Another Spite Question...

One thing that has come up both times we played Spite, and I am not sure of hte he exact rules for...

if spite has his drug out that causes him to damage a hero when they use a power, and the hero uses a power like Wraith's Stunbolt or Chrono Ranger's neurotoxin dart launcher that decreases the amount of damage a target that is attacked by this power can do, would Spite's drug cause him to deal full or reduced damage?

to put it more plainly, does Spite deal the damage as soon as the power usage is announced, or does it happen after the power has fully resolved itself?

I'm 90% confident the answer is after resolution. That's how it's been handled at all the BGG play by forum games.

A power is only considered "used" after the power has fully resolved.

In this case, Wraiths stun bolts would totally resolve before Spite's drug deals you damage for the power use

Thanks for the answer guys that is how my brother had suggested we play it, I guess I was just over thinking it since I play too much Magic The Gathering, whose timing, trigger, and stack rules can drive you insane if you aren't careful.

Also due to the player's choice ruling responses to cards being played can occur before or after you resolve the card text at your decision.  (It used to happen before, due to the timing the cards entered play, but now it is players choice, so things can get interesting)

For example Tome of the Unknowable is out and Ra plays Fire Blast, you can let Fire Blast resolve before the Tome can respond to the card play, and Blast can get rid of tome so it can't respond.

Really? When was that ruled? I don't remember that - we've been sticking to the "effects on a card play interrupt the played card before its text activates". If the ruling got changed to "you can decide when the played-card effect takes place", stuff like the Informant will suddnely become much easier to deal with...

Here is the announcement of the rule change.

With the old ruling by order cards entered play response triggers and card text were tiggered simultaneously when the card entered play.

Since it was simultaneous the order of resolution was determined by order the cards entered play, which meant the newly played card went last.

Now that order is up to the players.  If you want to keep it the old way (my group does) that is your decision.  But if you want you could let the newly played card go first, or even decide each time in the way that will benefit you most.

I understand the need for this ruling, and pushed for it, but I liked the interaction before the rule change, so we've kept it timed that way, now because we want to instead of because it is the proper way to play.

There is a difference between "consecutive effects" and "simultaneous effects". Consecutive effects happen as you see them. Resolve from newest to oldest. Simultaneous effects, outside of Start/End turn actions, are relegated to resolve in the order of players choosing as of the new Order of Operations.

Ohhhh...I knew about that ruling (I was even sat right next to Christopher when he told some of us about it at the meet in Leisure Games, London, last October before the ruing was posted on the forum), but I just thought it was for the effects of ongoings and stuff interacting with each other (like Fortitude and Superhuman Durability and all that). I never thought of it affecting actions that occur when cards are played or powers used or whatever because I thought that the "when a card is played, do X" thing was an interrupt, not a simultaneous effect, while the "when someone uses a power, do X" was more of a reaction.

I'll have to remember this in future games, then! :)

Before the ruling, 90% of forum rules debates were centered around how to properly resolve simultaneous effects timing wise, especially when you could have multiple effects triggering at once.

The Spite/Powers question from the OP really does not fall under the Order of Operations ruling however. This is something that was confirmed a long time ago with the Toxic Seaweed ruling from Atlantis, as it functions exactly like Spites power drug.

Tome of the Unknowable responds to card draws, not plays.

So…taking the Informant as an example, she lets the Chairman play a card when you do. You play a card but decide "Okay, I'll play the villain card and resolve that after the text on my card is done"…but you're Omni-10 and you just played Reset, and proceed to play a couple more copies of it. Reset isn't considered resolved until the card that played off it is resolved, so would it go Reset -> Reset -> Reset, then the third Reset is done so the Chairman plays a card, then the second Reset goes to the trash so Chairman plays a second card, and finally you've rattled back along the chain to the first Reset (which goes into the trash as well at this point) and the Chairman plays a third card? And does the Chairman playing a card happen before or after the played card hits the trash (I'm not sure this would matter, but…)?

I'm not sure why you'd want to play that many cards when the Informant was out…but then, your play off the third Reset could be Disruptive Flechettes, and if you have any damage buffs then the Informant would be taken out before having a chance to do anything. Which would be nice :).

I think the option there is yours. It would certainly be a risk, but the option of choosing how to resolve it presents players with an interesting risk/reward senario there. 

It's worth noting that there was a ruling some time ago...if you play a card that kills the Informant, she doesn't play a card as a result because she's dead.  So if Omni goes Reset - Reset - Reset - Reset - Singularity for 2, the Informant is fried before she can get around to calling in five tips to her boss.

The Informant has 3hp, not 2hp (that's the Thief), hence my mention of Omni-10 needing some kind of damage buff in order to nuke her :).

I'm pretty sure my Informants also say 2 HP...maybe something changed between printings?  Regardless, Singularity can still do it, you might just need to destroy one more equipment.

So does this also mean that if Iron Legacy has Vigalience in play, he does not deal damage to a hero who plays a card that destoryed vigilance?

Its your choice. Maybe you want that damage dealt? For simultaneous effects, its left to player choice 

Similar rulings have been issued with regard to Sudden Shopping Trip and Negative Energy Field.  Resolve the card play fully, then look for triggers.  The OoO ruling shouldn't apply.  I believe it works the same way for powers.  The issue is that sometimes resolving something fully can take an awful long time (true of card plays, and of powers that put a card into play, such as Timeshift).  The stack has to completely clear before anything can happen as a result of the first stacked event...things that happen in response to the second stacked effect will stack themselves in place of that effect as soon as it's cleared.

Thats why there is a difference between "Consecutive Effects" and "Simultaneous Effects". Its a much simpler way to describe it.

I contend that it is impossible for any but the simplest effects (and questionably even those) to be "simultaneous".  Certainly not a card play, nor even damage type changing.  And there can be issues even with damage adjustment, as with my recent question on Twist the Ether vs. Cramped Quarters Combat.

"Simple" has nothing to due with being "simultaneous"

Multiple effects that change damage type (lets say the +1 vats from Pike Industrial that turn damage Toxic and Ra's Imbued Fire) are absolutely considered simultaneous, so you are very wrong on that count. 

Playing a one shot triggers the effects on the card. There are other effects in the game that trigger upon playing a card. Because they have common triggers, the effects nessesarily are simultaneous.

Does that make sense?

If they were "simultaneous", then each one would constantly overwrite the other and the game would freeze.  They must be consecutive, so that one can trump the other.  If you roll them into the OoO ruling, it makes it possible to declare either one as "high trump", which does reduce the bookkeeping of which one was in play first, and that's what the OoO ruling was about).  But they cannot possibly be "simultaneous", any more than two different answers to "Which day of the week is it" can both be correct (given that the answer is the name of a day, and not something cutesy like "Tomorrow" or "hump day").

No dude, thats why the Order of Operations rule is in place. Players choose how those effects resolve.

Edit:Everything else you wrote is nonsensical so I wont address it.

See my edit above.

They are triggered simultaneously, and the rules state that when two effects would try to be simultaneous they aren't.

So yes, nothing is simultaneous, but when they would try to be you resolve them in an order determined by the rules, which in this case would be player choice.