Fixed Point and the Ennead

According to the glossary definition of Indestructible, "If a card is indestructible, it cannot be...removed from play". The definition of a One-Shot is that "the effects of a One-Shot card happen immediately upon being played, after which the one-shot card is moved to the appropriate trash". The various abilities on Ennead members all happen the first time a card is put into the Villain trash each turn.

Am I right in thinking that One-Shots stay in play while the Fixed Point is out, so that the secondary abilities of the Ennead only take place at the start of the next Environment turn, when those Villain One-Shots are moved to the trash? And furthermore, that you can choose to flip any Ennead members who were reduced to 0 hit points during that time before resolving those cards?

They may enter play, but they aren't actually in play. So the one-shots would be moved to the trash after their effect and trigger the Ennead for doing so.

I agree on the outcome, though the way I'd state  it is that although one shots are played, they do not enter play.

So that would mean when you play a one-shot in Time Cataclysm while Suprise Shopping Trip is in play than it doesn't trigger and doesn't deal everyone 1 melee damage?

Edit: Just to make it more clear, Suprise Shopping Trip says something along the lines of "when a card enters play deal all target 1 melee damage"

Now that I have a little bit more time and can actually check my decks before spouting off non-sense and actually check the card before I attempt to recall. As I may have been wrong with how it works and if I was wrong than I would of withdrawn my previous comment. Though since I was correct I can no state why I am almost posite One-Shots infact enter play. Though it does mess up my previous thing that One-Shots are not actually in play, though I still don't think they will stick around until Fixed Point is gone, though it is possible.

Anyways! Enough rambling. The card Ghostly Images states "When this card enters play, each player reveals the top card ot their deck. If it is a one-shot, put it into play. If it is not a one-shot, discard it and deal that hero 2 psychic damage." Since it says to put it into play, and as it is exclusively one-shots and can't be agrued that one-shots can't count as some people have tried to do with Omni-X's base power. Since this card says to put it into play, it has thus entered play. Which makes me say that whenever someone plays one-shots it has to enter play.

Now of course that ruins my thought on Fixed Point and one-shots and don't really have a reason as to why it doesn't work. In fact one-shots by actually stay in play, I have no idea anymore, though it does create a few awkward situations.

From the EE Rulebook:

"Card Types. One-Shot. One-Shot cards come into play, have an immediate effect, then go to the appropriate trash."

I would say the rulebook makes it rather clear how one-shots function in this regard.

I think the better question here, for Fixed Point at least, is do One-Shots "leave play" when they head to the trash. I thought it has been ruled somewhere that one-shots do not "leave play" so to speak, but I am unable to point to a source to where I got that idea from. Essentially this would prevent Oneshots from hanging on the board with Fixed Point out, but allow them to trigger things like Shopping Spree and whatnot

Oh, I always look in the glossary for definitions, which words it slightly differently. In fact I haven't even looked into the EE rulebook. Haven't even read a SotM rulebook since my first few game of SotM which was nearly 2 years ago. Still odd about different wording in 2 parts of the book. I blame the playtesters for not proof-reading to make sure things are consistant.

Edit: I do agree though that I think there is something that would prevent one-shots from staying around, but at the same time I can't pin point it thus I can't say why it would function that way.

I would think that when one-shots are played, they then go to the trash, meaning they are put in the trash, and aren't "destroyed." Fixed Points makes stuff indestructible, meaning it can't be destroyed. One-shots are never destroyed, therefore aren't affected by Fixed Point and are just put in the trash as normal. I'd say the same would go for any case where a card returns to your hand (eg Mr Fixer's tools) as well, because again, that's returning to your hand, not being destroyed.

Indestructible's very definition is "it cannot be destroyed or removed from play" I can't even count how many times I have typed that. So Mr. Fixer could play multiple tools because of this, as they are indestructible from Fixed Point and cannot be removed from play.

Ah okay, I don't know whether I've ever looked at the official definition, just assumed that indestructible means "cannot be destroyed". I didn't think that being returned to your hand was technically the same thing. I suppose it's only something that'll come up with Fixed Point, anyway.

The problem with the idea that one-shots get destroyed is that it makes things like Anubis behave very differently - every time a one-shot is played his effect would go off.

No one is saying that one-shots get destroyed though.

Again with the fixed point!  I would have to say that they stay on the board, doing nothing.  This makes a few mechanics kind of awkward during a fixed point, namely The Ennead and Lightspeed Barrage, but apart from that I think it works with the essence of a fixed point.

Think of a picture with a hero/villain in the middle.  Now draw a line from the edge of the paper to the hero/villain.  That line, for the purpose of this example, constitutes a one shot.  It is an action, but an action that you can see, from beginning to end, the whole while everything is in a fixed point.  Now imagine erasing that line.  That would be the fixed point ending.  New actions happen, but after they happen you can't see them anymore.  Hope that's more helpful than confusing.

I'm gunna have to agree with those that say the one-shots stay in play.  As other have pointed out, there are several effects that "put into play" one-shots, so I'd agree they're in play.  If Indestructable says "cannot be destroyed or removed from play", I assume that would cover one-shots as well, as their EE edition says that after their effects go off, they are "moved to the appropriate trash", thus, cannot be "removed" would work for them.  Thus, I'd say they come into play and resolve like normal, and then just kinda hang around.

That said, I do think that once Fixed Point is gone, the one-shots would be discarded as normal.  My guess is that a one-shot "stuck" in play would be just like a 0 hp target.  Once the effect preventing it from being destroyed is gone, it goes away.  This just means that The Ennead would do all their fu at the start of the next environment turn, instead of during the villain turn.

Just my $0.02

OK, I agree with what I see as the growing consensus -- one shots enter play. They are never destroyed, but they leave play after doing whatever they do. When Fixed Point is in play, one shots stay in play, but upon Fixed Point leaving play, they immediately go to the trash.

That means, then, that if something happens based on how many cards a hero has in play, if there are one shots in play due to Fixed Point, then they get counted.

Oh man this just got way, way more complicated.  While I can see the logic, I would really hate having to keep track of all of that.  ESPECIALLY with characters that can play multiple cards in a turn.

Why? It's a limited circumstance.

Yes, but The Ennead is a reasonably complicated deck as far as timing rules go.  I'm not saying it's the end of the world, but this sounds like a nuance that will be lost on a lot of players.  It wasn't ever brought up in playtesting (which isn't to say it doesn't work that way, it's just something to note) and the limited circumstance could become even more convoluted with certain Environments.  Again, I'm not making an argument for or against this interpretation of the rules.  I'm just saying it seems complicated.

Just deal with it one card at a time as they go away. Big problems are easier to resolve if you break them down into smaller pieces. :D

I understand that it can be resolved by breaking down the individual cards one at a time.  What I'm expressing is an opinion.  I don't expect anyone to agree with me or disagree with me.  It's just a perspective.  If the official ruling goes that way, I'll work with it.  If not, then I'll keep playing it the way I have been.  I appreciate what you're saying, but I think this is just a subject that we have differing viewpoints on.  After all, it takes all kinds of fruits to make fruitcup.

Depending on how many cards the Ennead end up with hanging around, when they go it could end up being positively lethal to the heroes.

Are we sure that "removed from play" in this sense isn't referring to an effect akin to Unforgiving Wasteland?  Doesn't Into the Stratosphere put a "non-indestructible" card on the top of the villain deck? 

Why would the "non-indestructible" qualifier be needed if removal from play in this fashion was already prohibited by a card's indestructibility?   Especially since "non-indestructible" was specifically added in EE. 

I may be way off base. I'm by no means a rules guru and to be honest I had to pause a few times while posting this to make sure my thought logic was accurate (which it still might not be). 

I think that clause was added in purely in order to make assurance doubly sure, and not because it was necessary from a rules perspective. I mean, how many people read the glossary looking for rules? I didn't do it for months.

I'm at a bit of a loss as to what you mean by "removed from play" is referring to the Unforgiving Wasteland. As the Unforgiving Wasteland has nothing to do with removing from play, as it removed cards from the game.

The Ennead triggers only happen once per turn, so if there are a bunch of one-shots going to the trash all on the same turn, that would probably be far less lethal than those one-shots going to the trash on different turns.

Yeah, but when you have up to nine possible different effects going off...

Considering that Fixed point will only be around for one round, you should only have the same amount of cards moved to the trash as it would of played on the Ennead's turn. So it's pretty much instead of triggering on their turn they will at the start of the environment. So i'm not really getting why this will be so much harder to keep track of.

So after re-reading this thread, I had a question: Why are we assuming that One-Shots will go the the trash after FP leaves play. The rulebook says (Thanks Foote!):

Card Types. One-Shot. One-Shot cards come into play, have an immediate effect, then go to the appropriate trash.

Why wouldn't you consider this a one time chance, if you missed it, you missed it. It would be similar to a Tool or Mode card, the removal effect only happens once, when the card comes into play. If you can't remove the card then, there is nothing that triggers that statement again.

I know this sounds a bit weird, but we do have a bounty that just hangs around and does nothing. The only thing you would have to worry about is not to play any One-Shots that round.

Of course, I could also see someone just saying that One-Shots are different, hence the question.

It seems like you could make the same argument that targets in negative HP aren't immediately destroyed when Fixed Point goes away, but the ruling going back to Advanced Matriarch is that they are.

To be honest, while it is in line with the letter of the rules, I've always considered it unlikely that Fixed Point was ever intended to keep One-Shots in play anyway.

Fixed Point only prevents cards from being destroyed. It says nothing about preventing cards from going into the trash. Being moved from play and put into the trash is a baked-in mechanic for One-Shots. It says so right in the rulebook. I do not see how this is even an issue. Fixed Point does not keep One-Shots in play. 

Fixed Point makes everything indestructible.

"Indestructible: If a card is indestructable, it cannot be destroyed or removed from play...."

I would say that putting it in the trash removes it from play.

EDIT: Nevermind, just re-read your previous post. You don't think that it counts as leaving play.

https://greaterthangames.com/comment/27220#comment-27220

Ah yeah, thats right. Maybe I should have re-read the thread too haha

One-Shots do come into play. If we learned anything from the Imbued Vitality, it is that if a card enters play, it leaves play as well when its gone. One-Shots would have to follow for consistancy. Hmmm. 

I spent a bit too much time writting this argument with many more words.  Foote made the argument much more efficiently.

In order for Fixed Point to affect a card there has to be a possibility that it can be destroyed. One-shots are never destroyed or removed from play. They are simply played. If Fixed Point can apply to them, then Bunker's ammo drop should get you an extra card every time a villain One-shot is played.

First I do find it funny that everyone before my post assumed it does affect it, and everyone after my post assumes it doesn't.

Why? There are 2 conditions for indestructible: can't be destroyed or removed from play. It seems that it can work for any card that can be destroyed or that enters play.

The rulebook specifically says that they "come into play." Once in-play, don't they have to go somewhere, do they stay in-play forever?

EDIT: I wanted to add that if they are only played but don't come into play, One-Shots wouldn't trigger on "put into play" effects like Timeshift.

Ammo Drop says you get a card when a villain card is destroyed, not when it leaves play (so no card when Into the Stratosphere is layed). Unless I am wrong, if a target is played against Mad Bomber Baron Blade, it is removed from play, not destroyed. Therefore, it wouldn't trigger Ammo Drop. This seems to imply that something does not need to trigger Ammo Drop in order for it to leave play.

Whenever Mad Bomber Blade on his front side plays a villain target it gets moved underneath his card. His backside however does state that the villain target is destroyed when it enters play.

Ammo Drop won’t trigger on his front, right?

Correct, I was pointing out that he doesn't remove from play on either side when the villain target is played. Not that you're point is invalid. Infact I agree with it, as seen by my previous post.

I was talking more about one-shots in general and not specifically Baron Blade. I'm in the camp that moving a card to the trash isn't the same as removing it from play. If putting into play and playing are two different things, I think there's plenty of room to argue that moving a card to the trash isn't the same as destroying or removing it from play.

Playing a card isn't the same thing as putting it into play, but when you play a card it is put into play. Similarly, given that we're talking about the glossary definition of Indestructible here, I think it's reasonable to conclude that the phrase "removed from play" refers to any and all methods of taking a card that is in play and then, eh, removing it from play, be that destruction or being put back into somebody's hand or being moved into the trash.