La Capitan Advanced

I've been asked to make a thread about this, so here it is.

What exactly does Advanced La Capitan do on her flip side?  She has an ability that triggers whenever she would be dealt damage.  She removes a card and prevents that damage.  Her advanced text says that the first time she would be dealt damage in a round, redirect it. 

So, the first time she would be dealt damage in a round, do you prevent it or redirect it?  Our precedents for rulings like this say that when multiple triggers occur at once, they resolve in either the order of the heroes' choice, or the order written on the card.  Both of these indicate that the damage is prevented, which means La Capitan will only redirect at most one attack before she flips back. 

Percieved intent, however, would seem to indicate that she's supposed to be at least a little trickier than that.  I've asked this question a few times, and since people have answered all over the place, it seems to me it needs a ruling.

The way I read it, is that since the advanced mode specifically states "first time", I redirect the "first" attempted attack, and the rest of them get prevented by destroying the stuff under her.

I would think that the conditional phrase "first time" would force that trigger to take precedence over the general conditional trigger that destroys the cards under her.

Effectivly, this interpretation gives her an additional phantom card underneath her per round that will be the first one to be destroyed and deals back damage instead of just preventing it.

To me this seems to be the intent of her advanced side. But I have been wrong before so 

Edit: Consider the opposite case. If the advanced rules didnt kick in until the rest of the stuff under her is destroyed, you would have no reason to attack her until she flips, easily bypassing any negative effects of the advanced mode

It depends on how early in the round it happens. There's no guarantee that she'll flip if you don't bother damaging her for the rest of the round (well, unless you scout her deck).

I'm with Foote on this. Also considering that the advance text says each round instead of each turn, I think the intent to for the advance text to kick in first (hence the advance difficulty) before reverting to her normal self each round.

I also agree with Foote. Of course, that makes her EXTREMELY hard on paper. Not to mention that on her A side she destroys cards. Has anybody bested her on advanced yet? I don't even know how a team would know how to do it...

I helps with Chrono-Ranger going first. His 1 damage from one-shots triggers the advance text, then La Capitan goes back to normal mode.

It almost seems like you'd have to have a hero whose only job was putting out fodder for her constant ongoing / equipment destruction so the others could actually have a chance of getting set up.

Legacy: "Okay Bunker, you just sit in Recharge Mode for 5 rounds or so, and then just sit in Upgrade mode the rest of the game."

Bunker: "You guys suck… but okay." (Though theoretically, if Bunker got Omnicannon out early and was tucking cards underneath it, as long as they protected that one card, he could sit there giving them destruction fodder late game and have a supercharged Omnicannon ready and waiting for the killing blow. Just don't let that one get redirected :-p ("Okay guys, I'm ready!" BLAAAAAAAAAM "Where's Legacy?")

Posted to pending rules questions

Well, theoretically, Bunker can do that against any villain.  The difficulty is getting there.

Anyway, her advanced is far from unbeatable, regardless of interpretation.  The heroes don't have to have a stuff dummy; just take turns sacrificing something, and everybody can contribute.  Teamwork helps you prosper.  On  her flip side, just make the first attack against her in a round weak.  I find it's helpful to keep her on her flipped side for a round or two, to allow heroes to charge up.  Remember that she doesn't get cards underneath her while she's flipped, unless she draws Temporal Thief. 

And always, always kill the ship first.  (Or Mable.)

Arenson9,

I'm not convinced this needs to be in the pending rules questions. We don't want to flood the designers with questions.

On advanced, the first time La Capitan would be dealt damage each round instead redirect it to the heroes. Do not remove a card for that damage instance and it is not prevented that first time. For the rest of the round if she would take damage it is prevented and instead she discards a card. If she is out of cards under her then she takes damage like normal.

I agree that we don't want to flood the designers with questions.

If there is consensus that the question should NOT be asked, I'll take it down.

Here's my "Hero's guide to La Capitan Advanced." (Sorry flamethrower)

La Capitan is a pilfering plunderer. Her advanced mode makes her the second most consistent ongoing and equipment destroyer after Miss Information. Fear not, gadgeteers for she can be defeated.

Your first three turns should be wiping out her board. Her timeship has to die. It really slows her down (time pun). Don't bother hitting her since she'll be healing when she flips. Instead, wipe out her crew. A damaging innate helps since she is stealing your things. Ongoing destruction is essential (as is usually the case) since you cannot afford to let Maria Helena's Revenge stay in play.

Her side A's advanced ability almost guarantees that she will flip on her 4th turn or earlier. That's actually a good thing. The key to defeating her is her side B. You want her to flip early. Her side B does no innate damage and doesn't destroy your stuff. That's when you can take your time and setup. Someone with a damage reduction will help.

On side B you still don't need to hit her, yet. Keep the crew off the board and get setup for a throwdown because when she flips back you are going to unsleash hell. In order to get the cards out from under her you want to hit softly. Swing at her for one damage with Squall or Strike or Last Stand. Her advanced redirects to the highest who you'd hope to have a -1 damage taken in play as mentioned above. Then you can start getting your cards back, but remember not to take all of them until you are ready for some furious fisting. You'll only have 3 turns on side A to wipe her out. Then she flips back and starts healing again.

Good luck.

The first time I asked this question, it was largely ignored.  (This was on the playtest forums, under the thread about La Capitan.)  Since the language of the sentences is the same, and we were playtesting, I was wondering if we could agree on a better wording, if it indeed worked the way you think it does.  Nobody else seemed to care, and I never heard an official line on the issue, so it stayed the way it is.  You may say this is because I'm being unnecessarily specific or ignorant or something, but I have watched people interpret it both ways. 

While I honestly think it should work the way you want, I have been playing it the way it seems to work with the other mechanics of the game, which is the other way.  I asked this here because I would like to hear the official stance, but whatever you guys want, I guess.  I can wait for Gencon.

How do you think it works, Arenson?

Good guide, jhopki!

j1hopki1, maybe you should start a new thread with your advance guide so others can find it easily.

Flamethrower,

Your guide compliment meant a lot since I really like your guides.

I didn't realize that other people played La Capitan wrong, but the confusion makes sense now. I think the wording it should have been is:

Whenever, La Capitan takes damage return 1 card under her to the appropriate trash. If you do, she regains that much health.

I know it's a little too late. I really wish I was a playtester. This wording makes her work almost the same. Now the first time she would take damage the redirect happens first because she didn't actually take damage so the discard and heal wouldn't happen. In corner cases this wording does maker her work different. For example, Hypersonic Assault and Hoist Chain would trigger since damage was done even though it immediately healed. However, it does fix the wording problem since "would take" happens before "takes damage."

Arenson,

Leave the question since it seems that a consensus has not been reached.

I'm feeling too impatient to review this thread and try to guess why I've been asked my opinion or to keep in mind how other people have opined, so with unvarnished thinking and no filters: I think that the intention of Advanced on the flip side was probably that the first time in a round, the attack would be redirected, regardless of how many cards La Capitan has, but that a literal reading of La Capitan's card would have the return-a-card trigger go off before the redirect trigger.

My apologies if I've missed something about why I was being asked and/or have simply repeated what others have said.

From the KantCon rulings (https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/answers-to-debated-questions-3871)

>

10. Does Advanced La Capitan redirect damage first or does she prevent damage until she can no longer do so, then redirect?

You would continue to go by the order of the card, so she would prevent damage as long as she could and then redirect damage when she could no longer prevent it.

Her stock just took a major crash...

Yeah, you can disregard my guide. The new ruling means that her advanced rule will only apply once when she's on side B so just fight her like you would on normal. She's not really any harder on advanced side B. You'll just take like one or two more damage than you would have before. I am not particularly happy with the ruling, but I don't have the money to be a playtester so my opinion should count very little.

This would create two issues:

1. What if hp recovery was reduced or increased.This could be fixed by saying...."If you do, restore her to x hp, where x is her current health + the amount of damage taken
2. What would happen if La capitain would be dealt more damage than her current hp. This could be fixed by adding "If there are cards under this card, la capitain is indestructible"

I understand that there are cases where they would not be the same. I was merely trying to suggest how to make the rules clear if the designers wanted to make it clear that her advanced redirect rule applied before her normal prevent rule.

However, it's a moot point because the designers have now given official rulings that actually her normal prevent rule does happen before her advanced redirect rule is triggered. I am not happy about the ruling because it means that her advanced rule only applies once after she flips. I think that does not add much interest or strategy to her side B.

All it takes is an Errata for Advance La Capitan to reverse the situation again. 

Not to say it is going to happen :)

Probably way late to the party, but it doesn't seem entirely reasonable to say that the Advanced text has to happen last since it's last on the card, given that advance text is always last on the card.

There are a number of ways to word it to make it happen the other way, starting with an explicit exception.

It has been ruled that it goes in card order: #10 https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/answers-to-debated-questions-3871