The Shortest Possible Game

So, during a few games of Sentinels yesterday the question came up of what the shortest possible game of Sentinels would be. A friend of mine came up with the following three-turn victory: Play against Iron Legacy with Nightmist and Tachyon, get Nightmist to use Mists of Time of Tachyon to put all her bursts in her trash, then have Tachyon play Lightning Reflexes followed by a pair of Lightspeed Barrages. There's no prize for spotting the mistake, but it did get us thinking about how quickly it could be done, given a perfect draw.

I did manage to come up with a four-turn victory against Iron Legacy or the Ennead (assuming Nuit doesn't appear):

The villain does their thing.

Legacy plays Inspiring Presence and Galvanises.

Omnitronks plays Slip Through Time, Timeshifts out one of and then plays the other of a 4-type Plating and Defensive Blast, then uses Defensive Blast to hit the villain(s) for 12.

Unity uses Hasty Augmentation on Omnitronks to use Defensive Blast to deal 20 more damage to the villains.

There's also a six-turn version to deal with Akash'Bhuta:

Akash chains together three Primeval Eruptions in order to get out every limb she has.

Legacy plays Inspiring Presence and Galvanises.

Argent Adept plays and uses Syncopated Onslaught to boost Omnitronks' and Akash'Bhuta's damage.

Omnitronks plays Slip Through Time, Timeshifts out one of and then plays the other of a 4-type Plating and Defensive Blast, then uses Defensive Blast to hit the villains for 16. Handily, this is also enough to destroy all her limbs, causing her to deal herself 135 damage.

Chrono-Ranger plays Displaced Armory to get out the hat and deal three damage, chains together four copies of Eye on the Prize for 12 more damage, then plays Sudden Contract to play By Any Means on Akash and deal her four more damage.  Then he shoots her for four.

Unity uses Hasty Augmentation on Omnitronks to use Defensive Blast to deal Akash 28 more damage, which finishes her off.

So, that's the game: pick a villain, choose basic or advanced (my former strategy works on advanced, but the latter does not), and see how quickly they can hypothetically be slaughtered. Defensive Blast is a lovely way to churn out damage, but more creative methods are extremely welcome (as are speedy hero defeats, if anyone can figure out a way to do them that doesn't involve self-harm or murdering the Dreamer).

Shortest would have to be against Dreamer, wouldn't it?  Put Ra first, have him blast her for 6 damage, game over.

I admit it, I lol'd

This is a curious exercise, though the more champs you have, the more opportunity you have to deal lots of damage. If you went after Iron Legacy with 5 and got the perfect card draw… say, AZ's and one other ongoing destruction on the opening draw (can Tempest kill 2 ongoings with one card?), you could get him down to just above his flip point on the first turn (AZ: EW base power, Ra with fire blast + power, Wraith II'ing to get out Razor Ord + Targeting PC, Grandpappy backhand + Wraith using her power… that's well more than enough), and then unless he does something incredibly crazy (I'm not that familiar with him), again with perfect card draw, they'd easily put enough damage into him to finish him off turn 2.

I had a very quick game against Kismet yesterday. Legacy, Ra, Fanatic and Expatriette faced her in the Tomb of Anubis. Fanatic's opening hand contained Divine Focus and Prayer of Desperation. Kismet started her fourth turn, but she didn't finish it.

Our shortest game to date (at least, since we started keeping stats...but I think even including any that came before that) was three rounds, with Legacy, Chrono Ranger, and Redeemer Fanatic against Iron Legacy. I can't remember anything of what cards were played or whatever (it was right after I got hold of Shattered Timelines, so over a month ago now), only that we managed to kick his arse in ten minutes :D.

We've also had several four-round games over the months, against various different people. But only the one three-rounder. So far.

I'm certain five players with a good draw could curbstomp Iron Legacy in 2 turns.  His low hit point total makes a quick victory most likely against him.  Of course, if you don't do that, he's more than willing to take you down within a round or two more.

My quickest game on the other hand was indeed against the Dreamer.  Scholar played Don't Dismiss Anything, and Nightmist flipped up Oblivion, 3, 4.  This was on turn one.

How about Iron Legacy versus Fanatic and team. Iron Legacy and the rest of the heroes attack Fanatic, leaving her at 1 HP. Fanatic plays Wrathful Retribution and Exocism. Will that be enough?

If she is Redeemer Fanatic it would be enough.

Edit: For some reason it didn't dawn on me that Redeemer Fanatic doesn't have Exorcism!

There's a one-round win in the statistics, by someone named thedentist against Mad Bomber Blade; the team is Wraith, Visionary, Ra, AZ (on Mars). I can't see how this is possible though...

It was Second Round on May 4th.

Gloomweaver takes a turn and does NOT play a relic.

O-X uses its base power to reveal a relic and put it into the trash

AA plays Inspiring Supertonic and allows O-X to again use its base power to reveal a second relic and put it into the trash.

The Scholar plays Proverbs and Axioms and O-X elects to deal damage to itself so that it can again use its base power to reveal  a third relic and put it into the trash.

Environment turn.

On Gloomweaver's second turn, Gloomweaver loses due to three relics being in the trash.

Six total turns

Beautiful!

After my faliure with thinking mists of time could work on other heroes *sigh* I feel I aught to make a contribution here. It's hardly as elegant as arenson's but heh. I also aught to say I dont have the set of the game here of my own... so you might have to make do with some shady descriptions.

Numbers in brackets represent infernal numbers on Nightmist's cards.

Turn 1: Iron legacy (Ongoings of 2X galvanise, something else with no damage reduction.) He hits us. Ow. Im assuming he also plays a card which could be useless to him here, possibly another of the something else with no damage reduction. 

Turn 2: Legacy: Inspiring Prescence, Galvanise.

Turn 3: Nightmist: Heedless lash (1) plays Heedless lash (2) plays Heedless lash (3) plays Oblivion (4) which rolls a 4, 4.

Damage total of 4, 5, 6, 6, or 18. Nightmist is now at 6hp minus however much Iron Legacy hits her for, I'm assuming less than 6 (if this is a problem you can switch the heedless lashes around to do a couple less damage to Nightmist and legacy). Iron Legacy took 4, 5, 6, 6, 6, and is at 5hp remaining

Turn 4: Omnitron X: I am not familiar with this deck. I AM familiar with nightmists however. Some random card that could maybe help, then use their power to make Nightmist play the top card of their deck - convieniently Oblivion, rolling another 4, 4, overkilling Iron legacy by a solid 7 points of damage.

This kills both Iron legacy and Nightmist in 4 turns, but heck, isn't that the funnest bit of Nightmist?

There has to be a way to get this done sooner.

Turn 1: Scholar plays Proverbs and Axioms. Legacy Galvanizes! Rook City Wraith makes the environment play a Fixed Point! Omnitron-X goes "Yo scholar, play the top card on your deck!" Ra heals, because why not?

Scholar gets don't dismiss anything. Legacy gets an inspiring presence. Ra gets out an imbued fire. Omnitron-X gets some nice 4-type plating. Wraith gets her hairdryer, whatevs. Scholar gets another Don't Dismiss Anything. Let's do that again! Legacy gets another inspiring presence. Ra gets out another imbued fire. Omnitron X gets another (different) 4-type plating. Wraith gets a grappling hook, sinking the fixed point, declaring that enough of THOSE shenanigans. Scholar gets a know when to hold fast, and ends his turn while enjoying a drink.

Turn 2: Omnitron-X! It gets a out a defensive blast, and hits for... 48 damage, if my math is correct? 8 types of damage, each get +3 from legacy, and +2 from Ra, so 8*6 is 48 damage on turn 2. Iron Legacy is murdered brutally. Wraith asks exactly who shuffled these decks.

WAIT

Scholar plays a Proverbs and Axioms. Legacy Galvanizes! Rook City Wraith topdecks a Fixed Point! Unity and Scholar both heal! Omnitron-X goes "Hey Scholar, play the top card of your deck!" Which is, of course, a Don't Dismiss Anything.

Legacy gets an Inspiring Presence. Unity gets a powered shockwave, for 3 damage to all villains. Omnitron-X gets 4-type plating, Wraith gets whatever, Scholar gets another Don't Dismiss anything.

Legacy gets another inspiring presence. Omnitron-X gets a Defensive Blast. Wraith gets a grappling hook, destroying the fixed point. Scholar gets "Get Out Of The Way", which becomes 4 damage to all non-hero targets. Unity gets hasty augmentation, which lets Omnitron-X use defensive blast, which hits for (1+3+2)*4 is 24 damage. Which, on top of the 7 damage earlier, is 31 damage to all non-hero targets. The Ennead, who didn't start off with Nuit or Geb, are all brutally murdered on turn 1.

If you want Geb-proofing, or to kill Iron Legacy instead, assume Wraith's "whatever" was a throat jab, for an extra 4 damage.

Legacy can only have one Inspiring Presence in play as it is a limited card.

Same with Imbued Fire; Limited can't be got around with Fixed Point. However, using your method the Scholar, Tempest and Ra can possibly do infinite damage: Scholar plays DDE, brings out a Fire Blast, a Reclaim (put the Fire Blast back) and a DDE, which plays Fire Blast and the second Reclaim, which puts back Fire Blast, the first Reclaim, and the first DDE. Then the Scholar plays DDE.

Oh, limited can't be gotten around with Fixed Point? My bad, I thought limited just meant "When it comes into play, if there's an existing card with the same name, destroy it", which Fixed Point would prevent, was unaware there were clarifications on that.

Impressive!! This only needs 2 cards per player! (1 for Ra)

Whoah. I think my brain just broke. That's awesome.

There should be a new Story Challenge - Win on the first hero turn.

Does this actually work?  I've always played one shots where they don't go to the discard pile until their entire effect is resolved.  In this case DDE would not be in the discard pile to be reclaimed since the reclaim was being used as an effect of DDE.

That is exactly true, good work at pointing that out!

Dammit. Hmm... So an infinite combo is not possible, but can we perhaps output insane amounts of card play, power use and damage in a single hero turn?

Let's try this then: The Scholar and Omnitronks, and three others. Let's say Legacy, Chrono-Ranger and TLTachyon. The Scholar plays Proverbs; all heroes may use a power.

Legacy uses Galvanise, Tachyon uses Team Leader. Scholar uses Better Living, because why not. For OX's power, he Timeshifts Scholar, bringing out DDA; all heroes may play a card.

Legacy plays Inspiring Presence, CR plays By Any Means, OX plays Defensive Blast; Tachyon plays Fleet of Foot, Fleet of Foot, Fleet of Foot, Lightning Reflexes, Lightning Reflexes, Supersonic Response, Supersonic Response, Lightspeed Barrage, for a total of 28 damage.The Scholar plays his second DDA; all heroes may play a card.

Chrono-Ranger plays Eye on the Prize, Eye on the Prize, Eye on the Prize, Eye on the Prize, Terrible Tech-Strike, for a total of 25 damage. Legacy plays Back-Fist Strike for 7 damage. Tachyon plays Lightspeed Barrage for 8 damage. OX plays a 4-Type plating, then the Scholar plays Proverbs to allow OX to Defensive Blast for 16 damage. Then CR shoots the big bad for 4.

So that's 88 damage on the first hero turn; good enough for most villains, but probably not optimal. I'll work on it.

EDIT: Tachyon deals 36 damage, and assists nobody, so we can swap her out for Nightmist; play an Amulet of the Elder Gods first, then Heedless Lash [1], Heedless Lash [3], Heedless Lash [2], Oblivion [4], then reveal and discard two more [4]s, for a total of 38 damage (and 19 to herself, or 21 with the Proverb damage).

EDIT EDIT: Actually, why are we using Omnitronks? Play the two DDAs, getting out Inspiring Presence and By Any Means, then play Proverbs for the powers afterwards, mostly to Galvanise, before going back and playing the rest of the available cards. We lose OX's paltry 16, but by putting in both Tachyon and Nightmist we get an impressive total of 110 damage on the first hero turn.

Tachyon's Supersonic Response relies on her being hit, and she's neither the highest nor the lowest HP in that group so her getting hit by the villain is a difficult task.

EDIT: But that's impressive calculating

Don't you mean Synaptic Response? I'm not sure she has a "supersonic" card. Hypersonic, yes, but not supersonic, I don't think?

Synaptic Interruption is the redirection one.

Supersonic Response deals 2 damage as an attack and then 2 additional damage if she was damaged by the target last turn.

Tachyon's quick but surely you have time to read the cards! 

Ohhh that one! Oops, I forgot about that - I don't tend to actually play it that often ;). Plus most of the words in Tachyon's deck are kind of similar (in that they relate to fast speeds) - supersonic, hypersonic, lightning, lightspeed, etc. Then you've got attack words like assault and barrage and I often find I have to mentally double-check I have a card name right (eg I'm not thinking of "Hypersonic Barrage" or "Lightspeed Reflexes") when I'm thinking about her deck and don't have the cards in front of me (like now) ;). I tend to get the picture first, then the name/effect.

Two round victory against the dreamer:

Heroes: any four, including fanatic and omni-x.

First round: The dreamer plays any card

Fanatic plays end of days, which then destroys all of the dreamers initilal projections.

Second round: The dreamer, after flipping, plays a violent nightmares. At the end of it's turn, after attacking the heroes, it plays two more violent nightmares

Omni-x plays some card,and timeshifts the dreamer, bringing out another violent nightmares(There are only three, but they say shuffle the villan trash into the villan deck)

Fanatic plays another end of days.

Environment turn: end of days destroys all of the dreamer's projections, puutting them under her.

next villan turn: because there are h*2 cards under the dreamer, the heroes win

Don't have my decks in front of me right now....  Is chained Primeval Eruption => All the Limbs => End of Days enough to one-shot her?   Potential victory on environment turn 1.

The dreaded Omnitron: dual-electropulse explosive turn 1 is enough to dispatch most hero teams by the start of turn 2.

Man,   I remember when we played a lot of Arkham Horror that you can (and we occasionally did) lose during setup.   Is this possible on SotM?  Can any hero team lose the game before any hero gets a turn?

Possibly.

The End of Days would do 9+10+11+27+30+36 due to multiple Mountainous Carapace=123 so if the Heroes and Environment can do 67 damage in a single round... time for a new thread on the max damage each hero can do in their first turn!

Let's see, if Chrono-Ranger plays By Any Means, Argent Adept boosts Akash'Butha's attack, Rook City Wraith draws an Obsidian Field, and the Visionary plays Twist the Ether, that'd add 48 points of damage. Can more be done?

Well, not quite.

In a five hero game, iron legacy can do twenty-two damage to each hero target using the following sequence

Setup: his five ongoing cards he get out to start would be:

Galvanized, Galvanized, Demoralizing Presence, Demoralizing Presence, Final Evolution

(In that order)

When the final evolution enters play, Iron legacy deals each non-villan target one(I think toxic) damage, which, of course, is buffed by the other ongoings, making it five

Total hero damage:5

Start of villan turn:

Well, Nothing happens.Lame

Total hero damage:5

Villan play phase:

Iron legacy plays "Rule From The Front", causing hime to deal each hero(maybe non-vilan) target (H-1) melee damage. This, after applying all the buffs, is eight damage

Total hero damage:13

End of villan turn:

Iron legacy deals each hero target three melee damage, buffed to seven

Total hero damage: 20

Because of the two demoralizing presence, each hero taret deals themself one psycic damage twice

Total hero damage:22

Sidenote: well, if two or more former allies cards are chained before the rule from the front(They say play the top card of the villan deck), then the reaminng heroes will not be able to play cards as well.

Kind of, I worked a way where you don't use End of Days.

Getting out by any by any means with a sudden contract, or chaining eyes-on-the-prize

If he does that against the Freedom Six (not technically kosher, but certainly thematic), he gets some extra damage from nemesis bonuses and the H=6, which would end up doing 26 damage to the team, leaving only Tachyon, Zero, and Bunker alive. If he plays Vigilance as his sixth card, each remaining hero would have the opportunity to play one card before immediately dying.

EDIT: Was referring to Pppery's IL post.

Wouldn't work, Akash has three layers of Mountainous Carapace to get through.

I thought H values are supposed to be between 3-5? 

Add the following two heroes to the chain(in this order, before chrono-ranger and fanatic)

Argent-adept, mister fixer

Villan turn:After chainging three primeval eruptionas to get all the limbs, the villan plays a disrupt the field and then any card.The environment play of disrupt the field is a fixed point.

Argents turn: Argent adept plays Alacratous subdominant, then uses his power to activate the perform of it, letting mister fixer play a card, riveting crane(the style that makes damage to a target that mr fixer attacked irreducible)

Mr fixer's turn:Mr fixer plays alternating tiger claw(the style that makes mr fixer's damage irreducible). You would think this would be pointless, but remember fixed point…

Mr fixer then strikes, dealing one irreducible damage to ab. This then makes damage to ab irreducible.

Now the remaining heroes can hit ab with one damage as often as they please.

To make up for some of the buffs to ab that you suggested, add the scholar(between fixer and cr)

Scholar's turn: Scholar plays Don't Dismiss anything;

Argent gets out Xu's bell(if i have the type of the songs correctly)

Scholar gets another Don't dismiss anything:

Argent gets out Syncopated onslaught

Scholar gets out Proverbs and Axioms:

Argent uses the power of xu's bell:

Perform:buff another hero and ab(Syncopated onslought)

Accompany:You may use a power now. If you do, destroy this card(Alacratous subdominant)

Argent adept chooses to use her base power, vocalize(activate a perform)

Perform:buff another hero and ab again(Syncopated onslought)

Note: i actually don't have the scholar i am simply using it off of my understanding of it from other forum posts.

Can you expand the scholar chain more, so argent can buff ab a third time?(Heroes:Fixer, Chrono-ranger, Fanatic, Scholar, argent)

Can you emit so much extra damage that this method is better?(Hint: The fixer strike combo adds three damage because the carapaces don't protect ab from hitting herself when they are destroyed.

If you play with 6, H=6.

I know if you played with 2 heros H=3. Thought there might be a similar thing for >5 players.

If you're playing with any number of heroes outside of 3-5, you're totally on your own as to how you play it - that's all homerules.

But with 6 heroes, H=5 would be really easy.

Iron Legacy's card text says you reveal cards until you've revealed (H) Ongoings, then put them into play, but it doesn't say what order you put them into play in, so presumably you could put the Final Evolution into play first if you didn't want to take tons of extra damage.

If you wanted to: This shows how close you can come to losing during setup.

Still, 18 vs 22: no big diffrence, youre doomed either way

Oh, I don't disagree. I once got something very close to this start - only a 4 player game, so no Final Evolution, and Iron Legacy's card was Flying Assault. I think Haka managed to survive all the way to turn 5.

We got Legacied to start round 2 once, he did like 10-15 damage to everyone first turn, then we all played, then he threw down and killed all of us.

Actually, if we rearange the heroes(mr fixer after scholar, instead of before) then argent can buff ab yet a third time

New sequence

Villian turn:the same

Argents turn:Argent play Syncopated onslaught (Instead of alacratous subdominant), and then uses his power to buff ab(instead of letting mr fixer play a card)

Scholars turn:Filling in more blanks in the dde chain

First dde:Mr fixer gets out alternating tiger claw, argent gets out Alacratous subdominant(Instead ofsyncopated onsolought)

Second dde:Mr fixer gets out riveting crane, argent gets out xu's bell

Proverbs:unchanged

You can't get a fourth because there are only two wasy for argent to activate the perform of a rythym

Ambuscade draws Run And Gun seventeen times in a row.

With all of that re-shuffling, this might not be that fast of a game from a "real time" perspective, but in terms of gameplay, what could be faster than that?

Ironic

Ambuscade can't draw run and gun more than twice, he has only 2 in his deck and the first one is still in play when the second one is played, you don't discard the cards until ALL instructions on it have been executed, including any new card plays that trigger because of it. If no external force (e.g. an environment card) lets him play more than one card per turn, it will never be in the trash to be shuffled in on the same turn it is played.

Had a first round Ennead win on Advanced, they had Shu, Isis, Atum, Nephtys, Tefnut in play, Omnitron-X played Elemental Exochasis and then Timeshifted Defensive blast into play.  Legacy had Inspiring Presence, so he did that and Galvanize, Haka did Rampage for 7 damage to each of the Ennead (other than Shu), then Unity played Hasty Augmentation and Omni hit all the Ennead for 24 damage, clearing the field.

Once Omni had Blast, Elemental and Temporal to discard we knew we had it.  Had no plan of doing it till then.  I played Unity for Cryo Bot Legacy (devestating before they flip) and Hasty+Defensive Blast, but we didn't even think about a five turn win until it was set up.

Got Lucky with cards and not getting Geb or Nuit.  Probably isn't the worst chance of pulling off though.

EDIT:  My B-i-L just informed me we messed up, and yes, we did.

Omni was at +4 damage, which means Defensive blast would have done 20, not 24.  So we should have had Shu at 4hp, Tefnut at 2hp, Atum at 3hp, and Nephthys at 1hp  I guess you'd need a fifth for Argent to boost damage again.  Don't know why we went wrong on the Math.

congrats, that's pretty sexy, especially against a villain as tough as the Ennead.  Hasty Augmentation + Defensive Blast = Pretty good!

Matchstick:   You're right, but I think Ironic has got it!      All you have to do is throw in Quick Stim Patch and it's done, a  loss for heroes before any hero gets a turn.

 Run&Gun, Run&Gun, Stim Patch:  Repeat until all heroes are dead.   Nice work, Ironic.

I don’t think that works. After Run&Gun, Run&Gun, Quick Stim Patch, all three cards are still in play (as you’re still executing their instructions). So you don’t shuffle them into the deck, and you run out of such cards.

If there were a card that did something like “play a card at the end of the villain turn”, then it might have the effect you’re looking for.

hm... great, now you're going to make me look up a rule that's not in the rulebook =p.

the only thing I found after checking the faq was that One-Shot cards enter play and then are immidiately placed in the trash.   So.. dpt..   where did you find this ruling you're talking about?

You don't read the card from the trash, you read it while it's in play, once it has finished doing stuff then you put it in the trash. You don't need an offical ruling on common sense.

Run& Gun:   I deal a hero damage, I shuffle,  I play a card from the villain deck.   (R&G in play)

I play a card from the villain deck.   R&G #1 is fully resolved, it goes in the trash.

The card played is Run&Gun #2 ,  deals a hero target some damage, shuffles the deck, plays a card from the deck.

now that i think about it, I guess you wouldnt need stim-patch after all.   why wouldnt this work?

Because "play a card" doesn't resolve until the card tht's played is resolved. So until all the played cards in this chain resolve, none of them are fully resolved.

You have a point, would Run & Gun wait for the text of the next card to be resolved before going to the trash?

From the manual:

ONE-SHOT:  A keyword appearing on Hero and Villain cards.  The effects of a One-Shot card happen immediately upon being played, after which the One-Shot card is moved to the appropriate trash.

The question is which takes priority, the effects immediately being played, or the card moving to the trash after being resolved.

Another timing question.  I don't think we have a ruling on that.

I always play that the card resolves, go to the trash, then the card that pulled it goes to the trash, so that in a sequence of cards the first one played (that started the "chain"of cards) is the last one to hit the trash.

Text is activated upon being played, and the one-shot going to the trash happens once its effects are resolved.

So, you could argue that the first Run & Gun going to the trash and the activation of the second one's text are simultaneous, and would result in:

1st R&G Plays the top card of the villain deck

2nd R&G is played

1st R&G is resolved and therefore goes to the trash (because the card and effect sending it to the trash predate 2nd card)

2nd R&G's text activates, dealing damage then shuffling trash into the deck.

I don't know if we have a ruling that sorts this out, or if we need one, but it is a valid question.

I am leaning toward it stays in play till the other cards are resolved, but I could see it going the other way.

My group had a turn like that when I was manning the villain deck once.  Except it alternated between RnG and QSP.  After I had played each card twice, RapScallion just took the deck from my hands and shuffled it instead.  He thankfully broke my bad shuffling streak!

In detial:

Ambuscade plays run and gun:

(Each hero two damgae)total:two

Shuffle villan trash :none

Play villan card(run and gun)

         (Each hero two damgae)total:four

          Shuffle villan trash :none

           Play villan card(Quick sitm-pacth)

                     Regain H Hp: no effect

                    Shuffle villan trash :none

                      Play villan card (Run and gun?)

                            There are only two uin the deck and they are both in play

                      In Play:(run and gun x2, wuick stim patch)

                       Trash:none

           In play:(run and gun x 2)

           Tarch:quick stim patch

In play:(run and gun)

Trash:(run and gun x2, wuick stim patch)

Doesn't help to add patch

yes i understood that interpretation.   But it seems we have two conflicting possibilities that require clarification on when exactly a card goes into the trash.    Granted,  the chances of a instant hero-loss this way are so astoundingly slim that it's comical to be arguing about this... but nevertheless, I don't think we solve this one without a ruling.

don't they have to go to the trash immediately after being resolved? Otherwise the Ennead wouldn't work properly.

Yes, after being fully resolved.

If the card itself says play a card then you interrupt whatever you are doing and resolve the new card before continuing on with the old card, the same way it happens for every other interaction in the game e.g. The Ultimate Target 'interrupting' a villain hitting multiple targets, after the first hit Chrono-ranger gets to use a power. Similarly, after the 'new' card has been fully resolved, then go back to the old card and check to see if it has any more instructions, if none, put it in the trash.

Yes, but they don't resolve until the card they caused to be played gets resolved.

Why?

Is there a ruling that says this?  Or do we assume it.  If a card says to play a card, that is not a response, it does not interrupt the card's effect, it is an effect of the card, and the effect resolves the instant the next card hits the field.  Upon its effects being resolved it goes to the trash, and upon the new card entering play the text is activated.

I believe we do have a ruling that cards that respond to a card entering play activate before the text of the card that triggered it.  So wouldn't a card that leaves play when that card enters play leave play before the text is resolved?  It seems the same timing to me.

Bolded a bit in your reply to explain.

So, as we accept that cards entering play enter play before they are played, play cannot mean entering play. So what does "play" mean in this context? It must mean enters play and activates. If we accept that it means enters "play and activates the card's effects", until all tohse effects are activated the "play" action is not completed. As the "play action is not completed, the part of the previous card that says "Play the top card of the villain deck" is not is also not completed and the card cannot be discarded.

There is the logic to the ruling, at least as I understand it.

So, as we accept that cards entering play enter play before they are played, play cannot mean entering play. So what does "play" mean in this context?

I don't get what you mean here.  To play a card means to put it into play.  A card is not played before it is played.  It is put into play, then the text is activated.  The text activating does not stop things that react to a card being played from activating, and what is the original card being put into the appropriate trash but an effect that happens when the text of the card is resolved.

If the action of playing the card was not completed until the text resolves a destruction one-shot would not be responded to by the card it is trying to destroy that acts when a card is played.  Yet the ruling is that the reaction happens when the card enters play, before it resolves its text.

A one-shot does not enter the trash until its text is resolved, but with the current definition of what constitutes a card being played (entering play but before text is resolved) it would seem that run & gun should enter the trash before the card it plays is resolved.

Sorry, can you clarify this bit I don't think I understand what you are saying.

I think you are saying that if a card destroys another card it doesn't react until the complete card text resolves, is that what you are saying?

…

Actually can you give an example using cards we all know about, that might make it clearer (say grappling hook and explosives wagon?)

I am not sure if I agree with this. A card entering play immediately has its text resolved. There aren't two distinct steps. Instead, there is a rule that you resolve cards in the order they are played. So in this situation, you have 2 cards that act at the same time, the One-Shot immediately triggers when it enters play, as well as a trigger when a card is played, like PEF. You aren't playing the trigger first because there are 2 distinct steps, you are playing it first because we have 2 abilites that would trigger at the same time, and you go in the order they were played.

This also explains why you still have the full effect of a card when you play a One-Shot that destroys that card. Both trigger at the same time, therefore you first resolve the card that was out first (not the One-Shot).

Therefore, here, you would play a card, resolve its inherent trigger of resolving the cards effect, then finish resolving the first card and move it into the trash. 

EDIT: I know there have been threads that say you play the card "face down," perform all triggers, then turn the card face up. I just don't know how that can be solved with the Negative Energy Field ruling. The explanation I gave is how arenson9 views the whole system (sorry i didn't quote him originally), and it seems to explain everything (except Fowls+HTR).

Therefore, here, you would play a card, resolve its inherent trigger of resolving the cards effect, then finish resolving the first card and move it into the trash. 

You don't resolve the first card, the first card is resolved the instant the text on the card is completed.  When Run and Gun plays a card, as soon as that card enters play, it is resolved.  It requires no other action, it has fulfilled its text, it has resolved.

The only question is of the timing of it going to the trash.  Does Run and Gun resolving interrupt, like a response, the activation of the card it played?  Do the effects count as simultaneous effects of different cards (in which case Run and Gun would be resolved first) or does the resolution of Run and Gun sit and wait until the card it plays is done, then get to go to the trash.

I'm not saying that it necessarily must be this way, but the question has gained traction with current rulings and needs to be asked.

The question of whether or not a basic rule of gameplay has timing like an effect of a card, or if it has a seperate timing is important, and I haven't found a ruling that covers it.

Actually can you give an example using cards we all know about, that might make it clearer 

IL Vigilence and Grappling hook.  You play Grappling Hook to destroy Vigilence.  Vigilence deals you 2 damage for playing a card then is destroyed.

Vigilence responds to a card being played.  Grappling Hook is counted as being played, and triggers the appropriate response before any of its text is activated.  https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/iron-legacys-vigilance-4063 is a recent discussion of this.

Following the rulings made it seems that a card is counted as being played before its text resolves, and that anything that triggers upon the card being played happens before the text resolves.  That makes sense to me, because the act of putting a One Shot into play causes the activation of the text, as well as the activation of any other effects that trigger when that card is played, like IL's Vigilence, or in this case the resolution and removal to the trash of Run and Gun.  Simultaneous effects are resolved in card play order, and Run and Gun was there first.

Since Run and Gun is only playing the card (at that stage in timing), once that card is played Run and Gun is resolved and by rule is to be sent to the appropriate trash.  It seems to me that that effect, like IL's Vigilence would then occur, and then you would continue on to resolve the text of the next card, which if it were a second run and gun would deal damage then shuffle the trash into the deck before playing the top card.

The real question is whether basic rules, like when the text is resolved or that the text of a one-shot is activated when played have timing like card effects, or even of their own kind (since the two effects we are debating are both effects of the rule book).  I think we need an actual ruling on this.

So let's start at the beginning. Is the order the following"

1) Play a card.

2) Triggers on cards being played

3) Card (text) enters play

If this is true, then when a card says play a card, it is completeld on step #1, is resolved, and goes to the trash. However, we know for a fact that this isn't true. The Negative Energy Field ruling says that it can hit the target that was just played. This wouldn't be possible unless its hp is in the game. Now you could agrue that hp and the text are different, but I will bring up the point that Spiff brings up constantly, "where has it ever been said that a card and its text come into play at different times?" Furthermore, can HTR hit a card with damage reduction or immunity? If you say that the text comes in later, then no, but this doesn't make much sense.

So now we have to understand what is going on. Every card has 2 types of text, static modifires (name, hp, type, damage increase/decrease, etc.) and trigers. All static modifiers are in place all the time, and come into effect the moment they enter play. Triggers always have something that triggers them. With Equipment and Ongoings, the trigger will be written explicitly, with One-Shots, the trigger is being played. Keep in mind though, that if triggers happen at the same time, you go in card play order.

So let's say you have 1 hp left with NEF in play, and you want to play Suture Self. Here is how it will look:

1) Play Suture.

2) Look for triggers, we have two: 1) Suture, 2) NEF. They will both trigger now, so we go in card play order.

2a) NEF hits for 1.

2b) Would have been Suture, but poor Wraith is incapped.

Now we know that trigers interrupt all actions, so inherently, the card itself has its own triggers and needs to finish resolving before the first card goes to the trash. We never see anywhere that you delay a trigger to resolve a different action.

And it is resolving an action. As part of the nature of One-Shots, it has 3 elements to it.

1) Put it in play.

2) Triggers the text.

3) Move to the trash.

Since this is inherent to every One-Shot, you do not need to say "move to the trash" on every single card (look at a whole bunch of Environment cards for when it does need to say "destroy this card" because they aren't One-Shots). This is the nature of One-Shots. Also, don't get hung up on it saying "move to the trash" and not destroy, because the cards aren't destroyed, and, therefore, not affected by Fixed Point, Ammo Drop, etc. Therefore, "moving to the trash" is the final step of the card, and its resolution. You do not resolve the card until the card it played is resoved, which includes playing the card and activating its text.

On a completely separate note, I am not sure why everyone is interepretting "play a card" as defining a separate step. There are sevearl good reasons why it is worded this way, and it is to distinguish from other cases, not to define a step.

"play a card from the top" vs "take from trash" - Here the emphasis is on where the card is coming from.

"play a card" vs "reveal a card" - This purposely gets around certain rules (e.g. Timeshift).

"play a card" vs "entering play" - "Entering play" is a more general and inclusive term. If HTR only said "when a target is played" it would not hit anything coming from the trash. I think the difference here is to be more inclusive, not to define a separate step.

Pydro, I don't actually know if we agree or not.

So let's start at the beginning. Is the order the following"

1) Play a card.

2) Triggers on cards being played

3) Card (text) enters play

I disagree that a text doesn't enter play, I say it does, but it has to wait its turn to act.  The text has to be activated.  HP, Targets, all these static modifiers that don't have to be activated of course are live as soon as they hit the field, which is why the >G guys have to reconsider Hairtrigger vs. Fowl cards, since the current rulings would cause the fowl card not to play anyother fowl cards when Hairtrigger kills it.  The target enters play, triggering its text to activate and Hairtrigger, since Hairtrigger was out first it activates first and kills the Fowl card.  As we know when you destroy a card mid-activation it doesn't get to finish.  The fact that this is a problem they have to look into pretty much validates this process.

Just like any card order ruling, all the text is in play, and it all qeues up to act in the order the cards entered play.

So let's say you have 1 hp left with NEF in play, and you want to play Suture Self. Here is how it will look:

1) Play Suture.

2) Look for triggers, we have two: 1) Suture, 2) NEF. They will both trigger now, so we go in card play order.

2a) NEF hits for 1.

2b) Would have been Suture, but poor Wraith is incapped.

I agree with this, I think it is pretty standard with current rulings.

And it is resolving an action. As part of the nature of One-Shots, it has 3 elements to it.

1) Put it in play.

2) Triggers the text.

3) Move to the trash.

Also agree with this.  (although I use activate the text as trigger seems to lead to other conclusions)

Therefore, "moving to the trash" is the final step of the card, and its resolution. You do not resolve the card until the card it played is resoved, which includes playing the card and activating its text.

I don't know where this is coming from, it doesn't seem to follow from your arguments.

On a completely separate note, I am not sure why everyone is interepretting "play a card" as defining a separate step. 

It is only a seperate step in the sense that when a card deals damage to every target each target being dealt damage is a seperate step.

It only matters because of the definitions, a card is played when it enters play, then its text activates.  That is a seperate step for the purposes of resolving any effect that activates when a card enters play.  The effects would be simultaneous and are resolved by card order.

My point here was a response to your comment about the card not being fully resolved. The card isn't fully resolved once another card is played, but rather it is fully resolved once it finishes its last inherent step, "moving to the trash." As with all other triggers, you completely resolve the previous once, before finishing the first one. If let's say there was another line after "play a card," you would still activate the card fully before going on to the next action. So too here, you fully resolve the card before going to the final step, "moving to the trash."

Maybe I am not understanding you. I thought you were saying the following:

We have 3 steps:

1. Play a card.

2. Triggers on "play a card"

3. Activate the original card.

Since these are 3 separate steps, when a card says play a villain card, it is completed after step one. So it would look like sometihng like this:

1. Play a card.

2. Discard original card.

3. Triggers on "play a card"

4. Activate the played card.

I was responding to this interpretation. I don't think it can work like this, because playing a card and its text activation would inherently be connected. In my opinion, there are 2 possible interpretations. 1) Playing a card and activating its text are intrinsically connected, so taht play a card = activate its text. If so, you would activate the text before discarding the original card, since its text of "play a card" wasn;t full resolved. 2) T he text is triggered on its own play. If the text is "triggered," you would still resolve the triggered ability before going to the last step of "moving to the trash," since we always stop play to fulfill triggers. (This makes the most sense.)

OK, I think I get our disagreement here.

My point here was a response to your comment about the card not being fully resolved. The card isn't fully resolved once another card is played, but rather it is fully resolved once it finishes its last inherent step, "moving to the trash."

To me the effect of moving to the trash is not from the card itself, but a static "on the board" effect from the rule book, so instead of being intrinsic to the card like an additional line of text, it is a response to the resolution of text that sends the card to the trash.

This is why I say it is a timing question that needs an official answer.

It can be seen as a trigger that responds to the resolution of the card, and thus would have interruption power, or like you argue the timing of an additional line of text that wouldn't interrupt at all, but wait in line to activate.

I can see it coming down both ways, but we don't have any ruling on the type of effect intfinsic rules have.

My argument is that a One-Shot coming into play activating its text and a One-Shot finished having effect going to the trash have the same origin for their happening, the rule book.  It seems to me that they would have the same timing as any rulebook rule, which includes a target reaching 0hp being destroyed, which can take place in the middle of an action, interrupting a card text becasue its condition is reached.

We do this with Beebot and sonic mine all the time, a condition is reached that a target hits zero HP, and the rule book interrupts whatever else is happening and destroys that card.  You can end up with multiple chains where sonic mine is triggered, and then beebot is triggered, etc.

So to a One-Shot entering play activating text is a rule-book trigger.

I argue that a One-Shot resolved going to the trash is the same timing, and would tie with the one-shot text activating, and resolve by card order.  

Card order is irrelevant for Run and Gun (and any similar effects), as Run and Gun can't be considered to have finished resolving until the card played by it has fully resolved.

Turn 2, Four Heroes, Infinte Damage (three targets). Scholar, Ra, Absolute Zero, and Rook City Wraith in the Time Cataclysm.

Turn 1: Villain does their thing.

Turn 2: Scholar goes first and plays Don't Dismiss Anything (I think DDA doesn't depend on turn order)

Ra reveals Imbued Fire from his deck and puts it into play.

Absolute Zero reveals Isothermic Transducer and puts it into play.

Scholar reveals Proverbs and Axioms from his deck and puts it into play (I don't think P&A depends on turn order)

Note that Wraith has not used the effect from DDA, yet.

Scholar heals for 2.

Rook City Wraith takes three damage and uses her innate power to reveal Fixed Point from the Environment deck and put it into play.

Absolute Zero takes 3 damage to use a power. Imbue Fire changes it to fire and boosts it to 4.

  Since AZ took 4 fire he now deals 1 target 4 cold. He chooses to hit himself again. Imbue Fire changes it to fire and boosts it to 5.

    Since AZ took 5 fire he now deals 1 target 5 cold. He chooses to hit himself again. Imbue Fire changes it to fire and boosts it to 6.

      Since AZ took 6 fire he now deals 1 target 6 cold. He chooses to hit himself again. Imbue Fire changes it to fire and boosts it to 7.

        ...

AZ keeps doing that even after he goes into the negative HP since Fixed Point keeps him alive. Once he gets a big enough blast ready he hits one target with it for like 1000 damage. He can then do the same thing with the damage he takes from his power and the damage he takes from Ra for a total of 3 targets.

Now that Proverbs and Axioms has resolved we finish the effect from Don't Dismiss Anything. Wraith reveals Grappling Hook from her deck and puts it into play destroying Fixed Point. The three targets and AZ vaporize in an isolated supernova.

Chuck in a second DDA and (with Ra and AZ playing damage-dealers) you can take out five targets, allowing you to ruin the Ennead.

You are correct, P&A is heroes choice as to order, I can't find any mistakes, so you win at least one timeline of the Multiverse.

To date, our shortest game was Legacy, Haka, Ra, and The Scholar against Ambuscade.  It didn't go three rounds.

Yeah, does anyone have examples of their fastest real life game?

Dying to Iron Legacy turn 6, his turn to start round two we all died.

Fastest Win was also IL, he nuked down Fanatic and round 2, I think third hero of four she Retributioned him to death.  That would be 9 turns, second round.

I've never seen our group have a game with Iron Legacy that's gone more than 3 rounds, no matter the outcome.

We had one really long one, it involved Legacy getting set up to tank right off the bat and the rest of us losing our cards all the time.

Attaching a Twist the Ether to Legacy can really slow down a game with all of his snow cone punches that kiss Absolute Zero's sleek, reflective face.

This is perhaps not a proper example, as it happened during playtesting of Rook City such that the cards were not as they are today. Jaymann can maybe help my memory, but we were playing against the Matriarch in the Pike Industrial Complex and on the first round some combination of boosts to all damage followed by something from the environment destroying a bunch of fowl followed by a Darken the Skies meant that all of the heroes went down on Matriarch's second turn.

Wait!

If you replace chrono-ranger with omni-x after everyone else, argent can buff ab five times, and he can even destroy all the limps, so end of days isn't necessary!one turn sooner win!You can also then remove fanatic, making a fifth turn win!

All previous turns :unchanged

Omni-x's turn:

Omni-x's plays from the don't dismiss anything are two diffrent 4-type platings.

On his turn, Omni-x plays the defensive blast, then timeshifts the scholar, getting out a second proverbd and axioms(if there are two of them, remember, i don't have the scholar), argent buffs ab  and omni-x twice, using the same method explained in my first quoted post. Omni-x uses the defensive blast to hit for 48!!!

Wait!

If you replace chrono-ranger with omni-x after everyone else, argent can buff ab five times, and he can even destroy all the limps, so end of days isn't necessary!one turn sooner win!You can also then remove fanatic, making a fifth turn win!

All previous turns :unchanged

Omni-x's turn:

Omni-x's plays from the don't dismiss anything are two diffrent 4-type platings.

On his turn, Omni-x plays the defensive blast, then timeshifts the scholar, getting out a second proverbd and axioms(if there are two of them, remember, i don't have the scholar), argent buffs ab  and omni-x twice, using the same method explained in my first quoted post. Omni-x uses the defensive blast to hit for 48!!!

Ah yes, this was back when one of the cards Pike Industrial Compex reduced the maximum HP of all targets (or at least all non-environment targets) by one, thus having fowl cards enter play at zero HP, causing self destruction of a very long bird chain, followed then by a Darken the Skies placing them all back into play to explode again.  After the proper release they reworded the card to no longer affect the maximum HP of targets, then later the Enhanced Edition did the same for the original release.

However that chain can stuill happen witth suprise shopping trip

Last Wednesday I beat Baron Blade in 4 rounds.  I was playing on Advanced with 5 players, so there was a realistic possibility of Terralunar Impulsion, but Blade didn't manage to luck into that, and my team included Legacy and he got Inspiring Presence, as well as Tempest and the Scholar.  The heroes fired on all cylinders, and Blade went down in one round after flipping thanks to Tempest's Shackles and Lightning Storm, Scholar's Proverbs and Axioms, and Haka's Rampage.  Chrono-Ranger rounded out the group; he didn't do an awful lot, but when you're firing 1-damage shots twice a turn and have at one point TWO Galvanizes and Inspiring Presence stacked on you, you don't need  your own really good combos to work.  I believe it wasn't even to the second hero's turn on round 4 before Blade's 30 HP ran out, even with a Living Force Field and his Advanced reduction.  Tempest got a Lightning Slash on the last round and that was that.  We didn't even get any real help from the Environment.

Hello future forumites reading old threads, do we have hover cars yet?

The Run&Gun/Quick Stim Patch question was asked and answered of Christopher in person, you can find the ruling here

Thank goodness!  I always had a bad habit of drawing a Run and Gun into a Quick Stim Patch into a Run and Gun into a Quick Stim Patch into a-(at this point someone usually snatches the deck away from me and plays a card that doesn't have a "Play the top card of the villain deck" as a rider).

Take that, Ambuscade!

The other one that can be nasty for that is...Diversionary Tactics, I think it's called. One of Miss Information's cards. Akash'Bhuta's Primeval Eruption can be a funny one too. Or Disrupt the Field playing a Primeval Eruption which plays another Primeval Eruption (yes I've had that happen ;)).