So, the real question is.....do those of us at the launch party WAIT to post rules question until others have received their copies? OR should we start asking questions right away, to confuse, confound, and make jealous those that are still waiting?
both
I have actually been considering this for quite awhile. Vengeance will be released in waves, which is going to give different people, thourhg no fault of their own, knowledge of the game at different times. Therefore, I don't think it's a good idea for people to randomly mention diffrent things before most people had a chance to get the game. There are many people who like to be surprised, and they shouldn't have to avoid this site, just because of the way the game is ebing released.
As we get closer, I was going to create 2 threads. One for general stuff, and another for rules. I thought it would be a great idea to limit all discussion of Vengeance in these forums, to just those thread. This way, people can still enjoy the community, without having to worry about spoilers. If they want to be spoiled, they can read those threads, but it should be there option.
If GtG is onboard with the idea, I (or anyone else) will create those threads with topics that warn about the spoilers.
Meh.
Things are already released in "waves", I did not get Shattered Timelines until several months after release and choose to read some threads and not others until I did have it. So long as the thread titles aren't as generic as "Some questions" it would be clear what it refers to.
I’m game for as many spoilers as you guys can throw at me!
My suggestion would be to either have a special "vengeance information may only be in here" sub-forum, or just that people should title their threads with a "Vengeance Spoilers" tag. The former requires the action of the administrators, while the latter requires the consistent and conscientious action of the entire forum populace. It is debatable which of these is preferable, though I know which one I consider more reasonable and realistic.
Great idea, but how often have threads stayed on topic here? WIthout some rules, they can/will pop up anywhere, and that is all I am seeking. I place to make sure that if you don't want the info, don't go there. I am not suggesting something long term, just until the pre-orders are shipped.
It sucks that I can't be there, but seriously, don't wait to get answers on my account. After the release party the game is live. Just make sure your thread clearly states Vengeance question and people who don't want to know can avoid them till they aquire their copy.
That is my thoguht on the issue.
I wasn't suggesting that people don't get answers. I was only suggesting that we keep everything Vengeance related in a single area or clearly labeled. I think the former is much easier to implement than the latter, hence why I suggested it.
I know what's in Vengeance. This means nothing to me. I just was trying to make a suggesting so that it wasn't ruined for other people. My bad. I will keep these ideas to myself from now on.
I will point out that Boardgamegeek has separate areas for each expansion, rarely are they used, with all questions going in the main sentinels forum. Trying to make people post in a specific place when talking about a specific thing is doomed to fail, particularly as threads waunder into other topics, (as Pydro points out above), people new to the forums don't know the rules (and I expect an influx with Vengeance being released as a standalone game) or people are just lazy.
Don't keep your ideas to yourself, put them out there, we need to hear the things we haven't considered. But don't take it personally when others point out flaws in your ideas or try to modify them.
Interesting. We beg and beg the game developers to give us clues and previews of the upcoming expansions, and then when the game is released we ask players not to say anything until we get our copies...
I fully encourage the use of spoiler tags in subject lines during the release period. That seems like a noble idea. The reality is that it wont always happen. And the other reality is if you are coming to the forums during that time really not wanting to see spoilers, maybe the forum isn't the best place to be. Would you walk into a dive bar only to throw a fit when you see a drunk guy passed out at the bar?
Spoilers: Tag your stuff. Not because you have to. Because its common courtesy.
Spoil-Free'ers: Manage Expectations
Spoil Sports: Bugger off
I don't mind modifications, my whole point was that this should be something that should be discussed and encouraged, not to simlpy rely on people to put the right thing in the title. This wasn't mentioned yet, and I think the issue is important. Based on the responses here, if I didn't know what was in Vengeance, I wouldn't come to this forum from February 1 until I got my copy. Of course, that is just my opinion.
We beg and beg the game developers to give us clues and previews of the upcoming expansions, and then when the game is released we ask players not to say anything until we get our copies...
I kind of agree. Why not let people jabber about the exciting upcoming product? Because some people don't have it yet? Lots of people won't be buying it immediately, so even a year after it's fully available the problem would be the same. Seems to me, once the product has been sent to the printer, it's out of beta. Time to lift the beta/playtesting NDA and let people tell the world the glorious news about what's coming.
Better yet would be for >G to do an info offensive as soon as the product goes to the printer so that they controlled the flow of exciting new info in the lead-up to release, but that seems to be either too time consuming or not interesting enough to them to do.
Yeah, because there isn't any correlation at all to blabbing all you know about a movie or book just released...
Sure, there's a correlation, but a card game isn't a movie or a book. If someone says "omigod, NewGuyHero has this one card that does XYZ, wihch makes him wicked vs. SuperHardVillainMan", is that the same thing as knowing that Bruce Willis was dead the whole time (sorry, spoiler) which is the lynchpin of the entire movie? I would argue that any info you hear before packages appears on doorsteps is just going to get people pumped about getting their hands on NewGuyHero, not ruin your enjoyment of the game.
I mean, what is there to spoil? We know what the heroes are, we know what the villains are, we have a general idea of how Vengeance changes the gameplay. Does it really matter if we know what the text is on any particular new card? How would this be any different than for people who have to wait to get Vengeance until next X-mas because they don't have the money for it now? They're going to be bombarded with spoilers all year, but that's different and OK I guess?
You under estimate just how much people love to complain about things.
!
So. Much.
In previous releases flavour text has been far more important to me than the abilities of the cards themselves; watching the evolving story is one of the reason I keep coming back to Sentinels and having someone lay it out before I can look it over… yeah, mega pissed.
So then, discussions about fun new card interactions or rules debates about new rules is cool as long as people don't quote flavor text?
No, that's just my example of something that I would not want spoiled, your mileage may vary.
What if your package is delayed in the mail, or you're too busy at work to open it for a couple of days? Should we wait for you? ;)
Not a chance of that happening. I'm going to go live in the wilds until I can get my hands on a copy, only then will I return!
lol. :)
I don't know what mechanically needs doing to make such a thing possible, but if this forum could have the ability to add spoiler tags (with <spoiler> text you want hidden </spoiler>), so that if you have anything to say that some people might not want to see (for whatever reason), just put the spoiler tags around it and it'll be blacked out for readers until they click on it to reveal what it says :).
Personally, living in the UK, I fully expect to get my package later than those over in the US, in which case I also expect to see plenty of chat about the new content as soon as people start receiving it and before I've received mine. Even if I wasn't already familiar with the upcoming cards, I wouldn't mind seeing people talking about them - I tend to skim over detailed mechanical discussions if I don't know what's being talked about, but to see mention of the fluff and stuff tends to make me go "ooh, that person sounds cool, I want to play them" and so on :).
Curse you spoilers!
Personally, living in the UK, I fully expect to get my package later than those over in the US, in which case I also expect to see plenty of chat about the new content as soon as people start receiving it and before I've received mine.
Sorry, but it's a dog-eat-dog world. People seem to be willing to throttle spoilers until they receive their packages, but everyone else who gets theirs later is on their own. Welcome to the Thunderdome.
Is the world more awesome or less awesome after that post?
I'll just start deleting every post I see with anything that could possibly be construed as spoilery in any way.
(I'm not going to do that.)
So you're going to delete all of your own posts? :p
Is the world more awesome or less awesome after that post?
Who doesn't think Thunderdomes are awesome?
(answer: people inside Thunderdomes ;)
btw. as soon as i get my copy (or someone says they got theirs, as i have playtester access) the wiki is getting major updates. major.
so. deal with it 
(by possibly resisting going to the wiki)
I have never been to your wiki, so there. 
Y'know, if you got me a copy of Vengeance on release day, I could help you with all that Wiki updating…
…please? Pretty please? I don't want to have to wait on my FLGS!
Hopefully with a group photo. Or at least a photo of me on the main page.
Errrm…Spiff, I think you may have misunderstood my post - I wasn't complaining about the fact that I know I'm gonna see "spoilers" on here before I get my package, just acknowledging that I am fully expecting that everyone will be excitedly posting many things on here as soon as they finally have physical access to the cards and can see what's there. If I didn't want to see any info on the new cards, I would just avoid anything that looked like it was goign to talk about them. As it is, I'm not fussed, nor would I be if I hadn't yet seen any of them. I was just saying how, as I live in a location which means I'll be getting my package later than the majority of other people, I am aware of the fact that no-one is gonna wait for everyone to receive their stuff before they try talking about it. That would just be silly. I was suggesting the addition of spoiler tags for those people who don't want to know what the expansion content is before they can physically look at it themselves.
As a pre-order waiter, I'll likely be a few weeks behind everyone at the launch party. As much as I'd like the forums to stay spoiler free, I know a lot of people will be incredibly excited to discuss Vengeance and I wouldn't want to spoil their fun.
I say until Vengeance is officially in FLGS's (mid-latish Feb, I'm guessing) posts should be diligent about marking Spoilers very clearly. I know me and plenty of others would appreciate the discretion and not be forced to stay away from a forum I love and visit daily.
But I say after it hits retailers, game on!
I honestly think this is the only realistic approach to the whole thing.
if im right about shipping dates you may have yours around the same time as the release party… otherwise the warehouse would be full of vengeance pallets…
Nothing will have shipped by the release party, and the warehouse will be full of Vengeance pallets :)
Don't worry though, we've got room for them!
Is the "Party" a way to get free labour? Are they going to play a fun new game called pin the Vengeance in the shipping box?
I approve of sending Ronway to the >G salt mines
Pin the Vengeances in the shipping box? I would so play that!
Ronway doesn't like the >G salt mines
You had best go then, otherwise you'll miss out on all the fun.
>G salt mines are not about what you like, it's about profits for >G so they can make more games, surely that's a worthy sacrifice? Do you think others checked for the secret conversation we are having?
I think the best way to deal with Vengeance spoilers is to keep most of the discussion in forum topics labelled with Vengeance. That way it is easy to manage.
It won't be that long before the kickstarter boxes start arriving, at that time I'd say it is fair game. But the kickstarters who can't get to the release party shouldn't have their noses rubbed in it that they aren't the first people to get the game.
Interesting discussion! Not sure I have anything new to add, but I wanted to organize my thoughts ...
I appreciate the friendliness of limiting discussion about Vengeance to a few threads so it is easier for people to avoid info if they want to, but i'm not for it. More harmful than beneficial, I think. For Vengeance-specific content, having special threads is unnecessary, as the content would have ended up, hopefully, in its own thread with a title that is enough to warn off the spoiler-averse. For non-Vengeance-specific-content, we would be choking off discussions by not allowing Vengeance content to be included.
On a related topic, for major spoilers (like a movie's plot twist), even if the work has been known for centuries, I think it is friendly to avoid or at least tag the spoiler, but what constitutes a major spoiler for this game? Even if we can identify such things, how do we have useful, ongoing discussion if such spoilers aren't allowed? This is a forum for the discussion of Greater Than Games' games. I think it's a reasonable expectation to find all information here about the games, even major spoilers, if there are such things.
I wish I could go, at least there is a G+ game going on at the same time, so I won't miss out on the fun too much.
But if I were to work in the >G Salt Mines, then I wouldn't be able to enjoy the fun products that would make. I think it would be best if we went ahead and abducted a few people and sold them real cheap. I'm not sure if anyone has noticed yet, but I hopefully when someone responds, they do it secretly as well.
Errrm...Spiff, I think you may have misunderstood my post
No, I understood your point. I was just pointing out the contradiction in the prevailing sentiment, which seems to be "no spoilers until I have my cards, then whatever." People who got theirs through the Kickstarter don't want people at the launch party to post about the cards, but they're not worried about people who are a few days them behind because they pre-ordered. And if you're waiting until you can pick up the expac in a store or are overseas, then you'll be dodging spoilers like Neo because people aren't going to wait that long to jabber about the fun new toys, even though they expected others to wait for them.
I agree that keeping all Vengeance-related jabber in topics with spoiler-free titles which are explicitly labeled "Vengeance" is the polite thing to do. But if we're going to do that, then why not let the playtesters do it today?
I was the only one that said to wait for a specific time. I already know the cards, and I didn't say wait. I specifically put the date after the pre-orders are out which should be the same for when they get to stores. I thought this was the most reasonable. I really hate the "if everybody can't it shouldn't eb done approach." And, as Paul said, there is already a boat heading to the UK from China, so they can get it earlier. Yes, I took everything into account, and came up with what I saw as a reasonable time. There should be a cutoff, it's not easy tio make, but it's better than nothing.
To be clear I am not a Vengeance Kickstarter, and I frankly don't care about spoilers myself.
My thought is that people bought Vengeance on Kickstarter witht he idea that they would be getting it before everyone else. GTG and pretty much everything else on Kickstarter have fostered that belief.
As this is the GtG official Site I think we should be respectful of the Kickstarter orders of Vengeance, and be cool about it till they get theirs.
I waited until the second pre-order to buy it. Yet if I didn't ahve a Birthday Party on February 1st that I can't cancel without losing a good chunk of money I would be able to get my copy first.
While I think a release party is awesome, and would love to be there, I think we also need to remember that some people have been waiting in line for a long time, and won't be able to get theirs.
Some kind of reasonable compromise should be able to be done with minimal inconvenience to the excitement of the party attenders.
Having thought more on this I think that there is an additional problem with Vengeance.
Vengeance itself is a standalone game that could be mixed with regular SotM, shouldn't there be a separate forum for it anyway? Questions for one will not always apply to the other.
Who do you recommend they abduct? Who would be a good worker AND not missed on the forums?
How many times does it need to be stated and restated that Vengeance is not a standalone game. One more I suppose.
Any question (rules/narrative/otherwise) that applies to one will obviously apply to the other as it is all part of the same game system.
I disagree. It can be played as a standalone game without any other products. It can also be mixed with other products in the SotM universe but that doesn't make it an expansion, it is perhaps a hybrid of some sort.
Perhaps some kind of Mega-Expansion! It both expands the regular game AND gives a completely new way of playing the game!
What an excellent new term you are using, you should market it as such!
I think a (perhaps temporary) subforum for Vengeance stuff would be a good idea, to make it easier for people who are avoiding spoilers to, well, avoid them.
It could be merged with the main SotM forum/fora once Vengeance is available on general international release, maybe.
Having seen the proofs for Vengeance, I'm aware that there are some things that people who don't have the game might not want to know about until they get their own copy, and people who do have their copies will want to discuss.
There is SOOOOO much to discuss!
I can imagine.... I'm very much looking forward to it.
I can't wait to see all the Vengeance topics about the story. I absolutely love when something gets the forums buzzing again, so much fun checking and seeing a whole wave of new post for me to read.
I have a few people in mind, but it's best not to say, as it could get messy once folks start noticing.
It is a stand-alone Expansion. You do not need the other boxes of content to play the game, but it is not independent of the other., Iit is an expansion, just one with enough heroes to host a game.
A seperate forum would not make sense, because so many of the questions will involve interaction between the heroes and villains and environments of the different expansions.
To make a separate forum or thread for two weeks and then merge them with everything else won’t make sense?
Regardless, this discussion is pointless. Whether a separate thread or spoiler post, any idea would need to be agreed upon by everyone, and clearly people are already opposed to it. If you don’t want to be spoiled, just stay away from here.
Let's get to the heart of the matter, shall we. There are people that don't want the game ruined for them. They want to open taht box and see all of the wonder it contains on their own. Those people are left with a decision, they can leave the community for a days so they get the full impact, or they can stay as part of this community, but have somethings to decide. Is it more important to take about your favorite SotM game, or read the text by yourself. is it more imoprtant to play a forum game, or see all of the art without hints. Is it more important to make friends on here, or keep the flavor text hidden so you can savor every word.
We as a community have two options:
1) We can tell those people we don't care about you. I want to talk about Vengeance, and I don't care what you think. In order to accomidate you, it would be hard work, and nearly impossible to enforce, so why try. I would rather do what I want, then have you as part of the community for the next few weeks.
2) We can come up with a solution, whatever it is. We can tell those people that you are more imporant to us than me spoiling stuff for a few days. We will try to setup separate forums, or try to enforce spoilers tags, something. We can try to put announcements up, on the main page or forum page. Maybe even a pop up. We can try to make sure everyone is onboard. We understand that you are getting the game as quickly as you can, and we will do our best to not ruin it for you. This community as a whole is more important.
Before you pick your option, ask yourself: after your response, will the world be more or less awesome?
I don't recall the whole "omg no spoilers!" thing being such an issue with Shattered Timelines (and wasn't around for the release of the two expansions prior to that). That means either it wasn't (in which case, why the fuss about Vengeance?), or it was and I've forgotten about it (in which case, it can't have been that big an issue or presumably I would remember...I hope, lol).
Agreed. I think we are making a much bigger deal out of this than it is going to be.
It would be very sad if people felt that they had to keep away from the forum for a while to avoid all the unrestrained spoiling.
Personally I haven't decided whether I want to see spoilers or not. I have seen proofs but didn't study all the flavour text, etc, so there's definitely a lot of stuff I've missed or forgotten about that I could enjoy.
Let's give people the option to make their own decisions, okay?
To clarify Foote's a little more...
Vengeance has everything it needs to be played alone, yes, but it is not meant to be, nor is it optimal to do so. It is far better to have the core set at least with vengeance, if nothing else to give you practice runs against easier villains than the Vengful Five, and the fact that some peoples main complaint (waaay to much to keep track off) becomes even more so with vengeance.
It is not, And should not ever be advertised as; a stand alone expansion. Really. They call it a Mega Expansion, which is good name for it. But please. Don't tell people they can start with vengeance if they want - they will /not/ enjoy the game nearly as much as if they started with the Enhanced Edition.
I think you're just seeing what you want to see, because that's not how I read Ameena's comment at all. (Of course, I may be wrong, in which case I hope Ameena will jump in and correct me :P) She's advocating no spoilers, despite having already seen the cards and not really caring about spoilers. Nothing about that is vaguely "no spoilers until I have my cards, then whatever" . In fact, I'm having a little difficulty finding any of that sentiment in this thread…
Why is this a difficult topic? I'm happy to spoiler-tag until the next expansion, if that'll make people happy, because spoiler-tagging is not hard. Really, I can't put it better than Foote did:
I'm not fussed about spoilers. Yes, I've seen the cards and played with them multiple times (due to meeting up on several occasions with a playtester who has print-outs of all the upcoming stuff), but even if I hadn't, I personally don't care about seeing information on decks I don't yet have. I tend to skim-read details mechanical discussions anyway, especially regarding stuff I've not played with yet (eg the posts back in the GSF Kickstarter explaining the rules), since I find it very hard to follow something like that when I've not got it in front of me to actually play and see how it works for myself.
As for storyline spoilers, pretty much everything I know about the storyline I've read on the forum - I don't look too heavily into the card details (artwork, flavour text, etc) except to generally admire the pictures and see what the writing says and stuff. This isn't a book, film, or computer game with an ongoing story that we're all following at the same pace and which might contain a sudden plot twist that people won't want spoiled - that I am not okay with. This is a card game which happens to have a story to it, which is being relased in bits and pieces, many of which had already been released when I first got the game for myself (some time after Infernal Relics had been released) and therefore discussed in much detail, I imagine, here on the forum.
If people don't want to know anything about the new characters and their mechanics and stuff, they can probably just skip forward or ignore a post any time they see a word like "Ermine" or "Setback" or "Naturalist" or whatever - people discussing these characters are going to be using their names after all, right? And I think if there is something that someone doesn't want to see, they are going to have the ability to go "Oh, I don't want to read about that thing yet" and skip past it.
What I was saying in my post was that I (like pretty much everyone else outside the US, Kickstarter backers or otherwise) am likely to receive my copy of the game after those in the US simply due to transport time. I would never expect people to hold off talking about something just because it's gonna take me a bit longer to get my hands on it. After all, what about people who haven't even heard of the game yet at all? Should we hold off talking about anything until everyone in the world has got a copy, or something? Lol, I think this whole thing is getting a bit silly - like I said, I don't recall this much fuss over Shattered Timelines, so what's the difference? All the new characters have their bios on the website, so all we're missing is artwork, fluff quotes, and actual card mechanics. What exactly is it that the "no spoilers" people are worried about having spoiled?
I think you're just seeing what you want to see, because that's not how I read Ameena's comment at all.
I wasn't responding to Ameena's comment. It's clear she's not too worried about spoilers. I was keying off of jagarciao's from earlier:
We beg and beg the game developers to give us clues and previews of the upcoming expansions, and then when the game is released we ask players not to say anything until we get our copies...
In fact, the thrust of my original point was that I thought the idea of spoilers for a card game was a little silly and that as soon as the game went to the printers, it should be open season for commenting. Then Matchstickman said he'd be "mega pissed" if the unfolding story from the flavor text were spoiled for him, although the line for who gets to be saved from spoilers and who's on their own is a little subjective.
I agree with Foote's guidelines too. I just think we should be able to start using them now rather than waiting for the launch party.
Whether you personally think that caring about spoilers is silly or not, some people do and it'd be nice to take their feelings into consideration.
I don't think it's unreasonable to make things easily avoidable until general release, when everyone could possibly get the game if they wanted it.
See, I can do this too. I am also awesome and hidden and awesome. And I approve of the "Ronway in the salt mines" plan.
I agree with Foote and Silverleaf.
The difference between Shattered Timelines and Vengeance is that Shattered Timelines didn't have a release party where people could get an advance copy ahead of others who ordered it sooner under the pretense of getting the game first. I can understand those people not being thrilled with the boards erupting with Vengeance talk before the Kickstarter copies are even shipped.
I don't think it will be very hard if someone is starting a thread about Setback's interaction with the Sentinels to put Vengeance, or Setback, or <spoilers> or something obvious in the title. Not that hard. If a post on a non-Vengeance thread is going to be Spoilerific, just put <SPOILERS> at the top of your post.
That way people can exercise a little discipline and avoid any spoilers if they want.
Well, since paul confirmed there wont be any shipped till the party, and (yay) i am able to pick mine up at the party... the wiki will be updated Sunday Night/Monday when i get home from St Louis *grins*
So ... you ahve at least that long to wait.
Oh.
I am also *sorely* tempted to, friday before I leave, put a bunch of [Redacted] boxes up on the Wiki, where I will be eventually putting links to the new things. *Sorely* tempted.
...
>:D
Personally, this topic got me thinking about it and now I've decided to stop creeping on the forum come february until I have vengeance. It isn't so much that I care about spoilers, but I was thinking about the Darkwatch promos and how cool that setback/expat thing was… except I didn't get it from seeing the cards but seeing people talking about it.
I doubt my "woah" moments would be co-opted by seeing them in threads, but I've decided not to risk it. I want to have my cool discoveries by handling the cards, then spend the next few hours catching back up to the forum discussions.
This is also partially because I know even if people did mark spoilers, the temptation to look would be so strong I'm not sure I'd be able to resist. I'm weak that way 
Considering how fast we seem to get packages here in Indy, would expect mine to be here only a day or so after they are shipped. In fact, back in December when they said they were waiting to ship stuff till the 17th, I think I got my stuff on the 17th and that was an EE box, the RC/IR box, and a Mr. Chomps.
@Koga
Yeah, FedEx Ground is automatically overnight to Indy, but at a way lower price!
I was a playtester, so I probably won't have as many questions as other folks, but I think I'm just going to go with the simple solution of putting "Vengeance" in the title of any Vengeance specific threads I create.
To me, it's a reasonable compromise. People can see the threads and decide individually if they want spoilers or not. It doesn't require a separate forum, and users can read or not read them as they get their copies.