Metagaming required?

Been playing Sentinels with some friends for about 8 months off-and-on when we can.  Recently I got all the expansions and we've been playing a lot more.  However, our win ratio is terrible.  We can barely hold a 25% win ratio (my best guess).  We all really like this game for numerous reasons, but a really big factor is that we can play heroes we like.  At least that's what we used to be able to do.  Nowadays it seems that if we don't metagame and find heroes that should do well against a boss, we just get stomped.  We all have favorite heroes that we just enjoy playing more than others, but I feel like we can no longer play those characters when we want to if we want to win.  It's not nearly as much fun when you lose all the time.  :(

We've noticed recently that it seems most of the villains chain terribly.  We'll be going along just fine, taking out minions, trading damage with the boss, chipping away at him...then he chains and we're all dead.  Plague Rat, Citizen Dawn, Iron Legacy, The Ennead, Akash'Buta...we've had games with all of them where we hit a point in the game where they chain and just wipe the floor with us.

If I had to place blame, I'd probably put 60/40 between the villains/environments.  Environments are definitely out to get the heroes, and it shows.  Either the environment triggers something for the villain, or vice versa, and sometimes both.

One of the most severe examples was a game we had recently against Omnitron.  I forget which environment it was, but we had to play the top card from the villain and environment decks in order to get rid of an environment card.  We did that on the environment's turn, which pulled out Omnitron's 15hp device that does damage at the start of his turn based on it's hp.  That hit everyone for 15, then his play phase pulled out his card that does damage based on Equipment you have in play.  Between the end of environment and start of villain turns, Wraith went from 26hp to dead without any way we could have anticipated or mitigated that.

TL:DR

My questions:  Do you guys find that you need to metagame to win?  Do you see the villains/environments chain frequently?

It's gotten to the point now where I'm now building a "cheat sheet" of short snippets about each villain/environment so that we know not to use certain combos together and/or what to expect.  IMO, that takes some of the fun out of playing but I feel that we either have to do that, or we lose.  It could just be that we've had a bad luck streak...but it just doesn't feel that way.  Any input is appreciated.

Thanks  :)

As the game and its expansions have gone on, the difficulty curve has increased a lot.  Mainly in the form of "Destroy (H) Ongoing/Equipment cards" and "Search the deck/graveyard for (H) cards and put them into play.  Play the top card of the villain deck."  I HATE cards like that, but that's where the villains seem to be going in terms of difficulty.  Our win rate is good, but we definitely talk about who is playing what in certain games, and often times if someone is playing a hero that will be completely stomped against a certain villain or environment, we choose something else and go from there.

Randomizing seems to help kill metagaming.

My gaming group (wife, daughter) win almost every time.  We play 5-hero games, with the girls running two heroes each.  Yes, we run into those cards which resurrect those zillion minions we just spend all our time taking out, but that's how it goes I guess.  We've never needed a cheat sheet.

If you're losing so consistently on non-Advanced mode, I'd have to assume you may be missing some rules or handling something incorrectly.  Though from your description, I can't tell what.

Some games are just tough. Heck even baron gets me every now and then. I have a very high win rate, and I randomize every game (also know the decks very well). 

It's possible you are playing a rule wrong. Maybe you need more team communication, or a more sound strategy? With the same team of heros and cards, I'd play dawn much different than enead for example. 

If you could provide specifics of games or set ups your group has trouble with, I'm sure you will get rained upon with suggestions and tips. I'm always down to talk strategy 

This was my original thought as well.  So, my brother and I have been really trying to make sure we're playing things correctly and that definitely ISN'T helping.  lol  But, we'll keep double-checking our rules.

Another good point I forgot to mention, 98% of the games I'm talking about are on regular mode.  I think we've only played 2 or 3 games ever on Advanced.

BTW  Spiff, your clarifications pdf is just plain awesome.  That answered numerous questions that we've had.  It's so awesome in fact, I'm picking up my copy I had printed at FedEx Office into a really nice booklet on my way home today.  Excellent work, and I know my group will really appreciate it.

I do find that the main way I lose is stuff chains out, or the villain lucks into a combo with the environment. The thing is, those crisis spikes are fun for me. Those moments when you go "Aw man, we are so boned," drive you to play harder. If you just evenly coast to victory it's not as satisfying.

That said, my group has like an 85% win rate (non-advanced), and we do not pick teams specifically to counter villains. Typically a couple people random, a couple people want to play something specific, and I'll fill in a role or play something I haven't played in a while.

The 4-difficulty villains you're going to need a few certain things on the team, but that's more about avoiding the complete lack of something. Iron Legacy with no ongoing destruction is harsh. The 3s you should be pretty much okay picking anything.

The average win rate is significantly higher than that, though. I'd recommend looking at Spiff's semi-official FAQ and Flamethrower's (and other's) guides to see if you're missing anything important. It's possible you're just getting unlucky, but more likely it's a combination of factors.

Ah good point! Maybe you can optimize how you play certain heros better? Checking out all the guides is something I highly recommend. 

It's so awesome in fact, I'm picking up my copy I had printed at FedEx Office into a really nice booklet on my way home today.

I'll try to hold off any new clarifications for a while so that your printed copy will remain up-to-date for as long as possible. :)

I randomize my games and have been doing well so far, about 70-80% on Advance. Rather than making a list of what heroes don't work against which villain, it's better to understand each villain better and know what's their threats and strategize how to overcome them. Eg, planning for forced deployment.

O man, we've pulled out a couple games at crazy low hp.  I remember once I had Fanatic at 1hp and she killed the boss with her "I hit for how many hp I'm missing" card on the last turn before we were going to die.  It was awesome, and I agree, those are the best times!  :D

However, since the EE it's been a graveyard unless we metagame.  Just wanted to see what others' experiences were.  If we could get to the point where we can use a randomizer that would be ideal.

As long as they're just new pages I can add in, I'm cool with it.  :)

I think it may be helpfull to adress specific aspects of metagaming seperately. I would like to focus on deck familiarity, deck efficacy and player efficacy. Other posts have advised becoming more familiar with the hero, enviroment and villain decks, and doing so will greatly reduce the need to metagame, but it does take time. For now, you and your group may benefit from acceleration and reveal effects. Wraith’s Infrared Eyepeice, Visionary’s Precognition and Nightmist’s Astral Premonition all let you reveal cards from the villain deck and choose which card will be played next. If you are unfamiliar with a deck or haven’t played it in some time than this gives you a refresher without stopping the game. If those characters are early in the rotation then later characters can react accordingly.
Certain decks are more effective against certain enviroments and villains, and deck familiarity will help identify that. In your example Visionary is very effective against Omnitron, and Wrest the Mind can shut down and Electro-Pulse Explosive. Did Wraith have an Infrared Eyepeice in hand or play? A well timed Inventory Barrage can also save Wraith from Technological Singularity. Equiptment heavy heroes in general will have a harder time with Omnitron.
I have been playing since before Rook City, and I generally only pick a character specifically for a villain when playing with new players or when someone else is playing a character for the first time. Legacy, Team Leader Tachyon, Argent Adept and Scholar are all good choices for protecting or assisting a specific player or character. I hope at least one of these thoughts is helpfull.

More heroes also helps. If you are playing with three heroes try four or five. The H mechanic helps, but 3 hero games win at about 60% rather then the 80% for 4 or 5.

Some villains can be a lot easier with three heroes depending on the draw. Apostate does a lot less damage and the Dreamer summons less projections and requires less of them to be killed for victory. The Assistant only needs two clue cards to flip with a team of three which can make her easier to handle. On average though, a team of 5  will fare much better than a team of 3.

That's a great point.  I'll have to keep that in mind.

Yeah, this would have been awesome had I had it in hand at the time.  We played a second game as a rematch and that was definitely something I tried to hang on to.

I would probably say since the advent of (H) cards, I've found 5 heroes is just as hard as 3.  In fact, we've probably won more of our 3 hero games than our 5 hero games since I've gotten the EE and expansions.  Interesting…we'll have to try some more 5 hero games.

From my personal experience, the only fight harder with 3 heros is the chairman. Just because the damage output of the deck (the gunman/contract combo) is not [H] dependent. 

All of my solo games are 3 heros. I do not lose often on normal with total random games. I really think 3 hero games are pretty easy. 

I say Miss Information is also quite tough with the H mechanic. Having to hold out on the Clue cards while the Diversion kick your butt is tough ><

Ice584 -

Have you read flamethrower49's guides? They I think are invaluable when you're trying to run characters more efficiently.  I don't believe they are gospel, but information verified against two reliable sources. 

We generally don't metagame, but we all have our favorites.  A group with (someone), OmniX, Unity, and Visionary is going to be okay most fights.  We're trying to broaden, but Raptorbots is so much fun.

I have not, but I'm assuming I found them here: http://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/flamethrower49s-strategy

DEFINITELY going to, at the very least, give those a read.  Looks like some great material, thanks for the suggestion!

is metagaming helpful? sure.  some heroes just have better tactics for different villains/environments

is metagaming required?   no.  My group and I just pick whatever hero we want and then the villain & environment are either randomized or if something is just thematically screaming at us to try then we'll do that... but more often than not it's randomized.  using this methodology, our win rate is about 40% and our fun rate is still 100%.  so it works for us.

Ice584 - those are the ones.  I found their usefulness directly proportional to the complexity of the hero, ymmv. 

As Mr Fixer once told Unity (in the "A day at the workshop" one-shot special collector):

" Superpowers don't make you a hero. What makes you a hero is victory on evil.

You can't teach victory. But you can teach, and learn, how to use whatever you have at hand in such a way that you, or your team mates, or someone else, will ruin the bad guy's plan. It's hard work. Days and days and days of training. Lots of defeats, too. And lots of hurt pride. 

You don't save the world by shaking your hand and yelling "I'm OverPawred !". You save it by going over your defeats, tending your wounds and going back to fight again. Even if you have no chance to win. Even if no one will know. Because, if a hero falls to a villain in the forest, it doesn't matter if there's someone to hear it : innocents will suffer in the end.

So stop sulking and rebuild this Baron Blade Bot, we need to go back to training."

The villains chain often, and can hurt a lot, but they are not the only one to do it : the heroes, too, can chain, either independently or as a team - or sometimes as a counter to the villains chains.

Howhever, they don't chain "automatically", like the villain : learning how to make "damage control" on the villain, or how to use a specific combinations of cards or heroes takes time. As does learning to "feel" the rythm of the game.

I play a lot, but still learn a new thing every game. The way I play Absolute Zero or Mr Fixer today is completely different from the way I played them a few months ago. It's also true of all the others - I don't play Legacy at all like I did in the beginning...

There is a lot to learn with each hero deck. You can know the cards by heart, it doesn't help : you have to learn how and when to use - or not use - the cards. Each hero works differently - each new hero is whole new skill to work. As is each villain, even each environment. Taming a Kraken is no small task.

I remember very well how Baron Blade was tough, at first. He seemed unbeatable. I fought against him many, many times, until I "suddenly" opened my eyes and found how to handle him, how to use my heroes against him. I still fear the Chairman, but it's because I never "trained" against him.

I would suggest, next time you lose, to do the same fight again, witht the same decks. Just shuffle, and back to work. And again. and again. Or concentrate on a given set of heroes, and have them face different villains. The more you play a given hero or villain, the more you can "innovate" and use old cards for new effects, new combinations that suddenly become so "obvious" that you wonder why you never thought using them before, and so on.

The point is : there is a lot of subtle tactics and strategies in SotM, things that are not obvious at all. Some can be explained (Flamethrower's guides are wonderful), some can't.The more you play, the more you learn - and the game "changes".

As for "metagaming" and chosing the heroes before hand, I couldn't say. The only time I didn't randomize my games was when I decided to fight all villains in sequence with the Freedom Five -and even then their order was random. They were defeated by Omnitron and Iron Legacy.

We use some metagaming, ususally in environment choice, but almost any set of heroes can defeat a villain. 

I mean, there's don't use Tachyon against The Dreamer (since a lot of her cards, she hits everything), Unity requires someone to help her draw cards and Haka's Savage Mana stalls any summoning deck, but that's about it.

Tachyon has two cards that hit everyone, Hypersonic Assualt and Accelerated Assualt. Hyperson will prevent Dreamer from doing damage, perfect for after she flips. I'm confused as to why you would exclude Tachyon but not Tempest, who's innate deals 1 to all, plus 1 out of his other 2 powers he can gain deals 2 to all. He even has an Electrical Storm that deals 1 to all targets at the start of his turn.

I wouldn't say Unity requires someone to allow her to draw cards, she is quite fine on her own.

Extra card draws and plays can really help Unity, but her deck has several draw options like Brainstorm and Supply Crate, and she has Flash Forge, which you can use to get any golemn or equipment into your hand.

Extra card draws and plays helps every character. How it that unique to unity?

Indeed extra draws and plays helps all heroes, however some heroes like it a lot more.

Unity, Absolute Zero, Expatriette, Fixer, NightMist, Omnitron-X, Wraith, Scholar and Tempest can really benefit from a few extra card draws, however when each of them get going they are fine without. Which is when an extra card draw for the rest of the heroes may be needed, as they can typically get what they need or can live with playing whatever they desire for a while.

Where as plays come into play it really helps Unity, Chrono-Ranger, Wraith Absolute Zero, Argent Adept, Ra, NightMist, Omnitron-X, Tachyon, and Bunker. As they have so many cards you would like to get into play. Getting these heroes set-up earlier means they can dominate the field without a problem. Afterwards letting heroes play one-shots is always a good option!

My list is not entirely accurate, as I may have forgotten a few heroes here and there, but the ones I listed I do count to be on these list.

As you can see Legacy, Fanatic, Haka, and Visionary do not appear on any of these. As each of these heroes are usually fine playing with what they have in hand. They also do not require a lot of cards to be insanely powerful.

Just to add, Legacy in particular is a beast even without any additional plays or whatever. Legacy can play at near optimum levels just playing one card a round, making do with whatever he has at the moment; Galvanize, by itself, is actually a pretty damn good turn already, given the right circumstances. this makes Legacy one of the most powerful (if slightly boring to play) characters in the game.

The people who benefit most from extra card plays are those whose cards are more powerful when played out of turn, and Mr. Fixer and Fanatic are prominent on that list.

And Unity, of course, who really loves being able to get bots out without using powers.

I'm not seeing how Smite the Transgressor is more powerful out of turn. All it does is give her a power use, when if played on her turn she could of used an additional power. Sure it wouldn't be Absolute twice, but Exorcism and Absolution would only deal 1 less damage than dual Absolutions. Where as allwoing a hero to get set-up would also make up for the lack of 1 damage. Such as AZ playing Focused Apperatures, Unity playing a bot, Omni-X getting more components out, etc.

(a) Fanatic mightn't have Absolution in play. Or she might have both Absolution and Embolden in play.

(b) It's not just Smite the Transgressor. There's also Zealous Offence and Prayer of Desperation.

Also, I'd say that much of the time extra card plays are wasted on Chrono Ranger and Omnitron-X, who can give themselves a ton of extra card plays already. This is sometimes true of The Wraith as well.

While I understand your reasoning, i'll have to disagree. In general I think it's better for heroes with more than a 3 card set-up gain access to additional plays. However in a situation where the extra damage from an out of turn Overdrive occurs, than yes that would be better.

I wouldn't view giving Omni-X and Chrono extra plays a waste, unless of course they were already set-up for their extra playing ways and are only using the extra plays to fuel their turns so they can play even more cards and dominate the field.

However if you are truly in that situation it almost sounds more of player problem. Is the AA player asking who wants card plays or does someone just shout that they would like to play a card on his turn? If the player is asking who wants to play a card does he just give it to the first person to say something or waits for more players to respond? Does he found out the options available before making a choice or does he choose one of the people who spoke up?

Typically when I play as AA and I either have Subdominant/Preparation in play, I will ask if anyone wants to play a card. If anyone responds with a yes I find out what each person has that they wish to play. Sometimes I also ask what they would be playing on their turn depending on what cards they want to play on mine (such as Tempest wanting to play Gene-Bound Shackles or Chrono-Ranger playing Jim's Hat). Then I will figure out what is the best option considering what is in play, the HP of targets, and what will be played on their turns.

I will also do a similar thing if I am not the AA character. As I know some people give it to the first person who asks, I will sometimes say "I would like to play X card if there isn't a better option" letting everyone know what card and to still promote teamwork by not sounding demanding to play a card.

There's no player problem involved. By themselves, without any help, Omnitron-X and Chrono Ranger can easily get into the position where they have more card plays than cards in hand worth playing. This is especially true of Omnitron-X. Situationally, it may be worth it for Argent Adept to give one of them a card play, particularly in the case of Omnitron-X's first Electro-Deployment Unit. Most of the time, it probably won't be.

Obviously, the Argent Adept's player should communicate with other players, and vice versa, and everything is situational. But as a generality, it is better to let cards that are more powerful out of turn be played out of turn than cards that aren't more powerful when played out of turn.

 Sometimes we randomize, sometimes we just pick whoever we feel like.   It's extremely rare that we pick a hero specifically to be good against a villain.   We play advanced mode,  I'd say we win on advanced maybe 60-70% of the time.

A lot of it honestly is knowing the cards.   If you're playing Omnitron in Rook City,  you need to be aware of the fact that playing a villian card on the environment turn could bring out Electropulse explosive.   If you're caught off gaurd by that, you pretty much lose.  However, now that you know that can happen, you might not be so quick to voluntarily play villain cards on the environment turn vs Omnitron next time around. 

  General Advice:

To stop the chain effect, or at least help against it,  playing a "Control" type hero can help a lot.   Visionary is a good choice for avoiding the worst stuff in the villain deck.  Tempest's Into the Stratosphere card can give you more time by putting cards back on top of the deck, thereby slowing down the villians plays.   Legacy's Takedown, or Nightmist's Mistbound can stop the villian from playing cards entirely.   Using these effects can go a LONG way towards victory.   If you can reuse them (Reclaim from the Deep,  Vernal Sonota)  then so much the better!

Don't undersestimate cards that can nullify damage for a turn,  these are some of the most powerful cards out there.   Ground Pound,  Hypersonic Assault,  Grease Gun, Heroic Interception.   Reuse these as well, if possible (Reclaim from the Deep, Vernal Sonota).

Take down priority targets,  ignore ones that don't do much damage (so long as they dont have an annoying accompanying effect, such as Gene-Bound Gaurd).  It's much better to take down a Frost Hound (2 damage to all heroes)  instead of a banshee (3 damage to 1 hero). 

My wife suggests:   If you're still losing; pick your team well.   Not necessarily against a villian in specificly,  but pick for synergies between heroes.   It's a team game,  so make sure your team is strong.    1 damage dealer is a good start,  1 team support character is good too.   If you're going against a villian with Ongoings,  it's nice to have someone who can deal with that.   

She says maybe pick Legacy and Ra as 2 of your heroes, and build the rest of the team however you like   (Tachyon would be a supreme 3rd choice to fill in the role of ongoing/environment control,   Wraith would also be good here).  

If you still have problems,  come to GenCon,  and we'll personally help you out =p.

-awp

In short, no, metagaming is not required. It was stated long ago that any set of heroes could defeat any villain in any environment, it would just take a bit more ingenuity or luck in some cases. After a few expansions, I still think that to be the case.

I like to play random games, so the roll of the die chooses our party composition and environment, but we sometimes choose which villain we want to face. After randomizing the heroes, we choose the play order and assign accordingly. This is the important step, since heroes have certain synergies that help out the team in certain seats. Visionary is a great candidate for going first, setting up the heroes and/or villains for the rest of the phase. Legacy, too, is a first-turner, mostly to help me remember Galvanize, but oi.

Of course, I've played a ton of this game, and I know the general feel of most of the decks, what to expect, what to look out for, and that helps tremendously in judging how hard a time a team might have in the upcoming fight. But it's that feeling of overcoming the severe obstacles that make the game such a joy. I used to think Matriarch was the most difficult villain of the bunch, but with certain heroes' abilities, she crumbles to the floor and cries soon after her arrival. There's a level of understanding that comes with the game as you play more and more.

And, yeah. Winning less than a quarter of the games seems extremely low. We win far more often than we lose. Unless we play Iron Legacy, in which case, he wins a bit more than we do.