Iron Legacy Nemesis

Just to make absolutely certain, the 6 heroes that Iron Legacy has as Nemesi (Nemesises?) he does an extra point of damage to, and they to him in return. Yes.

Yes.

Nemeses, I believe, and that's correct.

So heroes and villains can have multiple Nemeses. That's cool. I have not beat Iron Legacy yet. Are we sure he is a 4 and not a 5?

No one has been listed as a 5, yet. I still think the Chairman is the hardest.

Yeah he's a 4. I'm actually 2-0 against him so far, which I'm pretty sure is better than my record against The Organization. It helps that he's only one target instead of a deck full of recurring ones.

It has been our experience that the difficulty levels of The Chairman, The Matriarch, and Iron Legacy are comparable, with relative difficulty of any given game depending on the heroes and environment chosen, as well as the villain's card draw.

Play Iron Legacy with no way to destroy his ongoings imo he's a 6 at that point. >.>

Based on my experience I would rate the 4's in the following order (1 being the hardest)

1. Chairman
2. Iron Legacy
3. Matriach

Anyone beaten Iron Legacy with two heroes yet? :P I want to try it, mostly just to watch them die...

EDIT: I tried it, Iron Legacy on normal, with H=3 and in the Realm of Discord, since I've heard that's fairly easy.

Omnitron-X and Unity went badly - I didn't realise IR's fondness for hitting all targets. TPK in 4 rounds.

Omnitron-X and The Scholar also went badly - I had no real way of dealing damage, since I was scared to play components since IR would just break them. Conceded in 3 rounds.

Now my brain is too sleepy to continue resisting him, so IR wins this time...

Try adding Bunker:Engine of War into the mix. You will find that will greatly tone down Iron Legacies abilities.

I think apostate (on advance) is worse than anything I've ever seen the chairman do (also on advance)

Only if you actually draw Mode cards, which seems to be my biggest problem when playing (either version of) Bunker.

I did it! Engine of War and Ra in the Time Cataclysm took down Iron Legacy. Things that helped greatly: Engine of War's power combined with an ample supply of modes, two of IR's starting cards being Superhuman Redirections which I managed not to trigger, and Oppressive Smog from the environment greatly dampening IR's healing abilities. Even so, it was an extremely close game. I don't plan to try it again.

Impressive

I just had my first experience with Iron Legacy, against Tachyon, Absolute Zero, Fanatic and Tempest in the Time Cataclysm (all randomized).

Iron Legacy just demolished Tachyon and Tempest, and AZ and Fanatic only stayed in it as long as they did because Tempest kept making them immune to Melee damage...but Toxic damage from Environment cards and Projectile damage from Flying Assault would knock them down here and there before finally knocking them out.

He's kinda scary (though two of his first four cards were Galvanize).

I had two games against Iron Legacy where his starting Ongoings included Vigilance. In the first of those two games he had, I think, two Demoralising Presence out. That was a paddling.

I looked at Iron Legacy, then on his advanced setting.

No way I am going to win against him with a random team, you really have to select who you take and I think you need the ability to One-Round him because he clearly could fix all damage dealts to him so the more you hit him the more he kill you.

I think Mister Fixer or other 1 damage heroes are really a bad idea against him.

Not necessarily - Mr Fixer with Driving Mantis and a Pipe Wrench can redirect Iron Legacy's end-of-turn damage back to himself, as long as Iron Legacy isn't buffed. That combo plus Harmony makes Strike deal three damage, so if you play Overdrive that's six damage in a turn. Alternatively you could play Charge and deal four with that, plus three from Strike for a total of seven damage (as long as Leggy doesn't have any soak, of course). Iron Legacy only has 32hp, same as normal Legacy, and little plinks of damage all add up. The main challenge is surviving long enough to deal it, that's all. Oh, and taking out as many Ongoings as possible. Mr Fixer also has his wonderful Grease Guns, which will certainly help.

Similarly, you could categorise Chrono Ranger as a "one-damage hero" since that's all the base damage his attacks ever do. But a few bounties and the Masadah and you have a way to deal damage that totally ignores Iron Leggy's soak, plus if you have the "Ultimate Target" and "By Any Means" bounties you get an extra +2 damage on top of that.

I would say that yes, some heroes are probably fairly crap against Iron Leggy, but I reckon that if the cards go your way, any combination of heroes can beat him - isn't that what the GTG guys have said some time ago, that any combination of heroes can beat any villain? Sometimes I think it's just a matter of getting bloody lucky, but I reckon it is possible. I'd probably just get a bit bored after Iron Leggy beat me about twenty times in a row ;).

My three victories against Iron Legacy (not on advanced) have all been chosen from random heroes. Two of those games randomly obtained Omnitron-X, who makes easy work for Iron Legacy, kind of...

The real trick is not letting him keep ongoings in play, so anyone who can destroy more than 1 ongoing using a one-shot (Absolute Zero and Omnitron-X) are great to appear, along with heroes that have a power to destroy them (Argent Adept and Engine Bunker) are also exceptionally well. Reduction to damage is also very nice, either when playing not on advanced or after he flips. Deal enough damage to him to even out his healing and surpass it and you've got the game in the bag!

Fixer can probably do better than a plan that relies on Legacy not having any buffs OR soak.  I'd forgo the Driving Mantis in this fight.

Random teams certainly aren't taboo against Iron Legacy.  I have a decent win record against the advanced version of him playing random teams.  There is probably a way for any group of heroes to win, even though it might take very specific draws, or incapacitated shenanigans, or no small amount of beating your head against brick walls.  It's certainly not your average recreational activity.

The teams that would do worst are the teams with zero ongoing destruction or the teams with miniscule damage.  It also seems like he doesn't scale quite as well as some villains - that is, a 3-hero team will have a much tougher time than a 5-hero team.  This is especially if the normal strategy against him is debuff him for a couple rounds, then one-turn him from >20 to zero on turn 3 or 4, right before he kills you.  Three characters just won't be as efficient at that.

So… who is good at him?  Anyone with a good amount of damage and a few ways to remove ongoings are probably the best.

I think the members of the Freedom Six are generally good at him, except Unity, who'll just have an infernally tough time keeping bots out.   I would avoid Omnitron-X (I'm talking advanced here - Plating is worthless and he can't keep components, unless you choose to flip him).  I'd avoid the Scholar in this fight against irreducible damage, since he also lacks ongoing removal and doesn't typically bring a large amount of damage.  Chrono-Ranger and Expatriette have good options.  Nightmist is always good, but she has to be on the ball to not die right away.  Fanatic has some good options in the fight as well.  Argent Adept and Visionary can field the ongoing destruction, but not so much the damage.  Ra, Haka, and Legacy can field plenty of damage, but not the ongoing destruction.   I would probably avoid Fixer - his damage isn't especially high very quickly, and he lacks ongoing destruction.

That was too long. 

I just want to point out that, well, I find it kind of weird that Iron Legacy isn't nemeses with, er, himself? I can imagine the tension and drama and extra will to fight (which, in my head, manifests itself as the extra damage) when the two Legacies meet, one good, one evil. Even more so if it was Young Legacy. Can you imagine?

YG: "D-dad? Is that you? You're alive?"

IG: "Pauline? Pauline!"

YG: "What's going on, dad? What's happening? What are you doing?"

IG: "I'm trying to keep the world safe, I'm trying to defeat evil, before the end of the Legacy. I am the last Legacy..."

DUN DUN DUUUUNNN.

Why are the YG and IG instead of YL and IL? Also, I believe they aren't nemeses to themselves because up until the Time Cataclysm occurred they did not exist in each other's universe... so they literally have no history together. 

Wouldn't Fixer have value as a tank/support, even if he doesn't have ongoing destruction? (The only time I played Iron Legacy it was the end of a night and we did all 6 nemeses vs. IL Advanced; we stomped him pretty hard, then tried again with 6 others and stomped him again... but I'm still fuzzy on everything IL does.)

As long as Legacy isn't hitting stupidly hard, Fixer can manage it and redirect a bunch of it. Then, once the rest of the team is ready to project force, Fixer can make everything Legacy takes irreducable for that turn.

Plus there's the aforementioend Grease Gun, wonderful against those who like to dish out wicked damage ;).

When we beat Iron Legacy (in only three rounds over ten minutes, our shortest game ever so far) we had Legacy, Chrono Ranger, and Redeemer Fanatic. I recall that Iron Leggy's starting setup was one copy of Galvanised and two of Superhuman Redirection. Legacy and Chrono Ranger held off playing equipment or ongoings for the first turn while Fanatic nuked two out of three of Iron Leggy's starting setup with End of Days. Then I think we all just pounded him with whatever we had - Chrono Ranger was plinking away, possibly with the Compund Bow (can't remember now) and of course we were all buffed by Legacy. Due to the shortness of the game the environment (Discord) didn't really get much of a look in. I think we got Imbued Frailty but I can't remember now.

Contrast with our last game against him, which lasted thirteen rounds, mostly consisting of the Scholar (me) trying to cling on but gradually being whittled down, while the Toxic Sludge of Rook City constantly prevented Legacy from flipping back to his start side. The other two characters, Redeemer Fanatic and EoW Bunker, were taken down reasonably quickly. Eventually my hp ran out as well and Iron Legacy chalked up a second win against us :P.

I think in the last three games Mr. Fixer has been played at my table, Grease Gun has been played/put into play a minimum of 3 times.

Wait, so if anyone with the same symbol is a nemesis that takes extra damage, then do heroes and villains take extra damage when they attack themselves? I know Visionary does with her younger self, but Legacy and Iron Legacy do not.

I've always seen it at the nemesis bonus only applies to someone on an opposing side. Therefore Heroes can't hit themself for the Nemesis bonus, same for the Villians. The Visionary and The Dreamer may be the same character theme wise, but are two different character mechanically, they share the same Hero Icon so they are nemesis. Legacy and Iron Legacy are also the same theme wise, but different mechanically, they also do not share a Hero Icon so therefore they do not get a nemesis bonus.

Oops! Didn't notice that :P you're right, YL and IL, sorry. And still, even if they didn't have any history, wouldn't it still be completely traumatic? Young Leggy would see her father alive once more, but in such a twisted form.; one can only imagine what she's thinking. What more for Iron Leggy, seeing the daughter whose death made him who he is today. I would think this much, er, tension would at the very least merit a nemesis bonus...

But I see a nemesis bonus as being related to a desire for retribution or vengeance which leads them to fight harder against each other. I feel that if anything Iron Legacy and Young Legacy would have the opposite reaction... like an almost paralyzing effect as they figure out whether they can really harm someone that was so dear, but who is now not the same person they remember.

Again though, this is all personal opinion

I recall the official ruling for nemesis symbols is that they apply as long as they are on different cards, regardless of sides.

....fair point. Still though, I think there SHOULD be a little something extra, at least.

Thinking about it, being the nemesis to the Dreamer is a bad thing for you. It makes it easier to accidentally kill her. Unless, do any of the prejections have the nemesis icon?

No projections have the nemesis, just The Dreamer. Luckily Visionary doesn't deal that much damage to begin with.

Also about the Nemesis bonus apply to anyone other than themself, I may have missed that but I don't see how that works. I'll redirect Operative's attack  to the Chairman, now she gets a plus one to her employer, she must really not be thrilled about her job then if she is going to hit her boss more than she is hitting the heroes for. I don't see why the Ennead will feel the need to hit themself for more damage either, it just doesn't make sense thematically at all.

The Operative doesn't have a nemesis icon does she?

As for the Ennead, they may work together, but I get the sense they aren't exactly the tightest of groups (backstory tells us they left two of their number to be devoured by mummies). Also, it is possible that it is simply a resonance of the ancient egyptian magicks, the magic works better against itself that it does affecting other forces in the multiverse.

Or maybe the rule should just be nemesis icons from the same deck (Villian, Hero, and Environment) should not affect each other. So if two nemesi from the villain deck attack each other no bonus, or if two from the environment deck attack each other no bonus

Yeah, the Operative has Fixer's icon, just like the Chairman.  That means that if the Operative were ever to punch the Chairman, their shared hatred of Fixer would cause Operative's punch to hurt more.

It is not just a "nemesis" icon, it is a hero icon. In the case of Chairman and Operative, the Operative would not strike the Chairman for an extra point of damage because the Chairman is not Mr. Fixer.  With the Ennead, same applies, they would not hit eachother for more damage. 

The ONLY way you might be able to argue otherwise would be a thematic argument allowing Anubis (Ra's icon) to deal extra damage to the rest of the Ennead. But, also Consider the case of Plauge Rat and the Final Wasteland enviroment, where that same thematic argument for the above would lead to a different mechanical conclusion, as the pack rats may not attack one of their own (much less the "alpha" rat, so to speak).

Given all of that, I think it is safe to say that the nemesis mechanic is stricktly a relationship between any given hero target and a non-hero target that shares its Hero icon 

You may feel safe to say that, but the designer disagrees.

actually as stated above, the do hit each other for +1. Anubis specifically has been mentioned as such - and in play testing I’m pretty sure we talked about final wasteland hitting plague rat too (even tho we didn’t have the nemesis icons at first)

Given all of that, I think it is safe to say that the nemesis mechanic is stricktly a relationship between any given hero target and a non-hero target that shares its Hero icon

That's not the official ruling, as has been stated, but I think that's probably a popular house rule.  I've never been in a situation where it happened, so I haven't had to decide what I'd do, personally.

I must have missed the fact that there was an offical ruling on that. My bad.

It just seems so...counter intuitive. The enviroment getting bonus damage to a villain and hero I can totally see. But the Ennead or the Chair/Op hitting each other for bonus damage just seems odd if thats really the intent. I guess I can take solace in the fact that the situation does not come up very often

In the few events that this has come up, we usually just ignore the nemesis rule for hero-on-hero or villain-on-villain damage. I really doubt it would make a huge difference either way. 

Think of things like that being that they don't have their guard up against each other. If a hero redirects an attack from The Operative to The Chairman, it's the last thing The Chairman expected and thus gets hit harder by it.

So what IS the official ruling then?

This: https://greaterthangames.com/comment/11786#comment-11786

Thanks. That helps a lot!