Legacy + Galvanize = Boring

Just picked up all of SotM (Excluding Rook City which seems ot be sold out everywhere) a few weeks ago so I am a bit fresh. I always play with my brother and we control two characters each. He often prefers playing Tempest, while two of my favorites are Fanatic and Chrono-Ranger although we've tried nearly every hero at least once each.

After playing a bit, Legacy seems to be by far the best support hero in the game to the the point of being almost balanced. Especially with Tempest and Chrono-Ranger style heroes who have many small 1 or 2 damage shots. Others are good, but combine galvanize with the damage he can soak and he's just insane. He easily doubles the damage of the team just by existing and is almost required for characters like Fanatic who are utterly crippled by DR.

There seems to be no situation where Legacy does not want to galvanize, which makes him rather boring to play. He gets five second turns where he plays one card and galvanizes. The only times he gets to do something intersting is when he draws the Legacy ring, because he can galvanize and hit something with his other power (Although of the many times we've played him I've only drawn this once). Half his deck might as well be blank cards most of the time because he won't ever be using those powers. We're always trying to shuffle him off onto one another because neither of us wants to play him (due to boring turns) but we both want him around simply because of how insanely overpowered he is with galvanize and inspiring presence (If he starts with this in his hand it's practically an "I Win" button assuming it doesn't get destroyed).

I really can't think of a team that wouldn't double their chances of winning with galvanize around. It has few down-sides, which are almost entirely negated by the fact that it just increases everyones damage so much. So essentially I find Legacy to be overpowered, poorly designed, and because of his simplicity and the fact that his most powerful ability is innate and more or less never bad it makes him just dull to play. Althought this is exactly what I would expect from a superman character (Overpowered, rediculous to kill, incredible boring) so maybe it's intentional.

With Legacy: Easy Mode

Without Legacy: Hard Mode

Am I missing something with Legacy and he's really not as overpowered as he seems or is he just THAT silly?

According to the statistics, Legacy is among the most effective heroes with I think the second highest win percentage, with the top one being the promo America's Greatest Legacy. Whether he's boring or not really depends on the player. I have a friend who loves playing Legacy and making everyone else better. I'd say what balances him is that most of the time he doesn't directly do damage himself. If your team isn't able to do damage for some reason, whipacorn, Ethereal Bonds, then the Galvanize won't help you as much. Also, two of his best support cards, Heroic Interception and Take Down, do require him to take quite a bit of damage, though generally their effects are worth the price.

Poorly designed?

Next Evolution+Lead from the front = he can be a tank.

Hey look, a different way to play the same character!

Bolster Allies, Surge of Strength and Motivational Charge = damage villains and helps heroes.

Hey look, a second different way to play the same character!

Legacy Ring so he can combine any two of the three ways mentioned?

Hey look, multiple different tactics to play the same character depending on what is needed!

And damage boosting while hero and/or villain cards cause you to hit yourself =/= easy mode. Legacy can easily be a detriment for some combinations of heroes. I pretty much hate Legacy with Inspiring Presence+Galvanise when playing Tachyon.

You may not like him, you may not have the most fun when you play as him, those accusations may even hold some truth. But poorly designed? *shakes head sadly*

(And I just saw "played each hero at least once". https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/flamethrower49s-strategy)

Also, you have to remember that Legacy is an entry level hero; level Zero, so to speak. He's supposed to be simple :) Also, one situation where Galvanize may not be the best thing ever would be a game with NightMist there :) In games against the Chairman, you would rather use NE than Galvanize too :)

Have you tried Legacy against the Plague Rat? +1 damage is definitely not something you want there...

Any villain that makes you damage yourself? Galvanize is a bad plan. Heroes that damage themselves? Gotta be careful. Legacy can also tank or damage, and his villain deck control is very good. If all that is still not to your fancy, there are in fact two promo Legacies that have different powers and can change up the plays.

Drakossozh - Zed says he doesn't have Rook City, so Plague Rat isn't an option, but he and Miss Information are probably the two villains who result in your hitting yourself the most often (off the top of my head).

As mentioned, Nightmist is another one who doesn't always tend to appreciate damage buffs. Ab'Zero also hits himself, but I suppose with him, buffs would be a benefit based on how he works. Same with Fanatic (especially if you have Wrathful Retribution in-hand).

If you're getting bored with Legacy, I would suggest either playing him differently (a few methods have been suggested above), or just don't play with him at all for a while and give some other heroes a chance to show you their stuff :).

Legacy is boring.

Not poorly designed.

He's a boring guy, he gets up, eats Breakfast, reads the paper, says goodbye to his wife and goes to work like it's the 1950's.

At work he stands in the way of punches, trains, missiles, bullets and lasers.  He tells everyone else "Go on, do better!" and they do.

I'd actually suggest not having him in the game for a while.  His tanking with Next Evolution is wicked and with many villains can nearly gaurantee victory if the villain can't destroy his cards.  Galvanize as you have found out is just ridiculous (second most powerful base power to the incredible team leader ability Tachyon has.

If you do want him around but a more fun version check out the Young Legacy and Greatest Legacy versions, they give you a different base power.

Legacy is pretty much Super Man with more patriotism and mortality (somehow).  He is exactly the same each game you play, although sometimes he has a little extra spring in his step and gets to do a bit more.

When I say poorly designed I don't mean poorly designed in that he's not effective (he's extremely effective in that he can tank tons of damage and increase the teams damage). I mean he's poorly designed in that he doesn't often have many options in what he's going to do (Galvanize, Galvanize, some more Galvanizing).

I understand he has other ways of being played, but these often go un-played with us simply because Galvanizing constantly seems to be way more effective. Yes you can play Legacy other ways, but I'm always the type that tries to maximize my use of a character and… well galvanize is nearly always the more attractive option.

Tachyon is indeed one of the few cases where the self damage is purely negative. In most cases of galvanize having the hero hit themselves (Fanatic's Divine Focus, Nightmist can redirect although it hurts her a bit early game, Absolute Zero gets more healing/damage come to mind) the outgoing damage gain really is much more of a boon than the extra self-damage is a detriment. I have very rarely found cases where using Next Evolution is more helpful to the group than the insane damage increase Galvanize offers. I'll have to look into this more though and it may become a better looking option when Inspiring Presence is on the field.

What I'm getting is A: Maybe I just need to try Legacy with a larger variety of heroes, ones that don't benefit so heavily from Galvanizes damage boost, and try some different playstyles with him (With heroes like Tempest, Chrono-Ranger, Fanatic, Ra, and Wraith in the party Galvanize is silly). B: Short of that just not playing him again for a long time.

And yes I have read the majority of the guides posted in that thread.

Could always try a Legacy, Nightmist, AZero, Golem Unity team. Gonna have to time your Galvanizes there certainly!

It is hard to pass up Galvanize, no doubt. I do not think there would be too much debate over what hero possess the best innate power in game (though grandpappy leggy might have a good case). There are absolutley more engaging decks to play than Legacy, but "boring"? Seeing big damage numbers is never boring

I'd recomend just setting him aside for a while, or print out the Young Legacy promo card. If you want a different perspective and play but generally enjoy his deck, trading Galvanize for Atomic Glare (1 target 3 damage) might be right up your ally.

I don’t view Galvanize as invreasing damage, I view it as increasing plays and powers. If Galvanize doesn’t make a character hit a break point, then to me it isn’t worth it. For example, if Expat is against Voss, she can use the assault rifle to kill some minions, but she needs an extra point of damage (if no DR). She could play incendiary rounds or Legacy can Galvanize, and allow her to play a different card instead. Now you have to decide, which is better Expat’s play or Legacy (of course you have to do this for every character). Also, if Tempy will Squall anyways, then all you gain is an extra point of damage on Voss. Of course, you can Galvanize so that Tempy uses Cleansing Downpour. My point is that, for me, Legacy dictates the strategy of the group through his use of Galvanize, and each turn his is assessing all the different possibilities to see what is the best move.

I recall a conversation with Christopher where he discussed basing the heroes on archetypes. I'm not sure to what extent he did that or which archetypes he used, but it does not surprise me that many people find at least a few heroes that they don't enjoy playing.

I enjoy playing Legacy in two different situations -- When I want to use my attention elsewhere (teaching the game, running a complicated villain, I'm just plain tired) -- or when I really feel like helping others.

Is Galvanize overpowered or at least so powerful that it is almost always the right choice? Maybe. Others have pointed out some situations and reasons why you might not always use it, but to some extent I think those are the exceptions that prove the rule. 

It's already been pointed out that you could simply try playing w/out Legacy for a while. The sense I've got is that you are torn between wanting to have some more interesting choices when you play, but wanting to have Legacy's power. Have you considered 3 or 5 hero games, where the person who has more heroes controls Legacy?

Legacy is indeed rather boring; he's dead last on my list of heroes I enjoy playing.  I reserve him either for games where I expect to badly need the extra help (such as when I finally tackled Citizen Dawn on advanced, or my first try against the Ennead) or where he won't be as effective (3-hero games in general, plus I'll have to remember that Plague Rat idea).  In general, he exists to provide you with a newbie-friendly cheerleader kind of hero, especially desireable to players that are heavily into the social aspect of gaming, rather than the game itself - he doesn't make you think too hard, but does let you contribute to the group.  (If you want to contribute to the group AND think too hard, you want the Argent Adept.)  The promo Legacies are a nice alternative, although Young Legacy is perhaps still a little broken - her innate power deals 3 damage instead of the usual 2, and can be boosted by Surge of Strength (which is largely a dead card in normal Legacy's deck) on top of that.  Greatest Legacy is just ridiculously awesome though.

My favorite hero to play is NM and she HATEs legacy in most situations.  There are times when + damage is her friend, but in general I would rather not have it.  I played a game once, I can't remember the details but on person had Legacy and everyone else had people that were hurting themselves for one reason or another (from their own deck, not a villian mechanic) and we thought, "man Legacy, you are the worst with this team".

But overall, he's a little OP, the stats say he's pretty good and I believe it.  That doesn't mean its bad design, but it does mean that he doesn't see the board much unless its randomized for my play group.

Try Young Legacy.  it changes your role from support to surprisingly heavy attack/support.  You'll still do a fair amount of taking the hits, but its a VERY different experience.

You can find the front/back on boardgamegeek, and I'm sure there are a bunch of other threads that have the exact link.  

you can print it, cut it, and glue them to a playing card (or sleeve them), and it'll look fairly good.   

We hardly ever use Legacy, not because he's not effective or fun but because there are other heroes we tend to choose before him.  Even when we do choose Legacy, it's usually Baby Legacy 'cause my daughter likes the pew-pew.

I love that the game has so many choices that I would never feel like I had to play a character I felt was boring.

Legacy fits a specific playstyle.  He is the epitome of tanky/support and his role is to buff everyone else while soaking up damage, even though he can deal some decent damage.  Most of his usefulness comes from stacking him with ongoing cards so he can tank like a madman, using galvanize (and with Legacy Ring, using Motivational Charge) then letting everyone else do the real damage.  I wouldn't say he's boring; in a coop game, having someone who exists as a big stat buffer is definitely a game changer and its no different in Sentinels (and the statistics would show that Legacy is very very good at what he does).

I look at Legacy as the same playstyle as Ra.  Ra is a hero who just does constant good damage and little else.  By all accounts, he's just as "boring" in my eyes because it just comes down to stacking Damage Increases and hitting the enemy consistently.  Ra, like Legacy, never does anything fancy, but what he does, he does really well.

It all comes down to how you view the game.  Some people need to be the one on the team dealing all the damage, or else they're not having fun.  Others enjoy being the support because they know without them, the game would not be in their favor.  Personally, I enjoy heroes who have delicious, complex combos like Argent Adept and Omnitron-X, while others like the incredibly "risky" heroes like Nightmist and Absolute Zero.  Some want to do deck/damage manipulation and don't care if they're not the main damage dealer, so they pick The Visionary.

How you enjoy the game is up to you, but don't knock Legacy as boring or flawed in his design just because you don't like him.  There are plenty of people who love to play him.

If you get a legacy ring, everything changes. Selective immunity/charging or galvanize/charging is substantially more active- especially if you have all three powers out and have to choose. 

To me, Legacy is a very interesting hero to play as becuase he gives everything more value. Galvanize gives all attacks move value by doing more damage. Next evolution gives him more value by trading in the buff for survivability. Motivational Charge gives him value by doing damage and then healing the entire team.

The fact is that Legacy does his job of portecting everyone very well. And he can switch gears rather easily, if the luck of the draw is with him.

Especially with Schollar.

i've been doign Scholar/Legacy thepast few games and let me telly you, that is the offencive and possibly defencive core of the team. 

My bbiggest irk with Legacy is that when I play him, very turn seems to matter. Every card he plays matters vecause it will causwe him to take more hits fror the team and he might not surivivle long enough to get all he can out of it.

Weirdly, while Legs and Ra are the two characters I find simplest, Ra is FAR less boring to me, even though Legacy objectively has more options.  Ra may do almost nothing but deal fire damage, but he has such a dazzling variety of ways to deal it, I end up feeling as if he's got more depth than he actually does.  While AFL has the opposite effect on me (though not as pronouncedly as Bunker, who to me is the absolute epitome of "I have other options but none of them actually matter", and thus ranks lower for me than Ra).

Legacy's Galvinize is an exercise in self-sacrifice, in my mind.  His damage output is incredible, his ability to soak up damage is extraordinary, and he even has elements of healing/card accelleration.  Motivational Charge is an excellent attack, and Flying Smash is an incredibly potent damage dealer with no backlash.  But in many games the cards you need to play are Take Down, Heroic Interception, or Lead from the Front.  Legacy is a character that has a box full of toys that he could play with himself, but he's at his best when he lets his friends play with them first.

This concept was explored with Team Leader Tachyon, who inherited Legacy's leader position in the Freedom #.  Team Lead allows the whole team to accellerate card draw at the cost of Tachyon not getting as many cards in her trash.  You could Research Grant, or Quick Insight, but when the team needs a Hypersonic Assault and some supplementary cards there is "No sacrifice too great."  She gets a "better" power at the cost of being positively reinforced to use it over anything else, even if it would benefit her more as an individual deck.

I understand the mechanical frustrations with Legacy.  But those were put there for a reason, in my mind.  Thematically, it's playing a man that is indeed "super".  He cares about everyone, and his deck shows it.  You're rewarded for helping the team over yourself.  For a lot of people, they'd rather help themselves AND the team at the same time in a more balanced way.  I totally get that.  For some folks (like myself), Legacy is the ultimate teammate, and that's rewarding on an entirely different level than any of the other heroes.  With Legacy, you choose what is best for the team over yourself, and most of the time that'll be Galvinize.  Even if I don't get to be cool with Legacy, I get to make my friends be cooler.  Quite consistently, that's cool enough for me.

I guess we just disagree here. I think Bunker has a lot choices and decisions, and it is oftem difficult to decide between them.

The only way I ever don't end up going Turret Mode + at least one of Flak Cannon and Grenade Launcher (perhaps with Omni-Cannon or Maintenance Unit as the other power) is if I never draw one or the other, or if the guns are destroyed before I get a chance to play Turret Mode.  None of his other options are worthwhile by comparison, though throwing in a Gatling Gun is a nice bonus if you have a huge enough pile of cards.  I did recently get the chance to fire his Omni-Cannon for the first time, and had ignored two Turret Modes the whole game, but only because I never had a Flak Cannon, and when I had the Grenade Launcher there was only one target out.

Adhesive Foam Grenade is an amazing card in certain Environments, e.g. Rook City, Megalopolis, Pike Industrial Complex. And the Omnicannon is good in certain situations, like when you absolutely need to kill someone who's providing everyone DR or is immune to projectile damage.

Oh, I'm not discounting that one, it's great - but it's just a one-shot, and playing it earlier in the game before the turret setup comes together doesn't change the fact that your overall game plan is to get the turret setup.  Since Bunker has no tutoring and his card-drawing mostly comes from his power (the only exception being Recharge Mode), he can easily play a few extra cards without affecting his main strategy.

And the Omnicannon is good in certain situations, like when you absolutely need to kill someone who's providing everyone DR or is immune to projectile damage.

True, it has its possibilities, but it's so slow to get it running, and trying to charge it for multiple turns in a row is a terrifying risk if the enemy has any surprises at all up their sleeve.  The one time I got to fire it for 12, it was against Cosmic Omnitron and I knew that his two Tech Sings were done with - even so, I counted all the Drones and Terraformings in his deck, hedged against the one Stout Barrel left in the environment, and would not have tried to store cards for a full round if there was even a chance that Omnitron could have reshuffled and TechSinged me.  Only the ability to know the villain intimately and metagame around it made it a viable strategy, and I don't really like playing that way, as it breaks SOD.

I definitely wouldn’t say they aren’t worthwhile, Omni-Cannon is significanlty better at takking out a target with DR or killing a high hp target the round it comes into play. However, even so, that is only the end game (possibly), there are tons of decisions before then: do you search for those cards, do you hold off of playing any oyher cards before going into Turret Mode (this is a complicated decision), can you do more damage in Upgrade Mode (double EC can clear the board after a Force Deployment if Dawn flipping), will Recharge Mode gain you an advantage, when to use Adhesive, is there equipment destruction coming up that you have yo enter Upgrade Mode to prepare for, are you now the highest hp that Heavy Plating or Recharge a mode can help you with damage mitigation. etc. There are ton of ingame decisions that often you don’t want to or have time ti get to that end point. As an example, you said that you only consider Gatling Gun If you have the cards, but you don’t consider the immediate damage or how many turns it will take you to eventualy overcome your total damage with Gatling Gun. Bunker’s biggest cincern is how many turns he has left, and you always have to consider that when dealing with the best poasible move.

Also, I am not clear on what you mean when you say Omni or Maintenance for the other power. Unless you have an Aux Power Unit, Flak Cannon and Grenade Launcher will almost always be better and it is not worth wasting turns playing the other ones. For sure not Maintenance, and so etimes Omni is worth of it you have Ammo Drop powering it, but it is very rarely worth it to play those before going into TM. Also, I very rarely go into TM with two power, the single extra damage on Flak Cannon is almost never worth stopping your deck.

They're if you don't have one or both of the "main guns".  My whole point was that if you do have the "main guns" and Turret Mode, nothing else matters much.

For sure not Maintenance

If tanking with Heavy Plating and lacking a gun, Maint Unit regenerates you so you can continue to take the hits.  (Since he's "The Indestructible Bunker", I think he should have been better at this than he is, and not relied so much on guns.)  Also if you have a gun but don't always find targets for it (eg Miss Information), it might be useful to go into Turret mode just to heal 4 every turn, since Maint Unit isn't Limited.

My whole point is that the endgame doesn't matter, it is how you get there. Every play with Bunker creates an incredible decision. While the end game might be the same, which can be said by many heroes, how you get there changes every game. You can argue that he always gets there the sam way, but I have very rarely seen that happen. Most of the time you are better off going into Recharge Mode with plating to get better stuff. At the very least you will get Auxillaru which will allow you to do damage and heal. If you don't have a target, then you should be building up for a massove turn. Yes, double mainframe has some uses, but 95% of the time there will be something better.

Edit: I am not saying you are wrong in your view, just that I view him very differently. If you are every interested in seeing how I play him, you can look at my guide. Bit it doesn't matter if you do, just enjoy the game.