Villain Card clarification

So Legacy's power "lead from the front" says that damage dealt by a villain card can be redirected to Legacy...while initially I  had assumed that that meant that I could redirect damage from the main villain it quickly became apparent in a battle against the chairman that that probably shouldn't be the case (when combined with next evolution the match was absurdly easy even on advanced)

so I checked the glossary and it say that a villain card is any card from the villain deck. As the villain character is isolated from the deck I figured that meant that legacy couldn't redirect damage from the main bad guy, just the other targets drawn from the deck (nomenclature on other cards seem to indicate that this could be the intended interpretation)

just to clarify I went to the forums to check for an answer and I saw lots of threads talking about legacy using lead from the front to pull fire from the main bad guys, so now I'm confused for 2 reasons:

1: what is the proper rules call

2: if next evolution/lead from the front is legit on main villains, why are people saying that the chairmen is so difficult?  Or is legacy seen as like the "easy mode" hero, and as a result he shouldn't be figured into the challenge level? 

thanks so much!

1: any damage coming from a villain card (including the villain character card(s)) can be redirected by Lead from the Front.

2: next evolution/lead from the front is very powerful and will make most villains quite a bit easier.  But keep in mind it can only block one type of damage.  Plus, advanced chairman has a good chance of killing you before you can get those cards out.

So there is no difference between a "villain card" and a "villain character card"?  They have separate glossary entries so I assumed they were separate triggers....

As for the chairman, I actually think on average its pretty hard for chairmen to kill legacy before he gets those cards: opperative only deals damage when you off the goons, so as long as you don't try to kill EVERYONE it's pretty easy to tread water until the combo hits.  It's just like citizen dawn, ignore the citizens and she takes a beating.

again, sans legacy it's way way tougher, I'm just surprised a combo that totally guts what is supposed to be one of the tougher fights is legal

A villain character card is just a more specific type of villain card.

Actually, at one point there was a ruling that the Operative is not technically a villain since her card doesn't say villain and doesn't come from the deck.  Personally I've always just ignored that since it seemed kind of silly that a card used with that villain deck is not a villain card, but it would weaken Lead from the Front and as far as I know it is still the official ruling.

The Operative isn't a Villain Character, but I'm pretty sure she's still a Villain card. And a Character.

I thought the definition of a "character card" was one that has a special back to it, like an Incapacitated side. Which would mean that the Operative is a character card?

"The Operative Clarifications The Operative’s character card does not include the keyword “villain”, so she’s just a character card and not a villain character card.  Also, because she has a hero’s icon on her card, she follows the nemesis rules; in her case, she will do 1 additional damage to Mr. fixer and will take 1 additional damage from him."

The above is from Spiff's Rules and Clarifications.  He wouldn't have put it in without official word from somewhere.  It seems weird to me too (though I haven't actually played against the Chairman yet, so what do I know).

Ahh, so she's a character, but not a villain character. But she'd still be a villain card, though, I think, as she's part of a villain deck. So she's a villain card/target but not a character.

But is she part of the villain deck of you don't draw her?  To put it another way

Citizen Dawn is a villain.  

When you fight citizen dawn she has a deck of cards that she draws from to hurt the heroes.

Does citizen Dawn count as a "Villain Card" in the game nomenclature, when the glossary says that a "villain card is any card from a villain deck" you never draw her, is she FROM the villain deck?

To go a step further, there's a separate glossary entry for "Villain character card" which reads :

"the "main" cards for a villain.  Villain have character cards which list the maximum HP of the villain as well as the setup, gameplay, and advanced rules for that specific villain"

As they reference seperate terms it seems even MORE likely that legacy can't lead from the front against damage dealt from the villain character card, whereas he could absorb damage that was dealt due to a card drawn from the villain deck that uses the villain character card as a source

I'm sure that a Villain Character Card is just a card which is a Villain Card and also a Character Card.  The definition of Character Card (in enhanced edition or infernal relics) says that it is a "primary or major character of a deck" and that "character cards do not have the same back as the rest of their deck."  Furthermore, with the exception of the operative, all non-hero character cards say "Villain" right on them.

So why doesn't Operative say Villain?  One possibility is that it is an oversight.  I would say more likely it was to avoid confusion with cards that reference "the villain character card".  However the Ennead obviously decided they were ok with that, and as of Enhanced Edition, Rook City is the only deck that still uses that phrase.  It was suggested here: https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/rook-city-and-ennead that we can basically assume those cards should have the same rewording that enhanced edition got.

I suppose a third possibility is that they didn't want The Operative to be affected by Wraith's "Smoke Bombs", Legacy's "Lead From the Front", Fanatic's "Divine Focus", Tempest's "Genebound Shackles", Rook City's "Twisting Back Alley", Mar's "Villainous Weaponry", and now Unity's "Powered Shockwave".  Also, if she were destroyed it would matter for Bunker's "Ammo Drop", though I would speculate that an enhanced Rook City would also give her the same rewording that Baron Blade got.

The character card definition was one that I missed, thanks for that!  With that in mind, it would seem that the operative WOULD still be vulnerable from lead from the front, because if character cards are considered from the deck, and a villain card is any card from the villain deck, then lead from the front would trigger on operative...because while she is missing the key word villain, LFTF doesn't trigger on villain characters, it triggers on damage dealt by villain cards, which by default the operative is apart of (unsure how the other cards are worded)

thanks for the clarification, I know it's a lot of hoop jumping to find a common sense answer, but understanding synergy is important in these games

Yeah, I added that after a conversation here on the forums about what exactly a villain character card is received confirmation from Christopher (probably). A villain card is any card that's part if the villain deck, which includes the character cards.  The confusion came from trying to decide if a character card from a villain deck was the same thing as a villain character card. The decision was that a "villain character card" is a character card with the keyword "villain", not just any character card from a villain deck. Subtle and perhaps not particularly crisply drawn, but understandable enough once you get your brain wrapped around it. 

To Dypaca - The Operative can't be destroyed, can she? She just flips, like the Ennead, and stays there like that until Pike is dead as well (unless he's already ben defeated in which case game over anyway).

So yes, Next Evolution/Lead From the Front is just as powerful as you were afraid it was.  It can absorb all of the damage from both the villain deck AND any villain characters.  However, all villains threaten you with more than one damage type, so this doesn't necessarily mean much, depending on exactly what's going on, and most villains can kill your ongoing cards if you stall out.

Now, with two copies of Next Evolution, with Lead From the Front and Legacy Ring, he can stand in front of the Chairman's hordes all day.  This is one of the hacks I list in my strategy guide.  But that is a rather specific four-card combo on a character who doesn't draw too many cards.  Also, the Chairman is mean enough that I'm just glad I can point to a particular combo that beats him.

Technically she flips when reduced to zero or fewer HP, and has nothing to protect her from being destroyed by Tachyon's "Sucker Punch" or Ra's "Wrathful Gaze".  However the enhanced Baron Blade was reworded to patch that loophole, so I suspect the Operative should/will be as well.

(Also, the last time I played the Ennead I house ruled that "Ammo Drop" works for cards being incapacitated, but that is definately not in line with the rules).

On the other hand, I think that The Operative was intended to be both a Villain Card and a Character Card, but not a "Villain Character Card". At least when Rook City was released. And I think that the motivation for that was to avoid that certain hero cards to become twice as powerful when fighting against the organization (as Tempest's "Into the Stratosphere" or "Gene-bound Shackles", or Fanatic's "Divine Focus"). But I honestly think it was never the intention that the operative was not affected by "Lead from the Front", for example.

But of course, the fact that "Villain card" + "Character card" does not equal "Villain Character Card" is a very convoluted and counter-intuitive rule. And a lot of cards were changed in the enhaced edition to avoid the use of this rule (like the 3 that i mentioned before). And now the, instead of referencing "The villain character card" or "the villain", they reference "the villain target with the highest HP". 

I have not checked, but my guess is that very few cards (if any) in Enhanced Edition or Infernal Relics make a reference to "a villain character card". 

I also think that, as a merry side effect, all this changes in cards allowed "the Dreamer" to be a viable villain concept. 

I started answering after reading the quoted part, and now I realize that you are probably aware of all  this. But it took me ages to redact this in English, so I'll post it anyway :) 

As far as I can remember, nothing applies any effects specifically to a villain character card. However, you have cards such as Wrest the Mind which specify that they can be played on any target except a character card.

i just picked up infernal relics yesterday and in the FAQ in that rule book it looks like they removed the ability to use 2 versions of cards with the same name. Per page 8

"each power in play can be used a maximum of once per turn, regardless of how many powers your hero may use that turn.  If a card is not limited, you can have multiple copies of it in pay.  However, each copy of that card is considered its own power.  Since you are limited to activating one power per turn, you may thus only activate one of the two "instances" of the power during your power phase"

the wording of the first sentences seem contradictory to the last one,but the last sentence is pretty clear. 

That's not how I read that at all. It's just saying that since you normally only get one power activation per turn the extra card will be wasted unless you get a way to use more powers.

The question asked in the FAQ in the rule book reads

"If my hero can use more than one power per turn, can I use the same power twice? What if I have multiple copies of the same power in play"

the answer printed says

"...you may thus only activate one of the two instances of the power during your power phase"

since the question specifically calls out that in this instance the player has the ability to use two powers, the answer has to be about that special case, otherwise the FAQ isn't actually answering the question.

That FAQ is really confusing. 

I think this FAQ is trying to answer 2 different situations:
A) " If my hero can use more than one power per turn, can I use the same power twice?" i.e: "If I have something that allow me to activate 2 powers in a turn, and I have a single copy of a card that grants me a power, can I activate that power twice?" Answer: NO.

B) "What if I have multiple copies of the same power in play?" i.e: "In a normal turn in which I can only activate one power, if I have 2 copies of the same card that grant me a power, can I activate the 2 cards as a single power activation?" Answer: NO.

Why did they combine this two cases in the same FAQ? no clue.

Actually, the printed answer says:

Since you are limited to activating one power per turn, you may thus only activate one of  the two instances of the power during your power phase.

So that setence is only related to situation B. At last, this is the only way I can read this FAQ in a way that makes sense for me.

So to ilustrate this with an example, and for other new comers like me which are confused with that FAQ, this how I am going to play this:

I will use the Wraith as the test subject, and specifically her two cards "Infrared Eyepiece" (Equipment, not limited, that grants her a power) and "Utility Belt" (Equipment, limited, that reads "You may use an additional power during your power phase")

1.- If the Wraith has one "Infrared Eyepiece" in play, and no "Utility Belt": she can only activate the power in the "Infrared Eyepiece" once (DUH)

2.- If the Wraith has 2 copies of "Infrared Eyepiece" in play, and no "Utility Belt": she can only activate the power once (one activation in one "infrared Eyepiece" card).

3.- If she has 1 copy of "Infrared Eyepiece" in play, and she has one "Utility Belt" in play: she can only activate the power once (one activation in the only "Infrared Eyepiece" card) (of course, she can activate another additional power from a different card)

4.- If she has 2 copies of  "Infrared Eyepiece" in play, and she has one "Utility Belt" in play: she can activate the power twice (one activation for each of the cards) (finally!)

I think this is the general consensus. Of course, @Melonball, if you think the game is too easy, you can do this in a different way… Good luck!

("And yes, Wraith, the example is over, you can pick up your wear and leave. Hum… You don't need to look at me like that. Yes, I will call Legacy the next time I need something like this. Glups")
 

I had been playing the way you described until I read the infernal relics FAQ that made no sense.  

The middle sentence totally confirms that each card is its own power,  but the last sentence undoes that clarity.  

To put another way, if the answer was "you can only use the same power twice if you have multiple instances of a card in play and the means to use 2 powers in the same turn" I feel they could have just said that as opposed to the convoluted wording. 

I think if we have an existing unambiguous interpretation, we probably shouldn't let a ambiguous FAQ entry confuse us, especially when the first two lines support the interpretation we had been using.

Also, there were a number of problems with the IR rulebook. I wouldn't be surprised if this answer was rushed or from a weird non-final revision.

I don't recall for sure, but I believe the printers printed the wrong file.

That would explain why The Ennead is listed as The Operative and the double-printing on the last two pages.

I hate to do thread necromancy, but has there ever been an official ruling on this?

Yes, here: https://greaterthangames.com/comment/1156#comment-1156

From a thread conveniently called "Duplicate Powers", (which I just wanted to note for the next time the forum moves and all the cross-linking gets invalidated again).

Not to be a meany pants, but that doesn't look like an official ruling, it's people like us discussing the rules...it brings no clarity to the infernal relics broke ass FAQ

You were looking for a ruling on the duplicate powers issue, right?  (Not the original villain character card discussion).

The post I linked to is from one of the creators saying first that having two copies of the same power does not make one power use doubly effective.  Then he says that if you can use multiple powers, you can use each instance of the same power.  Is there some other element of this you wanted clarification on?

Nope, this was user error on my part, I missed the admin tag this morning.  My apologies :)