Where are all the "How To Fix Chrono-Ranger" topics?

Chrono-ranger does very little damage with his one-at-a-time damage abilities, only really does more when he's buffed by a team mate or if he manages to get a bounty on a single target at a time, and doesn't do a whole lot else besides the pew pew.  I'm curious to hear if the people who think that Mr. Fixer is so woefully underpowered that he desperately needs fixing have the same opinion of Chrono-ranger.  Is it just that he's so new that we haven't seen a wave of "How To Fix Chrono-Ranger" topics yet?

Masadah alone makes him way more impressive than Fixer.

Better hope you draw that one card then, eh? ;)

Masadah only really works if you have more than one bounty out, and there's damage reduction in play.  Any time there's no DR, Compounded Bow or Danny-Boy will be better bets.  And, even then, Danny Boy only works if you have multiple bounties out.  And, what Fixer loses to CR in straight up overall damage, Fixer gains in control and utility–Salvage Yard and Grease Gun are game savers, to which Temporal Grenade is a poor sister.

Mind you, I don't think either CR or Fixer are weak.  Fixer's a perfect "problem solver" and CR does his job of single-target nuking with aplomb.  That said, I have had a game already with CR where I couldn't get a Bounty out to save my life–I had a lot of "Pull a Bounty out of your Trash" cards, but none actually in my trash.  He was still able to contribute, but was absolutely the weak link in that perfect storm of a poor game for him.

The bounties are probably part of it; they're all really good, and he has several ways to search his deck or trash for them. His weapons are great and he can have all of them in play at once, his one-damage riders make up for the low base power, Jim's Hat is a great utility and Hunter and Hunted is just insane. In addition, the pro-Fixer brigade often claim that the dislike of Fixer is because he feels weak. Chrono-Ranger feels awesome.

now I don’t consider fixer weak by any sense of the word, but when cr gets his hat out he can be reliably doing 4 sources of damage a turn. (card card compound bow) With even one bounty out that’s a ton of damage, with the right ones its even more, and with the right teammates… jeezus goodly.

no DR and he can psudo aoe well, with DR he can be stopped until he gets the right +dmg bounty then he’s cutting through again.

Well, look at their overall concepts:

Fixer is a washed up martial artist who runs an auto repair shop.

Chrono Ranger is a time-traveling cowboy with a cybernetic arm.

It's all a matter of perspective…

I do see the similarities, but Chrono Ranger clearly outpaces Fixer.

My main problem with Fixer is once he has a style and a tool in play he has 18 cards in his deck (7 styles, 9 tools, and 2 meditations) that cannot be played without removing a card from play. He has nothing in his deck that uses these extra cards in hand. In response to the complaint that nearly half his deck loses value after turn 2, the only argument that Fixer lovers put forth is that he is a zen character.

CR doesn't limit how many bounties or equipment can be in play.

Fixer has some neat cards. CR has some neat cards. Fixer has a neat theme. CR has a neat theme. Fixer limits cards in play. CR doesn't.

Chrono Ranger wins.

CR can search for Equipment. Fixer cannot.

Chrono Ranger wins.

i would agree, but people tend to dislike Expat aswell, and her theme is awesome.

My theory is that Chrono has two search, you heard it right folks, TWO SEARCH CARDS!!! He also has a draw card, though it relies on other heroes to make it effective, but who really cares about that because the only time a hero needs help to be even better is a bad thing is when it comes to Rook City Heroes. Such is the case with Legacy, he isn't so awesome by himself and relies on other people, but who cares about that? Right? Right? Anyways back onto Chrono, he does have a bounty that allows himself to draw a card if that target leaves play, unless he takes out the target on his own he's relying on others again…

They need a deck where someone has 20 Search Cards, 10 Draw Cards, the rest cards that do stuff. People would eat that hero up…

I think it's a matter of agency.  

With Chrono Ranger, as with many other of the more fiddly heroes, you always feel like there's something that you're working towards.  You're either pulling bounties from your deck (or trash), or you're relic fishing as Nightmist or you're pairing up songs with instruments as AA .  There's a finite goal set before you, and you work towards that goal.

Someone made the analogy of Fixer being the "janitor" of the F5, in that he ends up doing the thankless jobs that no one else wants to do or can do, and I think that's fitting.  He doesn't take many cards to be effective, he can discard his hand at any point and still function admirably, and he can shift between tanking, crowd control, and support with a single card's swap.  

No hero can do everything, nor are they supposed to.  But where other Heroes have a finite "these are the cards you want out" build, he flows with the situation and does the thing tha needs to be done, while everyone else is pursuing their own goals.

The complaints that are voiced about Fixer these days are that he has limited card draw, no way to search for his Tools, and no guarantee that he will have the Tool he needs for the job.

Chrono has "Just Doin' My Job", Displaced Armory, Jim's Hat, Bounty Board, Ranger's Mark, Sudden Contract, and Eye on the Prize.  He also can deal multiple instances of low damage that can be buffed by Bounties and Hunter and Hunted, while Fixer can typically only deal damage twice in one turn (through a Charge and Strike, modified by whatever Tools and Styles he has in play).

I don't quite understand the comparison you're making.

As to the comparison between CR and Fixer, I'll go to my usual answer: They are both interesting heroes that do completely different things and play in completely different ways. I don't compare them because I play them for different reasons. (And thoroughly enjoy them both!)

However, I did want to respond to something j1hopki1 mentioned (emphasis is mine).

I'm not going to say you're wrong, j1hopki1 (as it's your opinion and you're welcome to have it! ), but there are a variety of reasons I've heard brought up. The type of character ("zen") is definitely one of them, as is the ability to change his approach (e.g., tool and/or style) based on the situation as the game evolves (which contradicts j1hopki1's assertion that half his deck loses value after turn 2, but I think that's just a difference of opinion/experiences with Fixer), but I think the fundamental reason is that the hero was designed specifically to play in this way - it was a game-design decision. (I.e, if you're going to play Fixer, don't expect Tachyon.  )

In my opinion, one of the best things about SotM is there are so many different kinds of heroes that we will always have a hero to play, no matter what we're looking for. Fixer fits a specific slot in that collection - and he fits it well.

Chrono does obscene amounts of damage - definitely more than Fixer, in most situations - but damage reduction can cause him serious heartache. If I'm going up against a villain with damage reduction, I'm more likely to pick Fixer than CR, but there are other factors (like my mood) that will finalize the decision of which hero I choose.

just try CR against Advanced Voss. And /cry/

Its stupid easy to get a plethora of bounties, Masadah, Danny Boy, and Compound bow out.

What does this mean?

High single target damange, solid AoE damage, and a great double tap. He can alternate between the few Because he has them all out. He doesn't need to shift forms, he can just switch powers.

I readily and willingly  concede Fixer's lack of overall damage compared to CR.  I said as much up-thread.   Outside of a situation where Fixer can Jack Handle 10 or so targets at once, CR is always going to out-damage Fixer.   But CR is fragile, with not a single card that contributes to his defense, and only Temporal Grenade providing any bit of control.

Compare that to Pipe Wrench, Riveting Crane style, Grease Gun and more in Fixer's arsenal.  Fixer has CR dead to rights in both personal and group defense and control elements.

I also question the people who are complaining about Fixer's lack of card draw.  Toolbox effectively can let you draw 3 cards every turn for the remainder of the game, while still using powers.  If you don't have at least some worthwhile play option after two turns of Toolbox, you're probably overthinking the situation.

How is it overthinking the situation if you draw multiple Meditations and a second Grease Monkey Fist when you still haven't drawn a Tool the entire game?

And yes, Fixer has much better Tools for those categories.  When he can actually get them when he needs them.

Again, I think the difference is that with Chrono Ranger, you at least have the chance of taking control of your own deck with its multiple avenues of search and draw.  With Fixer, you hope for the right Tool with Toolbox and hope for the best.  Hell, you hope you even draw a Tool in the first place.  The issue voiced with Fixer seems to be a lack of reliability that none of the other characters outright dependent on Ongoing/Equipment cards have.

I've played multiple games with Chrono Ranger, and in most of those games I was pretty set up by Round 2 or 3. With Fixer, I have to get a perfect hand to be perfectly set up by that time. Like other people have mentioned, Chrono has a lot of ways to search for equipment cards and bounty cards. He also has a lot of cards that allow him to draw and play other cards. It's very easy to see why his innate power is one damage. I have played two games with him where he was easily doing 14 damage to the villain every round.

Theres also the brilliant tactic of spamming the "draw 3 cards" bounty to have a TON of cards.

I think the big thing is that it's easier to have an awesome game with Chrono than it is with Fixer. I like Fixer, and I understand why his supporters love him, but from what I've observed the people who love Fixer, love him because they played at least one game where they had the right tool and style and were able to just unload and just have complete control for the entire game. It's hard to love a hero you don't have an awesome experience with, and I think when it comes to Chrono Ranger, the amount of cards he has to search for and retrieve important bounties and equipment from the trash, and the cards that allow him to draw extra cards just make it more likely for players to have that awesome I'm a hero game.

Let's look at it this way:  given a worst case scenario, and you open the game with Fixer with no desirable options but a Toolbox, you can draw 3 cards per turn and still deal 1 unmodified damage.  

By the end of turn 2, you're holding 10 of 40 cards–precisely 1/4 of your deck.  In two turns.  With no draw assistance from anyone.

At that point, you should have options galore.  So, for the sake of argument, lets say you have a ton of mooks on the table and were hoping for a Jack Handle.  Grease Gun neutralizes them for a turn, buying you time.  Dual Crowbars is slightly more limited, but deals more damage.  

Lets assume that the draw is Even worse–no toolbox.  Why not double draw?  Or heck, go without a tool?  Redirect damage with Riveting Crane, punch things with Grease Monkey Fist, play Harmony to prep for later.  The options are there.  Even when the specific tool desired isn't available, Fixer rolls  with the punches.  

It's just a matter of divorcing oneself away from the rote tactic of "First I pull out X artifact, then I use Y spell, then I add Z one-shot…"  That's a desirable routine that's easy to like and easy to fall into.  Nightmist, CR, Absolute Zero are all based on those precepts.  Fixer just doesn't work that way, dude…

[Edit–As has been corrected below, it's Mantis, not Crane-style.  My bad.  The point remains.]

 just one thing Warlock, you are thinking of Driving Mantis not Riveting Crane. The Riveting Crane is the one where Fixer hits a target and all damage dealt to that target is irreducible.

Toolbox is great for getting extra cards, but you're still entirely relying on luck to get the cards you need. Just because you have options, doesn't mean they're particularly good for the current situation you're in. CR has flexibility that Fixer doesn't because he can search for specific cards that are useful to the situation that you're in.

CR can also change his approach based on the situation by just playing the second equipment/bounty and using it. The old one doesn't go away. Then if he needs to use the old one again he can because it is still in play. When I say half Fixer's deck loses value after turn 2 I mean playing that new style or tool means he loses the old one. That is very inefficient. If you have the tool and style you want then you can't continue to setup for later. Even when AZ has both modules and Fixed Apetures and Thermal Shockwave in play he has plenty of options to continue to build his arsenal. Fixer only has Harmony.

On another note, my fellow Fixer haters are not complaining about his card drawing. He has good card draw. You can even skip your turn if you want to draw. It's his lack of equipment search that needs to be fixed. It doesn't even need to do 1 projectile damage when you play it.

Chrono Ranger wins.

And this is why people aren't posting up "We need to fix Chrono Ranger" topics.  He can draw/search for the card he needs for the situations he's equipped to deal with.

And this makes all of the "Fixer is the guy with the right tool for the right job" arguments even more disappointing.  I understand Fixer doesn't work that way.  What I don't understand is why he doesn't work so that he has the right tool for the right job, because every argument for Fixer that I've seen involves someone having the Tool or Style necessary to deal with a problem.

If we have established that Fixer just deals with what he has, and doesn't, in fact, consistently have the right tool for the right job, then how does one play Fixer?  Because my group plays Fixer with what he has and we often find him to be disappointing.  Not because he doesn't deal a lot of damage, not because he doesn't dominate the field every game, but because we have plenty of situations where he just doesn't do what everyone says he does.  We don't find Riveting Crane when we need to break through a villain's DR, and we don't find Jack Handle or Dual Crowbars when we need to deal damage to multiple targets, or Pipe Wrench when we need DR.

So, if the position is "just draw until you have what you need through repeatedly spamming Tool Box or not doing anything for the extra card draw," I'm quite confused.  I don't think there is any other character in the game (Expatriette aside) that has such a painful time getting the cards they need when they need them.  Your explanation seems more like an excuse rather than a strategy.

Chrono ranger strikes me as a character who is way more better on normal than on advanced...there are so many villains with DR, that I've seen CR neutered consistently

Depending on who you're fighting, the Masadah could come in really handy against DR.

That's probably because I'm trying to say that there's not a definitive Fixer strategy.  

When I sit down to play, say, Nightmist, my priorities almost always tend to be Amulet of the Elder Gods, either Master of Magic or Starshine Amulet (or both), followed by Astral Projection, then Mistbound.  If this pattern is interrupted in some manner, I end up using Call Forth or Enlightenment to get back on track.  Regardless of targets, I always end up playing Heedless Lash before Oblivion before Scouring Mists.  I dare say that the majority–perhaps even the vast majority–of people play her in relatively the same way, as she needs her basic redirection ability, some way to get back hit points, and then focuses primarily on deck control, with the occasional damaging spell thrown in the mix.

With Chrono Ranger–to hopefully get somewhat back on topic–I find that my first priorities are almost unequivocally Jim's Hat, Ultimate Target (on main villain), Dead or Alive (again, on main), Compounded Bow, any other +1 damage Bounty, and then other equipment.  Danny-Boy comes before Masadah, and Eyes on the Prize always gets played immediately.  He needs to be able to throw down cards quickly to increase his bounty-based variables, then capitalize on his sheer volume of damage instances.  When this is interrupted, what's his best play?  A card draw card, which can potentially net him 5 cards in a turn, at the cost of other peoples' options.

With Fixer, you're right in the sense that he doesn't have a way to look for a given card.  But, if you're that desperate for a single type of card–say, you're facing Voss and you need a Jack Handle for crowd control, the chances are good that you're going to have one, if not immediately, then pretty darn soon.  I think you're underrating the ability to potentially pull a full quarter of your deck within two turns, while still contributing to the combat, with no drawbacks, and continue to do so at will.  

Not every character needs or should have a "Search through your deck and find X card" abilities, because that homogenizes the game.  Sentinels wouldn't have the replay value it does, if every character played in this manner.   Legacy, for one,  has no deck-searching ability whatsoever–often, playing him comes down to "What will help the group the most, out of the cards that I have?"  To me, that's the same philosophy that Fixer runs on.  It does, however, mean that someone who plays Fixer has to be more flexible and less tied to a rote path of "this is how this Hero works, and these are the cards I need, in this order."  

I get that you don't like Fixer.  I get that you aren't happy with his inability to have the precise right card at the right situation.  We've had that discussion on other threads and we've both well and truly derailed this one.  But that still doesn't mean that he's weak by any stretch.  "Rolling with the punches" (to use the phrase I used earlier) isn't the same as "Having the right tool for the right job".  Rather, it means that he's going to be able to contribute meaningfully, even when everyone else is flailing around and rebuilding their precious tower-of-cards assembly from scratch.

It's true that not every hero needs to have a search card, but not every hero relies on having a certain type of card either. The best search card in the game is Impromptu Invention, but Wraith's deck has enough equipment cards to warrant a search card for them. Ra can search for the staff I think primarily because it is an important part of his backstory. Even though Bunker can't search for equipment cards, he has multiple ways to draw extra cards and can take an equipment card directly from the trash and put it into play. Legacy doesn't really need a search card becaue even though he has certain cards in his deck that you really hope to get, he doesn't rely entirely on a certain type of card to contribute meaningfully. He has good one-shots which work well without having any of his other ongoing cards in play. Haka doesn't have any search cards in his deck, but he has multiple ways to draw cards, and a lot of cards that are really good in multiple situations. Even his useless for the situation cards can be good to have since you won't hesitate to discard them for something like Haka of Battle.

It's true that Fixer can do okay with only a style or a tool, but in order to feel like you're really playing a hero, you need to mix styles and tools. I had a game against Voss once where I only drew two copies of the same tool. Fortunately, that tool was Duel Crowbars and it worked out really well, partly because I also drew a Harmony and Meditation in my opening hand, but I've had several games where I don't see more than two tools in my hand, no Harmony, and Riveting Crane when the villain has no DR, or I can't break through the DR anyway. I don't think allowing Fixer a way to search for tools would really homogenize the game since the combination of his tools and styles is really what makes him a unique and fun experience to play

Personally, and maybe this is how I play, i've seen too many devastating auroras and apocalypses that I can't get rid of to really like the "first I play this then I play this then I play this" strategy. Sure, it's nice to have some set plan, but there's nothing worse than a card that makes heroes destroy a certain number of ongoing/equipment and have all the players play a game of "Not it." I want to be able to say "Yes, I'll be it." Chrono-ranger suffers a bit in this regard because he does need his equipment and bounties to be really successful, but it's easier to bounce back for him. And while everyone else is using their play phase to rebuild, he can be rebuilding and pinging away at something. You can't win a game that way, but you also can't win many games if you go entire rounds without damaging something.

Beautifully stated, PlatinumWarlock!

I've never really looked at the heroes as one being better than another. I just play the hero that matches my mood and current style preference.

However, I get that some people want to be able to play all the heroes and have all the heroes match their style preferences. I just wish we could all understand none of us are wrong - we just have different opinions on these heroes. (I, for example, don't understand why people want to make changes to Fixer, but I need to just accept that they do and not worry about it. )

But to focus back on Spiff's original question, I think the general concensus is because CR just generally rocks. He can search for the right equipment for the job at hand, he can search for the best bounty for the situation (even if the "best" bounty might be debateable), and he can seriously dish out the damage very quickly and efficiently - in most situations. No "fixing" needed.

The neat twist that Mr. Fixer has is that tools are returned to his hand when replaced by a new tool, not discarded.  So, once he has a few tools he can very quickly and effortlessly change modes.  This is a really cool twist for a Limited card, greatly increases the value of his tools, and very nicely evokes an image of a big red tool box in the trunk of his black '71 GT.  (I don't recall that his fighting stances work the same way (I'm pretty sure they get discarded), but he does have deck search cards that allow him to specifically search for them.)

I'm still trying to figure out if CR's "capture alive" bounty card is generally usefull.  I see several very specific examples of it's use (delaying Baron Blade's "15 cards in the trash" loose condition, for example), but I'm not convinced it's something I'd want to use all that often.

No Executions is useful for:

Removing cards from the trash you never want to see again: Citizen Truth being the absolute prime example.

It's other major ability is to prevent "On destruction effects." Play it on the explosive wagon and a lot of fear goes out of fightign the Dreamer in Silver Gulch.

Addiing +1 to the Masadah, Hunter and Hunted or Danny-Boy.

Preventing the Operative or Matriarch from punching you when you kill their minions.

Preventing Apostate's Relic Spirics or Runes of Malediction from bringing relics/demons back from the trash after ytou've spent all that time killing them.

Stopping the Illusory Demon or the Treacherous Ape in the Dreamer's deck from destroying your stuff.

And if all else fails, it's a great sacrifice ongoing card if you can't find antoher use for it.

Say, don't I know you from somewhere?

I think I'll start another topic about how Scholar doesn't have enough draw cards to power all of his elemental forms at once so he obviously needs to be "fixed" too. ;)

Dude, Spiff, you owe me a new computer. All this tea I just sprayed all over the poor thing while laughing has completely destroyed it…

Maaaaaaybe.

Haha! I'll admit, The Scholar is an odd duck. One the one hand, he doesn't have as much support potential as Legacy or Argent Adept, but he also doesn't have a sustainable engine a la Absolute Zero. Sure, he can draw some cards, and has a mere-like thing to help him contribute, but like Mr. Fixer and Expatriette, he can always use cards.

Of course, that's why I play most games with Team Leader Tachyon, to all but eliminate any card-related woes. Try it! I had one game where Mr. Fixer had half his deck in his hand once (of course that was against Miss Information, and he had to discard it eventually, but hey!)

As to Chrono Ranger, I do think he's not all that in a bag of chips: he's still rather suceptable to damage reduction, because even if The Masadah is out, you need bouties to make it go; if it's the second turn and you find yourself stuck with shaky arms or something, then that's no good. He's also suprisingly squishy, becuase of Hunter and Hunted, which can make him go down quickly without support. Of course, he's also rather good, too. 

I don't know, I usually play solo, but I find that team support always makes heroes better. And I'm glad we're having these conversations, becuase that means we truly love the game, and want it to succeed in the long run. That's cool. 

Although I wonder why Sentinels doesn't have a mulligan mechanic. I feel that would address most of the problems we have with these heroes…

No execution is a life-saver for things that get pulled out of the trash. Less for Matriarch's Hunnn'n and Munnnn (those are gross misspellings I realize) since she runs through her deck. It's been a while since I've played Apostate, but I think.... I think it would keep the sword out. (I think)

Best. House rule. Ever.

Maybe the issue with Fixer is that you don't build to something throughout the game?

Haka and Tachyon build to one-off big hits. Nightmist builds to having a lot of cards to power her effects. Bunker runs through the Modes. Argent Adept to having a couple of instruments and a few Melody/Performance/whatever options. Legacy builds to Lead from the Front/Next Evolution, enivronment protection, and Legacy Ring + second power. Wraith builds to her equipment explosion. Heck, even Ex-Pat builds to Unload. And so on.

Chrono-Ranger builds to putting out bounties and a lot of equipment to take advantage of them.

Along the way, they do stuff.

With Fixer, it seems like he doesn't build constantly throughout the game. He gets Toolbox (hopefully!), he gets that perfect Style/Tool combo. Until then, he can plink away with Strike, maybe using a secondary useful Tool/Style. But once he gets where he's going, he's there and he does the same thing over and over. The "build" seems too short (assuming he can get to the build via Toolbox), there's not much along the way, and the final result is a bit repetitive.

I keed!  But seriously, this comparison with Chrono-Ranger has helped me understand exactly what people's beef with Mr. Fixer is.  To me, they seemed equally underpowered.  But I understand better now the argument about feeling like you can get to CR's goodies with more ease than Fixer's goodies.  We've had a breakthrough here, people.

Along the same lines, we recently used it to great effect on La Paradoja Magnifica.

This thread confuses me.  First off, Spiff - you say that Chrono-Ranger and Fixer are the same level of underpowered.  To get to the bottom of this for people who don't hang around here as much as some of us, are you saying that neither are underpowered?  You are a staunch supporter of Fixer.  Are you trolling us?  :)

I think Chrono-Ranger has a lot of powerful options, and it's very nice that he's allowed to search for them.  He's an all-out offensive character, with few concessions to defense.  Some here have said his utility is poor, but I don't see it.  No Executions is great, for the reasons listed above.  By Any Means is my go-to Bounty, even more than Ultimate Target, since it tends to result in more damage, group depending.  Temporal Grenade is perhaps a little slow, but powerful and searchable.  (Among the rest, only Unity is capable of searching directly for her Ongoing/Environment destruction, and she has to jump through more hoops.)  This makes Displaced Armory a utility king, among all the other must-haves it can find, like Jim's Hat.  Neuro-Toxin Dart Thrower fills another niche.  If you think his base power is useless, well, he has others.  DR is a problem, but he can get around it.  Put out the bounties, especially the ones that themselves provide damage boosts, kill the things that provide DR, and play Hunter and Hunted.  The Masadah doesn't even have to figure into it.  He might die, but it will be glorious.  I have no issues with this character.

Finally, PlatinumWarlock - about your order of operations for Nightmist.  I think you're thinking about this in the wrong way.  Every character has to, can, and does roll with the punches.  Next time, try limiting yourself to two of her things, whichever two you have.  Then play spells and focus on doing what needs doing.

Agreed.  I think early complaints about Fixer were due to his low damage, but they later shifted to the more prominent frustration of not getting what you want.  I know that I personally get quite frustrated when people try to explain to me how great Fixer is against a particular villain with a Style/Tool/Harmony combination.  Yes, I get how great Alternating Tiger Claw and Jack Handle is against Voss and a couple of Gene Bound Guards.  It's completely awesome.  I wish I had a more reliable way of getting to it, because my group rarely seems to have the effect Fixer can bring to the table actually be brought to the table.  Chrono definitely has his shortcomings, as most heroes do.  But he can readily access his guns and effectively modify his one damage pings across all of his one-shots and his innate.  If anything, people who love or hate aspects of Mister Fixer tend to agree on him most of the time.  His modifications are excellent, assuming you actually draw them.  Until then, you work with what you have.

And I definitely get where you're coming from, Platinum.  I really do.  And I do like Mister Fixer.  He's a great character with interesting mechanics and a lot of his cards provide a new approach to the game.  That doesn't mean I have to appreciate his lack of set-up or think of it as a fun design.  I'll play games with Mister Fixer, and I even have a good time with him.  We had a three man game with Fixer yesterday and beat Baron Blade by the skin of our teeth.  We all enjoyed the game, but even with two Toolbox fueled draws, we didn't draw a Style until the 9th turn.  That was a bummer.  Just like it's a bummer when Bunker doesn't get a Flak Cannon or Expatriette doesn't get a Shotgun.  Fixer always had something he could play (Salvage Yard is fantastic, and helped Wraith recover the four cards she blew up due to a Devious Disruption), but part of the appeal of his deck IS playing his Tools and Styles, and part of the appeal of this game as a whole is playing cards that boost your character (especially the Equipment-heavy ones).  There are games where Chrono Ranger (and even an Equipment-hunting machine like The Wraith) have their options completely squashed by the Villain(s) or Environment.  But that potential to recover with their respective search cards make it less horrible.  With Fixer, it just stings a little more.  My frustrations are out of a love for the character and a want for his unique design to be experienced.  I'm not trying to get people to hate the guy, or never play him again.

The mechanics of Chrono-Ranger's deck were heavily debated in the playtesting forum.  Considering how much larger the playtesting community is from Rook City to Shattered Timelines, there was a lot more playtesting put into the ST heroes than the IR heroes and even more than the RC heroes.  Across the board, most people felt that the "theme" of Chrono Ranger was rarely compromised, even by DR.  There were games where he was less effective, but he generally could access his bounties, pull out his equipment, and contribute to the team by buffing damage against a target, destroying Ongoing/Environment cards, providing Irreducible damage, filling up trash (through "Just Doin' My Job", helping Tachyon with her Bursts, Nightmist for her MFR, or even combo-ing with Fixer's Salvage Yard to get Equipment cards discarded back), and effectively obtaining nearly any of it quite quickly and effectively.  You really "feel" like you're firing a few warning shots, then pulling a future-tech beam rifle out of Z-space and blasting the big bad you've been sent to "take care of."  Fixer can do a lot of these things too, but it's that potential to get what you need when you need it that makes people less frustrated about Chrono Ranger, in my opinion.  I get a much more consistent feel of being "heroic" with Chrono than I do with Fixer, and I wonder if others feel that way.  If they do, my guess is his ability to effectively get what he needs in the moment is the reason behind that.

CR basically a Glass Cannon. Like a Void Ray he requires charge up, but once he charges up he can deal a lot of damage.

Fixer on the other hand is like a Widow Mine where if you are able to set him up properly he can be really effective.

A widow mine that requires you to salvage compents from enemies/the map and what you need may not be available.

Thats silly since he has equipment search.  One major reason for needing to "fix" Expat and Fixer is that they can't search worth a crap.

Secondly Chrono's total output capability is crazy awesome even without anyone else buffing him.  Play him again any villain that doesn't have tons of minions and he will be absolutely dominating.  Against minions, he may or may not be as awesome, but theres alway boss to wail on (except for dreamer).

Yeah, thats pretty much my thoughts.  DR can really hurt CR but it can be worked around with effort.  He feels really fun to play with so many different attacks each turn.  I find he's often card, card bow, bow plus a bow, bow out of turn dut to hit "Ultimate Target" bounty.  Now you are up to six sources of damage.

Yup cause consistency and being able to do what you want instead of just getting stuck with no good options makes for awesome fun.

I don't know about that, Wraith imediately comes to mind as someone that can or is darn close.

Then again I think Fixer's great, as a non-damage character. I don't even mind his card draw capability.

Well, Fixer does have a "these are the card you want out" feel, it's just that he has more options.

Maybe the problem is that they all those options to the same place: hit opponents (in groups or singularly). Fixer isn't much of a team player. Junkyard is somewhat limited usefulness, and… that's it. he doesn't help against Ongongs or Environments. He's more the Batman-ish "dark loner" than Wraith, who has Grappling Hook and Mega-Computer (although the latter can be a mixed blessing). Ex-Patriette has the RPG Launcher.

IMO, Fixer just doesn't interact much with his teammates, except when they're helping him.

I would like to add that although skipping your turn to draw and extra card is a valid play choice and is no big deal once or twice a game.  Starting a game by skipping your first three turns is horribly unfun.  Starting to set up three turns behind everyone else isn't to great either.  Thats why a power like Redeemer Fanatic is really good, its gets you that extra card but you can still play a card each turn to at least feel like you are doing something.

Mr. Fixer can (admittedly inconsistently) clear damage reduction with Riveting Crane, focus fire with Driving Mantis, and protect his team with Grease Gun and Hoist Chain. Oh, and he can heal Absolute Zero with Grease Monkey Fist. Salvage Yard is awesome for the likes of Bunker, Haka and Nightmist - anyone who uses cards as a resource and has equipment in their deck.

I'm assuming you're being facetious since he can easily maintain 3-4 forms for a whole game.

Are you trolling us?  :)

Yeah, I was a little.  But people rose to the challenge with polite, well-formed arguments about how CR differs from Fixer, and it helped me understand their problems with Fixer better, so I'm glad I did it.  Plus, at the time, I'd only played CR a couple of times and had had a hard time doing more than onsey-twosey damage with him, so the comparison seemed more apt.  Now that I've gotten more plays with CR under my belt, with lots of gun-slinging and bounty-posting, I'm even less serious about the comparison than I was.

For the record, I am a staunch supporter of Fixer.  I'll put that in context though -- in every game my family and I play, my wife plays two heroes, my daughter plays two heroes, and I play one hero plus manage the villain and environment.  So when I play Fixer, I'm not sitting around fuming about the cards I don't have, because I've got plenty of other stuff to do throughout the game.  I can easily see how, if Fixer were the only thing you had to pay attention to, you'd be bummed about not being able to get ahold of the card you wish you had, and maybe not even being able to play anything at all if you've already got a pretty good stance and tool in play.  So, I get it.

Also for the record, I play with my Stance Shifting Master alt Mr. Fixer variant (available on my site), and it makes him way more fun to play.

Where is this? I can't find it on your site.

Here's something I remembered reading this.  I haven't played a lot of deck building games in my life but for a while I really enjoyed the Vs. game.  One reason that I liked it other than other games of that type was the amount of consistency you could get in your decks.  I found that if a deck didn't work as intended (not necesarily win but do what it was designed to do) 90% of the time I would start looking for ways to sqeeze in more card draw or search.  It was worth it to loose some potential to make sure it didn't ever flop (or at least very rarely).  It sounds like this is the idea with Fixer and Expat.  People have just had them "not work as intended" too many times and thats not fun so they want to squeezein more search and draw so that they don't flop so much.  I know if this were a deck building game where the current decks were starter decks, thats the thing I would be looking to add to them.

Where is this? I can't find it on your site.

It's alongside the others in the Oversized Hero HP Trackers download.  But maybe that's not a good place for it if people don't know to look, so I'll pull it out and give it its own entry on the page.

I know Chrono can really be hurt by DR so this seems like it could clear give him trouble but I'm getting more and more confident about CR in this matchup. 

First of all it should only take a few turns to flip Voss and get rid of the DR.  Chrono will own Voss on his flipped side.

The main reason I feel this way though is in a recent game against Gloomy (I know I know Gloomy is the easiest boss ever but ) we hit two profane zealots early which reduce damage to villain targets by one.  When one was out CR played a search for the +1 bounty and put it on him and did one damage from the search and then used Masadah for 2 more damage.  The +1 damage helped the next hero finish the guy off.  When the next one came out CR played the one-shot that puts a bounty from trash into play and it was essentially a repeat so he was the MVP even in dealing with DR. 

Watching the way he played that game I'm pretty sure even if Voss stayed on his DR side Chrono could put out enough bounty's to let Masadah be effective.  Yes it would make him much less effective, but if you are not giving the hero's any bonus damage a Masadah with 3 bounties would be at least as effective as Expat's shotgun and hair trigger does zero damage in that situation.  Now maybe it wouldn't be as good as the Assault rifle, but again with no bonus damage thats only 1 damage to 3 targets where as Chrono can help by possibly giving others bonus damage or getting a free kill via "The Whole Gang".

EDIT: Plus Danny-Boy with three bounties is just as good and he still gives the benefits previously stated.

Also, I would like to point out that Chrono has a Bounty that heals him for 1 HP at the start of a turn.  While he doesn't have DR, he DOES have a way of regaining HP on his own (which, as mentioned by Ameena on Flamethrower's Argent Adept strategy guide, is great against villains that can deal irreducible damage).  Considering his nemesis is Plague Rat, I'm somewhat curious if that was intentional.  Regardless, great job >G!

Oh yeah, have you tried him againsst PR?  With his ultimate target bounty out he is a beast attacking on PR's turn as well as his own.  Since PR has no DR the bow lets you hit for 3 (or more with nemesis, bounty and any other bonuses) twice on PR's turn.  Then on Chrono's turn he can easily hit four times for 3 (or more).  Getting all those 3s to be 4s isn't too hard and now you are talking 6 total shots of 4 for 24 every turn.  Not just on one big turn, but every single turn.  And yeah the life regain helps give him more survivabiliy since he's taking 1 irreducible damage every turn.

The bow wouldn't hit for three points - it can't ever do that. It deals one (projectile I think) and then another one (of any type you want). With the Nemesis bonus that's two and two, making four. It can't ever deal an odd number of damage because it deals two hits. Similarly, Chrono Ranger wouldn't ever take one irreducible damage per turn from Rat - the Nemesis bonus would mean he'd take two (assuming Rat wasn't buffed by anything else such as his Locus).

On a slightly different note, we fought Apostate earlier, which I'd been looking forward to because I'd been wanting to try Chrono Ranger against him. We unfortunately rolled Rook City as the environment but at least that means it's out of the way for the weekend (we don't repeat villains or environments unless we've been through all of them that weekend already). "The Whole Gang" versus various relics worked really well - used it to get rid of both the Effigy and the Runes at the same time. Also used "No Executions" to get rid of Condemnation to the bottom of the deck at one point, which was nice as the Tome later came out and therefore totally failed to bring Condemnation out of the trash when we destroyed it. The sword did come back later, though, via a Profane Summons but we still managed to smash it. Ended up dealing about eight damage per hit to Apostate by the end - Masadah buffed by the fact that there were three bounties out, two of which were the Ultimate Target and By Any Means, plus Legacy was in the game and had made use of both Galvanise and Inspiring Presence. Yeah, I got the kill :). It was a bit close, though, as the three heroes present (the third was Redeemer Fanatic) were on four, five, and six hp at the end.

Technically, Expatriette's incapacitated side can give it a third attack, making it deal three damage, and an incapped Argent Adept can boost a damage type, or you could use it with a +2 damage against a target that's immune to projectile damage, or get +4 to the next damage dealt (from dead AZ and/or Fanatic) and use it against someone with 2DR.

(I apoogise for the nitpickery, and understand the point you were making, I just felt like figuring out if it was possible to hit for three with the Bow.)

He said 3 damage twice on the villain turn, with Ultimate Target in play.  Which is right, just phrased differently from the way you put it.  With Ultimate Target and the nemesis bonus, the base damage is three, and it happens twice.

It can't ever deal an odd number of damage because it deals two hits.

Not true. I was playing CR just last night and did a total of 3 damage to the boss total with the bow each time. It was because there was a Water Trough out in Silver Gulch, which increased lightning damage by one. I made the bow do lightning damage for its second type, which ended up being 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. 

Never mind flamethrower already covered it…

You are correct so I guess it makes him like everyone else ( he takes 2 gains 1, they all take 1).  It doesn't change anything about what I said.

Oh yeah I forgot about the possibility of one damage type being buffed over another. Okay so apart from that the bow can't deal an odd number of damage in total ;).

Yes, but I don't think of that really as "interaction." He does it, and it happens, but he'd do it no matter what since it benefits him. It's not so much that they do something with what he gives them: damage prevention and anti-attack by the villain just kinda happen.

Salvage Yard, I noted is really his only "interactive" card.

I didn't mean that he fails to help his team at all. Heck, hitting the villain helps his team. It's just the feel that he's not really working with them while he's helping them.

If Fanatic can hit Mr. Fixer with Consecrated Ground, or Expatriette with her Assault Rifle and have that redirected to the Villain by Mr. Fixer, than that is interaction.

Normally Chrono Rnager has been good, but we had a  game the other day where had no Bounties and none of the Bounty draw cards. He had plenty of the get Bounties out of the trash cards. If he doesn't have any bounties or Sudden Contracts, then a lot of his deck doesn't work.

Since these are 10 of his cards, this will be a rare event, but Expatriette has 13 guns or cards that get guns, and some people act like the no gun Expatriette happens all the time.

I think it's not so much people don't get with Ex-Pat so much as people don't feel they get the right gun. You're stuck with Pride but no Prejudice for most of the game, or you have a submachine gun when there's DR on the field.

Actually I have heard the No gun complaint a lot. It just seems that that no Bounty hand will happen much more often then the no gun hand 10 vs 13. Personally I have never seen the no gun hand, but I have now seen the no bounty hand once. And Chrno with no bounties is a sad panda. 

I've had the no gun hand a couple of times. I've also experienced what you described earlier with a bunch of Ranger's Marks instead of Sudden Contract. I think the no bounty hand is easier for people to deal with because there is still the strong possibility of getting the Sudden Contract and selecting the bounty you need at the given time. He also has Eye on the Prize and Just doin my Job to draw and play additional cards. Quick Draw is a great card but Pride or Prejudice without the other is no better than a hero's innate power, and Arsenal Access puts everything to luck. I

It's mostly cause even without bounties you can still grab some of your other weapons that might be more useful. Like even with no bounties 1 irreducible damage from a buff might still be better than none.

Also Expat, Arsenal Access I have been in I end up with more Ammo since they count as equipment. Or when I do get a gun out some effect clears it out and back to square one.

We joked after a round the other night that we should take each copy of Arsenal Access in Expat's deck and replace them with Impromptu Invention, just to see how drastically Expat's play changes. Then we realized how much that would really help Expat... so now we might actually try it.

That may be a bit too much. Impromptu is okay for Wraith because she has a lot of equipment that does a variety of things. Ex-pat has guns, ammo, and Flak Jacket. The change I tried which worked out okay was expand Quick Draw to allow you to search your deck for any gun, you can search your trash to get either Pride or Prejudice.

I wasn't counting Arsenal Access, but if you do then Exp has 16 ways to get guns, and the chance of not drawing a gun with Arsenal Acess is your hand is no guns is fairly small. Certainly Arsenal Access is better at finding a gun then Just Doin My Job in a 3 hero game at finding a bounty. 

Anyway, normally Chrono has been great for us, but ... in that game with no bounties he was bad, very bad. It happens bad luck.

The number of ammo and Flak Jacket cards is 11, which is exactly the same number as the number of guns. Depending on your opening hand and how your deck is stacked, it's actually very possible to draw only ammo or a Flak Jacket when using Arsenal Access.

Assuming the worst case for Exp, no guns and no other equipment, arsenal acces will find a gun 76% of the time. 

Assuming the best case for Chrono, the other two heros are willing and able to discard, Just doin my job will find a bounty or bounty search card 64% of the time.

if playing with 4 heroes than:

Assuming the best case for Chrono, the other three heros are willing and able to discard, Just doin my job will find a bounty or a bounty search 75% of the time.

Anyway with three heroes this favors Exp. 

Chrno is a great hero, but like Exp not getting her guns, Chrno not getting his bounties is tough.

CR is far more fun than Mr Fixer in my opinion.

Because Mr Fixer gameplay is : Put a style, put a tool, pray you draw a card that isn't a style nor a tool so you actually have something to play.

Mr. Fixer far too often draw card he didn't need nor have to play so his turn are short and quite boring because he simply lack things to do.

Chrono-Ranger have a LOT MORE variety, there is seldom a card he draw that he doesnt want to play nor cant play. And all thoses cards have the great (do 1 projectile damage) that means they are dual use and always interesting.

You want Mr Fixer to be as fun and interesting to play than CR ? add a (deal 1 melee damage) line to his style and tools cards. So there is a reason to play them.

I think 76 percent is a bit too high of a percentage to give Arsenal Access. There are 11 guns and 11 other equipment cards. Your chance of drawing an ammo card or Flak Jacket is just as likely as a gun, and again it kind of depends on how your deck is stacked. I don't think it's a bad card, but every time you play it, it's a gamble, and there are times the gamble doesn't pay off.

And let's not forget that CR's searches let him decide which bounty or weapon to grab, while Arsenal Access just gets the next in line. So if you don't get lucky enough to get the right gun for the situation (almost always the shotgun, but there are times when other guns shine), you're doing inferior damage and hoping that you get better luck later.

Right, and on those ground, they're great team interactors.

Other than Salvage Yard, what does Fixer consistently do, that does that kind of thing?

I'm just going to completely agree with this.  I've had a few games where I'm fighting someone like Spite and I only have a submachine gun (which I got from arsenal access just to add to that point).  Yikes that is horrible.

Aresnal Access gets two cards.

The chance the first card is a non-gun is 11/22. The chance the second gun is also a non-gun 10/21.

The chance that both draws will be non-guns:

(11/22)*(10/21) = 0.76 x100% = 76%

Some other stats:

The chance that Exp. doesn't have a gun or a card that let's her search for a gun in her opening hand = 10%   (higher than I thought).

The chance that Chrono. doesn't have a bounty or Sudden Contract in his opening hand = 20%.

Chrono is a great hero, but I would argue that he does have a similar problem to Exp. If he doesn't have any bounties or Sudden Contract, then a big chunk of his deck is dead. Just like if Exp. has no guns, then her ammo cards are useless. 

Except that with Chrono, the deeper you get into the game and the more built up he gets, the more damage he deals. With Expat, once you get the shotgun out, you're sort of building for an Unload, but if you never get it, you're just plugging away with your shotgun all game (which is well and good for raw damage output, but it does make you wish you had more to do with the character).

Spiff,

You mentioned you are big supporter of Fixer, but you use a house rule version of him. The Fixer lovers are in favor of playing him as written. None of the Fixer haters are against him as a character. We Fixer haters just don't like him as written. We want to institute house rules to make him more fun. We are all supporters of Fixer if you tweak him. I've played the Fixer on your site a few times and I love it. The version I play these days lets you discard 1 card to boost.

See, I don't see Fixer's weakness as dealing too little damage, because I don't see him as a damage dealer. To me, his weakness is card draw and getting the right cards in his hand to be the versatile support he has the potential to be.

(And Rook City comes today, so I'm guessing that a bunch of my solo games for the next few days are going to involve both Fixer and Expat, so I don't have to rely on going to Sefirit's place to play them :-p)

You mentioned you are big supporter of Fixer, but you use a house rule version of him. The Fixer lovers are in favor of playing him as written.

I liked Fixer even before all the Fixer-fixing talk became a thing around here, and it never occurred to me that he needed any help.  Once people started kicking around the idea of changing his power, I gave it a shot and really enjoyed it.  So I liked him without the house version, and I like him even more with it.

I'm in the same spot with Expattriette.  I like her and never have any problem with her.  If there were an easy way to alter her base power to make her even more fun, I'd probably give that a shot too.  Fixing individual cards seems like too much of a pain in the keister.

umm… your math is a little wonky. 11/22 (or 1/2) * 10/21 (basically 1/2) is .25, not .75. When multiplying, you take both the tops times each other and both of the bottoms times each other, so it would be 110/462, which comes out to .238

He was jumping a step in writing. Or misstyping.

The chance of no guns is 23.8%, which means the chance of at-least one gun, which I think is where youper was going, is 76.2%

That just doesn't make any sense to me. Mr. Fixer is one of two Hero characters who can consistently convert multi-target damage into single target damage, by using Driving Mantis (the other being Absolute Zero, who can only do it with Fire damage). So how can you say that's purely a property of the other Heroes who are doing multi-target damage?

It's escaping me now, what does Driving Mantis do again? is it the damage redirection?

Driving Mantis is the first time each turn Mr. Fixer would be dealt 2 or less damage each turn he redirects it to a target of his choice.

I have to admit I don't think I ever thought of having other heros target him when he has this out.  I'm a supporter of his and now I like him even more.

Exactly, Driving Mantis + Pipe Wrench is one of is more powerful combos. Ra plays Inferno? Target Fixer and he'll hit redirect it to another target for you. Tachyon play Sonic Vortex, guess who'll be a target? Wraith with her Throwing Knives and Micro Targeting Computer sounds like a plan to me. Bunker with his Grenade Laucher is like a game of baseball! So many targets that can be hit and so little time.

if you don't have Pipe Wrench, the Dual Crowbars are really good as well. You can target the enemy and yourself, thus redirecting it! Though this way means you can't play Harmony as it would be too much to redirect.

So, another of the parallels between Fixer and CR is Bloody Knuckles & Hunter and Hunted. I avoid playing Bloody Knuckles, but love Hunter and Hunted. Bloody Knuckles acts just like a one-shot in most cases. I do not like changing individual cards because it can be hard to keep track of, but does anyone else think that Bloody Knuckles should just stay in play like a normal ongoing? If that sucks, how about at the start of your turn you MAY destroy it. If that's too good, how about it says, "Power: Destroy this card."

Wasn't there a base power house rule someone was using where it was like Expat has a 0 damage gun base power that can take up to 1 ammo.

So even if your hand is all ammo you can contribute if you get damage buff. Or can risk by drawing 2 extra cards when needed.

She must have another gun on her. That would make sense since her hair trigger reflexes doesn't need a gun in play. I certainly don't use her innate too often.

So how would that power be written?  "Power:"... what?  And, do we know if it was a good suggestion, or just a suggestion?  Has anyone tried it?

I don't think I'm clearly describing what we think of as "interaction" correctly.

It's inherent things that directly and consistently help other teammates and make them better, either directly (healing, extra power use) or indirectly (environment protection). It's not just "hurt the bad guy = help the team" because everyone does that.

What you're describing seems more like them helping Fixer, by giving him higher damage amounts than he would normally have and/or letting him make an attack he doesn't normally have.

I also don't have my cards in front of me, but can Assault Rifle hit the same target multiple times? I thought Driving Mantis can only be used the first time in a turn, no tmultiple times. So… Fixer + DM lets Ex-Pat hit the villain once and Fixer hit them once.?

Tomato, tomatoh, perhaps. But the gist of it was that Fixer has one attack/power, and almost everything he does alters that attack in different ways. Other then that, it's get equipment out of people's discard (if they have any, and if they have it in their discard), and a bit of blanket damage reduction on the bad guys.

its my suggestion

Power Hold Out Gun

Expatriette Deals one Target 0 projectile damage. This Counts as a gun.

effectively letting you play ammo next to her character card if you happen to draw a hand full of ammo. it slows down her overall build up (she has absolutely no ways to play multiple cards a turn beyond speed loading now, and that is a very specific circumstance) but gives her some versatility. I haven’t tried it out yet. If anyone doesn’t me kmow

and yes as written you could drop multiple ammo on her in prep for an unload - I’m not sure if there is room to write

this counts as a gun that can hold 1 ammo

but even if there isn’t how many situations where playing multiple ammos on your card would be better than using them? (since she has vsr less double play)

It's exactly the opposite. It's Mr. Fixer helping other characters by letting them make an attack they don't normally have.

It can, if one of those instances is redirected. If Expatriette targets Grand Warlord Voss and Mr. Fixer with her Assault Rifle, and Mr. Fixer redirects the hit to Grand Warlord Voss, then Expatriette hits Grand Warlord Voss twice.

I would almost never use that zero damage power. Unless you NEED one or two damage to finish off a key target, you're better off drawing two cards. The reduction in her overall build up from using this power is not from losing access to Load, it's from halving the rate she draws into the cards that let her be effective. You're going to want to ammos later when you have guns to put them in anyway.

Bringing the topic back to Chrono Ranger for a moment, I was wondering something earlier and just wanted to ask about it - most of his bounties (okay, all of them except Ultimate Target) are destroyed when their target is destroyed. But the Ennead aren't destroyed when you "kill" them - they flip instead. They're not destroyed but they're no longer targets. Does this still cause the "target destroyed" part of a bounty to trigger? I suppose the same would be true of the Operative as well, actually, not just the Ennead.

@Ameena. Thats a pretty good question.

I remember a similar situation regarding Plauge Rat and his infections. When a hero was incap'ed, the official ruling was that the infection card stayed in play on the incap'ed hero. 

Can we apply that ruling here? Possibly. The Ennead and the Operative both have incap'ed sides, so it follows they follow the rules for becoming incap'ed. Namely that when they would be "destroyed" (meaning going into the Trash from play), they flip instead. I would think that the bounties, in fact, do not get removed in this situation, and stay on the incap'ed target as they never reach the "destroyed" part of the bounty cards condition.

Could very well be part of the rational for Jim's Hat letting you destroy a bounty as a free action

I was wondering that - the target isn't destroyed because it's flipped, therefore the bounty stays in play. But the target, in flipping is no longer a target, and bounties can only be applied to targets. Then again, a hero who's Infected isn't a target if they go down either, and the Infection still stays. So I suppose a bounty on such a target would in fact stay in play, and need to be destroyed via the Hat or other means. But if you destroy a bounty that way, you wouldn't get any of the normal bonuses, would you? For example, the bounty that lets you draw three cards when the target is destroyed - it says to draw three cards and then destroy the bounty. If you just destroy the bounty anyway (eg with the Hat), it just goes away with no other effect, I would think. Still, you might want to leave all the bounties in play anyway to power up the Masadah or whatever.

The bounties say "when that target leaves play" not when it is destroyed. Since once flipped they are no longer a target, thus the target has left play.

Ooh, nicely done.

I don't agree. I think it'that wording is meant for cases like Into the Stratosphere, where something leaves play without being destroyed.

A bit late to the party here (after having to bite the bullet and register and all rather than just lurking) but thought I'd throw in my 2c.

I was one of those players that was initialy underwhelmed by fixer, but grew to appreciate his subtleties.  I particulary love his theme, being very similar to my favourite childhood cartoon (the one featuring the crime-fighting janitor canine).

I was certainly not underwhelmed by CR.  Alright, he has almost zero support capabilities but his sheer damage potential left me feeling that he is what a lot of players want expatriette to be-a character bristling with guns who outputs an almost constant hail of lead.

I was particularly interested in the interaction between these two.  Forgive me if this strategy has been discussed elsewhere but I like to get three bounties out before playing hunter and hunted.  I then have fixer target CR with his jack handle and all hell breaks loose.  CR *would* take 1+3 damage but instead fixer puts that many damage tokens on all non-hero targets instead.  As the number of buffs to fixer or bounties in play rise the damage only gets sillier and it's pick-your-poison as far as fixer's styles are concerned.  CR can focus on nuking one target while fixer clears the rest of the board.  If the baddie destroys all your nice stuff, fixer can get the equipment back through salvage yard.

I like to pair these two with the scholar for tanking/healing/redirection purposes and if I'm feeling really cheap, team leader tachyon for extra draws and lightspeed barrage.

I know the fixer/CR combo is reliant on getting the right cards out and takes a couple of turns to build, but boy is it fun when it comes off!  Likewise, I'm willing to stand corrected if I'm just another newbie interpreting the rules incorrectly...

Well, I'm late to the party, too - my computer died.

I jus wanted to tell how surprised I am to see a thread about a supposed weakness of Chrono-Ranger ! I had the ocasion t play him a lot recently, and in my experience, he felt more overpowered than weak... I rarely play on dvanced, where damage reduction can severely reduce is efficiency, but on normal, he is the most powerful damage dealer in my experience, even without outside help.

It's fascinating to see how we have such different experiences with the same heroes.

Unfortunately, when you redirect you recalculate damage taken. Since the +3 is only for damage CR takes when you use Jack Handle on CR the non-hero targets don't get the +3. If that was the case everyone would be in love with Bloody Knuckles because Fixer could target himself.

BTW I like your uwer name.

I can see that being a possibility, but after reading it that a target needs to leave play and once a card flips it is no longer a valid target so the target has left play. If the text on the bounties read card I would be able to agree with you 100%, but as the case being that it says target I can't agree with it. It may need an official ruling on it to see what it will actaully end up being.

It was asked in playtesting, sadly it looks like it was overlooked.

The word "redirect" isn't on jack handle, so must we recalculate?

I was following Spiff's "Rules and Clarifications" which state:

"lastly, what exactly does “that much damage” mean? If mr. Fixer would originally deal 1 damage that gets bumped up to 3 damage due to modifiers, does the damage he deals to all non-hero cards get to be bumped up with those modifiers again?
 

No, it doesn’t. whatever amount of damage was dealt after taking into account all modifiers is what is dealt to all nonhero cards. It doesn’t get modified anymore."

Yeah it may not be considered a "target" anymore, but it didnt "leave play" either, so I am not so sure it fullfils that condition. I can easily see this ruling going either way to be honest. I believe you are correct in that we will probably need an official call on that one

Hmm...okay I thought bounties acted when a target was "destroyed" - I haven't looked at Chrono Ranger's deck for a week and this situation hasn't come up for me yet so okay - evidently I misread. In which case I'll go with the "it's flipped therefore it has no hp therefore it's no longer a target therefore the bounty triggers" idea, which is probably what I would've done anyway had this come up in game and I'd actually been able to look at the card in front of me. When I first wondered about this issue I was sitting on the train on the way to work, so that'll be why I misremembered what the bounty cards say for triggering on their target having been dealt with.

I wouldn't say the target left play.  It just ceased to be a target.  That doesn't mean it went anywhere.  I agree with what tacticaltechkyle said above.

Personally I think this is the exact reason that you have the ability to use a power to destroy a bounty on your own.  So you can place bonus damage bounties on the Ennead and after they flip you can destroy them yourself.

Yeah there was a whole thread about this with regards to bloody knuckls actually.  A lot of talk, no offical ruling

If a target was in play and it has ceased being a target, wouldn't that in a sense mean that it has left play? If the target didn't leave play than it would still be in play, if that's the case it would still have an HP value. But once the card flips it no longer has an HP value, making it not a target. Something that was in play and is no longer in play sounds to me like it has been removed from play. The card itself may have no left play but the target on the card had to of left play as it is no longer in play.

If a target does not leave play when it loses the status of "having HP" then that leaves huge room for all kinds of wackiness with Imbued Vitality

@Ronway, this is exactly why I said I could see this ruling going either way and I would not be surprised. Both interpretations make sense to me oddly enough.

I think the issue at play here is the inherent differences in a Character card and a non-Character target.

Sticking with the Operative for a moment, allow me to make my case another way. The Chairman has a two cards in his deck that causes both the Chairman and Operative to either do direct damage or heal, and the wording on these cards is interesting. Basically the wording on these cards is "The Chairman does X. If the Operative is Active, she does X"

The intent of these cards is for a secondary action to occure if the Operative has not flipped. This leads me to think that Character cards have two states, "Active" and "Incapacitated" (Non-Active). I think these two states of "being" are inherently different from the states of being that non-Character targets can have, that of being "In Play" and "Leaving Play" (the Destroy mechanic). For a target to "leave play", in my interpretation, it must be "Destroyed" (Tempest and Into the Strata being the exception).

A Character card, as we know, can not be destroyed, therefore follows it can not leave play. Or we can reword that last sentence. A Character card goes from being an "Active" target to an "Incapacitated" target (non-active). The Character card does not cese to be "target" in this sense, but just ceses to be an "active" target. But the Operative is still in the play area and still impacts the game mechanically, something a target that is "not in play" can not do.

That was rather long for an interpretation that I am not married to haha

What about Miss Information? She isn't a target at first but then becomes one once she flips. This is basically the reverse of the Ennead and the Operative, who start out as targets but then flip to not being targets as they have no hp. All the text on bounties applies to the "target" on which they're played...you can't play them on Miss Info till she flips because she isn't a target. Therefore the Operative and the Ennead presumably do the reverse - they stop being targets once flipped and so bounties can't apply to them any more as the target of the bounty no longer exists. A target is something with hp - flipped Operative and Ennead, and unflipped Miss Info, aren't targets as they have no hp listed on their cards at this time. Or something.

But Miss Info is, in fact, in play at the begining right? I do not think you could argue that she only enters play when flipped.

Even so, the real issue here is whether an "Incapacitated" character card counts as a target leaving play. I do not think Miss Info can help clarify that point. 

What if I worded it this way. Even IF we say that semantically that the Operative or the Ennead are no longer "targets" after they flip, the Operative, Set, Atum, ect, are all still in play. Character cards never "leave" play. So they become non-targets. OK. Their status of active target disapeared, but the card did not leave play, just changed its status to "no longer an active target".

Either way the truth is we are just twisting words to make things fit. It is going to need an official ruling to know for sure.

*Paging Chris* 

I don't think the issue is the differences in Character Cards and Non-Character cards, it is more of an issue of Target Vs Card. If the bounties stated if the card is removed from play or if the target is destroyed than I would completely agree that it wouldn't destroy the bounties if placed on the Ennead or Operative flipping. The fact that it uses target instead of card leaving play tells me that it functions differently. They do not become Incapacitated Targets when they flip, they are simply Incapacited as they no longer have a HP value on that side.

I just really can't think of anyway of describing it at this point, other than my previously stated that the card is no longer a target thus the target part of the card has left play but the card still remains.

Edit: On the case however with Miss Information, it is true she starts off in play, but once she now becomes a target thus a Target has entered play. I consider that material for hair-Trigger Reflexes to kick in at that point.

Edit #2: Just sent Christopher a message linking this topic to him. So hopefully he'll see it and be able to give a proper response when he has the time.

What's the Realm of Discord card that makes all equipment and ongoing cards become targets?  In that case, targets must enter play since they weren't there before, which means they must leave play when they're no longer targets, right?  The cards were there prior to them becoming targets, and they're there after they're no longer targets, but if you can't target them, then the target is no longer in play.  I'm fully with Ronway on this.

I don't know what you guys are talking about any more.  I'm more interested in an official ruling on the Jack Handle/Bloody Knuckles (or Hunter and Hunted) interaction.

In a sense, but not in all senses.  Its ambiguous.

I disagree, there are plenty of cards that are in play with not HP value.  Its just as reasonable to think that the target was transformed into a nontarget that it is to think that it "left play"

That is correct, but that doens't mean that the target left play.  Just because and ice cube in a glass melts doesn't mean its no longer in a glass.  It is just no longer an ice cube but the water that it became is still in the glass.

It is still in play, it is just no longer a target.

Yes, I understood your assertion the first time I read it.  I think it is a perfectly valid interpretation.  I'm saying there is an equally valid alternate understanding of the rule.

Right, you can put bounties on them to start, but not PUT NEW bounties on them after.  That is really the reverse.

Well, the cards entered play not as targets, then they became targets.  That doesn't necessarily mean that targets entered.  Again, I don't think there is anything wrong with how you are thinking about it, I just think it is equally valid to think of it the other way until we get an official ruling.

I didn't even notice that you posted this way back when.  Yeah, with the interpretation that the target doen't leave play the bounty would just sit there until some other effect destroyed it.  Of course that is pointless for all but the healing bounty.

Spiff, I see where you are coming from. But where I still am getting caught up in, is that those "targets" do not go through any action that makes it mechanically "leave play", which is why I do not think bounty's condition can be met. Lets do a real game senario here:

The Operative takes a 40 point fireball to the face, bringing her HP to 0. The Operative, instead of being destroyed (ie: the specific game mechanic that makes cards in play leave play), it flips over instead to an Incapacitated side. The card "The Operative" never leaves play mechanically. Notice the bounty does not say "When this target no longer exists". It says "When this target leaves play". A target, by definition must be a card right? If the card never leaves play, how can the target? Is there a target out of the field of play (either trash or deck) you can find that is called The Operative that is also a target? There should be if there was ever one removed from play

I am probably splitting very fine semantic hairs though and I recognize that. You and Ronway tend to have a better instinct to these things than I do, so Id just as soon assume you guys will end up being right. It is a fairly important ruling now that I think about it, as it effects Chrono, Tempets, Visionary, AZ, and any other hero who has cards they can play directly on villain character cards

The important thing I just realised is that Dual Crowbars helps you use Riveting Crane. Punch somebody with no damage reduction (e.g. Fanatic), then do the same damage to, say Dark Hero #2, or The Matriarch, and now Dark Hero #2 no longer has damage reduction.

Mayeb it's also that Mr. Fixer only has one power of his own. (Right?) He can do a lot of things with it, but at the end of the day, it's still one power. Chrono-Ranger has several. Even Tachyon has a second power.

Why would oyu need to punch someone else first to trigger Riveting Crane? Surely you might as well just hit the intended target in the first place - hitting someone else first won't make any points of damage any more likely to get through the soak...?

Actually, hitting someone else first does make it more likely to get through the soak, because the second instance of damage is the same as the first, and totally ignores both soak and situational damage boosts.

Raelly? Where does it say that? There's nothing to say that Fixer's second hit with the crowbars is irreducible...

There's a ruling somewhere on other that "the same" means exactly the same, with no modifications.

Yep, I've got it in my Clarifications doc.  The second hit is not re-boosted, it's just the exact same total amount (after boosts) as the first hit.

This.

We've discussed this before, but it really needs a ruling. If Fixer targets himself while Jack Handle and Bloody Knuckles are in play does he hit non-heroes for 3 or 5?

Oh, I'd've thought that the second crowbar hit would still need to get through soak in order to land. I get that it doesn't get buffed a second time, I already knew about that one :).

Oh god Spiff, what have you done?!

That feels very wrong to me. I will continue playing it the way that doesn't feel wrong until there is an official ruling otherwise: he deals the pre-buff amount of damage a second time, and you recalculate based on the modifiers for the new target. That way you don't get free damage boosts by hitting a boosted target first, you don't miss out on boosts by hitting a boosted target second, and you don't get to skip soak.

People seem to want to let the damage from Scholar's Mortal Form to Energy be boosted and soaked, because that's the intuitive interpretation. Making the second crowbar's damage "static" means that Mortal Form to Energy's damage is "static" as well. Which, again, feels very very wrong.

Well, I think we are not certain.  If I remember even the "official ruling"  was later stated to mean that it doesn't double dip ie get a second bonus from effects like Galvanize.  I don't know that a satisfactory offically ruling was given for the different DR and specific bonuses that are target specific.

I absolutely agree with you.  Maybe it would help if Fixer's text said something like "same base damage".  Anyway my group usually plays both crowbars and jack handle based on the base damage of the additional attack and then do bonuses and negatives on a target by target basis.

I, for one, do not wish Mortal Form to Energy to be boosted and soaked. Intuitively to me, MF2E should be a function of healing rather than damage deal. So MF2E should be affected by Solid to Liquid, Oppressive Smog, Phosphorescent Chamber, etc.

I agree that it is affected by those.  Usually I use those to determine how much is healed, then use that same number as the base amount for the damage but then check any damage bonus or reduction.

Also late to the party…but I wouldn’t say they have left play as they still have effects that trigger every round

About the Jack Handle/Dual Crowbars with Bloody Knuckles/Hunter and Hunted thing:  I spent two days thinking long and hard about it, arrived a conclusion which contradicted Spiff's Rules and Clarifications, wrote 1500 words attempting to justify why I thought doubling up on buffs was a better interpretation of the text on the cards than dealing static damage (ignoring Voss' armour makes me feel really uncomfortable) and then read this post: https://greaterthangames.com/comment/3949#comment-3949 which put me straight on that matter.  To get over avoiding soak I'm going to start playing with the house rule that Jack Handle reads:

“Whenever Mr Fixer would deal damage to a target, he instead directs that damage to, and finishes the damage calculation for, all non-hero targets.  Whenever this card enters play, return any other tool cards in play to your hand.”

Meaning if (x+b-c) is the damage I would deal to a target, Jack Handle means I’d deal each non-hero (x+b-c)-d.  Where x is the basic damage of an “attack”, b is the increase to damage afforded by buffs, c is the damage reduction on the “original” target and d is the damage reduction on each subsequent target.  You're double-dipping the soak, but if that's an issue maybe you should play Alternating Tiger Claw ;)

As for the bounties question that came up in my first game with Chronoranger.  I got a bounty on Blade, hit him for some damage, he flipped and I tried to con my friend into letting me destroy the bounty so I could get cards (it was mid-my turn and I wanted a bigger hand).  "I can destroy that now, right?  Whad'ya mean no?  The target's left play!  He was Blade the Beam Inventor, now he's Blade the Vengeful Mad Scientist.  They have different max HP and everything!  Ok, but seriously, what do we do about the Ennead?"

I think we decided we'd destroy the bounty, on the basis that the target was there and now it isn't (with no chance of returning) so must have left in one sense or another, even though the card is still in play.

An official ruling on both of them would be nice.

If Blade flips, he's still Blade, and still a target. He's just wearing a different costume now and has recovered some hp...a bit like Fanatic with her Aegis, I suppose ;). With the Ennead it's an issue because they are no longer targets once they flip - they're incapacitated, as is the Operative. Baron Blade doesn't leave play when flipped. The Ennead and Operative...well, they no longer have a hp total, therefore are no longer targets, so is that a case of "the target has left play (therefore bounty actiosn trigger)"? I think that's the issue here.

Blade actually never leaves play, not even his target status has left. Since it says "Restore X HP" meaning it is still the same target.

I wasn't being clear myself. I had meant exclusive a function of healing without any further damage bonus or reduction. That's my interpretation of MF2E.

Sorry I should have made myself clearer.  I recounted the Blade part to set the scene, where I was intentionally being a ****, leading to consideration of what we'd do if they were played against The Ennead or The Operative.

When I said:

I was refering to the hypothetical scenario with The Ennead/Operative, not the bounty on Blade.  I wasn't seriously proposing you remove the bounties whenever any villain flips.  I have no idea what you'd do if you put a bounty on something that became a target via (I've forgotten the name… Imbued Vitality?) the card that makes equipment come alive.  If you follow the same logic the target has leaves play after the card giving it life is destroyed, but the card that was a target is as much "in play" as it ever was.  Though if Chronorangeer has issued a bounty on a talking hairdrier they're going to be looking for a very long time…

I believe the problem with that thread is that people later said that when Christopher said "same period" what he really meant was you don't double dip the damage buffs, for Fixer, however this didn't address DR on targets.

I play it as if it says "Whenever an attack by Fixer would target one target, you may instead target two targets" for crowbars and "Whenever an attack by Fixer would target one target, instead target each non-hero target" for jack handle. 

That way you calculate the damage bonus and reduction separately for each target.  Since most damage buffs are static Fixer would still get the same bonuses (or negatives) against every target, however each target would get its own DR.  If a target has an something like "this target takes additional damage" it would only apply to that target.

One place where I can see an issue is if he has some kind of damage bonus (or negative) for just the NEXT attack but I can't think of anything that would give him that outside of an incapacitated hero ability.  Maybe you condiser all of it the next attack or maybe only the first thing hit.

I'd play it the same way you play Rampage and Haka of Battle, the first strike is buffed (or debuffed) then the others are normal.

This is also the way I play Jack Handle and Crowbars by the way

First off, Spiff I'm only using your logic cause I think after reading the thread you put up the best logic backing Ronway.

That said here is my 2 cents coming from someone who uses CR as a main go to character. (ill try to keep it smple)

Statement: Cards in play that become "targets" or lose their "target" status (incap) do not enter and/or leave play. Here is why I think that is.

Per the rulebook (pg 19) PLAY : "When a card is played, (enters play) the text on it takes effect, and then the card either stays in play or goes to the appropriate trash"

Now with Spiffs example, Say Imbued Vitality enters play and Haka has Ground Pound in play already.

GROUND POUND - When this card enters play, discard 2 cards or destroy this card. Non-hero cards cannot deal damage.

With Spiffs logic, ground pound becomes a "target" and enters play again, thus setting off the effect, but I think we all agree this wouldnt be the case, or else you'd play every ongoing / equipment card that says "when this card enters play" all over again because the rulebooks states that you activiate the card text when it is played (enters play).

Conclusion: If you agree that the above scenario would not happen, then the same can be said for when a target is incap, since they lose their "target" status but stay in play and since they are not leaving play, CR's bounty cards do not leave that card. Again Spiff, no offense I merely used your example cause I felt you put forth the single best example backing Ronway.

No, just entering play doesn't make something a target.  Ground Pound isn't a target just because it was played.  My logic goes like this:

• I play Razor Ordanance.  It's put into play in front of me.  It is not a target.  I have no targets in play.
• Next, the Realm of Discord turns it into a target.  There were no targets in front of me before this event, but there are now.  The target must have entered play since it wasn't there before (if it didn't enter play, how'd it get there?).  The card was there before, but the target wasn't.
• Once the Realm of Discord card disappears, so does my target.  It's not there anymore, so it must have left play.  The card is still there, but the target isn't.

I don't want to argue this too strenuously though, since it's just a logic exercise and could still be wrong (McBehrer is always urging me to use simple logic when deciding what to put into my Clarifications doc, so I'm trying it out here).  However, Christopher's opinion is really the only one which matters in the end, I suppose.

I agree with Spiff, and using the example posted by quiksterboy44, Ground Pound's effect would not trigger again with Imbued Vitality because the card itself did not enter play again at that point, just the target aspect of it. 

But, I also agree that we are arguing semantics on what entering play actually means and a lot of that is just open to our own personal interpretations, so we'll either have to wait and see if there is an official ruling on this or just use our own house rules when dealing with these situations. 

ya i see what your getting at although I dont think my post was read correctly. ill use your last example.

Instead of Razor Ordanance, say you use Ground pound.

1.It's put into play in front of me.  It is not a target.

2.I have no targets in play.

3.Next, the Realm of Discord turns it into a target.

4.There were no targets in front of me before this event, but there are now.

5.The target must have entered play since it wasn't there before (if it didn't enter play, how'd it get there?).

from here, by this example you would HAVE to replay Haka's ground pound on the environment turn correct?

again GROUND POUND - When this card enters play, discard two cards or destroy this card. Non-hero targets cannot do damage.

by this example, it "re-entered" play by turning into a "target", forcing HAka to have to discard another two cards or destory the card while on the environments turn, right?

P.S. dont take me as arguing, i simply like discussing ideas and scenarios of how the game is played. thats all

Targets and cards are not two different things Spiff. 

A target has to be, and always will be, a card. A card isnt always a target, but a target is always a card.

If a target leaves play, it follows that its card must leave as well (a target is always a card remember). If a card did not leave play, a target could not have left play either.

Unless you can provide an example of a time when a target is NOT a card, then this should settle it

Yeah I totally agree with you quickster. I think if you agree with Spiffs and Ronways interpretation of "leaving play", you would have to accept this interpretation as well of targets "entering play". Great example dude.

To jump on the semantics debate here I think you might be slightly off here. Obviously we can never have a target that is not a card in a card game, everything is a card. What spiff is pointing out is that the designation of target is, like you say, a special name given to certain cards. So if a card, such as imbue vitality, can create targets that were not there before what do we call it when that target no longer exists. If it's hp was dropped it leaves play, but if it loses the status of target then we have a problem.

I think what settles this for me, barring official word, is that when imbued vitality leaves play those cards that were targets are no longer in play as targets the cards are still in play, but the target aspect is not. So to return to the original problem if the Ennead or The Operative are flipped I think they are no longer in play as targets, they might not have left play entirely, but I would feel justified destroying the bounty card since the Target "The Operative" has left play, even if the card "The Operative" has not.

I think that's the point though. After Imbued Vitality is destroyed and the ongoings lose their target status the cards are still there, but the target are not. The way I see it, the targets have left play since they are no longer there. If this transition is officially defined as something other than "leaving play" then I would agree, but until then I believe it fits the definition since it was there and then it wasn't. 

A target has to be, and always will be, a card. A card isnt always a target, but a target is always a card.

I understand this logic, though your conclusion is no more supported than mine. We're all just guessing.

However I will say that in my construct, you would not activate Ground Pound again, because the card has not come into play again.  It's the state of being a target that's come into play.  In my view, being a target is a state (conceptual) not a thing (card).  In my view, when Miss Information flips, her card goes from not being a target to being a target, even though the card has not entered or left play.  That seals the deal in my mind.

I think I'm with Spiff.

Really?

It's going to be a week until I'm reunited with my rulebook so I can't check the definition of a target and I'm having to use logic.

All birds are birds.  Some birds are also predators.  Does it follow that all predators are birds?

All cards are cards.  Some cards are also targets.  It does not follow logically that all targets are cards.

I can't provide Foote an example of a target that is not a card because the only other Sentinels paraphernalia I have are boxes, tokens, rulebooks and dividers.  Currently none of those are targets.  I am keeping an open mind as to whether a non-card may be a target in future expansions.  I am also open minded to the fact that may be wrong if the rulebook defines a target as "a card which…", but like I said I can't check it so please forgive me.  I'm also not a philosopher so please help me see any flaws in my logic that may be there.

Regardless of that, this is how I would rule the situation:

I am the player controlling Haka and keeping count of other cards are of no interest to me:

1. Start of the game.  I have 0 cards in play, I have 0 targets in play.
2. I play Ground Pound. I have 1 card in play, I have 0 targets in play.  Ground Pound has entered play, so I trigger its effect.
3. Imbued Vitality enters play.  Ground Pound becomes a target.  I have 1 card in play. I have 1 target in play.  Compared to the previous stage, Ground Pound has gained the quality of being a target.  One target has entered play but no more cards have entered play.  I would not reactivate ground pound.
4. A bounty is attached to Ground Pound, as it is a target.  I have 1 card in play, I have 1 target in play.
5. Imbued Vitality leaves play.  Ground Pound loses the property of being a target.  I have 1 card in play.  I have 0 targets in play.  Compared to the previous stage, a target has left play.  That target is Ground Pound.  The bounty is destroyed because Ground Pound (the target) has left play, even though Ground Pound (the card) is still in play.
6. I destroy Ground Pound.  I have 0 cards in play, I have 0 targets in play.

Thing can appear and disapear with out coming from somewhere or going somewhere.  I like the ice cube arguement I used earlier:

If I put an ice cube in from of me it isn't water.

Then the ice cube melts, now I have water in front of me. (where did it come from?)

Secondly I no longer have ice in front of me so where did it go?

Well of course we recongize that they are one in the same, simply having different properties at different times, but the water didn't ENTER a second time, and the ice didn't LEAVE.

Another example which may be more fun and in line with Sentinels:

Baron Blade uses a disintigration ray on an inept lacky.  The lacky is no longer there, but did he actually leave?

From my understanding the arguement for the target leaving is basically claiming that the card and the target are two separate things.  They enter separately and leave separately (this could be from the same effect at the same time).  I can understand this arguement, it seems valid.

The arguement stating that the target doesn't leave play is essentially saying it is possible to have something cease to be without leaving.  I understand this arguement, it seems valid.

So basically, I hope for an officially ruling as I think both sides are correct from their given points of view.

i'd like to use your point to further explain what the effect of imbued vitality would have if done this way. As i see it of course.

If Imbued Vitality causes "targets" to leave play, then it surely had to have caused targets to enter play. Meaning the card that wasnt a target, now IS a target. Meaning like my example in my eariler post, Ground point was just an ongoing card, after Imbued Vitality it is now an Ongoing "target" card that has now entered play like you said.

The rulebook states CLEARLY that once "A CARD" enters play, in this case Ground Pound with a total of 6 hp entered play, you automatically activiate the text on the card. Thats straight from the rulebook. Ground pound is now at target that has entered play, cant argue that fact. No matter what entered play whether it be a target or any card, you just activite the text on the card, its in the rules.

To ignore the rules of when a card enters play means your playing by your house rules.

Again if Imbued Vitality causes targets to LEAVE play, then it must have caused targets to enter play, meaning all equipment/ongoings on the field get to be replayed, meaning if CR has bountys out, he would get to RECHOOSE who he plays them on, Unity's Supply Crate would automatically let her draw a card and so on and so on, twisted either could be replayed on something else.

That is what would happen if you played Imbued Vitality that way, if it causes Ongoings to become say "ongoing targets" they still re-enter play, thus by the rulebook, activiates their text.

Again no offense to Jag, im merely using that scenario as to show the cause and effect of what would happen if Imbued Vitality would let stuff enter play again.

But Ground Pound the card is not entering play, Ground Pound the target is. Ergo, the text that activates "when a card enters play" would not activate, because only a target, not a card, has entered play.

From the rulebook: Target-Any Card with HP is a Target

For something to be a target, it must both be a Card and have HP. If either of these two conditions are not met, we would all agree that the card in question is no longer a target, correct?

Real world senario time!

I am CR. Solo. I fight the Organization. In my opening hand, I find Kill on Sight (the bounty card in question). 

"Play this card next to a non-hero target. When that target leaves play, draw 3 cards and destroy this card."

Ok! The Operative is non-hero, is a card, and has 45 HP. Boom. I play KoS on the Operative. The Operative is the target. Right?

I use a slightly modified base power for CR where I deal one target 45 projectile damage.

The Operative is reduced to 0 HP. Since the Operative was in play before KoS, her flip mechanic would trigger first. The Operative flips instead of being destroyed and leaving play. Now she is no longer a target and still in play.

When talking about order of resolution, where would you say KoS kicks in here? Are you going to say that the moment she flips, The Operative (card with HP) leaves play and gets technically replaced by a brand new card called The Operative (card without HP)? I do not think that is the intent or purpose of the flip mechanic.

How about Kismets Talisman. If you played KoS on the Talisman, when its brought to 0 and flips, are you prepared to say that the first talisman target "left play" by fliping as well? If so, when the Talisman flips, would it trigger something like Expats card that deals damage whenever a villain target enters play?

but the target IS the card, if you say that only a target entered play, may I ask what the name of the target is? surely we wouldnt count tokens as targets. You cant say a target entered play w/o it being associated with a card which leads to that card entering play.

As for what happens when Imbued Vitality leaves play w/o equipment or ongoings breaking, we dont have card text for that  so simply nothing happens, as far as I can see.

I do understand what your getting at Blue, i just think a target must be assiocated with a card, the target's gonna have a name and that name is going to have card text which activiates.

Within the confines and limitations of this specific game, it absolutly follows that all targets are cards. It says so explicitly in the rulebook

All targets must be cards as well. Period.  It is in the rules and there are no current precedents to the contrary

To change the stubject a bit, but keeping it around the same hero...One thing that's come up with Chrono Ranger is with his Ultimate Target bounty, which lets Jim use a power the first time that target deals damage each turn. I think this is one of those "deas damage versus dealt damage" issues again but...if the target deals damage but that damage is soaked (eg the target with Ultimate Target on it tries to hit Legacy for one point of damage but he has Fortitude out and so takes no damage), does Chrono Ranger still get to use a power? It doesn't specify that hp has to be reduced for him to do so, but I seem to recall there are other cases where someone who's dealt no damage (eg Ra when he has Flame Barrier up) doesn't get to trigger an effect. Then again, those tend to specify that the target's hp has to be reduced for their effect to go off. I'm guessing that whatever the case regarding Ultimate Target damage, it'd be the same if the target of the attack was immune to damage as well, since the bountied target is still trying to deal them damage - it's just that nothing is happening.

Ha, now we are entering the existentialist debate on what it means to be or not be a card and what entering play and leaving play means. 

As mentioned by many others, I can see your point in saying that nothing has "left play" but that the target aspect of that card has simply "ceased to be" or something of that manner... but until we get an official ruling that in game terms these to things are defined differently, I believe that the logical conclusion that if something was in play, but is no longer there then it must have "left play" or somehow been "removed from play" because we have no other game terminology to explain this phenomenon. We have a lot of other words and phrases to describe such actions in the English language, but within the definitions of the game we do not. 

In regards to Ameena

The way I handle that when playing CR is by the common rule that if no hp was reduced, no damage was dealt, which is not to say i'm a fan of that rule :( but when it comes to "if the target took damage that way", its usually stated in order for a secondary effect to occur although I would love to hear other opinions on the matter lol

Yeah "that deal vs dealt stuff" can get fiddly as well, but in this case I handle like quiksterboy mentioned. Nobody's HP was reduced therefore the bountied target did not actually deal any damage... so no power for CR. 

Again, I could be wrong... happens a lot. 

I agree with that interpretation: no hp reduced = no power for CR.

Okies, that's how we've been playing it. Technically it means Chrono Ranger is less powerful if heroes have soak/are immune to damage but I suppose he still gets to plink away about a zillion times on his own turn so it's only a relatively minor thing, really.

Have no fear folks! I have gotten the answer we all have been waiting for in this crazy topic for oh so long. If you don't want to click the attachment, then i'll type it. 

When a Target suddenly becomes not a Target anymore, such as when The Operative flips, that Target has left play. When something that was not a Target suddenly becomes a Target, such as when Miss Informatio​n flips, that Target has entered play.

Ruling.png1350×741 236 KB

Ah...well, that might make Imbued Vitality a much, MUCH more complicated card, then.

Sweet.  Going in the Clarifications doc.

Not to beat a dead horse, but the target entering play does not mean the CARD has entered play, right? Therefore in the example cited earlier Ground Pound would NOT trigger again when Imbued Vitality is played, correct?

Woot! Any answer is a good one. This makes me VERY interested in playing more games in Realm of Discord just so I can do crazy stuff with Imbued Vitality. I was wrong sure, but the new posibilities are cool

Of course not, that would just be silly as the card is already in play. Now if ground pound stated "when this target enter play" then that would trigger it, but considering the only time it would become a target is when Vitality is in play that would make is a little too powerful, right?

oh wow, my oh my how Imbued Vitality will change gameplay, makes it more interesting i guess. But yes Jagarciao thats exactly how those will should play out now, while Ground Pound will get effected negatively, most other ongoing cards/equipment cards get buffed by being played again on the environment turn.\

this leads to so many question,

1.what turn order do you "re-enter" ongoing/equipment? player turn order most likely?

2. Big question, do ongoings/equipment enter twice? example - you play unity's supply crate, draw a card, then supply crate becomes a target and "re-enters", so you draw another card?

With the new ruling it has to be played this way right?

side note: SUPPLY CRATE - When this card enters play, draw a card.

ground pound does state "when this card enters play", as i stated in my first post ! im supplying gold here people ! j/k man this is exciting, gotta to play marathon of realm of discord games.

The card is not re-entering play. However, the Target aspect of it is. So, no, those cards are not re-entering play and do not need to be reordered or reactivated.

ahh interesting ! thanks for the clarifincation

In which case, Miss Information flipping would still activiate Hair trigger reflexes.

So an important distinction has been drawn between card status and target status. The first implication that jumps to mind for me is that a target can leave play without being destroyed, though now that I type it, I have a nagging feeling that we've had that clarified before.

Imbued Vitality makes Promo Blade a hint more dangerous, though I don't think he has too many ongoings that would all go under his villain card and prompt a new card to be drawn. Does he have any other than his DR ongoings?

He also has his Backlash Fields. I had not thought of that previously though. Now Mad Bomber Blade scares me a bit more in the Realm now, well at least his front side. His flip side would be awesome as he wouldn't have his Backlash Fields or reduction while that card is out and it doesn't play the top card of his deck so it's all good!

Yeah, so if he has 4 ongoings out, at the very least that's 4 more cards for his next bomb and 4 one-shots, though more likely that's a lot of cards going under him... plus the 4 one-shots. Plus the draw-until-a-one-shot at the start of his turn :-p

I just discussed this with my roommate and decided that it counting as a target leaving play fits with the spirit of the game but probably not the letter of the rules.  Then I read the official ruling and have to say "Yay spirit of the game!"

Oh that's cool...wow, Chrono Ranger in the Realm of Discord...as soon as Imbued Vitality comes out, put as many bounties as you can on any random equipment/ongoing cards so that when Imbued Vitality leaves play, they all get to trigger at once (except Ultimate Target) :D.