Gloomweaver houserule poll

References:

http://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/facing-against-gloomweaver-2655

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/878230/how-difficult-do-you-find-gloomweaver

There had been quite a few proposed houserules to make Gloomweaver more like a difficulty 3 villain.

1. The only hero that can attack a Voodoo Pin is the Hero that it is attached to, and while attached that Hero can attack nothing else other than their Voodoo Pin. Cards that would clear all Villain cards or all cards in play have severe penalties for someone under GloomWeaver's VooDoo Pins. If any VooDoo Pins are cleared by some special Power Card, the Hero(es) they were attached to suffers damage equal to the amount of HP the Pins had remaining.
2. Zombies have (H)+2 Hit points.
3. At end of villain turn, if there are 3 or more cultists in play, destroy 3 of them. Reveal cards from the villain deck until a Relic is revealed, put it into play, shuffle the revealed cards.
4. Start with all zombies in the trash and H random cultists in play.

Which rule or combination of rules makes Gloomweaver a difficulty 3 villain?

Any one has experience with any of these houserules?

I find rule 1 too cumbersome to implement.

Rules 2 & 3 are nice.

I agree about rules 2 and 3. I like the idea of Gloomweaver's relics being indestructible on his first side. I know this cancels his alternate win condition, but I've never actually played a game against him where he flipped, and most of the time you're better off just killing him than waiting for and destroying all three relics.

1. Don't like it. Sure, it makes it more likely the pin actually does something, but it removes some co-op and can be disproportionally annoying to low damage characters. I'd rather say that a hero with a pin can only deal damage to his pins, and nothing else, but others can still help out.

2. They are very easy to kill right now, though H+2 seems a bit much? Slightly boring too.

3. Gloomweaver really needs something like this, and I don't understand why he doesn't have it. It really feels like an oversight. Not sure about this one specificly. It sort of changes Vast Following to summon relic+zombies, which thematically is a bit odd. I want to try two other variants:

-add to gloomweaver's unflipped side: at the end of the villain turn, reveal as many cards from the villain deck as there are cultists in play. Put any pins and relics revealed into play, and the other cards on the bottom of the villain deck in random order.

or 

-add to gloomweaver's unflipped side: whenever a cultist is played, reveal cards from the villain deck until a non-cultist card is revealed. Put this card into play and the rest on top of the villain deck in random order.

4. seems sort of.. like how it was meant to work in the first place. I like it (though maybe not with that first variant I mentioned).

Personally, I'd only use 4 and a variant of 2: At the start of the villain turn, if there are 3 or more cultists in play, destroy the cultist with the lowest HP and reveal cards from the villain deck until a Relic or Voodoo Pin is revealed. Put it into play. shuffle the other revealed cards into the villain deck.

That won't do much though, usually, it's not that hard to make sure there aren't 3 cultists, and there's a lot of pins in his deck, so most of the time it'll play 2 pins or so extra during the entire game.

You're right. It should be at the end of the turn, as the original number 3 was. Still changes Vast Following, but I think my version is nastier as it keeps msot of the Cultists you draw as well.

I agree. 2 HP is a little too easy to destroy, particularly with Legacy and Tempest on the team. Perhaps 3 HP would be more ideal, much like Voss's minions.

The Zombies are supposed to be easy to kill. You want them in the trash so the cultists respawn as them, giving another bite of the cherry (or heroes).

Plus in the comics, zombies are usually even more of a mook than cultists. The problem is, they keep coming back so wear the heroes down but individually, they're punks. The only time this doesn't happen is when they're super-hero zombies who generally have all the powers of the original or are empowered by some McGuffin, which is already a card that makes them scary damagewise in Gloomweaver's deck.

Having the cultists sacrifice themselves to search his deck is a cool variant. I really feel like all he needs is a way to play more cards, and ways to search for Relics, and he'd be much more interesting. It feels like the idea is a race to do something about him before he flips, but he plays so slowly that it's not much of a race. The problem with this is that I feel like it's not that common to pull 3+ Cultists from the Villain trash with Vast Following. Looking at only a small random selection of the trash means that it'll fizzle somewhat regularly.

Also add to the list:

Replace the text of Vast Following with the following: "Shuffle the Villain trash and reveal cards until you reveal a relic. Put the revealed Relic and all revealed Cultists into play, then shuffle the Villain trash. If there were no Relics in the Villain trash, instead reveal cards from the Villain deck until you reveal a Relic and put it into play, then shuffle the Villain deck. Play the top card of the Villain deck."

The main idea is it makes Vast Following more reliable and adds some much-needed Relic tutoring. I like it quite a bit mechanically, but it's iffy thematically. Vast Following just summoning a Relic and no Cultists is weird. You could drop the "search the Villain deck" but and add the "cultists sacrifice themselves to get Relics" passive to fix that.

How about on his unflipped side "At the end of the villain turn, reveal the top card of the villain deck. If it's a Relic, put it into play, otherwise discard the revealed card." It would add to the race feel without amping his power curve too much by playing two cards a turn.

Hm, seems just a little bit weak to me. Though my variant might have been a bit too much (with also putting pins in play)(still going to try it though), perhaps make it reveal cards equal to the amount of cultists in play (maybe + 1), like I suggested? I’m also not entirely sure about discarding them, because gloomweaver doesn’t really like it when his zombies and cultists are shuffled back, so I would try to not add any mechanic that makes him need to reshuffle more quickly (which is why I used ‘put on the bottom of the deck in random order’.)

I don't like solution 1, it's more annoying than interesting, for me. The three other solutions seem acceptable.

I use my own "variant" of Gloomweaver, by adding two lines to his card :

At start of villain turn, if there is one or more Pin in play, play the top card of the villain deck.

At the end of the villain turn, if there are two or more Pins in play, play the top card of the villain deck.

It makes him feel a little more dangerous and makes the pins a lot more of trouble.

The initial stats from "The Best Heroes-A Statistical Community Effort" forum are a little telling. Gloomweaver was beaten 6 out of 6 times. I know that it is difficult to say he is weak based on so few play, but he was also the least played villain if you add the two Blade and two Omintron versions together. It's just not fun to face him.

What I'd love to see is a Gloomweaver Alternate Promo. (read as I'd pay money) Greater than Games did a fantastic job with the Bomber Blade and Cosmitron promos. I think they gave both level 1 heroes a level 2 or 3 option. Gloomweaver is definitely a 1 and I'd love to see some of the mechanics the playtesters mention in the forums.

I solo Gloomweaver with rule 2 and 3, with H =3. Would imagine the hp7 Zombies getting much tougher with H =5 though :)

I've got an alt oversized villain card for Gloomweaver on my site that incorporates some of those rules.  It adds:

1) Heroes stuck by a pin can only damage that pin.  I didn't add the kicker that no one but that hero can damage the pin because that seemed excessively deadly to heroes that can't put out a bunch of damage themselves (how would Argent Adept ever get unpinned?), plus I think it's more fun for your team mates to be able to help out their buddies.

2) Zombies have H+2 hp.  I've found that the extra hp make the zombies more challenging, but they still get taken down and recycled through the trash when cultists die, so their additional endurance isn't a problem.

I didn't add anything about Relics.  We've found that this version of Gloomweaver feels like a more substantial and satisfying fight, definitely a 3 now.

I'll agree that he is underpowered, but what isn't fun about him?  You and your buddies cleave through an army of zombies and cultists, breaking ancient Relics of evil to prevent a dark god from entering our realm.  We always win against Gloomweaver.  We also always have fun.  I'm for increasing his difficulty, but I don't equate "make him more tedioius" with "more fun."  Rule 1 would make Argent Adept tied up for a minimum of three turns if he had his Scherzo of Frost and Flame and his Syncopated Onslaught with the appropriate Instrument when hit by a Pin (assuming that ideal set up is available, of course).  With all due respect:  screw that.  Not all heroes contribute to a game with damage, and when no one else can meaningfully affect them, it removes the biggest virtue this game has:  cooperative play and teamwork.  Zombies could afford to have three or four life, because it is hilarious using a Grievous Hailstorm to clear the board of worn down Cultists and newly formed Zombies that just hit the board.

I'm honestly ok with Gloomweaver in his current iteration.  Matriarch is an exercise in tedium, Akash'Bhuta's "play more cards" cards can result in her playing as many cards if not more than The Matriarch in one turn (that aren't one hit point bombs that either nibble you to death or break your stuff, but giant targets that tear chunks out of the heroes or prevent them from dealing damage), and Spite's ability to undo all of the players' efforts to save Victim cards is nothing short of infuriating.  To have a villain that so reliably manages to be a fun, interesting, and decently timed fight is a real blessing, if you ask me.  It is a bit surprising that an evil god of sadness is a cake walk, but this is a game where a teenager that writes bad poetry is the sum of all fears.  I can live with it.

I've played Spiff's Gloomweaver and I liked his changes. His version of rule 1 is better. Legacy and Argent Adept would keep on doing their normal support thing.

I find the close games to be the most fun. The ones where you just needed that one more turn are the best. I agree that Matriarch is tedious. But, Gloomweaver is like a practice game. He's not going to destroy your stuff, he's not likely to flip, and you know you are going to win. That's boring.

It does make a nice break from having your arse kicked by those damn birdies or having to worry about a giant spaceship or all your stuff being vapourised, though ;).

In the "Facing against Gloomweaver" thread arenson9 wrote, "Gloomweaver is a difficulty level 2 unless you let him flip, when he becomes difficulty level 4." That's what is supposed to make him a 3. That math works if he flips half the time. That's what I'd like. I'd like to see him flip around 50% of games. Rules 1, 2, and 4 make side A harder. (I'm not complaining about them, though, beacause I think Side A Gloomweaver is a level 1.)

What I want to know from the playtesters is how often rule 3 results in Gloomie flipping. Are there other ways to increase the chances he flips.

Rule 3 is quite thematic in the sense that when enough cultists gather, they sacrifice something or someone and bring forth a relic. I think that’s the atmosphere that the Gloomweaver deck will convey with rule 3.

Note also in the statistics, Gloomweaver has yet to Flip

here are his stats as of today

Does rule 3 get him to 50% flippage? A guess is fine. My guess is rule 3 gets him to flipping like 20% of the time. He's maybe at 1% without any house rules.

Would the proposed rules 3+4 mean, with 4 heroes, Gloomweaver would start with 1 cultist, 3 zombies, and one artifact after the first turn?  If so, I think it makes for a very varied game.  He starts with 4 cultists in play, 3 die immediately, become zombies, and a relic is summoned.

I like it.

As a general question, I want to make sure my understanding of the rules is correct - in the above example, Gloomweaver would get end of turn actions, as would one cultist (the survivor), the zombies, and then the relic (in that order).  Do I understand correctly?

Consider revising proposed rule 3 as follows:

"At end of villain turn, if there are 3 or more cultists in play, destroy the three with of the lowest HP . Reveal cards from the villain deck until a Relic is revealed, put it into play, shuffle the revealed cards."

I've yet to play Gloomweaver (just got IR, and am only beginning to get into it), and am still trying to absorb all the timing issues.

I played Gloomy a little while ago, and tried using the 3 cultists to relic rule, and having him flip as soon as two relics are in play.

Much better rate of flipping with those two changes.

We also tried having three cultists summon a relic, but only destroying one cultist.  That really caused him to flip, without the difficulty dip from the rule clearing all those cultists for you. We originally tried this alteration as a thematic change, a human sacrifice ritual instead of a suicide cult ritual, but I liked the way it changed the game.

I played around with having the relic summon when there are 6-(H) cultists, and killing one, since with 5 heroes it is nearly impossible for gloomy to keep cultists alive.  Still not hard to ruin the fight with Omnitron-X or Adept, but other than them it is a pretty decent fight.

I also like to start the game with the Zombie Ongoing card in play. The initial zombie attacks are pretty heafty that way and really put a clock on the game. Having a Relic on the bottom of his deck is a pain in the arse since it drags the game out and eventually you will lose that damage battle of attrition.

Edit: I wonder if Gloomweaver will see any changes in the reprint of Infernal Relics? Surely the >G guys know in their hearts that Gloomy is not a lvl3 difficulty villain in his current iteration. Might we see a slight change? A fan can hope.

While it is fun to houserule villains and heroes for a little change in the feel of a fight, the only deck in the game that is honestly not very good is Gloomweaver, it would be awesome if they fixed him.

It is unfortunate that I 100% agree. Thematically Gloom is far and away my favorite. I love Lovecraftian mythos and stories (Chthullu Wars anyone? So stoked). But I just have never had fun playing Gloomweaver. There is either A) never any real threat or B) the game takes upwards of 20 rounds because there is a relic on the bottom of his deck. It is usually a mixture of both of those aspects. I can recall epic games against every single villain in SotM except this guy, and its not due to a small sample size of games.

Most recently I tried playing him with the three relics, the zombie ongoing card and the familiar shuffled under his card.  Then I played one card from his deck and one card from beneath him for the first 5 turns. 

This way he flips some where between the beginning of turn 4 and 6 unless you target a relic as soon as it comes out and make it a priority to kill it as soon as it hits.  If you do focus like that you tend to get some voodoo pin or cultist build up so it can get rough.  Of course if you leave it he flips and things get rough then as well.  It worked out well, but we only tried it once so who knows if it would be consistently a good game.

I do like the cultists summon relics idea, that sounds fun mechanically and thematically.

I've not ever really had a bad experience playing Gloomweaver.  His deck is swingy, but not in the frustrating ways that The Matriarch, The Chairman, or Spite are (the difficulty of the individual game is highly dictated by how quickly The Matriarch gets her Cohorts out, or which Underboss/Drug cards are revealed in what order, and Prison Break/Darken The Skies/Forced Entry can completely invalidate any of your efforts).

My group has never had him flip, but I think his difficulty isn't that offensive.  You have a Cthuloid monstrocity trapped in another realm who is forced to rely on Zombies and Cultists assembling his infernal Relics (see what I did there?) and a few Voodoo Pins in the face of trained, dedicated, and sometimes supernaturally/technologically gifted superheroes with incredible powers.  The fact that he's kind of a pushover makes some sense to me.

If we want to face Gloomweaver when he's been unleashed, then just set him up on his flipped side.  I definitely think he could use an intense promo character card, but I'm definitely fond of his deck as-is.  Cutting down Cultists and Zombie hordes in a five player game is something that I just can't replicate in any other game in Sentinels.

I'm inclined to think all of these are excessive.  I found Gloomy to be a fairly credible threat in all three of my games against him; he's more like a 2 than a 3, but I'm fine with that.  The only thing that bugs me is the ability to attack him directly, instead of waiting for the relics; it makes him feel less like a Call of Cthulhu villain, since you generally can't beat those up directly.

I like 3 and 4, with an added special scenario where the relics are indestructable, but when they are reduced to 0 or fewer HP they are no longer targets, and have no game text besides the Relic keyword and the indestrucability clause.

If I were to pick one of these to actually try, I'd start with 2 just because it's the simplest.  However it probably doesn't actually address Gloomy's problems, and it certainly doesn't make him feel like a Call of Cthulhu villain, which I think ought to be the objective.

Frankly, I think I'd remove the Voodoo Pins entirely from his deck, replace them with more Cultists or more Zombies, or with a One-Shot besides Vast Following which can help him draw his Relics faster.  But if we're stuck with the deck he has now, I'd say the answer is to...hm, actually just had a neat idea, what about this?  It's more complex than I'd prefer, but still fairly sleek, once reduced to a single iteration of the several versions I'm tossing out.

5.  Delete the alternate win condition from Gloomy's side 1, and change his start-turn trigger to look in both play and in the trash.  This frees up a line on his front side, letting you implement one of ideas 6 or 7, or just add something about voodoo pins if you insist.  Meanwhile, his back side now has the "At start of turn, If he didn't flip this turn, and he has three relics, the heroes lose" text I suggested somewhere earlier, along with a way to gain a relic back from the trash every single turn without fail - thus, if you don't keep breaking them (and this should be easier than killing him directly), he will eventually reach three and win on his turn.

6.  Move Gloomy's side-A advanced text to standard text, and his advanced text becomes "immune to damage" or "whenever he takes damage, he gains that many HP" or somesuch (though really, it'd be tremendously out of flavor for the Smog in Time Cataclysm to make him more killable, it ought to have the opposite effect).

7.  As #6, except the damage immunity is standard text, and he has some completely other advanced effect.  This version simply can't be killed; you're stuck fighting his cult until all three Relics have exited the villain deck, at which point it's "go time".