All CategoriesOther GamesSotM Game Engine › Recommend an H, V, and E for a dissatisfied newbie

Recommend an H, V, and E for a dissatisfied newbie

57 posts · 8783 views · started 2013-11-30 09:47 UTC
EN
Envisioner
2013-11-30 09:47 UTC
#1

So, there's a friend who comes to our game group who I've shown SOTM to once; for her first game, we gave her Haka to play, and we happened to be fighting Iron Legacy for the first time (not really the ideal entry point, in retrospect).  When pitching the game to her, I admitted that if SOTM has a fault, it is that sometimes the game "kind of plays itself", and after IL finished pounding us all into jelly, she agreed that this had been an accurate characterization.  Today I spoke to her again, asking whether she'd try SOTM another time, and she agreed that one game wasn't enough to really judge by.  She said it "wasn't the best superhero game", (which, since she was probably comparing it to the DC Heroes Deckbuilding Game, is obviously ridiculous), but I did admit that starting with Haka would tend to contribute to the impression of simplicity, and she indicated a willingness to try another time, to see if the game would appeal more to her when it wasn't such a quick and straightforward slugfest.

So, now I want to set up a game for her next time, recommending a Hero she can play which will offer her a lot of choices (without being too overcomplected - I'm thinking the Argent Adept is not an ideal choice, for instance), and pick a Villain and Environment which will likewise help to create a favorable impression.  So I'm collecting suggestions on how to construct a game which will be fair, offer her a good sense of autonomy, and not be too complicated.  Off the top of my head, my best guess would be something like Baron Blade in the Tomb of Anubis with her as The Visionary...can anyone come up with a better suggestion?  Blade is not incredibly difficult, but he has some depth and variety with his various Devices and such, and if we play on Advanced, he'll have a good fast clock going to make sure the game offers a credible threat.  ToA is one of the hardest Environments, and in particular gives players several choices (mostly on the Trial cards), so I'm hoping that will reduce the sense of automation that I alluded to.  And while Visionary is probably better played by a slightly more accustomed player, she does at least give the player a LOT of choices (far more than she can routinely use), which is what I was going for here.  The biggest argument I can see against using her is the head-scratching scenario of having Brain Burn in your opening hand and going "why would I ever want to do this", but of course Brain Burn is literally designed to combat Baron Blade, so that's one more reason I think this might be a good match.  And ToA has plenty of dangerous cards to make Mass Levitation a non-dead card, plus the Baron has minions to Wrest and Ongoings to Divergence...I think it should be a fairly solid and well-rounded battle, but I'm certainly listening if someone has a better idea.

JE
Jettosan
2013-11-30 13:43 UTC
#2

Yeah, I burned a few of my friends by giving them Visionary and Legacy as their first hereos, when we fought Akash-buta for the first time. It dragged on forever and they probably never want to play it again (including one who made a blog post about 'How not to make a co-op game', which even further gave Sentinels a bad rep. Don't get me wrong, I like this guy, but that was low. Especially since his blog is rather popular in Poland).

 

First of, heroes. A short list of heroes you should NEVER give to new players

-Absolute Zero: I love him and he can be used properly, but giving someone whose main power is "hurt yourself" is a bad idea, even if you explain it.

-Fanatic: A lot of cards require some forward thinking and preparation, which an new player won't have. Most of the time they'll waste their cards or do nothing, having no fun at all.

-Visionary: Same as Fanatic. We all know how Wrest the Mind and Twist the Ether can dominate the game, but don't expect a newbie to catch that on their first try. My guess is, they'll spend their turns using Mind Spikes and maybe controlling other decks. Not fun.

-Argent: No.

-Nightmist: "Oh cool, I can use spells and stuff! Lets see, this one hurts me... okay, the next one... hurts me even more, the next one doesn't do damage... this one makes me throw away cards and to get them I need to hurt myself more... this one lets me get more spells, which will hurt me... why is she your favourite again?"

-Omni-X: "Oh, cool, I have all those weapons and... wait, they're gone? But he only hit me once, what do you mean...?"

 

And my list of BEST for new players:

-Bunker: Sure he takes time to set-up, but see their grins when you destroy a few Voss minions while Ammo Drop is in play. And when they fire their full powered Omni-cannon at Voss's face.

-Tachyon: "She sucks, there's no damage, I just use those cards and not much happens, when am I going to do something usefu-... wait, Lightspeed Barrage? What's that? Oh. Wow. WOW!"

-Wraith: Let them know to tell you when they draw Improntu Invention. When they do, tell them "congratz, you won". Because they will.

-Haka: Smash. That is all.

-Ra: Burn. That is all.

-Tempest: This guy does EVERYTHING and hardly ever gets a bad card in play.

-Chrono Ranger: Time traveling cowboy with bunch of futuristic weaponry? Awesome. And he's cool to play to.

No words on Expat or Fixer, but I'll say 'NO' to them.

 

Villains, this list is short because anyone from expansions should be left for later. That said:

-Baron Blade: Has everything you need to know about villains, plus he is rather fast to play with.

-Voss: Despite rating 3, he's pretty easy and simple to understand. Especially reccomended when she uses Bunker with Ammo drop.

 

Enviroment: Megalopolis. Just Megalopolis. It's one of the fairest Enviroments, has a bit of everything and thematically, its a giant city, which is easier to imagine then island full of Dinos or 'Realm of Whattheheckisthis'. And it's much more forgiving then Rook City.

MT
Medic-Tank
2013-11-30 13:51 UTC
#3

The character I would recommend as far as giving choices go is Tempest: You get 4 different powers, an incredidible amount of useful one shots, utility cards (into the stratosphere, reclaim from the deep), classic gene bound shackles and even a tanky ongoing... As far as choice goes it's really awesome and the character still will give a smooth ride like a cadillac and be newbie friendly.

 

If you want to kick it up a notch play the argent adept to let her use even MORE options with tempest extra card plays and powers will be appreciated. If you want everybody to have more options in hand get Team Leader Tachyon on the team. Unless your friend is a masochist who likes a real challenge I'd say go with classic Baron Blade. She already knows the destructive power of the game: Iron Legacy so winning a little could hook her more up. Then again you know her more than we do so you'll know what type of characters she'd play.

As far as environment goes I don't have a particullar mindset except volcano matches in insula primalis remain cool while still letting you master your destiny. I also liked Silver Gulch on my first game but that's because gunmen didn't seem to stand the crew more than we did.

MT
Medic-Tank
2013-11-30 13:56 UTC
#4

I don't agree stay the hell away from environments that say anything along the line of don't play cards and don't use powers… You would instantly get the feeling of not controlling the game. Maybe I'm just unlucky but fair is not what comes to mind when I think Megalopolis.

RA
Rabit
2013-11-30 14:02 UTC
#5

Older thread on teaching SotM

It's interesting going back to read that, now, as we've changed how we do things for the "official" demos a little since then. For example, because Megalopolis actually prevents folks from doing things, we don't use it anymore.

AR
arenson9
2013-11-30 14:49 UTC
#6

Different situations are different and different people like different things.

 

While I'm happy to make a general suggestion (Baron Blade; Insula Primalis; Tempest, Ra, Chrono-Ranger, Haka, Fanatic, Tachyon, or Expatriette while someone else plays Legacy), if you know something about the person you're teaching, you can take that into consideration.

 

For instance, if they will be bored with too easy of a game, maybe stack Blade's deck or use Voss instead. If their attention needs to be grabbed right away, stack Insula Primalis so the most exciting dinosaurs are on top. If they will be bored if they don't have a lot to think about in regards their hero, consider the more complicated heroes but with some introduction. I've seen both Absolute Zero and NightMist be grokked immediately by new players. If the new player might be overwhelmed by the analysis of Absolute Zero, by the complexity of Argent Adept, by the obtuseness of The Scholar, and by the self-mutilation of NightMist, they still might enjoy someone like Tachyon if they are primed up front that they have two cards that take advantage of the number of Burst cards in their trash or Bunker if they get an intro to his modes and the advice to make the best of what you've got rather than try for the ultimate combination.

 

Finally, let's talk about The Wraith. She's been called overpowered, she doesn't get called very complicated, yet she rarely comes up in discussions of heroes to give to new players. She has a reasonable amount of direct attacks, so I think even new players that might not appreciate her other capabilities as much will have something to do. For someone who might get bored with a more straightforward damage dealer, I think The Wraith would be an excellent choice. Plus, female, and I think it reasonably likely to appeal to a female gamer to get to play a non-exploitative female hero.

GR
grysqrl
2013-11-30 14:51 UTC
#7

Heroes: I usually have new players choose between Wraith, Tempest, Ra, or Haka. The first two give them a lot of choices but don't require a ton of planning; the last two let them do a whole mess of damage, which new players often enjoy.

Environment: Never Megalopolis. It's relatively simple, but there's just way too much of: "Wait, what can't I do this turn?". I want new players to feel energized and inspired, not shut down. I usually play in The Block or Silver Gulch. They are easy to explain, relatively simple in terms of mechanics, and they give the players more things to do rather than taking them away.

Villains: I always have them play regular Baron Blade first. His mechanics are fairly straightforward. He's got a compelling storyline that you can relate in about a minute. And the reveal when he flips is great. I don't tell them about the front/back side mechanic beforehand, so they don't know that he'll pull himself out of the wreckage and start chasing after the heroes until it happens.

My aim is usually for the first game to be quick - to get comfortable with the mechanics. I let them make all the mistakes they want while facing Blade. After we steamroll him anyway, the next question is: "Ok. Now do you want to try a more challenging battle?" The answer is nearly always an enthusiastic yes.

PH
phantaskippy
2013-11-30 15:18 UTC
#8

I'd go with Tachyon.

Tachyon gives a lot of options, and with a few good cards (HUD) starts to get really fun.  Just don't play as Legacy, he gives people the idea that Tach is a wicked damage dealer in the wrong way.

Tempest is also a great option.

Villain I'd go Voss.  He doesn't have the ongoing cards that you want to destroy, but killing him never gets old, and every once in a while he steamrolls you right when you think you are okay, just don't go advanced with a tachyon because she never gets to deal damage.

Environment Insula Primalis:  Dinosaurs and Alien invaders, obsidian fields making everything nasty, it has card destruction and things that eat minions for you that you ned to plan for.

 

For other heroes I'd throw in a Fixer, it is so easy to teach the game when you are fixer, you don't dominate the game, but with a timely grease gun or riveting crane, or alternating+hoist chain you can set others up for a win.

If there are other players, give someone else Haka, she saw him before, let someone shine with him, he is simple, but smashing things is still fun, and groundpound is a great super power to help a new player win without feeling like the villain was nerfed.  Alternately go Tempest or Expat here.

Lastly throw in Visionary.  Play her yourself and save reordering the villain deck for times when things are bad, don't dominate the game, just help others find the right cards, mitigate the nasty situations, and resist taking over and crushing the life out of Voss with your huge brain.

MC
McBehrer
2013-11-30 15:53 UTC
#9

Wraith, Tachyon, Fanatic, Tempest, Unity (depending on the villain; NEVER against Plague Rat), and the like are all good.

I like Insula Primalis for an environment, and pick a basic villain, like Voss or Apostate.

AR
arenson9
2013-11-30 16:22 UTC
#10

 

Apostate basic? When the gauntlets come out, you've got to keep track of the extra attacks. You've got to watch out for cards pulling other cards out of the trash/deck – extra work both in terms of keeping track of what's going on and in planning for what may come. You've also got to deal with all of that damage reduction, a pain to be sure, but also another reason it's important to plan for what may come.

MC
McBehrer
2013-11-30 16:31 UTC
#11

Well, maybe Basic was the wrong word to use. Maybe middle-ground. He's not a super-long game like La Capitan, but he's not super-short like Iron Legacy. He's easier than most "difficult" villains, but more of a challenge than Baron Blade. He's more complex than Ambuscade or Akash'Bhuta (kill everything), but given that the only major strategy is "kill the Relics FIRST, THEN kill him" makes him a lot more simple than, say, the Chairman, The Matriarch, Dawn, Omnitron, The Ennead, The Dreamer, or Miss Information.

 

He teaches basics of important strategery and tough decisions, without being nearly the ball-busting experience some of the other villains can be for new players. Plus, if there are experienced players as well, odds are they won't want to do someone SUPER easy, like Blade. I only do Blade when I'm the only veteran in the group.

NA
NAL0781
2013-11-30 16:54 UTC
#12

I haven't see Expat much and given the current printing of Rook City I'm not sure how available she is but I have had nothing but good luck in introducing new players with her.  Bonus points if you have a female player.  I would definitely stay away from the Visionary she has a terrible track record with new people.

 

For villains, Blade is always a good choice, but I must say I also think Ambuscade works well.  I don't know, I guess I really like his playstyle.

 

As far as Environments I have to second Insula Primalis.  Another one that I've used is the Realm of Discord, as it is kind of neat as the effects tend to change each turn with only being able to have 1 distortion in play at a time.  Also, people tend to really dig the art in the Realm of Discord.

 

Good luck with whatever your choice is.

MC
McBehrer
2013-11-30 17:22 UTC
#13

I actually really liked Visionary when I played as her as a beginner, but I'm kind of weird that way. I like the supporters.

Other good environments include Discord, Atlantis, and the Time Cataclysm. It's still one of my favorites.

CH
Chaosmancer
2013-11-30 18:24 UTC
#14

I introduced my cousin to the game on Thanksgiving. We played a whole lot of games (Voss, The Chairman, and Plague Rat stomped us, we crushed Spite, Ennead, and Omnitron) and throughout them all he used Mr. Fixer plus another hero (I controlled a third hero, environment, and villain). He absolutley fell in love with Fixer because every time he'd draw driving mantis and redirect. It was ridiculous how often 3-1 (he also tended to draw the wrench) damage was thrown about and he fell in love with being able to force someone to punch themselves in the face when they were trying to hit him. Spite in particular really despised him.

EN
Envisioner
2013-11-30 20:21 UTC
#15

Despite having known this lady for many years, I don't feel that I know her well enough to guess too much about her preferences.  Offhand the only one of her favorite games I can think of is Corsari/Igo (she also plays Lost Cities a lot, but I think her boyfriend is much more into that than she is, and she likes Uptown but I don't know anything about it), and I can't think of how to translate that into a SOTM playstyle.  I second the decision that Megalopolis is a bad choice; I've often regarded it as a decent teaching environment, but certainly not for a player who's already become a little bored (our first game was in The Block, which I consider the "safest" environment, but it might have been an unwise choice for this reason).  I also think that Chrono-Ranger, while possibly quite appealing, would cause option paralysis in the early game if she drew a search card in his opening hand - she has seen someone else play him, but I doubt she was really studying what other players were doing while trying to follow the game herself for the first time.

I've got an extremely smart friend who started with Absolute Zero and grokked him within a few turns, and one of his buddies enjoyed playing Legacy in his first game and Omnitron-X in the second.

Based on some of the advice so far, I'm thinking I'll offer her a choice between Tempest, the Wraith, and maybe one other hero I haven't decided on, Bunker perhaps.  Then I'll let her choose whether we should fight Baron Blade or Warlord Voss, and if she chooses Blade I'll make it advanced (he's just too much of a wimp otherwise, plus the clock gives the game some real pressure).  I'm not feeling Insula as an environment, but perhaps I'll suck it up and use that one, since I can't come up with a better idea.  I suppose I could offer the choice between it and the Tomb....

TS
Theta_Sigma
2013-12-01 06:25 UTC
#16

I'm particular to Realm of Discord, since it does interesting play effects, but it can be difficult for new players.

DR
Drakossozh
2013-12-01 08:16 UTC
#17

When I introduce people to the game, I use the following combinations :)

Heroes:

Wraith- she's my go to intro hero, precisely because she can do everything. Plus, it gives the feel for the game better than most other heroes.

Ra- if I feel like they just want to win

Tempest- another simple one :)

 

Villain:

BB- same as everyone else!

GW- To make them feel good about themselves :))

Rat- Fast paced intro game :)

 

Environment:

Megapolis

Insula Primalis

EN
Envisioner
2013-12-01 09:58 UTC
#18

It's not her first game, though, it's her second.  I'm not trying to introduce her; I'm trying to get her hooked.

PH
phantaskippy
2013-12-01 16:20 UTC
#19

For that I almost always go Tachyon.

Tachyon is fun, fast and powerful.  She can destroy cards, nuke, shut down damage and just overall wins.

Voss is a great enemy to use, since he can stop Tachyon's 1 damage shots with Guard (again, don't go advanced) and with Primalis and Voss not having any ongoing you need to destroy quick Primalis becomes a great target for blinding speed, while also bringing some insanity to the game.  A field or two gets out and Tachyon gets to be an epic destroyer, but so do the minions.

It is simply a great combo for a simple yet fun and dangerous feeling time.

AM
Ameena
2013-12-01 20:16 UTC
#20

Technically, destroying Forced Deployment quickly is something you might want to do - if it comes out, the earlier you can get rid of it in a round, the more turns you have before it gets around to Voss's turn and you get beaten up by all the remaining Minions ;).

EN
Envisioner
2013-12-01 23:52 UTC
#21

With ten minions in the trash, Forced Deployment is an instant win for Voss if not killed before his turn, isn't it?

MA
Matchstickman
2013-12-02 00:13 UTC
#22

Nope.

Do the start of turn effects in the order they entered play.

Voss checks for win conditions, then Forced Deployment brings back minions from the trash.

You have until the next start of villain turn to reduce the number of minions below 10.

 

If you're talking about destroying Forced Deployment during a hero turn, then all the heroes that come after the destroy effect can attack the minions to take them below the magical number 10, if you can't do any damage then yes, you have destroyed Forced Deployment in order to let Voss win!

AM
Ameena
2013-12-02 13:27 UTC
#23

I was referring to if you have a lot of Minions in the trash and Forced Deployment comes out, it's in your interest to nuke it ASAP so that you hav the rest of the round to subsequently nuke as many Minions as possible. Otherwise you are guaranteed for all of them to attack you at the end of Voss's turn. If you can bring them out on the first hero's turn and have the other heroes (and/or that hero as well) take out as many as you can, you'll get less of a beating (or none at all, obviously, if you can take them all out).

BR
brytehfryguy
2013-12-02 17:41 UTC
#24

Have her play Tempest against Voss. That fight lets you feel awesome and powerful but also lets you give her some of the comic book backstory with the nemesis stuff.

EN
Envisioner
2013-12-02 21:49 UTC
#25

I don't think she's really into comics, so I'm not sure she'd appreciate the nemesis rule; it might just make for excess complexity.

BR
brytehfryguy
2013-12-02 22:09 UTC
#26

If she's not into the fluff of games, then tachyion gives her nice big numbers, I suppose.

KA
Katsue
2013-12-04 22:57 UTC
#27

I'm wary of giving Tachyon to a new player, because she's shut down very hard by DR1, and she has too many microdecisions.

MC
McBehrer
2013-12-04 23:02 UTC
#28

Tachyon was the first hero I ever played as, and I would strongly recommend her. Her microdecisions aren't NEARLY as game-affecting as, say, AZ's or Argent's.

KA
Katsue
2013-12-04 23:20 UTC
#29

That's what makes them microdecisions. But actually, they can be a big deal, because new players seem to love to discard cards like Blinding Speed. I've had bad experiences with giving her to newbies twice, which is two times too many as far as I'm concerned. Oh, and I certainly don't give Argent Adept to new players. I'd give a new player NIghtmist before giving them AA.

EN
Envisioner
2013-12-04 23:22 UTC
#30

On the other hand, Argent seems like a good one to include in a game with a newbie, as long as the newbie doesn't play him.  You get to tell the newbie to do extra things all the time, which is even better than telling them to deal +1 damage or healing them for a point.

SI
Silverleaf
2013-12-05 07:13 UTC
#31

I disagree about Argent. His turns take ages, and can give a new player the false impression that the game's complicated and fiddly when (mostly) it isn't.

i completely glaze over when someone starts explaining their chain-y Argent turn, and I like to think I know the game pretty well by now. 

AM
Ameena
2013-12-05 13:48 UTC
#32

The first hero I played (when someone introduced me to the game) was Wraith. We were given a choice of heroes and I went with her because her pocture looked like the kind of character I tend to play - sneaky-stabby types. Plus I thought her name was cool. We played three games, I think, and I stuck with Maia for each one. I didn't find her difficult to play and I managed just fine so I'll say that she's good for a new player (even more so if the villain has no equipment destruction). Otherwise Tempest is another good one, with a load of effects spread over different card types so he should hopefully never get shut down completely by having his stuff destroyed or whatever.

The couple of friends I've introduced to the game I've given Ra because he's so straightforward, while I've played a couple of other heroes to show off what other kind of stuff various characters are capable of. For the last person I introduced to the game, I gave him Ra and myself Legacy and Dark Visionary, so I could control the villain and environment decks nicely whilst buffing my friend and letting him feel uber by nuking everything (Blade in Insula Primalis, just so you know). But he picked Tachyon in the next game (possibly Omnitron somewhere, I think) and I can remember him pulling off a nice combo of several cards in his final turn, culminating in a Lighstpeed Barrage or two which finished the game and he said he felt epic (I can't remember who I was playing, though), so that was nice :).

RA
Rabit
2013-12-05 14:12 UTC
#33

This.

In demos/introductions I've run and seen, when an experienced player takes someone like AA or OX, someone with lots of options, it definitely has a negative effect on the new folks. I've heard people justify it by saying they know the hero well enough they can play him pretty quickly, but that isn't the issue - in fact, that's even worse, because the poor new folks can't even follow what the experienced player is doing, so they don't actually get to understand the interesting complexities.

SI
Silverleaf
2013-12-05 15:39 UTC
#34

During the game day in London in October I taught the game to two new players who took Ra and Tachyon under Arenson's recommendation. We were joined by two non-newbie players, one of whom played O-X for the first time and the other chose Unity.  I grabbed Legacy, and everything worked quite well

I don't think Omni caused a problem really since we were all very good at explaining quickly what our cards did and separating our turns out into phases, but that may have also had something to do with fighting Blade in Insula Primalis with only a little of my attention taken up by Legacy.

SI
Silverleaf
2013-12-05 15:40 UTC
#35

I'm perfectly willing to accept that that particular occasion was an anomaly though. 

EN
Envisioner
2013-12-05 22:37 UTC
#36

Perhaps if I play Argent non-optimally, prohibiting myself from Supertonicking himself to get a chain going, and instead only giving the extra powers and card plays to my friend.  That strikes me as a valid playstyle which doesn't incredibly cripple him, it just means he's being more of a teamster instead of doing the "Jerk Legacy" thing and exclusively helping himself.  The same logic can apply to Visionary; I tend to Enlighten myself, but I can also use her to make a new player feel more awesome.

PH
phantaskippy
2013-12-06 05:30 UTC
#37

I'm the opposite with vis, I almost never use enlighten on myself, since I almost always have something to do and others usually need cards.  I generally dislike enlightening myself at all, I usually wait till I get Foresight and everyone else rolling, then I foresight myself when appropriate.

NA
NAL0781
2013-12-07 03:28 UTC
#38

I tend to remove the first two alphabetical heroes in my box (Absolute Zero and Argent Adept, The) when introducing to non-gamer newbies.  If they like the game, I'll introduce them in the second.  Everyone else is fair game to me.

 

Caveat: I haven't introduced to new people in a while because I've gotten a pretty good group hooked already and they are upset that I brought up the new expansion last month even though it was four months away.

OA
Oaktree
2013-12-07 04:26 UTC
#39

I had a first time player choose to play The Scholar.  Worked out fairly well actually since he caught onto using elemental forms and the "tank" version of Scholar is pretty straightforward.  So he stayed close to top HP, caused damage or did support with the one-shots and powers and had a pretty good time.  Post-game I showed him how the Energy form could really dish damage.

I tend to handle Legacy and play support, though I am beginning of thinking of using Team Leader Tachyon.  That allows me to show some of the tactics without being overpowering, and giving players extra draw cards can help them handle discard requirements, see more of a hero's deck, and for some heroes help "fuel" options like the various Haka 'haka' cards.

I do keep AZ out of initial plays, and don't have AA yet.

LY
lynkfox
2013-12-07 06:48 UTC
#40

late to this party, but agree with everything Rabbit said

 

NEVER Metrolopolis. Insula Primalis is a great starting envi, and hey. Who doesn't love Dionsaurs?

 

Baron Blade. Stack his other two MDPs on the bottom of the deck.

 

You play legacy. It makes you be able to give out buffs that make other players feel stronger.

 

Select from Wraith, Expat, Fanatic, Bunker, and Tempest, Tachyon - push towards Tempest ;), but all of those heroes have a solid theme that is easy to quickly grasp - wraith is the hardest of the bunch, but only because she has a lot of deck search which means time taken reading cards they don't know

EN
Envisioner
2013-12-07 08:34 UTC
#41

Well, it may be moot - I brought the subject up again and she sounded uninterested.  Granted, it probably doesn't help that the only way I can get her to remember which game I'm talking about is to remind her of what she didn't like about it.  She says she prefers DC Heroes, which IMO isn't that good a game.  Perhaps I should offer her a bargain - I'll play DCH if she plays SOTM?

SI
Silverleaf
2013-12-07 18:54 UTC
#42

Same. One guy I taught is a very experienced boardgamer and he was drawn to the Scholar right away. He looked through the deck first and immediately spotted the two main strategies (i.e. tank with Flesh to Iron or hit stuff with Solid to Liquid and Mortal Form to Energy) and played very successfully, even switching strategies mid-game. A less experienced new player took Ra. 

So I guess it's important to be able to judge your new players a bit. The Scholar player would have probably been bored with the simplicity of Ra while the Ra player loved doing lots of damage and was extremely pleased to be able to make us all immune to the volcano that ultimately took out the villain.

I reckon the first guy would have coped fine with AZ or Nightmist too, but most people wouldn't. 

EN
Envisioner
2013-12-08 09:35 UTC
#43

I have seen two players start with Absolute Zero and neither of them had any problems.  But I would definitely never give him to a newbie who hadn't asked for him (in one case, after I specifically described him as a difficult character).

HO
HotHeart
2013-12-09 00:11 UTC
#44

Speaking as a relative novice and in my experience with my friends, it's best to try and keep things as simple as possible. They didn't get hooked like I did, but did enjoy the odd game depending on what hero they played and the only frustrations were when too many variables came into play (different strokes for different folks there though) usually thanks to the environment and all sorts of minions. While I doubt you'd have any trouble running the game, it would probably help not to overwhelm newer players when it comes to considering the trickier effects (redirects and other possible odd chains, for example).

When we played last, I also demoed Iron Legacy, explaining that he was pretty evil (we'd won every game before that) and they got fed up with figuring out all the different plays ("So, with this next ongoing we deal the damage to ourselves? OK, let's see what the modifiers are there…", "If I play this card, do I still take the damage first?", "I guess I just don't do anything this turn…", "Player with the highest HP takes this, then the player with the lowest…ugh" ) I know it's pretty basic for experienced players, but it kills the flow for newer ones.

For my first ever game, I really enjoyed Tempest, purely because you did have all those options at your disposal. I think most newer players want to get involved more in dealing damage, but perhaps not have it too simplified like with Ra. Tempest seems to cover everything here. Or possibly even Wraith once she gets going. And, of course, everyone loves Batman. :stuck_out_tongue:

One (smart) friend who played a good Visionary in his second game, didn't enjoy it that much, but really enjoyed his third game as Absolute Zero because once he was set up, he could easily wipe a load of Voss' minions in a single turn (and I spent a good deal of the game tanking as Legacy, which was cool) but I'm not sure he'd suit most people. It could be useful to have him in a game to show off the more high-level play without getting too complex, however. Same goes for Visionary, really.

All I know is that nearly all my friends found Legacy, Ra, Mr. Fixer and Expatriette too samey; Visionary too non-aggressive(!); and Unity too slow to get going. Others I haven't mentioned never really got to the table because my friends always wanted to use the randomizer (really not a good idea for beginners, I don't think, and definitely didn't help their enthusiasm) or I didn't have some of the expansions earlier on.

Now, obviously, my friends aren't necessarily the typical bunch, but they seem to match what I would consider a blind assessment.

So, that said, I would probably go with something like you as Legacy, them as Tempest or Wraith (but both in the game), and Visionary, in order to get a decent mix. Possibly add AZ or substitute him for Wraith - not sure on that one.

Villain-wise, like I said, I think getting bogged down with minion or other effects could kill things until they're more experienced and appreciate the nuances of the game; though Dawn might be manageable and has interesting flip mechanics (minion-pairing shenanigans could be a problem though?). Omnitron or Baron Blade are safe starters because they still have that variety without being too complex.

As for the environment, I'm not too sure as I don't actually have experience with all of them yet, nor do I have Infernal Relics, to which I've seen folks make reference. As far as I can recall, Insula Primalis and Ruins of Atlantis keep you on your toes. Time Cataclysm is fun and might help liven things up.

Hope some of that massive ramble helps. :stuck_out_tongue:

MC
McBehrer
2013-12-09 05:32 UTC
#45

In my experience, Voss is a much safer first game than Dawn; yeah, there are a lot of minions, but they are pretty uniform in HP and effects. Plus it introduces new players to the concept of "yeah, you're going to get beat up. It happens" without surprising them with game-stopping effects like Citizen Sweat, Tears, Truth, etc.

EN
Envisioner
2013-12-09 05:56 UTC
#46

I would definitely not peg Dawn for an almost-beginner, she's much too complex and varied, although I think she's definitely good for hooking a player whose interest has already been piqued.  And having played Absolute Zero just the day before yesterday, I found that my playstyle with him is founded in a thorough and somewhat manic comprehension of how he chains; I wouldn't envy someone trying to follow what I'm on about when in that mode.  However, Legacy just plain bores me to tears, so I doubt I could stand to play him.

SI
Silverleaf
2013-12-09 08:51 UTC
#47

I consider being slightly bored with Legacy an acceptable sacrifice if it makes the new person's game more fun and thus makes them more likely to want to play in future. I don't mind taking one for the team. 

JF
jffdougan
2013-12-09 15:20 UTC
#48

Exactly, Silverleaf. I've arrived at a point where my standard recommendations for first-time players are anybody in the Freedom Five, plus Ra and Tempest. I'll usually play Legacy if there's a new player in the game and vary my picks otherwise. I can play most of the core set heroes except Fanatic and Visionary effectively.

HO
HotHeart
2013-12-09 19:48 UTC
#49

That's a good call actually. I must admit I haven't played in a while now, and not against Voss for longer still, so I wasn't 100% on all the ins and outs. I think the minions are relatively straightforward. Plus, who doesn't want to repel an alien invasion?

 

Exactly. That was my thinking, I guess I should've clarified that. Besides that, using him with the others I mentioned, gives you a bit more diversity and you can show off stuff like protecting teammates from environmental damage (among other things).

TS
Theta_Sigma
2013-12-10 01:00 UTC
#50

Legacy is also great for showing how the characters can interact, which I find is really important to show earlt.

 

I also actually enjoy playing as Legacy, not hugely important, but it does help!

HO
HotHeart
2013-12-10 18:00 UTC
#51

Agreed, it's definitely a nice, simple way of showing it. Plus, you can sort of take a leadership role without trying to play other people's turns for them (which can always be tempting when you're more experienced).

PH
phantaskippy
2013-12-11 02:34 UTC
#52

That is the one drawback to paying Visionary with Newbies.  Visionary and Adept are the most susceptible to falling into telling others what to do.  Often because your actions can create awesome chains, but only if others play along right.

I always cringe when a new player looks at me and asks "What should I do?"  My answer typically involves a huge list of options, and what others can do and what the end result would be, so I've begun trying to bounce it back to them by giving a little more info on the hero they are playing and hoping that helps them figure it out.

 

BR
BrotherDusk
2013-12-11 03:06 UTC
#53

I've been in that kind of situation, where the new player is overwhelmed by choices.  I'm usually afraid talking about what they are "supposed to be doing" will make them think there are right and wrong answers as far as card plays, and thereby make them more nervous.  Typically I'll just tell them to take as long as they need to read all their cards and reread the back of the rulebook (Play a card, use a power, draw a card to end your turn).  That explanation can vary a little when they need to know the difference between ongoings, equipment, and one-off cards, though.

I find most people will figure out the general idea behind any one character about the time they've seen and read 10 of their cards (usually the opening hand and 5/7 turns).  Yeah, they won't get the minute details, but learning those is the draw to playing more.  If they don't want to learn those details, then this game might just not be for them.

RA
Rabk
2013-12-11 21:18 UTC
#54

I strongly recommend not using TLT in an introductory game, mostly because of:

Think about a newbie trying to figure out her next play whilst holding half of Tempest's deck in her hand. You may as well just play an IRL End of Days when you ask about a second game after overwhelming her with analysis paralysis in her first. I've run into this problem when playing TLT at a table with experienced SotM players who know their decks well. 

(Yes, certain gamers would not struggle with an overabundance of options in their first games, but they tend to be the exception rather than the rule.)

DA
danmarshall14
2013-12-30 18:32 UTC
#55

Hey Envisioner,

 

I've had the most success giving newer players Tempest, Tachyon, and Visionary (depending on their personalities/preferences).  Tempest always feels like he's being relevant, with several powers and ongoings that hit several enemies.  Have someone on your team play Legacy and give him a damage buff and your friend is sure to enjoy swatting down minions like flies.  Tachyon is in a similar vain; she always feels like she's doing something.  She can typically play a lot of cards in a turn which makes your turns feel more fun, and once you get ahold of her "count your burst cards" attacks, it can be a blast racking up a big hit.

 

Visionary is a little different; I'd let her use her if she wants something more complicated than Tempest/Tachyon, yet is okay having control rather than dealing damage (most of my friends hate Visionary because they don't find deck manipulation fun; they'd rather be bursting down minions with Ra).  But on the rare instance you get someone on your team who likes that sort of gameplay, Visionary is perfect for them.

 

When choosing an environment, I say Silver Gulch.  It's thematic and a little cheeky, yet is pretty balanced in terms of aiding/hurting the players.

 

For bosses, I'd say someone who is easier, yet still provides some fun twists.  Voss and his Forced Deployment can cause a complete "Oh ****!" moment for everyone, creating a fun yet tense moment as you all pool your heads together to figure out how to deal with the impending army.  Baron Blade has a little bit of everything; he creates a dramatic early game with his moon beam (and if your friend plays Visionary, she'll have fun using her deck manipulation to put the Villain trash on the bottom of the deck) and has enough threatening cards to create a good, medium difficulty.

 

Others that can be fun are Gloomweaver (easy, but thematically awesome with his zombies and cultists and relics) and Apostate, though don't let her use Tempest against him since he has a few ways to get -1 damage, which can make it boring.

 

P.S. We still need to do a Minneapolis Sentinels meetup sometime.  I've been crazy busy in the last month or so, starting my new job.  But hopefully that can happen soon.

EN
Envisioner
2013-12-30 22:46 UTC
#56

Might be easiest for you to come to GPS.  It's happening this Saturday.

DA
danmarshall14
2013-12-31 15:17 UTC
#57

 

I'll shift the conversation over to this thread:
 

https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/minneapolis-gamers-4325

 

Which is probably a more appropriate place for it.  But long story short, this Saturday is a big maybe due me hosting some friends who need a place to stay while they're in town for the weekend.  Never know though; plans could change.