wrest to be played in a way counter to what it normally does.  However play Fixer with Setback where those two cards come out and completely unintentionally and in the normal course of play you get a loop.  So although it does exist is probably easier to fix.  Jack Handle presents FUTURE problems is my point.

Most of the shenanigans aren't TOO bad -- as long as we keep in mind that cards that allow damage dealt to non-hero targets to trigger damage to hero targets will cause Jack Handle to freak out, we'll be fine.

For the current scenario, though, I think the easiest situation is to make Setback be the source of the damage for Friendly Fire. I hate to have to change it, after making such a BIG DEAL (mostly to my friends) about how I wrote the darn thing, but it looks like it's a necessary sacrifice.

Well then, ok.  I still think its just brokeness and shenanigans waiting to happen though.  I actually can't believe there wasn't an issue sooner.   Well I mean Kismet may have been a problem but it was just minor enough that no one cared.  Not according to what you are saying here though.  

I'm a little curious about PR test.  Was it "Oh thats odd, well I guess thats kind of cool, lets keep it" as opposed to "Yup that is absolutely why the card was made."  Obviously I wouldn't know but some of you do.

I don't see how Jack Handle can present a problem with any card that doesn't function exactly like Friendly Fire. If a Hero or Villain card allows a Hero to deal damage to a non-Hero target then Mr. Fixer benefitting from Jack Handle is no more abusive than The Sentinels benefiting from Sentinel Tactics. It's only cards that allow Heroes to damage Heroes for benefit that can possibly cause Jack Handle abuse.

Friendly Fire, on the other hand, lets you make an arbitrary number of attacks on Setback. That's just begging for crazy comboes.

That hypothetical telepathic illusionist just had his whole deck shenaniganned by Fixer.

Although I do have to say you make a good point about FF asking for abuse.  You can't just make an arbitrary number of attack on him however, you have to be able to deal damage to a non-hero target to trigger it so you would be limited by the number of times you can hit non-heroes.

Stricktly from theme it does seem to make sense that FF would only be once per turn.  When Tempest uses Squall Setback should be in the way once, not once per target hit.  I don't like how it restricts characters like KNYFE but I'm ok with this change.

Aww, now you're making me feel bad...

Not that my opinion is valuable at all, I just mean to support those that suggested this as a good fix to the problem of FF.

Also, I disagree with it being once per turn. It's just not good enough to be limited like that. maybe if it were 1 damage for 2 tokens, or 2 damage for 3 tokens, but as a 1-1 trade, I don't feel like it should be nerfed. If it must be changed, make it so Setback is the source of the damage.

Uh, plenty of Villains have been published that have those kind of effects. Plague Rat, Osiris, Miss Information, Evolved Madman Baron Blade, Fright Train, and that's off the top of my head. The fact that Mr. Fixer (and Dr. Medico) can use shenanigans against some of them is no worse than, say, the shenanigans that The Visionary can get up to when rendered unable to deal damage by Ensnaring Brambles, or that Fanatic can get up to against The Matriarch. It's only when you put those effects in a Hero deck that you have to watch out, and even then they may be fine in moderation.

Setback is one of "those" Characters.

He's doing new things, he lets you choose to go against convention and do things you really never would do otherwise.

So yes, he's all about shenanigans.

It is little wonder that he causes mischief with card interactions.  That's just how he rolls.

I actually prefer adding the "damage dealt this way cannot trigger Friendly Fire," but that wording is more likely to lead to confusion than having setback deal the damage.

You can still wrong place wrong time the damage, and then use friendly fire on that damage.

If you had a -1 damage taken you could still gain a token.

Hero Lady deals bad guy 2 melee damage, trigger Friendly Fire.

Setback deals setback 2-1 damage, but discards 1 token (Wrong Place Wrong Time) to redirect to Bad Guy, trigger Friendly fire, take 1 add 2 tokens.

Not broken at all, just a neat option.

yeah, and now Wrong Time and Place is only once per turn, so it can't be infinite-comboed.

Instead of changing chard wordings, the ruling can very simply say that 'Also' means that it is part of the same instance of damage.

So Jackhandle would do its damage to all targets, and at the same time hit Setback. Its still one original source of multi targeted damage, and does not trigger anything new.

No need for errata. Just a clarification that also means that its part of the same instance of damage - this instance of damage being a group of little ones, but they are not triggering a loop.

Think of it this way.

the word 'Also' is a tie to the damage. It will metaspace change  Jackhandle to read 'Whenever Mr Fixer would deal damage to a target, he deals that much damage to all non-hero targets and may deal Setback  2 damage for each one per the rules on Friendly Fire'

Thats the intent obviously, and how I read it. 

Otherwise Jackhandle loops itself if you think about it the other way.

Because it reads 'Whenever Mr Fixer would deal damage' - so he just did damage to 12 minions. Well thats whenever, so he hits them all 12 more times. Oh look thats 12 more instances of 12 more times so .... yeah.

I think that having Setback be the source of the damage has an unwanted effect - it's not a big thing, but Friendly Fire is very interesting when fighting Kismet. On her normal side, a hero who does 4+ damage to another hero destroy a jinx.I would not like to lose this incitation to hit Setback very hard :)

Let's see. FF has a cost : Setback takes damage. The problem is that Jack Handle completely circumvents this cost. I don't think either of this card is wrong - but their interaction is certainly a problem....

Just a suggestion for the sake of discussion :

Whenever a hero target deals a non-hero target damage, that hero may also deal Setback 2 damage of that type.

If he chooses so, but Setback does not take damage this way, destroy this card.

Whenever Setback is dealt damage this way, add 2 tokens to your unlucky pool.

This way, Fixer can use this card to feed Jack Handle - but at the cost of the card and no tokens for Setback. It allows the abuse, but limits it and gives it a cost Setback may not want to pay... And maybe not thematic.

Of course it is probably too complicated, and not really a solution, I propose this for the sake of brainstorming and exploration.

Edit : I like lynkfox idea. "Also" meaning "as part of their attack" with a rule that says that a given "attack" must be fully resolved before being used again ?

On the subject of Fixer's Jack Handle and thematics I have an argument.  I don't know if it's terribly well done, and it's a bit of an apologist argument, but I figure it's worth sharing.

What if the Handle is a focus for Fixer?  What if it allows him to send his mind to a zen mindscape of sorts that allows him to channel self-destruction into sweeping strikes against the enemy?  Poison coursing through his veins?  He utilizes the boosted adrenaline to expand his attack patterns and deals with the repurcussions at another time.  Mental trauma brought on by innocents suffering?  He's too focused to be shaken by villainous deeds and cognitive dissonance.  Pontificating villains trying to cause a ringing in his ears?  He only hears a firm but comforting breeze and birds chirping while practicing his stances in a serene field.  Maybe it was the tool that started his interest in martial arts, auto repair, or both.  Perhaps it was a gift from a beloved family member, sensei, or student (maybe even The Operative, herself).  It could even be the weapon he is most familiar with due to his blindness (wider range of attack?  Testing the field?  I'm really grasping here!).  But when he shifts to another tool he's back in the battle, the zen mindscape is gone, and he is left to suffer whatever consequences come with it.

Or maybe it's magic.  I dunno.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSf9aEETnvE

Yes clearly, and every time it happens it flys in the face of theme and general mechanics so either just ingnore Jack Handle and design something you know it will shenanigan anyway or design around it.  Clearly they went with the first.  I think most because its just easier to not worry about it.  With Dr. Medico was really surprised because I would have thought the lesson learned.  I really think the idea is "Yeah its broken but not enough of a problem to fix."

With Visionary I'm not sure what you mean unless you mean she doesn't take damage from Wrest the Mind or Brain Burn.  Great, she avoided one thing of damage IF brambles get her at least she didn't turn it into damage to everything else.  Thematically its bad in that Brambles shouln't prevent psychic damage, but I can think of an idea to get around that like since she can't move anyway she isn't thinking about dodging or running and can conentrate on mind control with less strain, whatever.  I have more trouble thinking that Fixer is syphoning toxins out of his body and throwing it at bad guys via a metal stick.  Also Brain Burn is a one shot where again she would avoid damage.

I don't even know what you mean with Fanatic and Matriarch.

Ok Reckless, I'll buy that.  In fact I was thinking if they wanted to be a defensive card why not make an ongoing that says something like "Whenever Fixer would deal himself or another hero damage, negate that damage" and call it purfect body/perfect mind or some thing like that.  Maybe that card wasn't good enough on its own.

Really most of my problems with it went out the window when it I found out it was SUPPOSED to be used to negate self damage like that.  MIND BLOWN!  I went from thinking it was a rules lawyer's dream and a mechanics designer's nightmare to thinking it is just a thematic nightmare which at least doesn't get in the way of future development.  I guess I can use your description here to force smash some theme into it.

"Or its magic."  Didn't we decide that it was passed down to him from the great Master Jack Handle?  Seems like its probably magical.

Man if we ever see a Master Jack Handle promo card, even as a joke, its power needs to invovle doing damage to itself.

Edit:

With my previous assumption that its intent was supposed make his attacks AOE I guess they could have said "Whenever Mr. Fixer uses Strike or Charge…"  That would have solved a lot.

As it is with my new understanding of its intent to protect and redirect self damage I now see in my mind a magical artifact passed down from master to pupil for generations.  When Fixer picks it up he bangs it on the ground and it begins humming and vibrating like a tuning fork.  It becomes almost alive in his hands filling him with with focus and creating harmony within his body and spirit.

I no longer have issues with the card, its mechanics or its theme, I am as Zen as Mr. Fixer holding his magical jack handle.

In the actual game I played, I redirected an entire exploding Explosive Wagon without The Visionary taking the 32 damage doing that would cause her. Oh, and I also kept a pet Living Rockslide around for ages as well.

End of Days comboes with The Matriarch like it comboes with Bee Bot.

I always like Visionary with both TtE and a WtM out and preferably a Demoralization, then you shut yourself up in a cocoon and watch the world burn.

I've probably played Vis 30 times, and only pulled this off once, vs. Chairman, it was glorious.  The Hitman killed everything that wasn't the Chairman or a hero.

Hey Lynkfox, I really like the way you presented this argument. I totally agree with you on what the intent for the card is. This is the least messy way to think about it, even if it does get a little meta. This is the way I will play it from here on out.

Yeah, but every single time Fixer avoids damage by Jack Handle I THOUGHT it was CONTRARY to the PURPOSE of the card. Mechanically it was doing what it wasn't supposed to do where as in both of your examples at least Wrest is doing what it is supposed to do.

I have since been correct about what the purpose of the card is so I'll post this a second time:

Now thematically mind controlling a wagon doesn't make sense because of course the wagon doesn't have a mind, I can't say to much about it. With  lthe Living rockslide at least Visionary was mind controlling it (EXACTLY what the story of that card is) she just didn't get hurt by it so there is really no thematic issue.

However ANY time Fixer uses jack handle to not take self damage its makes no thematic sense. Not only does he avoid the damage but somehow turn it around into an AOE attack.  Not everything has to be thematic, but I would say thats one of the reasons I didn't realize avoiding self damage was the intent of the card.  Avoiding self damage doesn't fit with the description at all.

The only really problem now is "Why would he use any other weapon?" I can't help but think any time I pull a pipe wrench I'm going to think, oh, this is literally just a pipe wrench.  UNLESS!  Can his entire tool set be magical?  Street level hero my *** no one knew it but he's been sitting on a whole tool set of magical artifacts this entire time!

Jack Handle is awesome once you incap Fright Train.  

They're not magical. It's clear what he really is.

He knows martial arts. That's  Venusian Aikido for the uninitiated

He uses tools but eschews a screwdriver now.

He can draw infinite cards with his tool box, it must be bigger on the inside.

He came back to life. Number 10 used up a regen and stayed the same

Well it's not really magic. The tools are actually special Chi weapons. When someone channels their Chi energy into these tools, they unlock special properties. As it has been discussed, the Jack Handle allows Fixer to harm only enemies. The Pipe Wrench gives a protective Aura. When Dual Crowbars causes harm to a target, a second target also feels the pain. The Hoist Chain drains the will to fight. Lastly, the Tire Iron instantly vanquishes weak fows.

Well, thematically, I see Mr Fixer with his Jack Handle entering an heightened "mastery over himself" state : he is so enthralled in his combat trance that anything that would hurt him or "control" him to hurt a friend fuels a cold rage he uses to run from ennemy to ennemy and punish his opponents. But it would have made more sense for something like this to be a Style rather than a tool. Anyway, it has become one of Fixer's bag of tricks - intended or not, it's a good tool to have for a hero who is seen by many (not me) as lacking.

Chinese Medicine, the Answer to this thread is Chinese Medicine.

Yes, I agree special Chi weapons fixes my thematic issue.  Like I said mostly I didn't think it was intended to actually protect him from harm.  All my cries of Shenanigans were not so much about crazy combos (which I love and encourage) as much as cards being used in ways that they were not intended (which I thought was the case with him avoiding self damage). 

So when Visionary mind control's a wagon she is redirecting damage, which is what the whole purpose of the card is.  If you can work out some crazy combo to avoid the damage that is great, I have no problem with combos. 

Again, my problem have a problem with cards being used to do things that they are not supposed to do.  The revelation that Jack Handle wasn't meant to just be an aoe attack but was actually meant to be an anti-self damage effect means that I no longer have said problem with the mechanics of it.

All of this to say "I'm sorry, you were right.  I didn't know that was part of the design philosophy."

From what I understand Visionary has telekinesis and telepathy. Wrest the Mind is intended to represent both of those effects, if I remember correctly.

I get your frustration, though. My explanation was developed purely so I could get past my own confusion about Jack Handle!

Yeah, I never considered them more than mundane, not even as a Chi focus.  I figured pipe wrench gave defense because it is small and light and easy to parry with.  I figured crowbars gave a second attack, because he is dual weilding.  I figured tire iron is projectile and destroys low hp things becaue he throws it and gets a head shot.  I figured hoist chain reduces attack because he tangles them up.  I figured jack handle gave a wide aoe because he weilds it like a bo staff swinging it in a wide arc (like in the artwork).  I couldn't figure how a mundane mechanics tool prevented him from being poisoned or hexed (whatever kismets things are called) which is why I thought the fact that it did those things was unintentional.

Officially, it has never been said that the tools have anything to do with Chi, but it would be perfectly reasonable that they are. Though they could also be mundane tools, but in the hands of Mr. Fixer and his mastery of martial arts, he could use his chi to produce various effects. We already know he is quite capable of using Chi for his Styles, not really a stretch to think when using his tools he uses Chi as well.

We are talking about a blind martial artist, he probably is constantly in use of Chi.

Well especially now that he is blind and resurected.  I don't think he was blind when orignally released but your statement is still valid.  Like Trees said (and you less directly), it might have been more consistent to put such an ability on a Style rather than a Tool but its not that important I guess.

I don't know, I like the "Mr Fixer is a Time Lord" theory better...

Oh no, I would never say Jack Handle's ability should of been a style, because that would lead to Jack Handle + Dual Crowbars, which is very devastating. And Hoist Chain, as all non-hero targets would reduce their damage by 1. Jack Handle is far less insane as a tool than it would be as a Style.

And he was actually blind when he was originally released.

I can't help but wonder if when Christopher said "blind" he meant it literally or figuratively. It probably is literal, but the figurative fits too in some cases.

Oh, two thoughts.

Harmony is how he sees the world even though he is blind, it is the only artwork of his I feel we see from his perspective.

We never have figured out when Fixer stopped being "Black Fist". Maybe he was "Black Fist", got blinded, ran a school, lost students, stopped teaching, then became Fixer

I'm throwing this in the house of speculation.

Of course, I just meant the self protection (possibly Chi based) portion being more style than tool.

That would be Driving Mantis.

Apologies for bursting a bubble, but I believe Christopher has stated he has always been blind.

(Now, knowing Christopher, he probably said, "Mr. Fixer's always been blind," which still fits your theory from a certain point of view…)

He said something to that effect, but he said "Is he?  Well-you know what?  I'm feeling generous.  Yes.  He is blind.  Fixer has always been blind."

I could be misremembering, and I'm sure some of those words weren't quite put together that way, but "generous" was definitely used.  I don't think he was playing around with language.

…

Or was he?

"Help me, Obi-Wan. You're my only hope."

Dont trust the man with the beard. Even if at some point he doesn't have a beard.

I'm glad someone got that…

glad it helped.

…so don't trust Ra?

Corporeal reincarnations of ancient gods with only one nipple are not to be trusted.

Definitely not.

I offer you as evidence the fact that my boyfriend is currently rocking some Breaking Bad style facial hair (not at all inspired by it, but since he actually looks a bit like that guy the resemblance is often commented on). It would be foolish to trust such a person. 

Is he missing a nipple?

I just asked him and he checked and say no, he seems to have the requisite three. 

Does he have a golden gun to go with the third?

No. He says he does have a gun, and it's black.

Apparently, he has two. 

No Comment.

Just checked out the legality of said guns. Apparently, he's okay. 

I don't think the Jackhandle, Friendly Fire combo is broken. If Fixer hits Setback, it's an extension of the attack he's already doing to the non villain targets. It's not a seperate attack, but just a modification of the one made on the villain targets. Setback doesn't take the full damage from attacks because he wasn't the main target, he was just sort of in the wrong place and ended up taking some damage. So I don't think Jack Handle and Friendly Fire should go in an infinite loop.

No.  Dual Crowbars is two instances of damage.  If you use Dual Crowbars and Jackhandle together everything gets hit twice.

I don't see how Friendly Fire would be any different.

Dual Crowbars is two seperate attacks hitting two different targets. Jackhandle hits all nonvillain targets, Setback gets too close to the action somehow and takes some of the damage as well. He's not getting hit with a seperate attack, it's the same attack. The damage may end up slightly different, but there isn't a seperate attack aimed solely at Setback.

Setback just becomes another "non-hero target" in the swing of things.

Playtesters went through Hell figuring out the wording on that blasted card.  There were a few iterations that had something to that effect printed on it.

I think that is the thematic intent

And then I came up with a wording that actually worked!

Until Mr. Fixer... fixed it.

Well Fixer tends to ba about pulling Rabbits out of his hat to try and make the best of what's in play. I guess this demonstrate that you can't underestimate the effect of putting an 85 year old blind guy that pulls off Mechanics-Fu shennanigans with a carefree happy go lucky guy that pulls off luck and bad luck shennanigans. I'm imagining Fixer creaming pretty much all the villains at once like Neo versus multiple agents smith in the matrix but at the same time tripping on setback but using martial arts to roll in just the right position to keep the jack handle going like it's wielded by a squirrel on speed all the while laughing at all those that keep saying he can't hold his own...

I've revamped my earlier errata attempts!

Change FF from:

"Whenever a Hero Target deals a non-Hero Target damage, that Hero may also deal Setback 2 damage of the same type".

to:

"Whenever a Hero Target deals a non-Hero Target damage, that Hero may also deal Setback 2 of the same damage".

What do you guys think?  Is it too ambigous?

Although it doesn't solve the Bot + WtM combo...

How 'bout:

""Whenever a Hero Target deals a non-Hero Target damage, that Hero may also deal Setback 2 damage of the same type.  Damage dealt this way cannot be redirected or replaced."

A bit of a bigger change, but introducing the "cannot be replaced" wording solves all future Jack Handle problems.  You just stick the wording on any card you don't want to be nullified by Jack Handle.

This has all been crazy informative to read, but I do hope you realize that I now have the mental image of Setback bumbling into the path of one of Mr. Fixer's graceful martial arts attacks and then being beaten senseless by the cranky old man for interupting him when he was in a groove.

"Stupid kid, you made me look bad!"

I had this situation come up during a game. I browse through this thread, seems like there is no official ruling, or is there?

There is no official ruling on this particular situation.

There is official word that infinite loops are not a thing, so I would go with the "Forum Concensus" that setback gets added into the jack handle attack and friendly fire does not count as a seperate attack.

That would also mean you can't beat on Setback all day with dual crowbars (hitting two targets, then Setback+1, using that second target to re-trigger dual crowbars).

Really? What have I missed?

I could be wrong, but there were some situations that could create infinite loops with redirections, and the answer was that things like that only trigger once.

There was the issue of whether smoke bombs would infinitely reduce damage. As I recall, the answer was that while you can redirect infinitely, the reduction only happens once.

This is my understanding as well.

I was basing it on your opinion. 

While humorous, my opinion then is out of date.

Curious to see how the logic on these 2 cards plays out in the video game.  Will it cause an endless loop until you win the game?

I think the video game is going to be - effectively - the enhanced edition cardset. No Jack Handles or Friendly Fire allowed.

Expansions will be released. So Jack Handle and Friendly Fire will eventually make it's way there.

Well, I'm (obviously) new, and pretty late to the game, considering how much of a necro post this is, but, considering how there doesn't seem to have been a definitive resolution on this, I thought I'd add in my two cents.

Frankly, the answer is staring us right in the face, simply based on how Dual Crowbars and Jack Handle actually work.

Strictly written, there's nothing saying that Jack Handle and Dual Crowbars wouldn't trigger on themselves ad infinitum. Jack Handle would react to each instance of it applying damage, turning Mr. Fixer into a zen Koan in which he hits all non-heroes for an infinite amount of damage, and yet never so much as crushes a tumbleweed. Dual Crowbars, on the other hand, would turn into an infinitely escalating frenzy of Half-Life-style violence until there is only one man standing.

It's obvious to everyone (I hope) that that's not how they're supposed to work. What then? The answer, of course, is typed damage.

On the one hand, we have the elements, which is the normal definition of type. On the other, though, we have the "special" types, such as irreducible. Mr. Fixer works on that basis, then. Jack Handle and Crowbars trigger not when Mr. Fixer deal any damage; only when they deal non-Jack Handle/Crowbar damage. Something to the effect of:

When Mr. Fixer would deal non-Jack Handle damage to a target, he instead deals that amount and type of Jack Handle damage to all non-hero targets.

When Mr. Fixer deals non-Dual Crowbar damage to a target, he deals that amount and type of Dual Crowbar damage to another target.

With that simple, implicit, commonsense fix, Friendly Fire works exactly as intended, without any need for rewording:

Mr. Fixer hits a target while using Jack Handle. Jack handle repalces his initial hit with Jack Handle damage of the same amount and type to all non-hero targets. Setback can use friendly fire to also take 2 Jack Handle damage (for each hit, no less).

Mr. Fixer hits a non-hero target while using Dual Crowbars. Setback can use friendly fire to also take 2 damage. Mr. Fixer's hit against the initial target and his hit against setback each trigger Dual Crowbars. But Setback using friendly fire on either of the crowbar reactions won't trigger the crowbars again. A little shennaniganey, but a face full of crowbar earns a little shennanigans, in my book.

Oh, crud. Why didn’t anyone put this to Christopher in the AMA?