Bunker's Modes Need Reworking

I've been playing SotM regulary for awhile now. Played every hero at least half a dozen times and many of them way, way more than that. Beaten almost every villain on advanced. And I have found a place for every hero in the game; except Bunker. I simply cannot think of a villain or situation where I would actually want to have Bunker on my team when compared to another Hero (Excluding the obvious Ammo Drop/Savage Mana combo. I've simply found Haka of Battle to be a better damage sink 95% of the time over Savage Mana).

I cannont understand what GtG was thinking when they made Bunker's modes so restrictive. He is the ONLY character in the game that can completely shut himself off from playing or drawing cards and freeze his hand/play area (Visionary and NightMist have similar cards but they are given IMMUNITY to damage with them out). I like the idea off specializing to get your setup, or specializing to draw the cards you need, but Recharge Mode and Upgrade mode are almost completely useless because of the heavy restrictions and lackluster bonuses they give. Bunker would be better off just having all of his Upgrade/Recharge Mode cards removed from his deck entirely so he can draw something good instead. Turret Mode is better but still in my opinion far more restrictive than it has any reason to be.

Recharge Mode nets you an extra card draw per turn and a -1 damage reduction, but with your base power you can already draw +1 cards. This means you don't actually net any extra cards until you have come around again and are skipping a second, third, fourth, etc. turn entirely to draw more cards. This makes recharge mode completely awful for card drawing. Auxiliary Power Source is a superior choice in every way for getting more cards, you play it and use the power (essentially skipping your turn for card draw) and net +2 more than you normally would. This makes a one turn skip using Auxiliary Power Source as effective as 3 dead turns in Recharge mode, giving you two extra turns to play cards. Having initialize as a basic power means really the only situation that you would ever want to bother playing recharge mode in is when you have ABSOLUTELY nothing that could even be slightly beneficial to play in your hand (Say 3 Decommisioned Hardwares and a Recharge Mode). Recharge Mode is definetly the worst of the modes and is almost useless.

TL;DR: Recharge Mode is near pointless to play and is only worth bothering with when you have a hand so bad that you cannot play ANYTHING and have no powers in play to use.

Upgrade Mode is only mildy better than Recharge Mode. Not being able to use powers either means A) You cripple your draw while upgrading or B) You cannot do damage while upgrading. But Upgrade Mode let's you get stuff out faster than just playing them one at a time, right? So you should be doing more damage overall, right? Well, no not really all that much. To even think about using upgrade mode you have to have 2 or 3 cards (Which essentially has to include both Flak Cannon and Grenade Launcher at the very least) + Turret Mode in hand to play. Without Turret Mode you waste the extra play on the turn you remove Upgrade Mode on.

Say I have a perfect hand: Upgrade Mode, Turret Mode, Flak Cannon, Gatling/Omni, Grenade Launcher, and Ammo Drop. Let's try playing them with and without Upgrade Mode:

1. Playing them one at a time would take 5 turns assuming you aren't going to use Upgrade mode and Turret Mode, because it prevents you from playing cards and removes Upgrade Mode, must go down last. Here you would want to start with either Flak or Grenade to start the damage going and then place Gatling, Ammo, the other weapon and finally Turret Mode. During these 5 turns you would get to use 6 powers; 4 unbuffed by Turred Mode and 2 with the +1 damage buff and you would start gaining cards from Ammo Drop on either the 2nd or 3rd turn.
2. Let's compare this strategy with using Upgrade Mode to place them. Your 1st turn would be used playing upgrade mode and then Gatling, 2nd would be the Ammo Drop and a weapon, and 3rd would be the final weapon and then Turrent Mode to replace Upgrade Mode. So you got setup fully in 3 turns instead of 5, but you had two essentially dead turns. Adding all the powers you get to use in the first 5 turns using Upgrade Mode and comparing them to what you get without using Upgrade Mode gives you 6 power uses (The same number as when not using Upgrade Mode to place) BUT all of them are buffed with the +1 damage from Turret Mode and you would start gaining cards from your Ammo Drop on your 1st or 2nd turn.

So the benefit of using Upgrade Mode is you gain a slight boost in damage from all of your power uses being boosted instead of only the ones on the tail end of your placement. You also may gain a few extra turns of Gatling/Ammo Drop bonuses. These boons are in exchange for having a few turns where you do not contribute. So Upgrade Mode is only slightly beneficial and ONLY if you have at least both of your weapons and Turret Mode in your hand ready to play. That's kind of sad.

TL;DR: Recharge Mode is a moderate bonus to your damage if you are incredibly lucky and draw the perfect 5 or 6 cards you need to make use of it and if you don't it's not worth bothering with.

*Edit*: Forgot to add that Recharge Mode would be useful in a situation where Bunker is unable to do damage during his turn, but this is still relatively situational and only applicable with a few select environments/villains.

Turret Mode is the mode that will get the most use, but that's not saying much. It's only really useful when you have both weapons out so you can make full use of the +1 damage. With both Flak Cannon and Grenade Launcher out in Turret Mode you do 4, 3, 3, 2 damage. Compare this to Wraith's Micro Targeting Computer, Utility Belt, Razor Ordinance, Throwing Knives combo which is faster and easier to setup because of Impromptu Invetion and STILL does more damage than Bunker's with 5, 3, 3, 3 while Wraith retains the ability to play/draw cards (She also reatains the ability to play, and switch to using, a support power at will  which easily keeps her more flexible).

So we can safely establish that a basic Flak Cannon/Grenade Launcher/Turret Mode setup is rather awful with other heroes being able to easily out-damage it while retaining their flexibility and support/control possibilities. Even with a Gatling Gun out and being fed by Ammo Drop he would only out-damage Wraith's easy to get going damage setup by 1 damage (althoug Bunker would be able to focus it slightly more onto a single target). Omni-Cannon is really only feasible to feed with Ammo Drop out, and even then the flexibility of Haka's Savage Mana/Haka of Battle is superior honestly. It's also much easier to get Haka's Dominion out to get the cards necessary to fuel him because of massive numbers of card drawing one-shots (Which Bunker lacks entirely).

TL;DR: Turret Mode gives Bunker a nice damage boost but he still tends to lag behind damage-wise compared to other heroes AND it locks him down completely from drawing/playing cards so he has no chance to expand his setup once Turret Mode goes down.

How to fix the modes: I feel like there are two ways that would be the easiest fix Bunker's modes. Either: 1) Improve the bonuses they give so that they are useful or 2) Remove the downsides of the modes completely.

1. This would require testing to balanec it, but as starting suggestions make Recharge Mode allow Bunker to draw 2 extra cards instead of 1 and have -2 damage reduction instead of only -1. In Upgrade Mode allow Bunker to place 2 extra cards instead of 1 which would allow him to get setup faster (This is the mode that I would be most willing to leave the same of them all). And in Turret Mode increase Bunker's damage by +3 instead of +1.
2. Simply remove all of the restrictions on playing/drawing/using powers in every mode and otherwise leave them as is. I feel that being able to only have one out at a time is restriction enough on them and this would encourage people to actually use his modes instead of, well, not using them....

Am I alone in thinking that Bunker needs some serious fixing to his modes to be on par with similar heroes? Or am I glaringly missing something awesome about him? Because his damage seems to horribly lag behind other hybrid heroes that have awesome utility even when fully setup while he remains almost a purely damage focused hero that has lackluster damage and poor setup time/ease compared to them.

There is a fantastic, if long, guide to bunker on these forums somewhere. I'd strongly recommend finding it and reading it. I'm sure Pydro has a link handy haha. 

Recharge mode nets you three cards a turn. 2 for skipping play/power and 1 from the mode. Couldn't tell if you knew that or not. 

Also I'd caution directly comparing hero powers/damage. They are not balanced against each other. Each hero is, and must be, balanced within itself. I know why you want to look at Throwing Knives and Grenade launcher, but they are different cards that exist within totally different contexts (or the deck they are found in). If you try and play bunker like wraith, I can see why you'd see the modes as lacking. Likewise, wraith should never be played like bunker either. 

Check out that guide I mentioned. It's a heavy look into how to play Bunker effectively. I know it changed how I look at his cards. 

The Flak Cannon, Grenade Launcher and Turret Mode combination actually requires one less card to use than Wraith's setup because turret mode both increases damage and lets you use an extra power. Bunker's simple setup is actually easier to get and use with the advantage of a global change in damage type not effecting his damage buff. Recharge Mode I'm just fine with for the reasons that Foote stated. If you combine it with Heavy Plating, you can get a damage reduction of 2 and draw three cards. It does exactly what it's supposed to. The only character who can beat that is Nightmist with her Mist Form. Upgrade Mode I agree would be nice with a little less restrictions. Unless you have a lot of cards in your hand that you want to play at once, it's usually better just to do small bits of damage and build up gradually.

The thing with Wraith is that she has Impromptu Invention which more or less allows to get out two equipment cards on her turn, one from your deck and if you have one in your hand then you can pay it as well. She also has more draw capability than Bunker. Grappling Hook and Infrared allow her to draw a free card and Trust Fund allows her to dig more through her deck while getting rid of redundant or momentarily useless cards. The problem isn't Turret Mode's restrictions so much as Wraith just has much better deck manipulation than Bunker does. Of course the points against Bunker by comparing Wraith can also be made with Mr. Fixer and Ex-Patriette.

There are both Pydro's Guide to Bunker and flamethrower's Guide.

He has cards that do things on their own, so you aren't completely crippled while using Recharge Mode.

Try the Gatling Gun/Omni-Cannon/Recharge Mode combo. Free 2 damage at the start of your turn, power up the most potentially powerful attack in the GAME, and draw 3 cards, plus DR1. Then discard a card. Add on Heavy Plating for an extra DR, and Ammo Drop for more cards in hand, and you can safely build up, while dealing consistant damage while you wait for the BOOM to end all booms.

Or, go pure-damage route: Flak Cannon, Grenade Launcher, Gatling Gun, Turret Mode. throw in Ammo Drop to feed Gatling Gun, and he throws around SO MUCH DAMAGE.

Also, he has OTHER CARDS as well, besides his 2 guns and ammo drop. Adhesive foam grenade, Aux. Power unit, Heavy Plating, Omni-Cannon (very very good), External Combustion (great for fueling Ammo Drop), Gatling Gun. Recharge mode helps get you set up fast, and the longer you set up for it the more ground you gain. Sure, it's mediocre if you only use it for 3 turns, but use it for 5 or 6 and you'll REALLY get set up.

I'll admit that I also don't like how the different modes reduce my options (i.e., fun).  Once I enter turret mode, I'm not getting new cards anymore so I'd better be happy with what I've got in play for the rest of the game.  At some point, I'll just get so bored shooting my current set of guns that I'll choose to trash the Mode just so I can start drawing cards again.  The other modes similarly lock you into doing one thing turn after turn, which isn't a ton of fun.  It's one reason I like Future Bunker better - those Mode cards which were reducing my fun before are now increasing my fun by taking out the enemy's Ongoings.

I think one key to my enjoyment of Bunker is looking at the modes as short-term opportunities. I make a point not to consider the modes something that I'll be in for too long - just long enough to use them for what I need at the time, then drop out to do the next useful thing.

McBehrer's example for Recharge Mode is a great one, and is only one example. There are many of them.

But then I find humor in Turret Mode/Heavy Plating/Maintenance Unit/a gun, as Bunker becomes a wonderful tank that can soak a lot of damage while still shooting things…

I have read Bunker guides and I simply cannot see a reason to take him over other similar damage capable heroes like Haka, Wraith, Tempest, or Ra. It is not that I do not LIKE Bunker (I would love to play an awesome Iron Man style hero) but that I feel he is simply underpowered compared to other heroes because of the mediocrity of his modes.

I am aware of him netting 3 cards per turn with Recharge Mode when he skips his turn. But this is only after the intitial turn he plays it on. On the turn he plays it he only nets 2 cards (same as he would normally with Initialize), even though this turn is essentially a dead turn as well.

As for Wraith's combo, yes it does take one less card but I have found that it is much, much easier to get out because of Impromptu Invention/Trust Fund even though it is one more card to play. Even Bunker's basic Flak/Grenade/Turret combo is harder to get out because it relies solely on drawing the correct 3 cards and Bunker has no real digs (for instance draw 4 discard 2, something Wraith has in addition to Impromtu Invention). For Wraith's combo all you need to do is get one of the four cards and Impromptu Invention and bam you have half the setup. And even during the times that you don't have your full setup on Wraith you have very effective control options, while Bunker doesn't. Suffice to say I have had much better luck getting out Wraith's damage cards faster than Bunker's.

Engine of Destruction Bunker does sound better than regular Bunker. The fact that he does is rather sad to me though. His modes will do more good being discarded out of my hand to destroy ongoings then actually being used. They're so bad that he needs SOMETHING to do with them besides just letting them rot in his hand.

You might look at getting a hold of the promo Engine of War Bunker; he loses Initialize, making the extra draw from Recharge Mode seem more attractive, and more to the point his Locomotion power can discard a Mode to destroy an Ongoing card (not always useful, since some villains don't have them, but others have extremely potent ones).

Overall, I think you're oversimplifying.  Bunker is about specialization, building up to an awesome combo.  Recharging for several turns lets you build up to an awesome combo-out while being resistant to damage; Upgrade Mode can play multiple External Combustions for a single big boom or can get you set up with all the weapons you need; Turret Mode is just More Dakka but a very efficient form thereof (especially if you have a Gatling Gun and the cards to power it).  But ultimately, Bunker might just not be your character, just like I'm terrible with Fanatic, but have a buddy who routinely wins games with her.  The great thing about the many characters is that they suit different personalities.

And I think Envisioner's last point is the best: Just because a hero isn't right for us individually - as a player - doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that hero.

You know, a bunch of people hate fixer because he is lackluster in straight up damage output. 

If you want bunker to be a major damage dealer like Ra or Tempest, you are not exactly playing bunker to his strength. His damage is not supposed to keep pace with them (although he certainly is capable). 

Rabits right. Some heros arnt for everyone. Nothing wrong with that. But different heros require different mind sets and play styles. 

If Bunker is not supposed to keep pace with Ra or Tempest in damage, which is the only thing he can do besides Adhesive Foam Grenades (which is pretty underwhelming), then does that not make him objectively worse than either of them?

I can see unique niches that every hero in the game fills. All of them have at least one thing that they are amazing at compared to others. I generally catagorize heroes as a mix of support, control, and damage (Ra for instance is the purest damage in the game, having only 1 support card and it's offensive in nature). Bunker is almost PURELY damage but falls short of other heroes in this category and he seems to have no redeeming features.

Unfourtunetly I am not familiar with Mr. Fixer or Expatriate as I do not own Rook City.

<Edited to remove tags - Rabit>

But Bunker does do more than simply deal consistent damage.  He can tank (Maintenance Unit/Heavy Plating), deal out global damage (External Combustion), and even set up a damage spike (via OmniCannon) more flexibly and reliably than Tachyon and more often than Haka.  And, to date, only he and Nightmist can shut down the Environment deck.  Compare this to Ra?  Ra deals damage and can occasionally throw cards from the Environment trash back under the deck.  Unless I know I'm facing a ton of Equipment destruction, I'll take Bunker every time.

I'm okay with Bunker's overall damage being slightly lower than Ra just because of that:  he can do more.  Ra, despite his hit points, can't tank.  Tempest, despite his awesome healing ability, often gets stuck in the "lowest HP hero" trap and can be rather fragile.  And, each round you spend playing Tempest's armor card or Cleansing Downpour is a round that he's not slinging Chain Lightning or Lightning Slash.  Bunker provides a happy medium, getting around those weaknesses. 

To frame it in football-draft terms, Bunker's "upside" isn't as high, but he's a consistent producer who can take on multiple roles.  Plug him in on your offensive line and you've got a consistent starter for the next decade.

I wouldn't say Ra can't tank; he starts with 30 HP and can regain 12 in short order by repeatedly summoning his Staff.  This can make him as much of a tank as some parties get.

I would agree. Ra is surprisingly durable due to his high base HP and staff summoning. As for Maintanance Unit/Heavy Plating: Tempest has the exact same two cards except his heal covers ALL hero targets. So Tempest tanking up and healing > Bunker tanking up and healing.

True, Tempest is better at tank+heal (unless you have Scholar in the team demanding NOT to be healed because he needs his HP to drop for Mortal Form to Energy to deal damage).  But Bunker is better at straight tanking, because he can get both Heavy Plating and Recharge Mode.  It means he does nothing else while tanking, but being able to take only 1 damage from a 3-damage hit is pretty huge.  Even better if Tempest puts down Shielding Winds, making a 5-damage hit reduce to 1 (though annoyingly a 4-damage hit stays at 2; the winds are fickle).

I recommend more games of Sentinels of the Multiverse, trying out Bunker at least every once and awhile. He may eventually grow on you! Or it'll just reveal that Bunker is not the hero for you. Either way, at least you are playing Sentinels of the Multiverse, the greatest fixed deck, super hero themed, cooperative card game!

I have done a house rule to speed up Bunker for people who want him to move from a solid team member to more of a beast.  It keeps him pretty well balanced, but definitely moves him up the list in how effective he is.

Not that he needs it, four cards isn't a tough setup, his only real problem for me is he has no card pull, so sometimes you end up a card or two off of where you'd like to be, even setting realistic expectations.

(the four cards refers to one of my favorite Bunker set ups, Turret, Plating, Grenade, Maintenance)

I add a little text:

Recharge Mode:

You may destroy this card at the start of your turn, if you do you may put a mode card into play from your hand or trash.

Upgrade Mode:

You may destroy this card at the start of your turn, if you do you may search your deck for an equipment card and put it in your hand.

Turret Mode:

At the Start of your turn you may destroy one of your cards, if you do you may put a card from your hand into play.

Recharge lets you switch directly into upgrade without losing a card play, but you can also pull a mode from your trash which helps for discards or if you don't have one in your hand.

Upgrade gives him the ability to pull an equip from your deck, something Bunker is really missing.

Turret just lets you switch out what you have out, or sacrifice one to play combustion.

@Zed: you won't find consensus on Hero's power around here. What there is consensus is that the game's goal is not competition but fun so tweaking characters is not frowned upon or anything. But you won't find consensus either in how to go with it :-P

@phanta: I have been trying to simplify my variants and thus trying to change the least amount of cards possible. I have to try it, but thougth of giving Bunker Ammo Drop in play from the set-up (even make it indestructible?). Buker does a good showing when he is swimming in cards, find Omni or Gatling and can feed it while doing other stuff (without the need to change more text).

The one I had tried was giving Upgrade "You may play Initialize power" and Recharge "You may play Maintenance Unit power".

If I understand it correctly, the original poster's objection is that there isn't anything that Bunker can do better then every other hero.

Bunker, however, is the tactician of the Freedom Five. His strength is in the variety of things that he can do. He is medium good at most tasks rather than being super good at any one thing.

Yeah, Tempest is also a generalist, and I don't hear you complaining about him.

Bunker fills a niche.  He isn't a go-to hero, he isn't going to carry the team unless he has the right help and he isn't a jack of all trades that can fill out a team and make up for that teams weaknesses.

Bunker is unable to fill a specific role even in damage, because of the unreliability of his build.  Almost every other hero has an easier time getting going than Bunker.  

AZ has 10 cards that let you use a power to deal damage the turn the card is played , Wraith has 12,  Expat has 14, and Arsenal access has a decent chance to as well,  Bunker has 6.

One shots that deal damage (without requiring other cards already being played to do so):

Bunker has 3, same as Wraith and Omnitron-X.

Argent Adept, Expat (unload and RPG require other cards to do damage), have zero.  Out of 18 heroes 13 have more one-shot damage cards than Bunker, if you count the cards that require other cards to be destroyed to deal damage everyone but Adept has more one-shots that deal damage than Bunker.

So given any situation where you only had cards in your hand to rely on doing damage that turn bunker has 9 cards that could work, same as Legacy and the Visionary.

As for direct impact on the match, Bunker has 16 cards that affect something other than himself.  24 of his cards don't deal damage, boost allies, or affect any deck or cards but his own.  Legacy, with all his self buffs has 24 that affect other decks.

What is the point of this info?

Bunker more than any other hero (depending on how you judge Fixer) has a deck that focuses on him.  Healing, reducing damage, mode cards, getting cards from the trash, drawing more cards, using more powers.  Even his base power only affects himself.

With that kind of focus on himself, and 15 cards focused on getting more cards in your hand and in play Bunker plays slower than most heroes.

That is insane.  Crono has one of the fastest decks in the game, and his cards almost all do damage.  Ammo Drop, Recharge Mode, Upgrade Mode, Decomissioned Hardware, Auxiliary power supply all are designed to get cards into your hand and in play, and yet they don't have any decent synergy.

Bunker isn't a jack-of-all-trades, master of none, he's an exercise in finding order in chaos.  He has too much stuff he can do, but it all depends on what you get, and whether those cards work together well.  When you get the right cards and can get into a groove early it is great to be bunker, but often you are left to make due with what you have.

Is that true of anyone, yes anyone can get a bad hand, but no one has as many no-impact cards as Bunker, 60% of his deck affects no one but him.  And those 24 cards involve exactly Zero that can pull an equipment card from your deck.  He has zero deck shrinking cards, all his extra draws require something to happen to get the cards, use a power, wait a round, have a villain target destroyed.

Bunker ends up Clunky and slow, but powerful if he can get to that point.

Bunker isn't a bad hero, and I like the thematics of a not-perfect armored suit that is clunky and difficult to operate.  This isn't Iron Man, Vance isn't in a sleek efficient high-powered armor suit.  He can still pack a punch, or take a punch pretty dang well, and with the right cards can do both at the same time.

That's why I allow people to use my house ruled Mode card changes.  it gives a bit more flow to the mode cards, and gives a pull from your deck option (that has the one round delay to use that keeps with his deck mechanics).  It ends up usually speeding up Bunker's deck by 1-3 cards a game, or roughly the value of an Impromptu Invention getting played, and that makes a big difference with Bunker.

Overall I like him, I like the thematic side of him, and I enjoy playing him, esp. with some card support (Adept, Omni are amazing,Visionary and Fixer help him a lot as well)

If you play 4 heroes with two players play Omnitron-X and Bunker and have Omni throw Bunker a lot of Timeshifts, man it is fun.  There is a fan made alternate card on BGG with a similar power to Omni, you reveal the top two cards of your deck, put one into play and discard the other.  I'm not a fan (since I like the Mode card theme and it lessens the value of them) but it is an option for people that would like to drop into turret mode and still be able to get cards into play.

The only thing about Bunker that I really don't like (besides thinking his "tank" role would be more fitting if he had more HP, and/or if Heavy Plating wasn't limited) is the fact that I almost never want to use Initialize.  Once you draw a Flak Cannon or the like, you'll never use that base power again, and I often have one in my opening hand, or I start with an AuxPS which draws a Cannon.  Gatling Gun and Omni-Cannon both directly tell Bunker to get cards, but I tend not to draw them as often somehow, perhaps because Flak Cannon and Grenade Launcher are better at directly ending games.

If you get Gattling Gun early before any of your other damage powers, then Initialize is great, otherwise, yeah I'm in a similar boat. Once I have a means to deal damage, I tend to not use Initialize, especially since it can't be used while in Turret Mode.

I would not consider Bunker a generalist at all because, as phantaskippy pointed out, he is much too self focused. He nearly completely lacks any control or support aspects in the game.

He cannot remove ongoings/environments, he can't heal allies, give allies extra plays, retrieve from trash, give allies extra powers, re-order decks, give allies draws or do anything at all that interacts with other heroes.

In fact the ONLY card he has that I would consider to be control/support is Adhesive Foam Grenades. This near complete self focus should mean, logically, that he would have very high outgoing damage/survivability. I don't find this to be the case with even Tempest having the cards on hand to be as tanky as Bunker.

Tempest on the other hand, is quite possibly the most generally powerful character in the game; especially with anyone boosting his damage.

He has the most powerful mass damage in the game with many of his attacks hitting every non-hero character, a large number of massive damage one-shots, environment AND ongoing destruction, massive card draw, the best heal power in the game, Gene Bound Shackles to cream the main villain (combine with Vicious Cyclone for extra giggles), a damage reduction card, can retrive cards from the trash for the entire team, and finally is the only hero that can throw a card in play onto the top of the villain deck.

The sheer amount of insane utlity that Tempest brings to the table for any situation on top of the best mass damage in the game (and single target damage to nearly rival Ra) makes him easily the most versatile, and probably also the most powerful, hero in the game.

Tempest is the one hero above all I don't bring if I want a difficult game. Combine him with Legacy and most villains will simply melt, almost regardless of what you draw on Legacy/Tempest.

Funnily enough, I have two friends who actually fight over Bunker. When I asked them why they love him so much (since, personally, I find him underwhelming and too finicky), they simply answered:

"Bunker. He gets things done."

I will try to refrain from echoing the sentiments above, but I will say this. In our games, we concentrate on our individual schticks to take down the bad guy (Ra for damage, Legacy boosts, etc etc), and then whatever is left over, we give to Bunker. He's that guy. As everyone has said so far, he can do most everything. He isn't the best, but he can plug just about any shaped hole you find. He's the guy that you give an assignment to, and just leave him to it. He'll get it done, perhaps not perfectly, not the best work, but it'll get done. That's how he's a generalist.

I haven't personally seen a game where Mode cards (apart from Recharge Mode for that sweet sweet -1 DR) were actually used. Just saying.

I am already laughing, thinking about what you'll say when you play Fixer :))

@Drakossozh--You said it better than I ever could.  "Bunker:  He gets things done."  Perfect.

Regarding Ra's "tankability"...he's just not reliable in that role.  Aside from Flesh of the Sun God (which is incredibly damage-type dependent), he has no damage mitigation ability:  no "armor" card, no ability to reduce foes' damage.  Even given an ideal 'tanking' scenario--a hand full of Staffs and Summon Staff--the Limited nature of the Staff means that Ra has to destroy his best personal buff every time each time he wants to replay the Staff and regain those hp.  That's just not worth it, considering what else is in Ra's hand:  Flame Spike, Inferno, Fire Blast, etc.  Yes, the Staff HP-gain gives Ra an out, but it's not reliable and it's certainly not optimal, especially compared to Bunker's Heavy Plating/Maintenance Unit combo.

I do wish that Initialize was just a touch more desirable.  It's just such a lackluster option as soon as you get down any of Bunker's Equipment cards.  Maybe if it gave him DR 1 for a turn as well as the card draw...

Bunker's MODES turn into Omni-Cannon fodder for me. 

Or gattling gun, or just general villain or environment discard fodder.

The best way I can describe Bunker is as a workhorse (echoing Drakossozh's statements).  He's survivable.  He's got Ok damage.  He mops up whatever is left, and creates openings for other people.  He takes the hits, sacrifices equipment, and keeps on going.

I'm not going to say he's perfect.  But I've seen people playing him to great effect, and having a blast doing it.

He's at his best in 3 player games, where the low H makes the most out of his armor.   He's at his weakest in 5 player games, where the high H blasts his defenses, and the accelerated pace make quick setup a priority.  But even then he's far from bad.

Bunker should never, ever, EVER be given to someone who needs to do "the most".  He's not for people who need to hit the hardest, or take the biggest hit, or play the most cards, or specialize in one particular role.  If thats what you want- if thats what you are hoping to get out of him, you are NOT going to find it.  He's deliberate.  Every card you play needs to be evaluated.  theres no "perfect" setup.  thats one of th ereasons I rarealy play him- I prefer characters that have ups and downs, and are doing a bunch of different things.  thats not Bunker.  He might well play three cards the entire game (Flak, grenade, turret).  Or he might play a card every turn and never use a mode.  Or he might sit back and charge the Omnicannon in recharge mode while the gatling spits out fire.  Ultimately, (as has been said previously) he gets things done.

@Envisioner
For whatever reason, your post above about new posts is messing with my browser. It always goes to your post first. This is the first time I have ever seen that, and I am not even sure what the peoblem is. My guess would be the words “new.” So, as an experiment, can you edit that post.

@ Pydro:  Yeah, I'm getting that too.  I'll try it.

I didn't realize why this was happening until now.  It is in fact due to the contents of his post.  Whenever you look to view the new posts of a topic, the link has a '#new' added to the end of the URL, which means, once the page is loaded, it looks for the first anchor tag with an id equal to new.  given how he pasted that into the rich text editor, it picked up on the original text having an anchor tag in the original HTML, thus it was posted into his post with said HTML.  Unless he were to edit it (he just has to delete the '(new)' phrases from his post, and, to ensure the anchor tag is gone, delete the surrounding words as well) and retype the information back in manually.  That should get rid of the anchor tag.

I don't take issue with the idea that Bunker is a solid hero, and doesn't need improved.

I do take issue with anyone claiming he is versatile in comparison to other heroes.

His effect on the game is relegated to dealing damage, taking damage and Adhesive Foam Grenades.  Ra can boost everyone's damage and make heroes immune to fire damage, Ra has more cards that affect the game (outside of himself) without dealing damage than Bunker does.

Bunker's Versatility comes soleley from being able to heal, take reduced damage and deal damage in various creative ways.

Bunker's strength over a Haka is that he can deal more instances of damage, which is his true strength.  But even then he can be matched pretty easily, you trade set up time and versatility for a reliable amount of damage at the end, for as long as his setup lasts.

Wraith and Bunker deal similar damage, Wraiths 4 card damage setup and Bunkers 3 cards setup give Wraith a 2 point damage advantage, at the cost of one extra turn, if you go five cards with Bunker you can get Ammo Drop and Gatling and outdamage Wraith by one, but Wraith still plays and draws cards at that point.  Letting her provide more versatile actions, as well as prepare to recover from any disaster.

Once Turret mode hits the field Bunker is done, he is what he is, and if he gives up Turret to adjust his setup he loses much of his power.

When you have the right cards he's pretty dang good, and really fits the "gets things done" title.  The problem is he is more susceptible to a hand that doesn't do anything to further the match at all than anyone else is.

Envisioner, just delete everything in that post. Save it, then type it again. It's still going crazy. 

Edit: I agree with Skippy. Bunker may be a lot of things. Versitile is just not one of them. You need a long term vision from your opening hand of how you want to go. Bunker needs time to setup as we all know. He is a very setup heavy and dependant hero. So how does he get that time? He is great at buying time! He can stall out the Environment deck for a turn. He can heal and reach 2DR to buy time (of which recharge mode is part and parcel). Recharge also nets you 3 cards a turn, which compliments nicely with upgrade mode. Upgrade Mode takes planning to use properly, but if used correctly will end up saving Bunker 2-3 turns of card plays in the long run.

Bunker is not an instant gratification hero. I think that is the ultimate way to describe every single frustration with him. He takes long term planning and some tactical trading between turns/card plays to edge out efficiency in the long run of a game. SotM has a way of throwing situations at you wich amount to "deal with this now or die!", and that is just not Bunkers strong suit. Engine of War promo Bunker directly addresses this issue, giving Bunker some instant utility. Panzerker (I can probably come up with a better nick name for him) switches that utility from added field control to focused fire damage manipulation. 

I haven't had a problem since I removed the tags. Is anyone still having problems with it?

All good on my end now.

Bunker's Modes could use some hashtags

I agree fully with Foote.

Bunker is best on a team where all the bases are covered, but they could use more damage.  Or on any team that has Omnitron-X.

That's why he works so well as part of the Freedom 4, Tachyon Wraith and Legacy have the bases covered, you just exist to get set up and do your own thing.

I should clarify:

Long Setup is a poor choice of words.  Bunker is a slow starter, as he has no base power damage and no way to search for Grenade Launcher, Flak Cannon, or Gatling Gun.  He is more susceptible to a slow start than other heroes, even Expatriette or AZ.

Once you get a few key cards out you have to choose when to throw down turret mode.  Since he isn't doing much else to help the team than deal damage, you do need to do that at some point.  Omnicannon/Gatling is cool, esp. if you have recharge and plating out, but other than that you are looking for that 2 powers a turn and +1 damage.

Once you throw Turret you are done setting up.

When you destroy Turret you lose +1 and a power use, to play cards that aren't going to make an impact that turn.  It is a rare time when not doing stuff now to do more later works well in Sentinels, plus at the time you are ditching Turret to play more cards you aren't early in a match anymore, usually it is better to stay in turret and help finish the deal.

Because of this Bunker usually falls into a few patterns in his matches:

1.  Never get set up, but do pretty good anyway.

2.  Get a great setup, but almost too late to really shine with it.

3.  Lucky opening hand and early draws gets you rolling early with a small card setup, and you lock into it for the rest of the game.

Unless you have extra card plays early/Omnitron-X helping you out.  If there is support Bunker can be the only damage dealer, but if he gets a rotten shuffle it isn't going to go well.

I know it isn't really statistically possible (or even the proper way to play him?), but some of the most enjoyable games we've had with my friends playing Bunker has to be him laying down cover fire with his Flak Cannon (or Rocket Launcher, whatever is on hand or needed), while (and this is the important part) loading up the Omnicannon. I don't think there are many things as satisfying as frying your opponent with a single big shot from that bad boy.

The best part is when Bunker comes last, and everyone before him buffs his damage and/or whittles the opponent down to the point where the charged up Omni would be able to take it out in one shot. Inevitably, when Bunker's turn swings around, the whole table shouts "Finish him!", while imagining a gigantic beam of energy completely obliterating, er, everything.

Good times.

Once you throw Turret you are done setting up.

I have played games in which I keep Turret Mode around for only the single round because I needed the slight boost, because I wanted to play and do other things.

I can dig that, there are times where that one point is all the difference in the world.

But if you have two powers you can use with turret mode, it gets awfully hard to make up later what you are losing now by ditching it, esp. if you don't have another Turret mode around.

@Ronway: As for removing Turret Mode once you get fully setup; I see little reason for doing this. Maybe if you were forced into throwing Turret Mode down early due to needing that little boost in damage to kill something. Assuming you have both of your weapons down with Turret Mode the loss in damage would far outweigh any bonus you would get; except perhaps if you had an Omni to throw down AND another Turret Mode in hand.

I'm not saying Bunker is useless; he can get stuff done. He just seems to have no upsides to counteract the clunky design of his modes. I've never had a situation where I went: "Wow, I really wish we had Bunker on the team right now."

Bunker still seems to me to be in a position of "I can do anything better than you" when set aside the others. His modes are incredibly restrictive for no good reason. Other heroes have similar cards that give them extra plays/draws/powers and they have no such restrictions.

Why should setup dependent, no dig/no deck search, Bunker have such massive restrictions on his modes to the point of making two of his modes almost pointless to use and the third shut him down from drawing/playing cards for the rest of the game?

I have played him and tried to reason out a good reason for him to have these restrictions but I just cannot see one. There is no reason for the modes to be so restrictive except to make Bunker slow and clunky to set up compared to other heroes; even AZ can get going easier

Keeping an Auxiliary Power Source in play will allow for 2 power uses in a later turn when it may be needed. Sure it lacks the +1, but 2 powers can still help out. External Combustion is also very nice to keep handy.

Bunker switches modes because he's supposed to switch moves.  It's not optimal, it's thematic.  He's a machine, and not a super-sexy future machine like Omnitron-X; he's intentionally a bit clunky and has to shift gears to operate, in order to make him feel more like a vehicle instead of a natural superhuman.

Loading an omnicannon is asking to get your equipment wiped.  I won't do it unless I'm absolutely sure the villain in question can't do such a thing.  That said, it certainly would be a fun way of taking out, say, Spite.  Go on, bub, keep healing; kill all the victims you like.  I'll just be sitting back here, slowly putting my entire deck under the Omni-Cannon except for one Flak Cannon, a Gatling Gun and Turret Mode.  That's 80 damage exactly, unless I miscounted somehow.  (The best part is that if you've drawn your entire deck, and the last card in your hand is, say, the other Omni-Cannon, you can discard it at EOT to power the Gatling gun, then "shuffle" it and draw it the next turn before immediately discarding it again.)

While it's not necessarily "optimal" in terms of prepping for a nova turn, I find that actually using the Omni-Cannon can really be useful, especially against villains with high hit point minions like La Capitan, Akash-Bhuta, Voss, or Citizen Dawn.  Being able to one-shot Citizen Truth, SiegeBreaker or a Primeval Limb can really go a long way towards having success with Bunker, and you can do it at least every other round, if not every round, depending on your card draw.  As you can imagine, Ammo Drop really helps this strategy, as does a team that helps your card draw.

It's nice against Apostate's relics as well, when those bloody Runes are out...

I like dry firing the cannon for 1 point of damage (with Turrent Mode), it's fun!

Nielzabub, I'm glad you mentioned Impromptu invention and trust fund, etc because a big thing in my opinion is that it is rather difficult and time intensive to try to get set up with Bunker.  Unlike my experience with similar set up heros he doesn't have a great kick to be worth the wait.  I no longer try to play him based around modes, and only use them if they fall into place or I have extra copies to spare (or have no better option on that turn).

Regardless I always thought it would be a big help if Bunker could return his modes to hand at the beginning of each turn instead of destroy them.  Even if you have your turret setup just as you want it, it helps to be able to pop out, foam grenade, and next turn go right back to turret.  Or perhaps pop out to get some cards for the cannon and the gatling gun. 

I know several people have discussed a home rule where he can draw cards outside of his draw phase, so if he uses a battery as a power or another hero lets him draw.

Having Modes cost 0 cards instead of 1 card would be a nice boon for Bunker.

That is a possibility, you could allow swapping modes at the start of the turn, returning the mode that was in play to your hand.  That way Recharge and Upgrade would be full strength if you swapped them in, and the only time you would have to use a card play to put down a mode would be the first time.

That's actually a really simple option, I'll have to try it.  basically adding to each mode card:

At the start of your turn you may return this card to your hand, if you do you may play a mode card.

While I am a big fan of Bunker as is, IF I had to change something it would be Gatling Gun. Gatling Gun  is a really cool card in that it changes Bunker's base power from drawing a card to dealing damage. The problem is, is that as a damage power, it is simply worse than Flak Cannon  or Grenade Launcher .

If I had all three of those cards in my hand, I wouldn't put down Gatling gun first. If, however, it was comparable, I might. Playing Flak Cannon or Grenade Launcher not only puts you closer to Turret Mode, but it also moves you away from Recharge and Upgrade Mode. This not only makes those cards less desirable, but it also takes away from the different paths. However, if it is worth it to play Gatling Gun, this could change.

In fact, by making Gatling Gun bigger, you also don't have to rely on Turret Mode as much. You can use a combination of Gatling Gun & Flak Cannon/Gatling Gun & Grenade Launcher while not having a mode. This will stall your deck as you aren't getting an cards, but you can enter faster and without Turret Mode. If setup properly Turret Mode is still better, which still leaves that option.

You don't have to worry about Turret Mode being too powerful with the buff from Gatling Gun, because you would still need Ammo Drop to consistently pay the cost. However, if you can play all those cards, you would get the added Boost that a 5 card combo should have.

This would also make Recharge Mode more worth it. 2 damage doesn't really do anything (It can only kill birds and zombies outright). By making the damage worth it, there would be more of an incentive to enter tank mode and draw a lot of cards. You would change Recharge Mode from being draw 3 cards, to draw 2 cards and use a power.

There is also the issue of what to do with those extra cards from Recharge Mode. All you really need are the cards for a Turret Mode setup. If you draws those quickly, great. If not, you are stuck with dead cards unless you find GG or Omni-Cannon. However, for only 2 damage a card, it usually isn't worth it. By making GG better, you can keep digging for it, and not feel like you wasted your turns.

Once you draw those cards, you want to use Upgrade Mode to play them fast. Upgrade Mode grants you 2 plays and a draw. As it is, you can try to rely on that draw and exit Recharge Mode earlier and hope for the best. If you stayed in Recharge Mode to find all the cards you need, you really don't need the extra draw from Upgrade Mode. With Gatling Gun, you can change that draw into a power. By buffing the power, you can make it worth it to stay in Upgrade Mode longer and get more cards out

So what sort of change should Gatling Gun have? You could make the power different depending on which Mode Bunker is in, but that could get complicated and require a lot of text. The simplest solution would be to make it deal 3 damage instead of 2. This would at least make it comparable to Flak Cannon, although not better.

You could also make it deal 4 damage. This would actually give more strategy outside of Turret Mode. Purposely going into Recharge mode to fuel a 4 damage Gatling Gun, can be very effective. The biggest issue, though, is that it would be better than Omni-Cannon, but a small buff to that might not be a bad idea either.

A third option is to give Gatling Gun an ability that Bunker doesn't have. For example, deal 1 damage to all non-hero targets. This could be powerful, but it might not make Gatling as strong in Recharge mode or Upgrade Mode, while making it stronger in Turret Mode, which is something we want to avoid.

Thieves, Informants, Passing Tumbleweeds, Treacherous Apes, and Sonic Mines.

What if you could discard more than one card for it (much like Vicious Cyclone) in turret mode?

That turns it into something that could be fired again and again and again (until you ran out of cards or decided to stop).  At 2 damage a pop, that could be a lot of fun. Since its a lot harder for Bunker to regain cards in turret mode, it means that you would have to be very careful about dumping everything into one big chain.  But if you NEEDED a big chain, and had the hand for it, you could do that.

Missed those.

Would Bee Bot and Raptor Bot count?

Bee Bot sure, not sure why you would want to kill Mr. Chomps though.

This is actually interesting. It can make for a lot of damage in Recharge Mode. Although, you might have to change Omni-Cannon.

If you want it to be very powerful, you could have Gatling Gun deal 2 (or 1) damage, every time you draw a card.

Sure there is, what if Unity used the precious Heavy Plating to make it without Bunker's consent?

Edit: There's also saving it from the Final Wasteland while Unforgiving Wasteland is in play or Battle Forged.

So in this scenario playing Turret Mode while in Upgrade Mode still destroys Upgrade Mode?

@Pydro: I was going to write something long on Gatling Gun, I'll just keep it at "almost agree".

What if instead of dealing 3 to one, it instead deals 2 to all? I mean, it IS suppressive fire...

Maybe 1 to all, since it does happen for free on your turn and would therefore be strictly better than the grenade launcher (which does 2 2 1 and uses up a power).

Yes, only if you swap it out at the start of your turn would you get it back in hand.

I tried it out and I loved it.  Frankly it might be too powerful.  I went into turret with Ammo Drop, Grenade and Maintenance (opening hand had no guns, got grenade after round two) so I could do more to kill Chairman's goons, then after two turns of Turret switched out for upgrade, played Omni and plating, then Gatling and turret.  (this time destroying upgrade) for one turn out of turret mode I got three cards in play.  I was tanking the operative and eventually one-shot the chairman.

It speeds up your play, but also really, really strengthens going into turret early if ammo is in play.  I also went Recharge to Upgrade and back in a second game, put plating omni and gatling, then just chilled for a while.  It was ridiculous.

I would only suggest using that house rule if you really want Bunker to be a top tier hero, because it achieves that, it puts him on Wraith's level in my opinion.  Mass destruction still really hurts, but if you saved a recharge you'll be back up pretty quick.

Or any of La Capitan's crew, to a lesser extent, or to change the lowest or second-lowest HP target, or to stop it from doing unwanted damage against The Dreamer or Miss Information…

Dang, beat me to mentioning the Dreamer. I had a (solo) game against her with O-X, Unity, and Expat. By the end nobody was allowed to attack the projections because then Raptor bot wouldn't have a target for his… 16 damage I think I was up to, it was ridiculous.

Internet was down at work so I fooled a bit with Vassal, doing some "let's see what I draw" and one game against Blade and two against Voss (you can do really quick solo games in Vassal).

I don't think it makes him as powerful as you say phanta. This rule encourages opening with Turret (never with Upgrade, sometimes with Recharge for the damage reduction) with another Mode in hand. Opening with Turret plain trades a card draw for a power and then you just switch around with the modes mitigating the first turn "penalty" Upgrade/Recharge have. But this still makes you have turns of no-damage. The switch from Turret to Upgrade, play card and go back to Turret is like a cheat, sure. But that's it. Bunker's still has a slow start as a Hero, he still likes to draw lots of cards (discards hurt your potential) and he still is equipment dependant. My impression is that he is somewhat near Haka's power level and style: draw lot's of cards for conversion, get the right equipment/ongoing down and he might outshine other overall stronger heroes or do as good as the weaker ones. Wraith is still better IMO, she can still do more with equal or less time: stack Villain deck, reduce it's damage and/or deal as much damage (outside of OmniCannon). Would need to try him against other Villains with destruction like La Capitan or Omnitron.
If you want a watered down version of this you might as well keep the no-destruction but have the Mode be played in your Play phase. It's not as interesting or good switching Modes but you keep a higher card count.

I have opened with upgrade, that extra card play is still great, esp. if you have several of Plating, Ammo, Auxiliary, Gatling or Omni+recharge.  You get them out and then switch to recharge or turret.  I only go turret right off the bat if I get ammo drop or really need to deal the damage.

With the start of turn switch out getting more cards is a bigger priority, since you can use them even better.

Upgrade to Recharge is a great switch, play upgrade, and a card, play two more the next turn, if you don't have anything going still start of turn switch to recharge and you get the three cards that turn, and when you switch back to upgrade you don't waste a play on upgrade.

The more you use modes that fit what you can do with your hand, the more cards you gain with this house rule.

Using Recharge and Upgrade to get cards and then put them in play is a real bonus with this rule, as you don't lose a card play, the mode, or the first draw of recharge.

Bunker can get to a basic Turret-Mode setup slightly quicker than regular, but the big thing is you can upgrade from that setup to a really awesome one so much quicker.

You can also simply return a style to hand and not play another one, you just have to then play a mode card to get going again.

You are still susceptible to a really bad opening, but once you get a little bit going it helps speed the rpocess a lot.

Also putting Bunker with Wraith was probably a reach, but I find this house rule turns him into one of the best damage dealers, and his tanking.

There goes the sham that this was not a copycat of Fixer's mechanic.

Uhm… I'm stil not sure about opening with Upgrade. It's the Mode that has the biggest 'penalty' for opening with but I guess you can justify it a lot more now with different hands.

So if he is now around the best damage dealers he should be about fine, right? He has a slow start and spends some turns in either Recharge/Upgrade not dealing damage (outside of Gatling) and at most tanking a bit. Those are turns he is not dealing damage, so it averages with his higher output late game, not outing the likes of Ra.

I agree that the big thing is being able to get into Turret Mode and being able to improve it seamlessly. It justifies playing the weak Maintenance Mode for those occasions.

It just doesn't punish you as much as he normally does.

This has nothing to do with the previous discussion, but I didn't want to make a new thread. While I very much enjoy Bunker as is, there is one very small change I was considering. Compared to other changes, this doesn't add so much, but I still wanted to mention it.

Instead of the "cannot"s on each Mode card, instead skip a phase:

Recharge Mode: skip your play and power phase

Upgrade Mode: skip your power phase

Turret Mode: skip you play and draw phase

The first minor thing it does is take out the restrictions from out of turn effects. A very minor point, but with certain heroes, you won't feel so alone.

The thing I like about this is that it allows you to use Initialize while in Turret Mode. This could add in a bit of varitey. You don't need to wait for both guns to enter Turret Mode. If you only have one, you can exchange your play phase for +1 damage. It could also add a little variety to Turret Mode as you can exchange Gatling Gun/Omni-Cannon with one of the guns. This could help you get into Turret Mode faster and eaier since you have more cards for the combo. This situations aren't better than Bunker's normal setups, but you play what cards you have and a little more variety in gameplay without changing Bunker too much might be fun.

I have seen a lot of posts on changing Bunker, and this really doesn't compare in power to those. But it was an idea, and I wanted to share it.

Of all proposed changes to Bunker, this is the change I like the most.

Uh oh. Does that mean there may be some official errata?

This is the only Bunker variant I'v seen that I might actually adopt myself. Keeps Bunker essentially the same but increases synergy with the rest of the team hes on with minimal change.

Instead of the "cannot"s on each Mode card, instead skip a phase:

Recharge Mode: skip your play and power phase

Upgrade Mode: skip your power phase

Turret Mode: skip you play and draw phase

The first minor thing it does is take out the restrictions from out of turn effects. A very minor point, but with certain heroes, you won't feel so alone.

I tried this, but it didn't feel right to me.  It doesn't help you at all in most games, but with a Greatest Legacy or Argent Adept Bunker becomes crazy good.  Tanking with Plating/Recharge/Maintenance is amazingly epic with a greatest Legacy, -2 damage taken, +3 hp each round, and all that card draw, throw in Omnicannon and Gatling and it's even better.

Recharge or Turret with an Adept is insanely good, since you can still put cards into play and draw cards.  Add in a TLT and it is crazy good.

That's not what I didn't like though, what I didn't like was Bunker suddenly turning into a really powerful character, but only if the other heroes take certain heroes, and only if they dedicate their actions to you.  It got very close to the "I'm the carry, you support me!" ideology that annoys me.  Playing Adept with a Bunker gets boring, because the best option almost every round is to support Bunker.  Doing otherwise was intentionally acting against the teams best interest, and that stunk.

I liked it a lot in games where the environment gave you options.  But overall I like Bunker thematically standing on his own, benefitting less from support than most heroes that the reverse.

Uh oh. Does that mean there may be some official errata?

No.

Played the game again the other game and after playing the game regularly went over my variants from my solo games. Tried Bunker again but made just a slight change to phanta's version: just replace the word "destroy" from all Mode cards by "return to your hand".

In Phanta's version Mode cards cost 0 cards to play but they also give you a constant "you may play a Mode card each turn". I think that second part deviated just a little bit from standard Bunker feel, making it easier for him to switch from Recharge to Turret than from standard Mode to Turret. Making the Modes cost 0 cards does the job almost as good I think. After the game I'm also positive in including Gatling Gun in this change (discard a card to deal damage, if not return to hand instead of destroying it).

After being successful with Fixer and Expat I've been trying to make an alternate character card for Bunker that I really like.  I've come close, but honestly having modes return to hand is probably the best thing.  Even if you don't get a free mode play from it, this helps in a lot of ways.

I wonder if a power that lets you search for and switch mode cards would work well.  Of course you couldn't use it in Upgrade or Recharge Mode, but you could always destroy them at the start of your turn and then play a card like normal and use your power to get a new mode into play.

Lets see, if you grabbed Turret it would give you a second power use right away but essentially that would mean you got one card play and one power at +1 damage so maybe its not a big deal.

If you got Upgrade you are past the time to play cards so nothing happens.

If you grabbed Recharge you would get an extra card draw and +1def for the turn.  Then you could blow it up at the start of your turn.  This one is probably the most problematic.  It essentially means you are using your power to draw a card (like on his base power) and get +1 defense for the turn.  Maybe that isn't too bad.  Actually I might have to give this a shot.

Lets face it, Naturalist spoiled me.

Yeah, but Naturalist needs his "modes" - otherwise, he's just a person. Bunker can do a lot without his modes. I don't really look at them as comparable.

But then I haven't really had any concerns with Bunker as-is, so I'm probably not the right person to provide feedback on this.

The Naturalist is not weak when 'just' a human, there are advantages to being in a form but he has a lot of power outside of them.

Admittedly this is only 1 data point but I have played a game where I was never in a form and yet used a power every turn, killing a minion that others would have struggled to do everytime.

EDIT

Guards getting eaten left and right. There should be a Human-Form Naturalist promo; his base power only works if you remove the three forms from the game.

@Sefirit: Bunker power to "search a Mode card and put it in play or in your hand" uhm... interesting. Will need to try it out. As everything with Bunker, my first thought is that it's not as thematic (since that aspect is really well done IMO) because I would almost always open with Turret if I grab a card with a power (since I can still use my base power) to trim my deck. Otherwise I would open with Recharge, yeah. Playing Upgrade in your Power phase for next turn is cool too.

Funny enough, I thought of a complementary change to Initialize as "Draw a card. Reduce damage dealt to Bunker by 1 until the start of your next turn". Which basically is what you end up doing in your case by playing Recharge in the Power phase. I like that in making Bunker more of a tank for the team but truth is that you play the power only a few times so it's nice, but not really relevant.

The thing that bugs me about a search power for Bunker is that his deck has the most redudancy of all Hero decks, he has only 14 different cards and 3 of each except for 2 OmniCannon and Gatling Gun. His deck is built with a "draw cards" mentality to get his stuff, and he has the cards to convert that draw into damage. He just doesn't do it as fast as other Heroes can dish out damage which is good since he can deal reliable above average damage with a Turret set up (which Wraith puts to shame, but that's another story).

The problem with buffing his base power is that it's super hard not yo overshadow the Modes. Make initialize "Draw a card, play a card" makes Upgrade silly. Giving the 1DR+draw makes Recharge more situational than it's already is (1 play vs 1 draw). So that's why changing his Modes is the most cohesive way to give him a buff, need to connect that with his base power. Maybe changing his base power to "Draw a card. At the start of your next turn you may play a Mode card" is good enough? Basically eliminate the penalty of putting down the first Mode card down (if you use your base power) which matters the most to Upgrade and Recharge. Will try it out.

The 2 Bunker promos are cool in that they differ from his deck and take him to a different direction, but makes him more specialized.

What if it was "Draw a card and play it."?

Simulates Bunker grabbing any old thing lying around the workshop and tossing it onto his armor. Seems to me we've seen, say, most comic book power-suiters do that at one time or another.

I agree with your first statement here.  I think what I am looking for is more mode interaction overall.  Probably the change to let you return them to hand at the start instead of being destroyed is the best.  I really think thats the best thing I have heard.  Most of my power suggestions have been to just try to put the change on the character card since it is easier to swap out one character card than it is to swap 9 mode cards (or just remember the change and tell anyone that is playing him about it if they are interested in using it).

As far as theme goes, to answer another poster above, I think that being able to change from one mode to another frequently is quite thematic.  As it is, if you are in one mode and destroy it, you can't transform your armor again unless you draw it again?  Maybe the idea is that it takes a lot of energy so there needs to be a cool down time, I guess I could bye that,  maybe in the comic he can only be in turret mode once, and afterwards his suite is pretty much out of ammo but by then the battle is usually over.  So yeah I can see that, but to expect the suite to be able to transform into the mode desired pretty regularly back and forth seems  pretty thematic two. It just has different expectations on the design of the suite.

I tried this as "put the top card of your deck into play"  so that it would work through turret mode.

It was a lot of fun, but made Turret mode insanely powerful, there really wasn't much reason to leave turret mode

Worded as you have it it would only work with no mode cards in play, since you can't use a power draw a card and play a card with a mode card in play.

played 2 games with

Initialize

Draw a card. You may play a Mode card at the start of your next turn.

and

All Mode cards read "return to hand" instead of "destroy"

having a keyword like 'recall' to mean 'return to hand' would be handy.

I liked it enough, it just smoothes a bit Bunker's play. I used 4 times total the "play Mode card"  in 2 games so it's not that important. When I did I ended up returning to hand the Mode card played. So overall it's just giving an extra play and some extra cards for damage for Gatling/Omni when they appear. I think it's somewhat enough since Bunker was just a tad short from the rest of the cast.

As sort of a mental exercise, I was trying to come up with some different base powers for Bunker, instead of changing his cards. The biggset problem with a new base power is that it won't work with two of his Modes, so you really have to think about things that can be useful.

As a limitation to myself, I have a couple of rules I am following:

1) The new power cannot make a Mode useless. I just don't like this idea.

2) No power that last until the end of your next turn. I know promo Expat has this, but I wanted to stay away from this idea for now.

None of these are tested, just some thoughts on the approach.

Power: Play a Mode card.

Discussion: First, it can't simply be "play a card," otherwise Upgrade Mode will be completely useless (rule #1). However, this might make Upgrade Mode useless anyway. By allowing you to play a Mode during your Power phase, you can play a card during your play phase and then play the Mode. FIrst turn Heavy plating and Recharge Mode is pretty good. You also wouldn't need Upgrade Mode to get into Turret Mode with two guns, since it would only take two turns anyway. Perhaps the biggest advantage is being able to pop out of a Mode at the beginning of a turn, play a card, then go back into the Mode at the end of the turn. Recharge Mode becomes quite powerful this way. You could use this idea with Upgrade Mode, but it would require an Auxillary power Source already in play. Since the only reason to leave Upgrade Mode would be to use a power, you would need to get a second power with Aux in order to go back into Upgrade Mode.

Power: Bunker deals himself 4 damage. If you take damage this way, put a Mode card from your trash into play.

Discussion: By only pulling the Mode from the trash, you wouldn't have a first turn play+Mode. However, once you do have the Mode in the trash, you can always exit the Mode at the beginning and enter back in at the power phase. Very powerful, but you take damage each time. This would prevent you from using it over and over. Just like the first one, Upgrade Mode loses some of its uses.

Power: Put the top card of your trash on top of your deck.

Discussion: First, you can't put it into play, becuase Turret Mode will be way to powerful. This allows you to get back a Mode card, but you will have to play it on the next turn. However, this, also, allows you to get back any card you want with careful planning. One interesting aspect here is that it can actually give Bunker a 4th Mode with One-Shots. You can play the same One-Shot over and over at the cost of stalling your deck. Decomissioned Hardware can bring everything back, but only 1 card a turn. Adhesive Foam Grenade can shutdown the Environment deck at the cost of not doing anything else. Most importantly, External Combustion can be used every turn, and this is what might make this abilitiy too powerful. This is also why I put the card on the top of the deck and not into your hand. If you put it into your hand, then you would be getting another card each turn while cycling your One-Shots.

Power: "Take the high ground!" If there are no Environment cards in play, each player draws 2 cards.

Discussions: This one is a little different than the others, but it tries to take into account Bunker strategic expertise. It is more powerful than TLT, but it comes with a condition. This would make Bunker play very differently, since he wants to target the Environment in order to get the rest of the team a bigger advantage. It also makes Adhesive Foam Grenade much more powerful.

Anyways, just some thoughts. If I have more, I will post them.

I love the play off of Adhesive Foam.

I think I'd be happier if Initialize said you could draw a card regardless much like the Ammo Drop

You might modify this to say "Play a Mode card, even if a mode card says you cannot."

This would let you, in Turret Mode, use Grenade Launcher with the +1 damage and then switch to Recharge Mode to get the defensive boost.

Yeah, liked the High Ground one: unique, early team boost and within Bunker's shtick. Since he can't destroy Environment cards he needs team cooperation to make it work after the first turn. So you have space for variations like just environment targets but reducing the number of cards around. The only issue that I can think of now is that it makes Adhesive Foam Grenade better than Recharge Mode when appropriate, but I guess that's ok.

I don't like the other variatons so much, 'play a mode card' overlaps a bit and I don't think it's worth 4 damage getting a Mode card from trash.

The issue behind making variations is also knowing what you want to fix, what to focus on. The problem I find with Modes is that Bunker's mainly oriented as a damage dealer and he has 2 nice tools to convert cards to damage, but since Mode get destroyed after leaving them, playing them means giving up 2 damage besides the card and the play. Since Modes just shift your focus and the first turn 'penalty' Upgrade and Recharge have makes them below par. Reducing any of these "penalties" makes Mode cards much attractive as a previous variant showed.

So in short, when or what do I think makes Bunker work in his current version?

- Ammo Drop gives you crazy amount of cards

- Fast full featured Turret Mode

- Making good use of Omni-Cannon

And when he doesn't?

- When he only shoots one of this guns all game

- When he doesn't even shoot stuff

- His stuff gets destroyed over and over

- He takes too long to build up

Part of why I think this happens is mentioned above: Mode cards are not good enough a play without a specific situation to make them worthwhile.

I think Initialize is good in design but not enough in strenght, so maybe just switching it around?

Flash-Boot: Draw 3 cards. Discard a card and put a card on top of your deck.

Discussion: With his redundancy in his deck he can afford to discard cards. This makes him reach good cards faster while stil just giving him a net of 1 card in hand. Keeps his standard game play but reducing scenarios when he doesn't have anything good to play. Worse than Auxiliary Power and Recharge since you don't keep all the cards and you want them to convert them to damage. The problem is that it's not an exciting one and it's similar to the power of other Heroes.

The other problem with Mode cards is that it's hard to connect them with your base power since you can't use it with 2 of them, as mentioned before. I liked how this power worked "Hard-Start: Draw a card. You may play a Mode card at the start of your next turn" but it sort of breaks phanta's second rule (which says "end of turn" instead of "start"). What this variant does is eliminate the penalty to get into a Mode, although you still have the penalty for leaving it.

Fully ignoring that rule you can give explicit benefits from playing Mode cards which can circumvent the whole issue. Something like "Draw a card. Until the end of your next turn, whenever you Play a Mode card, draw a card". This replaced the mode card played and it set's up for Upgrade and Recharge (Turret doesn't really need a boost compared to these two). But there's room for more creativity, feeding cards to Bunker is a safe boost to give though.

As I was thinking through this, I realized he had to take that much damage, otherwise Heavy Plating and Maintenace Unit makes the damage pointless. The reason why I put the damage in is because otherwise Bunker would be too powerful. Take Recharge Mode, for example, he could enter it on the first turn, then as cards come up that he needs (Heavy plating, Gatling Gun, Omni-Cannon), he can jump out of the Mode, play the card, then jump back into the Mode at the power phase. Essentially exchanging 1 card draw for a card play. Turret Mode would be the same especially with Ammo Drop. Drop out of Turret Mode, play External Combustion, Adhesive Foam Greande, Heavy plating, Gatling Gun, etc (anything really), use the first power to get Turrot Mode back, then fire off a gun.

Now, I found the rest of your post quite interesting, if only because I disagree with it. Not that your wrong, but my views are very different, which is a good thing.

I very rarely rely on Ammo Drop. If a Villain has enough stuff being destroyed, then I might use it as a replacement for Recharge Mode, but I usually won't waste a few turns putting it out then Gatling Gun/Omni-Cannon for Turret Mode.

While I try to go into a full Turret Mode every game, it only really happens about half the time. It is usually a goal, but I have seen Bunker be effective without it many times.

I see this as making Recharge Mode obsolute. You still get to see the next 3 cards each turn, and as you mentioned, throwing card away for Bunker isn't a problem. You are essentially trading 1 damage reduction for a card play. Very rarely would that be worth it.

That's the thing, I don't see it as Bunker needing a fix. he plays how he plays, and some playstyles don't always work for him. As a simple example, take the first post on this thread:

I STRONGLY disagree with this, in fact, I have proven that they are far from useless.

This would not be my "perfect hand" there are way to many cards there.

But this is the point. Playing a certain way when it doesn't work great will cause different "weaknesses" in the hero. AZ is useless without both modules! Yes, if in your playstyle you don't want to lose any life. 

Wait, Why did I go into this. Right, it depends on how you define a "weakness" and then you can find a way to "fix him.

What you see as a waster of 2 points of damage, I don't see. Without playing recahrge Mode, you might not ever find Gatling Gun or Omni-Cannon. Without Upgrade Mode, you might not ever have an extra turn to play them. Of course you might, but I don't view it as a loss of damage, and therefore didn't come to the conclusion that they need to return to their hands.

Also, I like Bunker as is. I just thought it would be fun to try and work out a new base power with his limitations. 

It hurts so good!

Wasn't it because you wanted me to announce my enjoyment of hurting heroes?

I have seen a lot of people try to fix the Modes, but none of them hit on what I feel is the "problem." (It is in quotes, because I like Bunker as is.)

Of all the Modes, I think Recharge Mode works the best. It can be played any time without any previous setups. However if you do set it up, it can be much more powerful. Now, can the other two Mode do the same? I am not sure.

Turret Mode is the hardest, since its entire ability is to use two powers. However, by putting a power on the card, it would make it much more usable without a setup (or a setup with fewer cards). In fact, giving it an ability Bunker doesn't have can give Bunker a lot more versatility. For example: Deal 1 damage to all non-hero targets. Lower than Greande Launcher but can hit everyone. Now you can play it first turn for some nice damage, play one of the other guns and stay there, or go all out with a lot of possible options each turn.

Upgrade Mode also presents a problem, because you need to have at least 3 cards to play for it to be worth it. The only possible solution I could think of was to add the following line: At the end-of-your-turn, if you did not play a card during your play phase (or draw a card during your draw phase), search your deck for an equipment card and put it into play. 

Now, you can play Upgrade Mode the first turn and slowly pull out what you need from your deck, or find the one card that you are missing, but at the cost of doing anything else. It still works, but if you come in prepared with a bunch of cards, you can get the out much faster.

Of course, someone else can probably come up with something better.

Actually, it was.

Unless you want to gamble, say your opening hand was made up of Upgrade Mode, 2 Adhesive Foam Grenades, and lets go with Turret Mode. I would totally go ahead and play Upgrade Mode followed by 1 of the Adhesive Foam Grenades. I'll still at least draw 1 card, so perhaps it'll be a card worthwhile. Considering the only cards that would not be worth it are Turret Mode and Upgrade Mode, which make up 4 cards of 36 left in the deck, odds are I will draw something. And if I did waste it, than there is a 50% chance I wasted it by drawing another Upgrade Mode, giving me a chance to redeem my use of Upgrade Mode early. If it is another Turret Mode, then oh well, I have a spare for if Turret Mode ever gets destroyed. And it only cost me a single card.

Can't disagree with that. I use that strategy all the time. I even wrote a whole about it in "A Look at Upgrade Mode." 

Hmmmm....there seems to be a post missing.

Anyways, if the first turn penalty is an issue, just add the following lines:

Recharge Mode: When this card enters play, draw a card.

Upgrade Mode: When this card enters play, play a card.

There, no more first turn penalties.

The only difference with Initialize is that it let's you trash one card from the top 3, in both cases you end up drawing the other two. Compared to Initialize, Recharge already changes 1 card play for 1 damage reduction, but the sweetener is the extra card for skipping play and power. I honestly don't think it's treading into Recharge territory here.

…Turret Mode would be the same especially with Ammo Drop. Drop out of Turret Mode, play External Combustion, Adhesive Foam Greande, Heavy plating, Gatling Gun, etc (anything really), use the first power to get Turrot Mode back, then fire off a gun.
Then the problem is not the damage, the problem is that the power is sort of a 'cheat'. I still don't like it since it won't help you much early game which is when your base power will matter the most. If you are using it for this you are already doing a good showing, not one of the scenarios mentioned before.

Right, it depends on how you define a "weakness" and then you can find a way to "fix him.What you see as a waster of 2 points of damage, I don't see.
Well, see, you are wrong here. Every card Bunker has in hand is a potential 2 damage since he can convert them with the right cards. That's a fact. Being able to execute that potential is another thing, or how it can be best done. Now I didn't say "waster" but "playing them means giving up 2 damage besides the card and the play" and I'm stating that the benefit Mode cards give is not worth it in many cases. That part is debatable too, sure.

But I make a big deal about it because Bunker's main role is damage dealing. Unlike Ra or Haka, he doesn't start with a way to deal damage, he has to draw it. Until he does, other heroes will be dealing damage and outpacing him in the damage output while he is drawing cards. But worse, even when he starts with a weapon it takes one equipment to match him for other heroes (so, same amount of investment in play cards for both heroes). Plus other heroes out-do him when dealing damage out from One-Shots. Now Bunker starts catching up in the damage curve when he has 2 weapons and Turret since he is now a bit above average (except for wraith, but eff wraith) and that takes a minimum of 3 turns for it to happen (and rarely does). But if Bunker is able to drop Gatling/Omni (in practice just Omni, but for the sake of argument) he is able to change his early dead-turns-in-terms-of-damage into late game extra damage, getting back on track on the damage curve but outputting abover average, making him shine in this role.

Modes help him towards this goal, Recharge making him draw extra cards and Upgrade allowing him to get into Turret faster when he still needs to play some equipment. But every turn he is in Recharge and Upgarde these are turns he is not dealing damage (outside of Gatling and Combustion) and falling behind the curve (unless an eventual play makes it up). Plus giving up (eventually) the card he could feed as damage.

Ok, so this analysis is in a vacuum. This is detached from an actual game situation. The point of this is that they way to optimize damage with Bunker, ignoring external factors, would be in this vein. That if there is no card destruction (which also affects Bunker more than other Heroes), no wonky draws and no situations that need special evaluation, this would be the optimal way to go. If there is something wrong with this analysis, please chime in! (for everybody). I know in-game situations are not ideal and you have to make the best possible with what you have and that ideal situations don't come up, but understanding when a deck works best is crucial to understand how to tweak it.

Pydro, you said you find Bunker is fine. Good. I find him he is just a tad behind in terms of power compared to other damage dealers. Either in damage or in other areas. IMO Panzer Buster and Engine of war achieve that. Your proposed power that interacts with Environment is also quite cool in that regard.

But much like some here, I'm aiming to connecting his base power to his Mode cards (his unique aspect). While on other Heroes you can just buff his base power (like Fixer or Expat) with Bunker the Mode cards present a limitation if you want them to still be relevant. Besides that in my case, I'm not hot on search powers for him either with his deck structure. That's really limiting. So let's see, let's drop some other limitation like lenght and simplicity. Objective: work into Bunker's draw engine, don't change cards text, connect base power with Modes.

Boot: Draw a card. At the start of your next turn, you may play a Mode card. If you do, draw a card.

Not exactly. Here is the comparison (assuming the second turn):

No Mode:  1 card play, 2 cards, no DR

Recharge Mode: 0 card play, 3 cards 1DR

Your power: 1 card play, 3 cards, no DR.

Why would I ever play Recharge Mode? You are still seeing 3 cards, which is huge, and keeping two. The only thing you are losing is the extra 2 damage if you find Gatling Gun or Omni-Cannon. However, see below about why that is not worth it. The key part is seeing the next 3 cards to setup for a full Turret Mode. Not only are you not losing what cards you are seeing, but you can play the cards you are getting, thus allowing you to get into Turret Mode faster, and do more damage overall.

This is where strongly disagree with you. Potential doesn't mean anything here, only the practical situation. Bunker has only 4 cards in his deck that convert cards to damage. If you don't draw those cards, then nothing mattered before that. Is it worth it to look for those cards draw those cards when you have a hand. The answer is no, it isn't. If you have the cards for a Turret Mode setup ready, it is not worth it to wait a few turns and try to get a card that can turn your hand into damage. You will be doing less damage that way, and Bunker is a damage dealer. Now, if you have Turret Mode, Flak Cannon, Grenade Launcher, and Gatling Gun in your hand ready to be played, Is it worth it to "waste" another turn to play Fatling Gun instead of going straight into Turret Mode? The answer is no, it isn't. I have run the numbers in my guide, and I have already proven that (barring an exceptionally long game). What this means is that the 2 damage is not only incredibly situational, but it isn't even worth going for that strategy if you have the other guns in play. Therefore, Upgrade Mode allows Bunker to play that card "for free" otherwise you shouldn't play it at all. Same for Recharge Mode, if it allows you to get the card, then it wasn't a waste, but it is rarely worth it to go and find the card. And of course if you are going for a Gatling Gun-Omni-Cannon/Recahrge Mode strategy anyways, then of course it isn't a waste. It is allowing you to draw an extra card to fuel the gun each turn while tanking.

See, that was sort of the point. To exchange for an essential but rarely used power, to one that will be used more often. However, it is incredibly useful early game. Playing Recharge Mode on the first turn, and not losing it is incredibly useful. You don't have to wait for other things before you play it, thus making gaining all of its benefits, and then making it more powerful as you draw cards. I am not saying I prefer it, just why it is very powerful and deserves the damage.

Huh, since you have mentioned it, yes, I have read your guide (some time ago) and am aware of your numbers. But thing is we are working on different assumptions. I assume that you start the game with whatever you have and you have to spend an unknown number of turns until you can get what you need to get into Turret. You are assuming that everything I am saying to focus on those turns (for a future payoff) delays Turret mode. I agree that to optimize damage you should aim for the earliest Turret mode possible, but the turns reaching that point shouldn't be dead turns (or better, build up turns). I assume you play Gatling/Omni sometime before you have the final card you need for the Turret set up.

Well, this is a repeat of what was said above. Yes, if you have everything ready you should go for it. But if not the way to optimize damage is to convert cards to damage. On that matter, 6 turns is not an exceptionally long game. On a side note, I consider the damage numbers on only 1 target much more valuable than on several (that is, considering Grenade as 2 damage and +1 from Turret, instead of 5 and a +3) since it's much harder to abstract the situation when you have several targets and have to deal with prioritizing objectives.

Btw, "proven" is a really big fat word to drop around. The problem is the assumptions you are working on. Using your same model but considering playing only Grenade, Omni Cannon and Turret, shooting Omni every turn for 7 damage, it trumps what you have there. Same amount of turns for set up, higher damage output. The problem is the number of turns you can shoot Omni for 7, but still, the number changes considering that. But even then, if you delay Turret 1 turn to add Omni to the set up, it's worth it depending on the number of cards you can ditch into it. Since you count you lose the 3 damage of Flak the turn you shoot Omni plus, say, 4 more from the earlier turn you would have gotten from Flak+Turret, you need to be able to drop more than 3 cards on Omni to make it worthwhile the damage.

Bunker has nice damage, but he is the BEST at something, recovery. Sure the Wraith at full setup can out damage him, Bunker can get setup again much faster after a board wipe then her.
Okay… yeah… no, bad example. Wraith does everything better than Bunker, even that. At least when I'm playing her and I know there's card destruction around, if I don't need to play Impromptu Invention I'll keep it in hand (plus she has Infrared Eyepiece, which helps avoiding wipe-out cards). And compared to other heroes… dunno, unless I have Upgarde, Flak/Grenade/Maintenance, Turret in hand when a wipe happens… dunno, I don't see how he starts dealing damage as fast as others. Maybe it's because I stopped playing Bunker after using him against Omnitron and Dawn when I was getting my first few plays. If someone else is reading these walls of text could support this too? Bunker best recovery?

POWER: Until the end of Bunker's next turn, every time Bunker draws a card, deal 1 target 1 damage.
Uhm… so you deal 1 damage every turn without Mode and 1/2 damage the first turn you get into Upgrade/Recharge. Auxiliary can make up for 4 damage total. I guess it's ok, not what I am focused on though. Helps him early to to contribute though.

Played some dummy hands with both power mentioned before, but this power is the one that worked better:

Reboot: At the start of your next turn, you may play a Mode card. If you do, draw two cards

>

I assume that you start the game with whatever you have and you have to spend an unknown number of turns until you can get what you need to get into Turret. You are assuming that everything I am saying to focus on those turns (for a future payoff) delays Turret mode. I agree that to optimize damage you should aim for the earliest Turret mode possible, but the turns reaching that point shouldn't be dead turns (or better, build up turns). I assume you play Gatling/Omni sometime before you have the final card you need for the Turret set up.

But that is just it, with your suggestion, it doesn't work out like that. You are proposing an extra card when you play a Mode. This won't help at all with Turret Mode (unless you change the wording to draw first), and in Recharge Mode you aren't playing any cards, and you want to leave Recharge Mode once you get your Turret Mode setup (in which case you have to calculate whether or not it is worth playing Gatling Gun). So, the only time you have a chance to use that extra card draw is when you play Upgrade Mode. However, the entire point of Upgrade Mode is to play your cards, and the extra play allows you to play cards you wouldn't normally play. So, your fix to Bunker is to give him an extra 2 damage if he plays Upgrade Mode and he draws a card that he already has. Very limited.

>

Btw, "proven" is a really big fat word to drop around. The problem is the assumptions you are working on. Using your same model but considering playing only Grenade, Omni Cannon and Turret, shooting Omni every turn for 7 damage, it trumps what you have there. Same amount of turns for set up, higher damage output. The problem is the number of turns you can shoot Omni for 7, but still, the number changes considering that. But even then, if you delay Turret 1 turn to add Omni to the set up, it's worth it depending on the number of cards you can ditch into it. Since you count you lose the 3 damage of Flak the turn you shoot Omni plus, say, 4 more from the earlier turn you would have gotten from Flak+Turret, you need to be able to drop more than 3 cards on Omni to make it worthwhile the damage.

Yes, I am aware of the numbers, and I did mention what needs to take place for it to be worth it. The numbers do apply in that case. Playing Omni-Cannon instead of Flak only nets you 3 damage a turn at the cost of three cards. That requires a lot of cards in order to maintain that output. With a hand of 9 cards, you only get that output for 3 turns, something that can easily be made up with Flak Cannon. It is never worth it to draw and delay Turret Mode for specifically that reason. The only time it would be worth it is if it happens to occur. As I said in the guide, if you have the cards, and you are playing a longer game (most likekly at least 7 rounds), then it might be worth it.

>

On that matter, 6 turns is not an exceptionally long game. 

Except that it is a lot more than 6 turns. If you take my example as the start of the game, then you actually won't gain anything with Gatling Gun, because you will run out of cards before it gains on the damage. You would need to be drawing cards for several turn before that just to make it worth it.

However, that isn't the point. The numbers are so close anyways that to say that you can "fix" Bunker by keeping an extra 2 damage is a stretch. If you were saying that you want the extra cards in order to get to a full Turret Mode faster, fine, I can somewhat see that. But to say that Bunker is now fixed with an extra 2 damage that might not even happen, and might not actually increase his damage output and you would have to do a lot of calculations just to prove it, just doesn't help.

>

Okay... yeah... no, bad example. Wraith does everything better than Bunker, even that. At least when I'm playing her and I know there's card destruction around, if I don't need to play Impromptu Invention I'll keep it in hand (plus she has Infrared Eyepiece, which helps avoiding wipe-out cards). And compared to other heroes... dunno, unless I have Upgarde, Flak/Grenade/Maintenance, Turret in hand when a wipe happens... dunno, I don't see how he starts dealing damage as fast as others. Maybe it's because I stopped playing Bunker after using him against Omnitron and Dawn when I was getting my first few plays. If someone else is reading these walls of text could support this too? Bunker best recovery?

I would put Bunker up against Wraith most of the time (ignoring other abilities at present, since we are only talking about damage). Bunker can get setup in 2 turns, which Wraith can too if she uses 2 Impromptu, which means she needs the other two to do it again. If she gets no help, she needs 4 turns (and all 4 cards), while Bunker only needs 3. Bunker can prepare for a board wipe just as fast or faster. However, if you aren't preparing for it, Bunker usually has the extra card draws ready to go regardless. Not to mention Decom Hardware that brings anything back and Ammo Drop that can give him all the cards he needs.

>

Uhm... so you deal 1 damage every turn without Mode and 1/2 damage the first turn you get into Upgrade/Recharge. Auxiliary can make up for 4 damage total. I guess it's ok, not what I am focused on though. Helps him early to to contribute though.

>

Reboot: At the start of your next turn, you may play a Mode card. If you do, draw two cards

I wanted to point out that your suggestion was essentially what I said (Power: Play a Mode card), but with drawing cards (and a little weaker for Turret Mode). And this was your reaction to it:

>

I don't like the other variatons so much, 'play a mode card' overlaps a bit 

In both, you are gaining the extra Mode by using a power, so it isn't in your play phase. Also, You are not eliminating the first turn penalty, since in my version you are playing it a turn sooner. All you added was the card draw, and the abilitiy to play a Mode that you drew the previous turn, at the cost of some damage from Turret Mode.

However, by making the card draw dependent on playing a power, I think you are actually hindering Bunker not helping him. If you don't have a Mode, you get nothing, while Initialize will get you a card and help you get that Mode faster. Every turn that you don't play a Mode, you are actually gaining more cards with his base power. With your power, you can only draw one card a turn unless you play a Mode.

Regardless, all of this gets back to what I said before, it is not about Bunker's weakness, it is about playstyle weakness. This isn't to say that a playstyle is weaker, just that we are trying to fix the "weak" link in our playstyle. According to you, using Gatling Gun and Omni-Cannon is essential to Bunker and your fixes will reflect that. To me, it isn't, which is why it isn't such a big deal. This is why I also feel that we won't reach an agreement, but nothing wrong with that.

And now for something completely different: Instead of "until the start of your next turn," we could try "until Bunker uses another power." This could add in tons of possibilites, and keep it going through Recharge Mode and Upgrade Mode.

For example: "Increase Bunker's damage by one until he uses a power." Gatling Gun now doing 3 damage a turn in Recharge Mode or Upgrade Mode can be huge, but if you decide to use another gun with it, the damage goes down. This can drastically change how Bunnker play and make the other Modes much more useful.

"Reduce damage to Bunker by 1 until he uses a power." This could make him much more of a tank, at the cost of damage.

...and things like that.

Uhm… honestly, I'm not fully understanding what you are saying here. But, from the italics (and what you have said before), I think what you mean there is that it's not worth leaving Recharge until you draw Upgarde, Flak, Grenade and Turret. If that's the case, ok wow, there's little point in continuing the discussion since I won't be able to understand your point. I guess that's what you mean with 'delay' Turret Mode when I mention cards outside of Turret setup. Yeah, dropping that.

Regardless, all of this gets back to what I said before, it is not about Bunker's weakness, it is about playstyle weakness. This isn't to say that a playstyle is weaker, just that we are trying to fix the "weak" link in our playstyle.
This is more BS. If under the same circumstances different decisions yield different result and one affects the game-state more than the other in favour of the heroes, then one decision was better than the other one and the other one was weaker. "Style" is just a way to group a number of decisions with a similar pattern. So yes, you are saying Bunker is on par with other damage-dealing heroes (unlike me) and that I'm not being to able to do so with my decisions playing him, so  I want to "fix" him (you do use the word a lot in your posts). Pretty much the same unrelated quote you commented about Zed, he wanted to rework the Modes since he was doing a faulty valution on their worth.

According to you, using Gatling Gun and Omni-Cannon is essential to Bunker and your fixes will reflect that.
No. According to me Bunker is a tad weaker because he has a slow start and the way to boost him is to make him a bit faster. For helping that cause the focus has been on making his plays/draws smoother while maintaining his shtick, Mode cards. You might be getting this impression since I have criticized Mode cards interaction with Gatling/Omni or my mention that converting cards to damage was the way for him to catch up on other damage based heroes. I might be in the wrong direction, but as said in a previous post, my goal is to make Mode more attractive, work in Bunker's draw engine and don't change card text (as I was doing before).

Yes, Initialize is a more reliable power. But note that I mentioned two different versions of the power, one straight better than Initialize and this other one with a tradeoff. I dummy tried both ones and like this one better, let's say it was more exciting and fun for me and drop it at that and that I recommend to try it out.

I intially typed up a very long post countering each of your points, but now I realize there is point in it if you are going to use language like that. However, there is one thing I want to address, and that is regarding playstyle.

Yes, I chose my words carefully. If someone is looking to change a hero to make them more efficient according to them, then there is a "problem" in their "playstyle" that they are "fixing." Exactly what that "problem" is is dependent on the person themselves, and not just an objective analysis.

Objective analysis is important, but it just doesn't apply here. Can you really calculate the effectivness of Adhesive Foam Grenade? Of course not. There are so many variables that to create an objective analysis and prove what little tweaks can make things overall better would be incredibly difficult. The only people who would even be qualified to talk about it would be the top tier players who already know how to gain every little bit of effectiveness out of Bunker, and I am not sure if there are even players like that.

Most of the players come from the "casual" players. At this level, objective effectiveness means a lot less than playstyle effectiveness. This in no way means that a certain playstyle isn't effective, but rather that the percieved "weakness" is hindering the experience.

I am purposely not taking your "complaints," but I will deal with a common one. Bunker is so slow becuause you need to play: Grenade Launcher, Flak Cannon, Turret Mode, Ammo Drop, Gatling Gun, and Heavy Plating to be fully setup.

Now, from a pure damage standpoint will this get the most damage? Not necessarily. You would have to run the numbers to see if Gatling Gun was worth it, but Heavy Plating wouldn't be. Does this mean that it is less effective? Honestly, I can't say. Maybe Heavy plating will keep Bunker alive longer. Maybe drawing backup cards with Ammo Drop will make him recover faster. Maybe being able to deal 10 damage to a single target in one turn can save the day. There are too many variables to consider. I can make the calculations to see if it deals the most damage the fastest, but that doesn't detract from his overall effectiveness.

Let's say someone feels that the only way to enter Turret Mode is with all of those cards, and he also feels that Bunker is to slow. Does his "playstyle" need a "fix"? Yes. Is this a bad thing? Not in the slightest. The perception of effectiveness based on what you want to accomplish is what needs to be "fixed." This in no way means that a certain playstyle is less effective based on different decisions. Obviously a playstyle can be less effective, but try proving that.

A big part of this idea is the need for a fix and how effective it is. For example, let's say we don't like Bunker's first turn penatly for Recharge Mode. he has his starting hand of 4 cards, plays Recharge Mode, and draws three cards. Bunker is now more effective, but by how much. I am not going to run through all of the numbers, and all of the ideas (like how it might give more damage with Gatling Gun if it is drawn), but here is one set of numbers. Let's say Bunker is looking for 1 specific card, and there are 3 of them in the deck. Now, he ends up drawing 3 cards instead of 2. With only 2 cards he has a 16% chance to find the card he needs, with 3 cards he has a 23% chance. This "fix" gained him 7% chance to find the card he needs. This, also, only happens a few times per game. Did we suddenly find the great balancer that makes Bunker on par with everyone else? Well, if that 7% did it, then Bunker isn't on a different tier. Did this "fix" the problem based on perception and playstyle? Absolutely.

You want to give Bunker a new ability to make him play differently? Great. You want to say that this now "fixes" Bunker's "problems" significantly enough to put him on par with others? I say prove it. You want to show me an abilitiy that is outright better than what Bunker has, and now you want to say he is more effective? I say prove it. Show me what was the actual problem was and how this solution signifcantly fixes it. Will this fix change the preceived problem based on playstyle? Yes, but that is all it does, and that is all we can talk about.

Ok, so (if there are) who would these people be? I honestly would like to ask them about some valuations they make. Personally I value the opinion of some people here higher than others in regards of mechanics; I might be paying attention to the wrong people!

Bunker is so slow becuause you need to play: Grenade Launcher, Flak Cannon, Turret Mode, Ammo Drop, Gatling Gun, and Heavy Plating to be fully setup.
No, Bunker is slow because he needs more turns and plays to contribute as much as other heroes do to the game. His issue is 100% comparison to other heroes.

Did we suddenly find the great balancer that makes Bunker on par with everyone else? Well, if that 7% did it, then Bunker isn't on a different tier.
Fine, so, what is the effectiveness % increase that puts Heroes on one tier or the other? 10%? 15%? 20%? Since you know 7% didn't do it I guess you know or have an estimate on what does.

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Ok, so (if there are) who would these people be? I honestly would like to ask them about some valuations they make. Personally I value the opinion of some people here higher than others in regards of mechanics; I might be paying attention to the wrong people!

Cleary being civil isn't part of this discussion, so I won't continue it.

Bunker's only real problem is the cost of mode cards.

It is also what makes him unique.

As constructed Bunker is a useful hero, but not a top damage dealer, because at some point he chooses to enter turret, and suts down building up unless he got Ammo Drop into play first.

With all his cards in play Bunker is amazing, but it is really hard for him to ever pull that off.

He can not be a solid damage dealer all game and then burst late game.  He is not as quick to get going as the early damage dealing heroes like Ra or Haka, but he doesn't build up as well as AZ or Chrono through to late game.

Bunker is versatile, that is his strength, and the modes show that, you pick a way to play and go with it until you are ready to change that up.

The "Fix" of speeding him up isn't a fix, it is a boost.  Bunker isn't broken.  He isn't Iron Man, he's in a big clunky lowest bid contractor suit that can be amazing if it works right and has time to get going.  Most of the time Bunker isn't the star of the F5, but he is valuable, just not as valuable as many other heroes most of the time.

That's how I came up with my house rule boost to the modes, it drastically speeds up Bunker's mechanics and most of the time knocks him up a tier or two in effectiveness, closer to on par with the rest of the F5, and more reliable than AZ.

If you want a new Bunker power there are many ways to go, one of my favorite we've tried out recently:

Cover Fire

Power:  Reduce damage dealt by villain targets by 1 until the start of your next turn.

It's a Leadership style power that makes him really good (up with Legacy good)  It works thematically and adds something to his deck, alternate powers should change the hero to make them play differently, not to fix their deck to make it more powerful.  Not all heroes are equal.  They all have their roles to play.

Keep in mind, folks: We all have different opinions, and we need to respect those opinions. If we don't agree, that's fine, just accept that we don't agree.

PePe, if you don't agree, say so. Saying someone else's points are "bullshit" is not acceptable. Feel free to disagree, but do it civily.

I'm gonna walk right into a bear trap here...but...

Has anyone tried using Decomishioned Hardware as a Deck+Trash search instead of just a Trash search? 

I haven’t, but speaking with the authority vested in me as a layperson who completely failed statistics class, letting Bunker search his deck seems a bit much, given how many options he has for putting cards in his hand.

Pydro, how do you recover with Bunker? Is it in your guide? My brother just got back from Afghanistan and has been interested in playing him. We just got an apartment along with my girlfriend, and Sentinels has been a great way to spend time together. Recovery with Bunker is always something I have trouble with, and I don’t want his interest to dwindle with the destruction-heavy villains. Any advice, or should I just RTFM your guide? XD

Decomissioned Hardware is your best recovery card. It won’t get you all your stuff back or Ammo Drop, but it can get you back in the game quickly. I think it’s one of the only trash retrieval cards that puts things into play instead of your hand or deck.

I have agreed with this forum topic for a while now, and have become distressed at how infrequently Bunker is being played by our group for the reasons put forward by the OP - the restrictions put on Bunker for him to get the benefit of his Modes aren't much fun.  So, after reading all of the suggestions and feedback, I've decided to make a couple of changes which seem to be working well for us:

1) The general consensus here seems to be that giving the player the option to take the Mode card back into their hand at the beginning of Bunker's turn is better, and I agree.  When I used to have to destroy the card instead, I felt like I'd better get the most out of it first so I'd sit there in a Mode for multiple turns, which usually meant multiple turns not drawing or playing cards, which isn't much fun.  Being able to put the card back into my hand makes me feel like I haven't lost anything when I switch out of a Mode, so I'm more likely to go into a Mode in the first place.

2) The other thing which bugged me about two of the three Modes (Turret's fine) was that you wouldn't actually started getting the full benefits of the play until the turn after you'd played the Mode.  For example, with Recharge Mode, you can draw an additional card on your turn, meaning you get to draw two cards the turn you play the Mode, but the following turn you get to draw three cards because you won't have played a card or used a power.  That always made me feel like I needed to stay in the Mode at least two turns to get the most out of the card, all the while sitting there not playing cards or using powers.  Boring.  Similarly with Upgrade Mode, you get to play an additional card, but on the turn you lay out the Mode card, one of your two card plays consists of the Mode itself so you won't get the full benefit until the following turn.

So, I added the kicker that when Recharge Mode enters play, you immediately draw a card, and when Upgrade Mode enters play you immediately play a card.  This way, the full benefit of the card kicks in immediately, and I don't feel like I need to stay stuck in a Mode doing nothing for turns at a time.

Other than being able to return Turret Mode to your hand at the start of your turn, I made no other changes to Turret Mode.  That one gives a solid benefit the turn you play it.  I've always found it hard to give up the pew pew of Turret Mode so I tended to get stuck in Turret Mode for entire games at a time if I had enough good guns out on the table already, but now that I can put it back into my hand, I'm more likely to switch out then back in as the situation demands, which feels more fun to me.

Here's the funnest part of the Mode changes (for me)... custom cards!  They're the width of two regular cards so they fit across a couple of columns of your cards-in-play, making the Mode you're in really stand out.  The way I use them is whenever I play a Mode card, I pull the appropriate double-width Mode card from the box then slip the Mode card I just played from my hand under it and place them both in my play area.  When I leave the Mode for whatever reason, I put the double-width Mode card back in the box and take the actual card hidden beneath it and put it in the Trash.  Works smoothly.

The image on each is kind of lo-res, but they look good enough to me for now.  At some point I'll bug Christopher for the full-res images and update them.


bunker_alt_modes.jpg734×366 122 KB

Quality work as always Spiff!

I like it.

It functions pretty close to what I've been doing, which is when you return a mode card to your hand you can play a mode card, you don't get the full benefit the first time you enter a mode (if it is recharge or upgrade) but you always get the full benefit when changing modes.

Quick question: With Upgrade Mode, does that mean you get to play three cards the turn it comes into play? (We've always played that, when you play Upgrade Mode, you're still in your play phase so you get another play.)

Yes, when you play the standard Upgrade Mode you're still in your play phase, so you get to lay down another card on that first turn.  But here's the tradeoff on that first turn:

1) Either don't play Upgrade Mode, get to use a power, and play a card you actually want.

2) Or do play Upgrade Mode, don't get to use powers, and then play a card you actually want.

So, on that first turn, Upgrade Mode kind of sucks, and you're really only doing it in anticipation of the following turn when you'll get to play two cards that aren't Upgrade Mode. In my version, I lessen the pain by letting you play two non-Upgrade Mode cards on that first turn.  You still have the no-powers penalty, so it feels fair to me, though others are free to disagree.

Ah - got it!