The Argent Adept Discussion

Discuss everything pertaining to the Argent Adept.
Questions, strats, ideal teams, match-up anaylsis ETC.

Questions tend to create their own threads or else appear in the strategy guides, which are incidentally where pretty much all strategy discussion and ideal teams appear. If you want to have a discussion about him, you're probably better off joining one of them, or else actually offering something in particular you wish to discuss. I mean, I wouldn't necessarily discourage this kind of thread (the more activity on this forum the merrier :D), but I'd suggest that you'd do better with a starting point of some kind.

Does his breath smell like mint?

Usually.

Argent's favourite food is Mint Ice-Cream, confirmed!

Maybe it is Mint Chocolate Chip Ice-Cread?

I'm not sure it's confirmed. Maybe he's sick of mint, always tasting it.

Maybe it is not from something he ate, maybe it I’d another power of the virtuoso of the void.

Kind of like a superhero I heard of once that could change the colour of her spit.

Does his hair glow because he uses Head&Shoulders? Will mine glow if I do so?

Question, with all the analysis Argent has received already, do you think there's any sense in me writing another guide to him?  I feel almost compelled to do so, just as a way of making better sense of him for my own use, but I figure the forum has already seen a lot of my self-indulgence, and this in particular has a lot of potential to be redundant.  Still, I think the mnemonics I've come up with for understanding his songs and instruments are pretty good, and I had a lot of fun trying to construct a "god turn" for him.

I want to know about his underwear. Is he a boxers kind of guy, or does he prefer something a bit snugger?

Or does he go commando?

Basing from the art of 'The Grave Beckons', I'd say he wears a cup.

Unless… commando hotdaaaaaaaamn.

If you feel like you have a different or fresh perspective that has not been presented and you feel like you have something to contribute, I would say to go ahead. If you think you will be reduntant with points already made on AA, then my question would be why write it? Have a goal in mind you want to accomplish.

For instance, I have a half completed guide for AA myself. But its not a general overview (as we have guides like that that do a wonderful job). It is more focused, specifically 2 instrument combos, what you can do with them, and how you might plan your card plays moving forward around whatever you have avaliable to you.

If you have a fresh angle, I do not think anyone would mind reading it, I guess thats what I am trying to say.

As someone who just started playing as Argent Adept (my Infernal Relics finally came), I'd be interested in a fresh perspective.  I've read flamethrower49's guide, which was great, but after getting my ass handed to me by Dawn, I know I still have a lot to learn when it comes to how to set him up and who his teammates should be.

I say go for it.  More Sentinels content out there is never a bad thing.

When I first played the Adept, I found that he seemed rather complicated, and mentally grouped him with Ab'Zero as one of the heroes who'd need quite a bit of brain-work to get my head around. However, after a few games with him I started to learn the cards in his deck and the combos that could happen with them - what each song does, what kind of song(s) each instrument can activate, and so on.

He can take a while to get set up, if you plan on getting out most/all of his stuff. This can take quite a few turns (even if you use his songs on himself to let him play extra cards and stuff to get set up evern quicker), but you really don't need a whole load of cards in order to be effective. It can depend on who you're playing with, of course, but just having out, say, the Lyra (or the Bell) and Counterpoint Bulwark, in a turn where you also play Vernal Sonata during your Play Phase, can let someone take a card from their trash and put it on top of their deck, then draw it ready to play it on their next turn. Something as simple as the Pipes and both copies of Sarabande can be pretty epic to take out two ongoings/environment cards at once. And never underestimate the value of Cedistic Dissonance to insta-kill absolutely anything that isn't a character card (oh dear, Voss, was that your spaceship? Aww, Apostate, you were anjoying those Runes giving your relics all that soak, weren't you?), plus as long as you have a copy of Instrumental Conjuration on-hand, getting your lost instrument back again is no really major trouble.

I find Arcane Cadence useful in the early game to hopefully hunt down some useful cards to put in a suitable position ready to be activated or put into play on this turn or over the next few turns. Once I've got a few things out, I tend to favour Silver Shadow during my Play phase since by then I've usually got a few nice songs out so the Accompany use is good, plus I then get a free draw or play anyway :).

One combo I like to set up is the Harp, the Lyra, Inspiring Supertonic, and any other stuff I can get my hands on, because of the way you can combo them - the Harp activates Supertonic, which you use on yourself to activate the Lyra, which activates Supertonic again so you can use it again on yourself to activate another instrument in order to do some more stuff :). Of course, while this set-up is certainly nice, it by no means happens every game. But that's the thing with the Adept - unless you get very unlucky with your card draw (or at least your starting hand), there always seems to be something you can do, even if it's only putting stuff out to set up for next turn, or something. One important thing to remember is to, if you can, get a song in play during your first turn so that you can actually make use of your Powr phase. If you can't, it's a bit of a shame, but that's better than forgetting about it completely until you get to your Power phase and go "Oops, I forgot to put a song out" - I've done it plenty of times myself ;).

In terms of working with other heroes, often I just look at who else is in the game and ask whether they could do with anything in particular right now. For example, Expatriette really likes extra card draw to find all her guns and stuff. Unity gets on amazingly with those who can let her play cards out of turn, since this means she can get her bots out faster. Of course, pretty much any character will like extra chances to play, draw, or use a power, but some can really make amazing use of it. Were you playing in a game with, say, Legacy and anyone who deals plink damage (ie little hits of one damage, such as Chrono Ranger, Tachyon, or Fanatic), as long as Legacy's turn is before the Adept's, you can have him use Galvanise again and it'll stack with the one he used on his own turn, giving everyone else +2 damage until the start of Legacy's next turn (obviously this is utterly useless if Legacy's turn is right after the Adept's). Using the Vernal Sonata/Counterpoint Bulwark combo (mentioned above) can be good for letting Fanatic retrieve Wrathful Retribution for a second blast, for example.

Really, the amount of possible things the Adept can let his allies do would probably be far too long a list to write here, because he can help pretty much any hero do pretty much anything, since he's capable of letting them use any action (apart from start/end of turn stuff, obviously). But that's why I like him so much - because I don't think he works better with some heroes than others - he can help all of them!

The main down sides I see when I play him are that he can take a while to get set up, so in a short game he may not get much of a chance to do anything. He also has the lowest starting hp of any hero. He does have plenty of ways to regain said hp, of course, but naturally you aren't guaranteed to be able to get hold of them when you need them. Having all your stuff destroyed can be a pain as well…but that's pretty much the same for every other character, and some of them have no personal means of retrieving any of their own lost cards, or any means of searching for new ones (Legacy or Haka, for example).

There's probably more I could say about the Adept, but I can't think of anything specific right now ;).

Even though Gloomweaver is an exceptionally easy boss regardless, he's downright laughable with Agent Adept on the field, mostly thanks to Cedistic Dissonant.  That combined with Instrumental Conjuration is just ridiculous.

I essentially used Arcane Cadence to put a bunch of Instrumental Conjurations into my hand.  Then I used The Wraith's "check the top two cards of the villain deck" power to make sure that Gloomweaver's Relics would come up.  It would enter the field with 25 HP, then get one-shotted by Cedistic Dissonant.  I'd then easily replace the instrument next turn with Instrumental Conjuration, rinse and repeat.

I think I killed Gloomweaver in about 4 turns.

Hehe, that's pretty cool :D. Using Omni-10's Timeshift power you could do it even quicker, since you'd only need the card to be on top of the deck and not yet in play :). Also if two relics were out, you could whittle them both down simultaneously and stick a Whole Gang bounty on one of 'em via Chrono Ranger :D.

I don't actually use Cedistic Dissonant very often - it's probably the song I've used the least out of all of them, because usually I'll only use its Perform ability when it's absolutely, definitely necessary, even though instruments are easily recoverable via Instrumental Conjuration. I don't really use the Accompany because there are plenty of other ways to get cards (Arcane Cadence, Instrumental Conjuration, Counterpoint Bulwark's Accompany, even Vernal Sonata) and I never really have any cards that I want to discard…which in itself means I have loads of cards that I want to keep hold of and therefore don't really want/need to draw any more anyway ;). About the only card I'm happy to ditch (and off the top of my head don't think I've ever actually used, ever) is Polyphoric Flare, mainly because I always seem to have something I'd rather do than hit myself (even though the extra power use is obviously a very nice thing to have). After that, Scherzo of Frost and Flame is probably my least-used card - if I play it, it's usually because I haven't got anything else I'd rather put out. Damage is my lowest priority on the Adept, since basically everyone can do it better than him and it's not really his thing. I'd rather let someone else whack the bad guy, and as the Adept I have plenty of ways to allow that to happen :).

This is somewhat true, yes, but every Instrument you have to rebuild with Conjuration is one more instrument you're not fetching out of the deck in order to assemble your god-turn.  You essentially get a total of ten instruments in your deck, six directly and four through the Conjurations…generally it's better, if you can spare a card play for Conjuration at all, to be proactive and grab a new Instrument.  Unless of course equipment-wipes are part of the villain's shtick. 

had a question today regarding quick shots and how soon they're discarded to the trash and to no surprise it's only after a particular card's affects are fully resolved does it discard itself to the trash.

that being the case

It would NOT BE LEGIT to use a silver shadow
use it's extra playing ability to play a vernal sonata and use vernals effect to RETRIEVE that very silver shadow played... as it's still on the field and not in the trash :(


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anybody get the opportunity of making any draw dropping plays using flare?
 

The best use of Flare for me has been Timeshift or DDA hitting it.

When I play it it is usually to double up on bulwark or Onslaught, esp. when rocking some Cryo bot or Stealth bot shenanigans.  (we had cryo at a +6 damage once, Akash didn't live long)

One game I had Inventive prep on the field + dominant + lyra = 2 out of turn card plays.

On top of that... during my play phase, played a cadence which had both a Silver shadow AND a flare in it!!!! very very good.

Played silver showdow = out of turn play plus another play for free.
Used the free play to play the flare which used on Argen'ts hero power to play dominant = one more out of turn play.
Then came power phase which I then used a power on the lyra, activating both songs giving another two out of turn plays.

4 cards played out of turn for the otehr members of the group
Felt really good and op.
 

If there was one thing we could change/improve about Argent adept what would it be?
I find his melodies a little on the underwhelming side apart from saranade of destruction. And because of that, I find that flutes are often times more valuable as amo for is... "sidistic dissonence" than they are otherwise meant to be, which is a little unfortunate.

Allowing flutes to play other songs would be a bad idea, and letting the pipes play one melody twice would probably be too strong as well...
any cool proxy ideas to the pipes and/or melodies?

 

I dunno...using the Pipes to play both copies of Rhapsody of Vigour can be pretty good - that's healing everyone for 2hp each, the same as Tempest's Cleansing Downpour, but you're probably doing so in addition to several other song effects (depending on what you've got out, of course), so it could be seen as a nice bonus :).

Pipes are also wicked with double frost and flame when damage is getting boosted a ton.

The one thing I would like would be a second instrument that Performs Rythym.  I understand why there isn't, you really should have to work hard to get two damage boosts/reduction in one power chain, but whenever I'm getting ridiculous with him I'm always sad when I remember only Vocalize and the Bell can do it.  I also realize that it makes a lot of sense musically.

But in the alternate timeline where the Adept turns into a 1980's rocker I want a massive drumset that can Perform Rythym twice.  And some kind of hair based atttack.  He could get a one-shot that destroys all environment cards that shows him getting his hair done as well.

no doubt...

But if the goodness of the pipes' is there mainly when two melodies are on the field... still feels pretty gimp to me.
how about the idea of in addition to what the pipes are already able to do, if they were also able to play a single melody twice at a certain cost.

Play a single melody twice at the price of the melody itself.
Or maybe at the price of the instrumen itself... or maybe discard a number of cards?

I don't know, I've had a few strong games with AA that started with getting Saranade of Destruction and Rhapsody of Vigor out on the field early, along with flutes.

That's destroying an environment card and healing your team every turn, which is crazy strong.  And as you said, later on, Pipes become good ammo for Cedisistic Dissonance.  I don't think any of the intruments need changing; they all serve a specific function and can be used in different scenarios optimally.  Plus with all the Instrumental Conjuration and Cadences in his deck, there is a ton of ways to get the instrument you need out onto the field.

One thing that bugs me a little is that in the art of InstruConj, while we see the six instruments in their green bubbles, we also see other green bubbles floating around in the background.  Six instruments doesn't seem like a lot, even if they're all a 40-card deck with three types of Songs actually needs.  If there have been Virtuosos since the dawn of time, there should be an awful lot of instruments around, even if Abby has been destroying them frequently.  Will we see more in Tactics, I wonder?

My one big beef with AA, other than the fact I never seem properly set-up, is his low health. I get why and agree, but he dies so quickly in any game where the lowest gets hit often, that it makes it really depressing to play him. Of course, that is anecdotal and supported by no stats, plus gets into balance territory.

Essentially, I'm whining a little bit

I agree with that.  His 25 health tends to make sure he's always on the bottom of the who-is-the-lowest-health-hero ladder, and I find he flames out early and hard in most of my games.

Man, Argent Adept wishes he had 25 health.

Too much Rocking out will do that to you.  If you don't get Supertonic that lowest health stuff is crushing.

24 health, actually.  25 is unique to only one normal hero, but lots of promo heroes have it as well, while I believe Argent is the sole and exclusive 24, so he will always be hit by Citizen Blood or a just-Vanished Ambuscade on the first turn of the game, before he can do anything about it.  (Were it not for the rule that Citizen Dare can't be one of the starting Citizens, I'd suspect it would be possible in a 5-hero Advanced game for Argent to die before getting a turn…)

I consider myself a bit of an Argent connoisseur, but I have to say, I NEVER EVER EVER use Polyphoric flare. He just has too many other, better cards to use. the only time I could think about using it is if he somehow got an out-of-turn play, but that's really hard to plan for.

Also, he's really survivable if you use the Supertonic. there are 4 different instruments that can use the Accompany on that, plus Silver Shadow.

I have occasionally used Polyphoric to good effect - it's another way besides Subdominant Accompany to get to play a second Instrument in a turn (assuming you haven't lucked into Supertonic to let you play two or more instruments every turn), and thus can be useful in tough situations.  For example, if he has out two Rhapsody of Vigor and both Drake's Pipes and Telamon's Lyra (or if he has the Lyra plus Anpuku's Drum but no Pipes, and only one Rhapsody), but he's not hurting for HP himself, he can give everyone else 1 more HP in exchange for only getting 1 himself (or none in the second scenario).  Naturally, it's not ideal to be going without Subdominant and Supertonic, since they're your most powerful cards, but sometimes you just don't draw the Arcane Cadences that will let you fish through your deck for the Songs you need, and you're stuck making do with what you have.  Replacing the Flares with two more copies of Supertonic would certainly upgrade the deck's potency (possibly unto borkenness), but the Flares are in the deck, and sometimes they are the card you need.  The rest of the time, they're probably discard fodder, and it's not like he has much of that, since almost every card in his deck is worth having (except duplicate Rhythms and Harmonies, and even them vs. any amount of destruction).

Also, he's really survivable if you use the Supertonic. there are 4 different instruments that can use the Accompany on that, plus Silver Shadow.

There are five lights three instruments.  Harp and Horn can accompany Harmonies (Harp can Perform them too), and Bell can accompany anything.  Drum and Lyra only accompany Rhythms, while respectively performing Melodies and Harmonies.

Ecch, I was counting the Lyra. I don't know, I'm tired.

I only caught the mistake because I've made it myself, only for Rhythms.  And I still wish they'd make a promo seventh instrument that could Perform a Rhythm and accompany one or the other type of card, even if it would be strictly worse than the Bell.  It's really weird that only one instrument can activate the damage mods of Syncopated Onslaught or Counterpoint Bulwark...if La Capitan steals the Bell, you're pretty much effed in terms of getting those used (you can Vocalize them of course, but only once and then you don't get anything else).  Unless you're getting out-of-turn powers (which is your shtick, so you can only receive it from incap heroes), you can never ever manage to get those effects more than twice at a time, and it seems silly to have that limit when Supertonic and Subdominant can chain into each other something like 6-8 times in a turn without outside assistance.  (I actually worked out the God-Turn for Adept once; it was really something.  And it involved Polyphoric Flare.)

I don't think I've ever used Polyphoric Flare either. I can certainly see how it can be incredibly useful to combo a million things in your turn, but I just always seem to have something better (ie less painful) to play, or my health is worryingly low, or some other reason which results in my not playing it. It makes a good candidate for chucking into the trash via Arcane Cadence, though ;). Mind you, even then, there might be a better card to put into the trash if you want to retrieve it later with Vernal Sonata (in which case, the Flare would probably be better off at the bottom of the deck).

Why would you want two Rhapsody of Vigors out? You know that you can use perform and accompany texts on a single card multiple times, right?

Drake's Pipes wants two separate cards.

Having both copies of Sarabande out with the Pipes is very useful when you're against someone who brings out some annoying ongoings, or are in an environment with a bunch of horrible cards (or both). And if you have both copies of Rhapsody out, that's cool because you can use the Pipes to heal everyone for two points on your turn. If you're doing that as part of a combo at the end of Harp-Supertonic-Lyra-Supertonic-Pipes-Rhapsody-Rhapsody, you get to heal yourself for a total of six points. The Adept is actually capable of tanking, to some extent, since he can heal himself more in one turn than he can heal everyone else (with the right card combo out, obviously), so can end up on top of the group hp pile during a longer game :).

Also, having multiple copies is good for Ongoing destruction fodder.

This is also true :).

When you use an instrument, do you have to use the perform and accompany in the order they appear on the instrument card?

Telamon's Lyra : Power: Activate the Perform text of a Harmony card and the Accompany text of a Rhythm card.

With: Inspiring Supertonic: Perform: One Player may use a Power now.  Accompany: The Argent Adept regains 2 HP.

And: Inventive Preparation: Perform: Each Player may look at the top card of their Hero deck, then replace it or discard it.  Accompany: One Player, other than you, may play 1 card now.

I wanted to have a hero play a card which had a power on it and then be able to use that power.  But if I have to do the Perform action first then I would not be able to do this.

Yes.

/agree

I'm pretty sure you always have to follow a card's instructions in the order listed - if there are any exceptions to that (of which I can't think of any), they'd be explicitly spelt out on the card.

Imbued Fire, and it was explicitly spelled out by Adam. (Although this gets into another discussion.)

I don't know, they're listed in the same sentence, so they aren't actually listed as a sequence. As written, they are a simultaneous event, which puts them under the OoO ruling.

Imbued Fire's properties are constant, though, making all hero damage fire and increasing all fire damage by one. Those come into effect and stay there without you needing to specifically take any action at that point beond having played the card. With a card like the Adept's instruments, which require you to actively do something, you follow the instructions in order.

But it doesn't SAY to do "this, then this." It just says "do this and this," which does not inherently mean to do them in that order.

Yeah, static effects don't have timing.

If a card with a static effect comes into play the effect doesn't have to activate, and it doesn't wait its turn, when the card enters play the effect enters play.  

You still do them in the order the card is written. "And" does not imply a simultaneous action. They still have to be done in order the card is written. 

For example if a card hite the hero target with the highest hp for (H) damage and the hero target with the lowest (H)-1 damage that damage is not simultaneous, and you could not choose to have the lowest target take damage first.