Fanatic Guide

Overivew

Fanatic is one of my favorite heroes both in terms of theme and game play.   She's really quite a powerhouse of a hero, but like all heroes, she has her quirks.   Her deck can be strange to play and seems to be a mix of straightforwardness and... not.  With that said, Fanatic excels in both combat and support roles, but you must be aware of the state of the game to extract maximum benefit.  

Fanatic Basics

Here are some things you absolutely must fully comprehend in order to get good use out of Fanatic.  Fanatic is all about gaining maxiumum use out of buffs and debuffs.  Keep track of your bonuses,  always know if you are doing net increase in damage, net decrease in damage, or are breaking even.  

Suppose you have a +1 damage bonus,   what is better:  using it once or using it 5 times?   The answer is obvious,  but you must keep this in mind always.   Many Fanatic cards and abilities hit for small amounts of damage,   this makes any +1 damage boost very effective for her.    To be clear,  Fanatic can often make better use of +1 damage than can, say,  a hero like Legacy.     Now granted that Legacy isn't known for being a combat powerhouse, but bear with me so I can illustate this point.   If Legacy has +1 damage,  he might use it twice on his turn,  one from a one-shot, and once from motivational charge.   This is being pretty generous, as Legacy only occasionally plays damaging once shots, and often does not have motivational charge out (or will choose to use another power instead).  In Fanatics case, she essentially always "uses" +1 damage at least twice because of Exorcism.  She has some buffs in her deck that she will play (Absolution) , but you can almost count on her playing a damaging one-shot every single turn,   he deck is just full of them.   So she will pretty much use +1 damage at least 3 times, and sometimes a whole lot more.

By the same token -1 damage (or +1 enemy armor) hurts you more than it might hurt your counterpart heroes.  Knowing what to do when your attacks arent as effective is just as important as knowing what to do when they are.  Try to do something better than just doing damage,   this is a great time to buff yourself.  You could lay down Absolution, Undaunted, or Aegis of Ressurection.   Absolution is a card that very well might already be out,  so if its not and you have it,  play it.   Absolution can definitely help because it can change your power phase from the 1+1 damage mode to a 3 damage power,   which is preferable when enemies have armor.   Practically no enemies except Matriarch's birds and some environment cards deal 1 damage.   For this reason I usually do not play Undaunted unless on Pike Industrial or against Matriarch.  It also has some applications on Atlantis because of the 5+ damage thing, but I tend to feel Undaunted is Fanatics worst card, and is very very situational.  Aegis is a good play, but you typically want to play it just before you die, in case something comes up that kills your stuff.   However, if not playing against a villain with equipment destruction, this can be a nice play when at -1 damage.   Prayer of Desperation is also quite good in these situations if you have 4 or less cards when you play it (this makes it better than just drawing 2 cards for skipping play and power phase).  

In the one-shot area,  Divine Sacrifice can be used to get in irriduceable damage if you play using the Enhanced Edition.   Just be careful who you use it against.   Final Dive is another good card, often able to take down enemies that are providing Damage Reduction (like Gene-bound guards) opening the door for Excorcism and/or helping other heroes.

Negative damage is not always a liability that you must play around though.   Namely, you can play Chastise and take less damage.  Chastise is a very good card that can pull the teeth right out of some of the most threatening cards in the game.    Embolden also benefits from heroes doing less damage.  

Offense

Exorcism and Absolution are pretty straightforward, but Fanatic has a lot of offensive tricks.   Smite the Transgressor is a very good play when doing +damage,  2 damage from the card, 1+1 from exorcism and 3 from Absolution means that you have just used your +damage buff 4 times.  While I'm talking about powers, I should mention;   I do not like Sacrosanct Martyr.  I feel it is simply too self-destructive to be useful.   1-for-1 ratios of damage dealt per damage taken are not something you want to be doing too often.   I will on occasion play this card anyway if something absolutely needs to die right now and there is no other way to do it.   I feel Sacrosant Martyr should be reserved for desperation attacks though, and definitely not something you plan to do every turn.   

Getting back to one-shots though,  Brutal Censure and Sanctifying Strike should be your bread and butter.   Fanatic needs to draw cards.   She needs to draw a lot of cards.   If you are at +damage or nueteral damage, you should pretty much always play one of these cards unless you have something that is much better.    

Why do you need to draw cards?  Well because you're looking for Wrathful Retribution, aren't you?   The more cards you draw, the better your odds of pulling it.  Usually play this as a finishing move on the villain,  but has other applications like getting rid of Voss' dreadnaughts or Electro-pulse explosives.   Sucks to lose it though,  but if you have a hero that lets you get it out of your trash...  good times.    

However,  there is another, better reason you need to draw cards; Divine Focus.    You  are twice as likely to get this card as you are to get Wrathful Retribution, so you can't dismiss it.    Divine Focus is your other "nuke" card and to be quite honest, it is my favorite of the two.  Strangely, this card is better if you have more heroes because you can use it more before having to pay the price,  but it is a nice card no matter how many players.   The key is that you can discard a card at the start of every turn for 2 damage.   In a 4 player game, there are 6 turns per round, so you can deal 12 damage.    This is very respectable, but you really should wait until you are at +damage, and as you stack on more +damage the card gets stupidly more effective.   Each +1 damage essentially gets used 6 times by Divine Focus alone.  So if you are at +1 damage you can deal 18,  if you manage to drop this when you are at +2 damage, you can deal a whopping 24....  enough to rival all but the best Wrathful Retributions.   I once had a game where even though I didn't have many cards in hand, I dropped Divine Focus turn 1 against plague rat with Fanatic infected and did a rediculous amount of damage thanks to Legacy having Inspirational Presence in his opening draw.  4 cards, but with each card dealing 6 damage, it was an easy 24,  add on 10 more from an Excorcism and Plague Rat was 1/3 of the way dead just because of Fanatics first turn.   I would say it is definitely "worth it" to play Divine Focus at +1 damage, but if you think you can hold out for +2 or higher,  than go for it.   This card can be highly efficient with damage buffs.     If you can take the damage and happen to have enough cards or Prayer of Desperation in your hand... you can repeat the fun all over again on your next turn.

Support

While her primary role is combat,  Fanatic has many good support cards.  Chastise, Embolden, and Consecrated Ground are all pretty straightforward and nice to have.  Zealous Offense can be quite good but it is tricky to use.   It can be very difficult for Fanatic to deal at least 3 damage on her turn without her one-shot play for the turn (which your card play will be taken up by Zealous Offense).  It also doesnt take effect until the round after you play it.   So the best way to do this is to play the card out-of-turn,  but with the exception of incapacitated powers and Argent Adept, this is quite difficult to do.  So you may have to rely on having a +damage buff to get it out,  or being neuteral on +/- damage and have Absolution.   You can also use Sacrosanct Martyr to get the card out,  but again, this is probably only if you're desperate, and if you're desperate, you probably cant wait a turn for Zealous Offense to take effect.

So we've come to End of Days...  what a good card, and a very situational card.   Although it can really own Akash-Bhuta from the Infernal Relics expansion,  usually you dont want to destroy your stuff.    Sometimes, you have to though, and End of Days can be a lifesaver against Forced Deployment or Electropulse explosive.    It would be kind of funny to take Fanatic, Ra, and Nightmist as your team, because they are the characters with Relics,  you could play End of Days and have only a minimal setback from the card.   Unfortunately, Nightmist and Ra have plenty of ongoings they might want to keep around too, so it might not be worth it.  The primary benefit of not destroying Relics is that you get to keep Absolution and Aegis of Ressurection.  

"Redeemer" Fanatic

The Fanatic Promo card is quite interesting,  I've not had a lot of time to play with it.  It lets you draw a ton of cards and helps keep you healthy, but at the expense of Exorcism, which is a pretty hefty price.   It helps Fanatic be good in situations where she might not otherwise excel,  like against Voss or Omnitron where -damage is very common.  You can build your hand easily towards Wrathful Retribution or Divine Foucs.  Redeemer Fanatic seems to fill primarily a support role until you just explode onto the scene with your incredible hand.  Would be pretty interesting to go around and Chastise everything or use Embolden on yourself, keeping your HP from dropping too fast with Redeem and maybe dropping an Aegis if your health got too low.

Particularly Rediculous combos

For some reason,  a lot of Fanatics cards seem to be really abuseable if you have the right teams.   Here are some good ones.

Fanatic+Legacy:  Okay,   who didn't anticipate this being first?  How many times have I talked about how good Fanatic is with bonus damage?  A lot.  Its almost trivial to give Fanatic +2 damage boost with Galvanize and Inspirational Presence.  So good for her entire deck, particularly Divine Focus though.

Fanatic+Unity:    Bee Bot + End of Days.   You can destroy what you want with End of Days, then kill off Bee Bot with EoD, and use its power to destroy EoD, leaving all the rest of your equipment and ongoings intact.   The other combo is Chastise + Stealth Bot.   You are now immune to practically all damage until something destroys ongoing cards.   Fanatic must still take the self-inflicted damage from Chastise to keep the card in play,  but it's a small price to pay for ignoring all other damage to all heroes.

Fanatic + Ra:   This really seems like a match made in heaven/s.   In addition to Imbue Fire really benefiting Fanatic, Embolden really benefits Ra, who can make excellent use of a second power per turn.

Fanatic+Visionary  (thanks to Phantaskippy!) :   They have a lot of synergy going on.   Of course Fanatic loves to draw cards to fuel Divine Focus or maybe get a chance of picking up Wrathful Retribution, so Enlighten is great.   But Twisting the Ether is another beast entirely.  Fanatic benefits greatly from a twisting the ether because she can use the +1 damage buff a lot.  However, turning her damage into Radiant damage can be great too, if you've got Sacrosacnt Martyr.   If you manage to turn the damage from Divine focus or Chastise (or both!) into Radiant, suddenly the Sacrosanct Martyr power looks a lot more attractive.   If you had Divine Focus up, you could attack yourself for only 1 radiant damage, and still be able to belt out 6 damage with Sacrosanct Martyr.

Wrapping Up

Hope you have enjoyed my guide, let me know if there is anything that needs mentioning.   I find Fanatic an extremely fun and powerful character to play,  I hope these insights will lead you to feel the same way.

Well done.  You got pretty much everything I can think of.  Any advice for a situation where buffs aren't coming?  (No Legacy, Ra, AA, or Visionary, and the environment is, say, Rook City?)

Ah, Fanatic and Unity.  Proof that God likes little robots too.

Yeah that can be tough.   Same principles apply though,  you want to be as effective as possible, so drop Divine Focus while at neuteral damage, or don't play it at all.  12 damage to the villain is still quite good if you have the hand to back it up.     Redeemer Fanatic might be a good choice if you have her just because it helps you get your best stuff.   With a little luck, you can pull Absolution quickly and have a nice 3-damage power.    Its not uncommon for Redeemer Fanatic to draw 3 cards per turn,  1 for a Sanctifying Strike or Brutal Censure, 1 for Redeem, and 1 for end of turn, so you can peel through your deck reasonably fast.   

Situations like this one might be perfect for spamming Chastise or Embolden, allowing these cards to function at maxiumum efficiency.

If you wanted to go into the danger zone, you could try tanking with Fanatic.   Use Divine Sacrifice to deal irreduceable damage and take the hits from enemies, healing yourself with Redeem, Sanctifying Strike and Aegis.   Even with Redeem though, Fanatic's self healing isnt nearly as good as the healing by Haka, Absolute Zero, or Nightmist, so you have to be pretty careful to not just die.   Your teammates will appreciate it though.

We used Chastise/Stealth Bot in a game tonight. It's stupidly powerful. We were playing against Voss and ended up _also_ using End of Days/Bee Bot after a Forced Deployment brought out nine minions, though only in order to speed the game to its obvious conclusion.

Another great combo that actually came up the other day is Embolden + Thermal Shockwave + Coolant Blast.

Undaunted rises in usefulness in 3-hero games. H-2 is a fairly common damage, IIRC.

Naturally if Zero is in his "Ultimate" mode than slapping another power on him is pretty good, and he can heal enough HP fairly easily to absorb the damage from Embolden.

Embolden is also pretty good if you have a way of mitigating/ignoring its damage.   Visionary our prime candidate here and I really should have put her in the "particularly abusive combos" section.    If you can sucessfully Twist the Ether and shift Embolden's Radiant damage into something that is non-threatening (Fire damage with Flesh of the Sun God,   Cold damage with Null Point Calibration unit)  then you're in such good shape its rediculous.    

That's basically a 3-team member combo though, which is tough to pull off.   It's much easier to Twist the Ether on Fanatic herself.   Naturally Fanatic loves the +1 damage for her multitude of small attacks, but she can get good use of the negative damage from the card by using Embolden or Chastise, particularly in combination with Undaunted you could potentially reduce the damage from these cards to zero.

H-2 damage is indeed farily common.   I've mentioned Undaunted a lot, there are situations where it is very good to have, and H-2 with 3 heroes would definitely be one of them.    Still,  compared to the rest of the stuff shes got in her arsenal, its not great.   I'd rather use my card play to hit things.    Undaunted CAN be very good against the Ennead with their tendency to do many instances of 1 damage to everybody (pre-Ennead in Force or else Undaunted wont help you),   however I always seem to have the bad luck of playing it just before they play Ancient Magics.

Thanks for this one!  Fanatic is a fun character to use for sure.  There have been games where the card draw did not work out too well but generally she comes up well against most bad guys in the game.  I had not seen the combo between Unity and Fanatic cleaning house as we just got Unity the other day and have only had a few chances to see her in action but I can't wait to see it in action!

I don't quite get how the Bee Bot/End of Days combo would work.  Doesn't End of Days essentially destroy all targeted cards simultaneously?  If so, then it wouldn't matter if Bee Bot destroyed it when it was destroyed as everything else got taken out at the same time as Bee Bot.

Any effects that "happen all at once" or target multiple things are resolved individually. Even if you use Tempest's base power to hit all non-hero targets, you get to choose the order you hit them in. This can matter in the case of his Gene-Bound Shackles, which could potentially allow you to get +2 damage to everything if the target with the highest HP keeps changing. It also matters in the case of End Of Days.

Each target is hit in an order chosen by the players, not all at once. End of Days destroys all the cards in whatever order the players choose.

The only possible scenario where that would be relevant is vs. Ennead, right? Maybe Omnitron if he's taking a pounding and an EPG shows up or Voss and one of his ships?

Or The Chairman, if the The Chairman and/or The Operative happen to be fairly low, or Baron Blade if he's fairly low on either side, or Dawn if she happens to be low and there's a T-Rex and a few Citizens out, or The Matriarch with both Carrion Fields in Play, … AND there's a playtest villain who … well, you'll see.

 I'm afraid that those combos are not anymore within the boundaries of the designer's mind, cf. the document drafted by spiff on page 33 (http://www.spiffworld.com/sotm/files/sotm_rules_and_clarifications.pdf):

Yeah, this guide is old enough to be before those rulings, and the change to Chastise.

One thing people don't seem to get is how good Fanatic can be when she burns herself down to take out a villain.

I have a player who goes all in with Sacrosanct Martyr, divine focus and her other damage self cards, you die a lot, but you also do a ridiculous amount of damage before you go.

Teaming her with Visionary for TtE really improves this strategy, as you can reduce or increase self-damage to set up for retribution, change Divine focus' self damage to radiant so it works with Sacrosanct Martyr, and increases your 1 damage hits.

Also Mental Divergence can allow you to keep putting Aegis on top of your deck to keep the fun going a bit longer.

Embolden on Visionary let's you put Aegis on top, then draw it, so you can play it every turn if need be.

Undaunted gets a bad rap, but the reduction is good, although not with Sacrosanct Martyr.

Also Sacrosanct Martyr and Aegis with fixed point in play is just awesome, kill yourself to heal, and don't lose Aegis.

Retribution is an amazing card.  If you have retribution go ahead and burn yourself down, if not that whole strategy loses a lot of damage.  It hurts that there is only one of Retribution in her deck, that's really the main reason you shouldn't burn yourself down, if you don't have it already, you can't rely on numbers to get it for you.

The big strength of Fanatic's deck for me is the sheer volume of good cards she has.

Zealous offense is amazing, you get to shut down two non-character cards without playing a card or using a power, you just have to deal three damage, which is not hard considering you can deal damage to yourself if you have to.  It also teams up so very well with Divine Sacrifice, as that three irreducible meets the criteria and you can make two of those targets unable to deal damage anyway.  Also Divine Focus works well to keep Zealous offense out, even if you can't do anything else.

Outside of Zealous offense Sacrifice is good for finishing off low health mobs and if you have Undaunted, Stealth bot tanking an enemy who deals everyone one damage, or suiciding yourself to low health to beat IL with a follow up Retribution.  (One of my favorite wins ever)

Her weaker cards to me are Sanctifying strike and brutal Censure, the card draw is nice, and the damage can help, but if you aren't boosted, not so hot.

The real problem with her deck is Wrathful Retribution is only one card, and if you don't get it one whole side of her damage is just dumb to use.  If you get Embolden/Sacrosanct Martyr/Wrathful Retribution/Aegis ealry, burn yourself down and take the bad guys with you.  It's really fun, and crazy.

Mental Divergence only works on ongoings, where Aegis of Resurrection is an Equipment card.

isn't mental divergence for ongoings only? I have never used it for anything other than Ongoing destruction.

Dolt, I got ahead of myself there.  Sorry.  We did that with Fixer and Visionary, not just Visionary.  My bad.

Incap Fixer can do that, since he puts equipment directly into play from the trash. I once had a game where Dawn crushed us and only Fanatic was left with Aegis. Don't remember which was the third hero (2nd was Fixer, of course) but inmortal Fanatic took her down with just 1 turn left before Dawn played Devastating Aurora.

Yes, I was aware of the change, but I hadn't edited the guide.   I will go ahead and do that now though, thanks for bringing it up..

I still personally feel self-sacrifice when it is not an emergency situation is just not the way to go.   For example, if you have Twisting the Ether on Fanantic, as Phantaskippy suggested, and you have Sacrosanct Martyr in play;  you can trade 4 of your HP to deal 6 damage.    Or you could deal 4 damage with Exorcism and not lose any HP at all.   For a measly 2 points of damage difference, I'd rather have my health.

As I said in the guide, Undaunted is just not used often enough to be considered good in my eyes.   It's a decent play if you're at -damage,  or you have nothing else to play.   Otherwise, pretty much always play a damaging one-shot instead of this.

Again, as I mentioned in the guide, half the reason to play Brutal Censure and Sanctifying Strike is to draw cards, thereby increasing your chances of getting Wrathful Retribution or Divine Focus.   These aren't her worst cards,  they're some of her best cards.

If you were lucky enough to pull Wrathful Retribution in your first draw,  you can change up your strategy a little.   You *could* try to burn your HP down and use it as soon as possible via Sacrosanct Martyr,  but I tend to find that losing HP isn't a hard thing to do.   You're going to get to use your Wrathful Retribution anyway, so I see no reason why you need to play it as early as possible.    If you already have Wrathful Retribution, your goals become as follows:

1.  Avoid discarding Wrathful Retribution to villain discard effects, or dying before you get a chance to play it.

2.  Have enough cards in hand to fuel the power.

3.  Get more cards so you can use divine focus too.

In other words,  draw cards.   Which means that Brutal Censure and Sanctifying Strike are still your best bets most of the time.  The only time this changes is if you have a way to get Wrathful Retribution out of your trash.  Maybe Reclaim from the Deep or Vernal Sonota.   If you know one of your teammates has that card,  your priorities shift to:

1.  Play Wrathful Retribution

2.  Have enough cards in hand to play it again.

Undaunted is under appreciated I think. My mind instantly goes to Elemental Storms from the Ennead, Infections from the Rat, Supercooled Vats from Pike. It for sure has some great applications.

But Undaunted is a microcosm of Fanatics entire deck. Undaunted, while extreamly usefull in limited situations, is just that. Situational. Just about every card in her deck, save for her bread+butter Sanctifying Strike and Brutal Censcor (spelling is wrong there), is very situational. 

I'm a big fan of Reedemer. She can get her sword pretty fast which gives her better damage than her base power with no increase, equal to her base power at 1 increase, and only falls behind at 2 or more increases. Plus she also finds her breastplates and Wrath faster. Wrath also hits for slightly more.

Redeemer also combined with Dauntless to make her pretty hard to kill. The biggest downside I can think of is not having garunteed damage each turn and the one card that has her draw until she has 6 gets a lot worse. 

But I think there is a reason she has a slightly higher win% than her basic version and the trade off is worth it unless the team is already really lacking in damage or built around damage increase. 

Elemental Storms:   Undaunted is no doubt useful against them, so long as you aren't on The Ennead in Force, advanced mode.   If you're not playing Advanced mode, chances are you'll never even see The Ennead in Force side.   However if you are,  then that means that Undaunted can protect you from elemental storms for exactly 3 turns if you play it immidiately  (assuming 4 player game), and possbily less if they play Rise to Power or Taste of Immortality.   After that point it is useless against the Ennead.

Infections from plague rat increase damage dealt by infected heroes by 1 if on advanced mode,  which means Undaunted is no help against them.  Besides, if you're fighting plauge rat and you're first to be infected (as you should)  then all your 1 shots are at a massive damage boost,  play them instead of Undaunted.

Pike Industrial Complex is indeed a good place to play Undaunted because of the supercooled trisolvent vats.  I did mention this in the guide.

Don't both Plague Rat and the Ennead have a few big hit one shots that Undauted can take a nice chunk out of?

The Ennead's biggest hit is Blast of Flame,  which deals H-1 damage.   If advanced, 4player game and in the Ennead in Force, with no other modifiers, you are at 4 damage, just shy of activating Undaunted.   Targets highest HP character.

Plague Rat does have some big hits.   Tooth and Claw, which targets the highest with a 5 damage hit (+1 if advanced), and Noxious Bite which targets the lowest with a H damage hit (+1 if advanced).   3 copies of each.   Thing is that it sort of a crapshoot if you're going to be hit with either of these attacks.    6/25 chance for him to play one of those cards in the first place, and you'd have to have Undaunted out and be either the highest hp for Tooth and Claw, or the Lowest hp for Noxious Bite in order to use it.  

Also keep in mind that any global DR that Fanatic can get to help reduce those instances of increased damage (like with the Advanced mode examples) makes undaunted very viable again.

Global damage amp also pushes more stuff into Undaunted's range as well. 

I wouldn't suggest burning Fanatic against high health heroes, or heroes that don't take damage until they flip, but when you have a medium to low health Villain, burning them with Fanatic is awesome.

It isn't a safer, or more tactically sound strategy, but it can be a lot of fun.  If she had more copies of retribution in her deck it could be a much more normal strategy, instead of a niche.  Like I said if you don't get it quick you can't really pull it off, if you do get Retribution quick you can go for it.

You do get dealt damage normally, but Martyr and your other cards that cost HP can help you control the exact amount to set up for max Retribution.

It is a risky way to play her, and you will die.  Fortunately Fanatic has Aegis, and if that fails her incap's are pretty good.

You obviouily don't want to throw HP at anyone but the main target, and not if your crazy kamikazee death doesn't set your team up to win right after.

The reason I posted about it is it seems everyone writes off that strategy as being bad, and it doesn't get used even when it would pretty much gaurantee victory.  You can wait to get beat down, but that means your allies are beaten down too.  With Divine Focus, Chastise, Zealous Offense and Sacrifice Fanatic can burn her own HP while her allies remain higher, and deal a lot of damage to the villain the whole while.

Without Retribution you lose that huge chunk of damage at the end, and that really makes this playstyle a bad idea, so without Retribution you shouldn't even consider it.

But if players get the opportunity they should try it, it is fun and a very different style of Fanatic that most overlook. because it seems bad, but anything that results in a win is good, even if it is unconventional and normally foolish.

Foote:  Did you mean global damage increase?   Only non-environement global DR I can think of is Counterpoint Bulwark.   Which is great, if AA is on your team.

brytehfryguy:      All the "big" attacks that are in the 5+ damage (or 4+ damage if you have a global damage buff) range almost always target a single hero, usually the one with the highest hp.   If that isn't Fanatic,  then Undaunted is no good for you, (from the perspective of the big attack portion).   I know it's not a perfect number,  but you can figure each time one of those attacks hits the table, there is a 1/H chance of it targeting Fanatic.   So if H=4,  about a 25% chance to get to use Undaunted per "big" attack.  

Plague rat -who is a villain with a lot of "big" attacks- has 6 "big" attacks in his deck, say he plays all 6 of them during the course of the game  -a bit unlikely.   You get to use your Undaunted on average about 1-2 times, saving you from 2-4 points of damage over the course of the whole game.   And that is assuming you played Undaunted before any of those "big" attacks hit the field.       It's not worth your card play unless you had basically nothing else even remotely decent in your hand.

phantaskippy:   This is a strategy guide.    I don't make any claims on how to play her how she is "fun" or "interesting",  this is all about optimiziation.   From an optimization standpoint, I have to approach the guide based on what is likely to happen,  which means you probably don't have Wrathful Retribution until late in the game, if at all.  If you prefer to play her differently for fun,   I completely respect that...  however, it is not optimal.  

I would think it's a bit higher than 25% since she starts off with more health than the majority of other heroes not to mention having incidental heals built into a few of her cards. Even more so with Reedemer.

Please note that it is your opinion that is not optimal. Some players may find that it is the optimal way to play Fanatic. Some players even find it optimal to play all heroes that way. It's not very polite to tell people their way of playing a hero is not the optimal way, it is all a matter of opinion.

ronway:  Frankly, no it isn't, and no, it isn't.   

but first, brytehfryguy:  Yes, you're right.  As I said when I mentioned it the first time, it's not perfectly accureate.   But it's not far off either, as heroes tend to even out in HP after a few turns.   And for the first villain turn when her hp is likely higher than most other heroes, she doesn't have Undaunted on the field to use anyway.    Could it be slightly higher than 25%?  Sure.   But not significantly.

It's not rude to tell somebody their playstyle is not the optimal way to make use of a particular hero.   What is and isn't optimal is not a matter of opinion.    There are ways of playing heroes that are less effective than other methods.   Some players may think that it is the optimal way to play fanatic to burn your health down as fast as possible,  but this ends up hurting you more than it helps.    As the author of a strategy guide, I would be remiss if I did not warn players about this trap that is very easy to fall into, as it feels very natural.

I'm willing to bet I've played more games as Fanatic than anybody here on the forum save for the designers.  I do know what I'm talking about.   And yes,  I have actually tried burning down my HP and playing fast and furious.  It can be fun,  I'm not arguing that.   I'm saying when it comes to winning, it's better not to do so.  

If you disagree strongly enough,  write your own Fanatic Guide.  We'll put it up on the page right next to mine, and anybody who feels like reading them can pick which strategy they want to use.   More power to you.    But I'm not going to sit here on my own thread on my own guide and say that losing life every turn to sacrosanct martyr is an equally strong way to play Fanatic when compared to using Exorcism/Absolution as your basic power instead.

I am not quite sure how global damage increases help Undaunted (Edit: I always forget about the Superhuman Durability aspect of Undaunted. I have been playing for a long time and honestly I have never had that or SHD proc that specific effect. Could just be me, but I find that effect (and SHD) not very useful generally when you play with an [H] under 5). I did mean DR effects. There are a many from the Environment (I am not sure why you would discount them), like the healing Vats in Pike for example.

There are a lot of times when the heros are dealt an instance of 2 damage. I have no data to back up this next claim, but I think that 2-3 damage is around the average per instance of damage (considering all [H] between 3 and 5), so any DR that Fanatic can pick up makes Undaunted extreamly good. A DR of 1 means she is essentially immune to all instance of damage of 1 and 2 while still reducing higher instances of damage. If you can manage 2 DR, she becomes immune to instances of 1, 2 and 3 damage, which is probably the majority of instances of damage that will be thrown her way.

Getting Fanatic DR is not usually an easy task. But if she can manage some, Undaunted becomes a crazy good very quickly.

If there ever turns out to be a hero with an Undaunted-like effect and in-deck DR, they would make one heck of a Tank. 

 I don't make any claims on how to play her how she is "fun" or "interesting",  this is all about optimiziation.  

There are situations where it is optimal.  Baron Blade, Iron Legacy, Apostate, Ambuscade, The Chairman, Miss Information, and lesser so Kismet, and The Matriarch all have low enough health that you can burn them down.

The major caveat is you need Retribution to use the strategy well.  A good number of her cards support that playstyle, and while it doesn't make sense in a neutral Comparison, there are enough circumstances where it does work that it is worth someone pointing out that it is an option.

We point out plenty of low chance occurances with other heroes, strategies that work well in certain circumstances with certain cards, and this is the same.  I'm not criticising your guide at all, just pointing out that Fanatic can use this playstyle and help her team win.  The circumstances aren't plentiful, but they do occur, and I think it would be beneficial if they had a sense of strategy in those circumstances.

With a rather lucky draw we had a fanatic tank a round of IL damage with sacrifice, dropping her to under five health, she retributioned and we won, the rest of us were at almost full health.

People see Sacrifice as a card that gives some damage but at a big tradeoff of getting you hurt, but when used well it keeps your teammates alive and sets you up to retribution or just Aegis to stay in the game.  Many times Aegis never gets used, even when it does get on the field.

If Legacy had a +10 hp heal people would be all about it, and wouldn't worry as much about Next Evolution being out before taking damage with lead from the front.  Aegis is at least a +10 heal, sometimes much more depending on how hard the hit that dropped you to 0 health was.  Used as a last ditch survival item Aegis is good enough, but when you save allies HP and bounce back up, it can really make the difference in a fight.

Fanatic is designed as a cost-benefit hero, and she can thrive while being very risky, her entire deck is set up for it, the fact that she works while playing her more traditionally is great, but that doesn't mean she can't benefit a team more by playing it risky.  You just have to be smart about when and how you do it.

It's still an opinion, there is no studies here that say it is based on fact. I'm not even say I disagree with your guide, hell, I haven't even read it. I just wanted to point out that your opinions are not fact. You can say that it is all you want, but it doesn't make it true.

So you skipped the original post, missed all the context, missed all the argumentation, missed all the evidence, and then decided to post here to criticize and tell me I haven't provided any evidence?   Ok,  I'm going to start ignoring you now.

I'm not criticizing, i'm saying you opinion is just that, an opinion.

Edit: I have now read your guide, and I can still safely say that your guide is still your opinion on the optimal way to play Fanatic. It has not changed my veiw points on how I feel is the "optimal" way to playing Fanatic.

I apologize if I have upset you by not agreeing with your opinion and don't feel that your guide is the absolute only way to use Fanatic effectively in the game. However us being two different people are not inclined to share an opinion on a matter. Do I think your preferred method of playing Fanatic is a bad one? Not in the least, infact there are situations where it is better to save Fanatic's HP. None the less, your opinion on the "optimal" playstyle is different than my "optimal" method of playing. I do apologize for offending you, that was not my goal in posting in the first place.

What sort of evidence do I need to provide for you to be satisfied?

Sacrosanct Martyr trades your HP for damage.   You can trade up to 5 hp for 5 damage.  Except that as a power, you are doing it at the expense of other powers, say Exorcism or Absolution.   for now,  lets assume that you are only using one power/turn, which is normal.

Lets say you do 5 damage, the maximum.   What was your trade like?   Well, its easy to say you traded 5 hp for 5 damage.   Except you didn't.   You lost 5 hp for 3 damage.    Or, if you had Absolution out, you lost 5 hp for 2 damage.   This is because you may only use one power per turn,   you can't compare against a null void,   you should be comparing against Exorcism or Absolution,   compare Sacrosanct Martyr against what else you could do on your power phase.    Since you could deal 3 damage anyway with no HP loss with Absolution,  you have just spent 5 hp to deal 2 extra points of damage.

Suppose damage is boosted, say +1.    With Exorcism or Absolution you deal 4 damage.   With Sacrosanct martyr you can lose 6 hp to deal 7 damage.    You've now lost 6 hp for 3 extra damage.   It does not scale better this direction.   At +2 damage, Exorcism does 6 damage, you could use Sacrosanct Martyr to lose 7 hp and deal 9 damage,   trading 7 hp for an extra 3 damage.

If damage is reduced to enemies, but not to yourself, Sacrosanct Martyr can do 5 damage to self to deal 4 damage to enemies.   This is where it starts to look a little better on account of Exorcism being only able to deal 0 damage.   Absolution could deal 2 damage though.   You lost 5 life to deal 2 extra damage.    If your damage is -2, you could deal yourself 5 damage to deal 3 damage, Absolution would only deal 1 damage,  and as you can see again,  you lost 5 hp to deal 2 extra damage.     Now sure,  maybe you really want to kill a Gene-bound guard or something,   I did say in the guide that I might play this and use its power as a desperation attack if something really needed to die and there was no other way to do it.   

Suppose you also have Embolden out,   Now you can use 2 powers/turn.    And Embolden deals Radiant damage right?  Bonus!    Except... not right.   Embolden deals its radiant damage at the end of your turn,  which means that it can't combo with Sacrosanct Martyr.   Too bad!  

Now it's easy to conclude what I'd probably say here:  why aren't you using Exorcism/Absolution instead of Exorcism/Martyr?   Well, maybe you don't have Absolution.   Lets assume that because otherwise using Exorcism/Absolution is exactly what you should do, as you can plainly deduce from what I've laid out above.    Now all your damage doesnt have to compare against Exorcism,  so ... thats good for Martyr. On the other hand, you're taking more damage because of Embolden, so it had best be worth it.

At +0 damage you lose 7 hp to deal 5 extra damage., +1 you lose 9 hp to deal 6 extra damage,  +2 you lose 11 hp to deal 7 extra damage.  You can't sustain this for long.

If there is some sort of a global damage negative, we don't have to cover this with Embolden out becuase remember that Exorcism is useless, so you may as well cancel Embolden, and see what I wrote about just using SS Martyr alone without Embolden.   Hint:  You're spending 5 life for +2 damage over Absolution.  But I did say we weren't talking about Absolution in this section, didn't I?  So you lose 5 hp and deal 4 damage with your power phase.

So when is the best time to use SS martyr?  Well its the last one.   When your Exorcism is reduced to dealing 0 damage and you don't have Absolution.    This works out to be the highest ratio of damage dealt/hp loss when considering what else you could do with your power phase.    That ratio is 4:5,   or 4 damage dealt per 5 hp lost.    Remember if you have Abolution it's better to use that instead.    

Every other time your ratios go down dramatically.   To reiterate, at +0 damage it is 3:5,  or 3 extra damage per 5 hp lost if you do not have absolution.   If you do have Absolution,  it's 2:5 instead.   At +1 damage dealt your ratio is 3:6.   3 extra damage dealt for every 6 hp spent.

Simply put, this simply isn't a good trade for you.   So if you use SSmartyr at +0 (and you do NOT have Absolution) and do this 4 times, you lost  20 of your 30 HP, you dealt 12 more damage than you otherwise would have, but you've likely nearly killed yourself to do it, (likely you're less than 5 hp right now, if you're not already dead, as the enemies will be hitting you too.).    So yes, I'm quite confident in saying using SS Martyr as a primary form of attack is suboptimal. 

So yes, I'm quite confident in saying using SS Martyr as a primary form of attack is suboptimal. 

I don't think anyone would argue that.

The problem is that the notion of losing health to be productive with most heroes is a bad idea, with Fanatic it is a part of the game.  The example I gave of damage stacking with Martyr is when TtE is on Fanatic, at which point divine focus and Chastise are costs that you turn into damage with Martyr.  Martyr's variable damage is its strong point, since it can set you up for a 29 point retribution.

Taking damage just to set up Retribution is in no way optimal, but tanking for your team, shutting down key non-character villain damage sources, and manipulating your HP to get a huge burst from Retribution is awesome.  VS several villains I've seen Fanatic shut down the opposition at the cost of her own health, then set herself up for a retribution before she would die and Aegis saves her.

The problem I have with ignoring that playstyle is that it minimizes the strength of cards like Divine sacrifice, Aegis of Ressurection, and zealous offense, which are all really powerful.

Zealous offense is almost always worth 2 health to keep out each round, yet so many times it doesn't get played because Fanatic can't deal 3 damage right then.  Several times I've heard this when players have Sacrosanct Martyr in hand and could play it first, then keep Offense out by dealing themselves the minimum needed to keep the card out.  The same works for divine focus, it almost gaurantees that Zealous offense stays out.

When I called Sanctifying Strike and Brutal Censure her weakest cards, it's because they don't have the potential to do as much as other cards in her deck.  They replace themselves, but you don't get extra card play on Fanatic, which limits the value of the extra card to be fixing you hand from bad cards, and with the number of really strong cards she has, they are the weakest.  They are good, they just aren't game changers.

I will admit that Divine Focus is worse, it is a pretty sad trade, I forget that it isn't radiant damage, if it was it would be much better.  It works well with TtE and Martyr, but that's getting highly rare considering the cards you need to be going that route anyway.

Things I think people need to remember about Fanatic that they often forget:

1) She has the best heal in the game by far, it's worth thinking of it as more than an emergency plan.

2) Damage dealt to yourself is damage dealt, Zealous offense can be paid for by cards that deal you damge.

3) Use Divine Sacrifice, if it doesn't kill you it's a win, provided you have Aegis or Retribution (both is best)

4) If you die, but set up your team for a win, it's still a win.  (Fanatic's Incaps aren't shabby either)

Burning fanatic isn't always the best option, but if you are smart about it, and recognize the right time to go for it, you will see a wickedly powerful side of her that many people miss.

My friend who burns her in any circumstance still ends with positive results more often than not.  I would go so far as to suggest people try it just to see what happens, you'll learn pretty quickly that it can work well, and it will destroy you if you do it wrong.

If you ever get Sacrifice and Retribution to start the game vs. Iron Legacy, it's a pretty sure win.

There's really nothing you can do to change my "optimal" method of playing Fanatic. As I play her the way I do because of the experiences I have had with her over the last couple of years. At the end of the day, we are still going to have are different method of playing Fanatic. I have my opinion about her and you have yours. The only difference is, you are saying my method is flawed and yours is absolutely the only method that should be used if someone wants to play her "optimally". While I am saying your method is a good way to play her, but I personally feel that the way I typically play her is the best way to use her in most situations.

I don't really think there is an "optimal" way to play any hero. As each hero can provide different jobs and can change the way they play depending on what villain you face.

Not to argue with anyone here, but I think this statement really undervalues Brutal Censure and Sanctifying Strike, particularly considering the amount that Zealous Offense is valued.

Zealous Offense requires 3 damage to stay in play, right?  Sanctifying Strike + Exorcism = 3 damage.  Brutal Censure + Exorcism = 4 damage.  In both cases, BC and SS replace themselves, with the added benefit of being able to target multiple foes and, in the case of SS, get a hit point back.  And, better than Sancrosanct Martyr, they don't cost you anything aside from your play phase.  Yes, SanctMartyr can get you into Zealous Offense mode, but when there are better, lower-cost methods to reach that 3 damage threshold, why would you keep damaging yourself?

Absolutely, the easiest way to hit the 3 damage threshold is Absolution.  But, in a game that features equipment destruction, SS and BC can help keep your ability to control rough targets under your thumb and do it better than Sancrosanct Martyr.

Personally, when I play Fanatic, I tend to shy away from dealing myself damage.  As a high HP target, Fanatic is often among the first (and most often) targeted heroes, and it doesn't take her long to melt those hit points away even as it is.  Are Aegis and Wrathful Retribution great cards?  Of course!  But I'd just as soon stay alive and contribute to the fight with cards like Sanctifying Strike or Smite the Transgressor than try to walk the tightrope of single digit hit points, hoping that I can get an Aegis down before the villains wipe me out.  

The problem using One-shots to keep Zealous Offense out, is you would of needed a method to do 3 damage on the turn of playing Zealous Offense, as it would destroy itself on the same turn you play it. Unless of course you had it played out of turn.

I get what you're saying, which is why I used the words I did:  to keep Zealous Offense out, to stay in play, etc.

I have no disagreement that Sancrosanct Martyr can help you get Zealous Offense Out.  It's just that Sanctified Strike and Brutal Censure provide better methods of keeping it out, if you don't have Absolution yet.

A lot of villains have DR, and it is hard to near impossible to keep Zealous Offense out, if you can make it up without hurting yourself that is sweet, but it isn't always possible.  That's why I find Martyr a great way to keep it out.  With DR of 1 on villain targets you can deal two to yourself, one to a villain and you have your goal.

It's even better when say Dawn gets Anvil and Truth out, as well as battery or hammer.  You aren't punching through that to do three damage, but you can deal it to yourself, and shut down their damage while your team breaks through the reduction.  Also Martyr can break through DR pretty well, it is a high cost, but if it sets up your team to clear other baddies out, it can be worth it.  Chastise and Zealous offense are a sick combo, they shut down three targets from dealing damage, and Chastise gives you two of the three damage you need for Zealous.

I am not arguing that Censure and S. Strike are bad cards they aren't, the point is that they are her weakest cards, not her worst, and that isn't because they are bad cards, but because every other card in her deck has a really strong application in it.

I'm not advising that players go deal themselves five damage every round, use it smartly, and not if you are better off not using it.  If the team needs you to tank highest HP hits and support, then you play differently, the problem I have is that it seems to be a concensus that no one should ever use these abilities that can really help Fanatic dominate a battle when used inteligently.

Ronway, I'm going to side with one point awp puts up: there IS an optimal way to play each hero in each situation, given that the objective is to win by the highest margin possible (and not other objective like win the most fun way). The same way there are cards that are just plain better than others (ie. Thokk vs Brutal Censure) there are better plays considering risk/rewards situation and cards invested. You said you have played her a lot (so does awp) but truth is both of you could have been playing her sub-optimal. So far awp has presented his way of playing her, I haven't read in what yours differs (if it's posted elsewhere). Anyway, assessing what's the right play in one situation is not hard but as a whole there are a lot of variables to consider so it's harder to get a consensus.

Me? I think Fanatic has a lot of situational cards which makes her really hard to assess as a whole for a strategy. Sometimes the card you play is a good or bad choice depending on what cards you'll draw. I agree that her "draw a card" cards are great specially early game (reliable) but also that her more situational cards when working properly are far greater (but less reliable).

I disagree with with. If I play defensively, and keep wasting turns so that Cleansing Downpour heals everyone to max before I deal the final blow, I didn't play in the most optimal way. To me at least, the most optimal play is the fastest way to kill the villain. Once the villain is dead, you can spend as much time as you want healing up, without worrying about innocent people getting hurt.  It is great to play an armor card and end the game with close to max life, but if you wouldn't have died anyways, the optimal play will not be to play the armor card. For me, the game is all about how to kill the villain with the minimum of defensive plays. The only time a defensive play is worth it, is if it will extend the life of a hero (and the game), in order to get in the killing blow. I love trying to figure out if I need to play the armor soon, so that it has a constant effect throughout the game, or if I think I can wait, pound him now, and only play the card if/when I get close to dying. This is what is fun to me, trying to figure this out and create the "optimal" play each turn.

Although, i do happily admit that other people will have a different goal in mind, which would create a different "optimal" play.

NOTE: This has nothing to do with the specifics of the optimal play of Fanatic.

Yep. For me, the optimal play is what is the most fun.

If I see something entertaining and humorous that might not be the best play to kill the villain (and it won't cause my teammates undo hardship, etc.), I'll go for that.

We all have different views on this stuff - as Ronway has pointed out, we don't even agree on if there is an optimal way to play each hero.

Pydro, by 'margin' choose whatever resource you think fits the criteria better: total life, number of turns, Incap heroes, etc. It's really not an issue, the point of that was to stress that there is an optimal way to play given limited objectives, given comparable variables. 'Fun' is not a comparable variable because it's totally subjective, Number of turns or Number of Incap Heroes is not subjective so it can be valued. I think that it can be summed up in win%, so whatever gives higher win% is the way to go but that is a bit broader and harder to analyze objectively.

The way that guarantees highest win% is the one that prevents or nullifies Villain card plays and avoid having negative effects on a balance of Heros vs Villain. Reducing the number of turns of the game pushes toward this so I agree that it's an important consideration. You can conclude then that dealing lots of damage ASAP is a high asset and probably worth the cost of your own HP. Note that this coincides with some characteristics of Legacy which is considered among the strongest Heros (if not the most).

Going back to a previous post, I'd argue that the moment Fanatic draws Aegis the way that gives the highest win% could be making sure Fixer gets Incap so Fanatic can cycle her Aegis and be inmortal if the Villain can't deal with that. But it could as well go the other way since, say, Fixer could make you win one turn earlier (and thus reducing the Villain card play by 1). Now those are things in particular I find highly interesting to discuss. I guess people could read "optimal" in a "Play to win" mentality and not that if they are playing for fun they are playing it wrong.

Fair enough. I mistakenly read that as more life. I agree the optimal play is the one that gives you the highest chance of winning. I look for the optimal play by considering 3 tihngs:

1) The possible actions of your oppenent (either a real one or an AI)

2) The probabilty that each action will occur

3) The consequences of each action

From there, I choose the best action available to me that will give me the highest chance of winning.

EDIT: I wanted to add that in SotM, win percentage isn;t always the goal. There is a lot of theme here, and sometime you play to not have an incapped heroes, or to tell a specific very cool stroy. Within each of these goals, there would still be an optimal play in order to accomplish the goal. I also think that fun can be a goal in this case. Many times, the goal of a game isn't to win, but to have a good time. There are characters whose optimal play based on win percentage is actually very boring. If the reason you are playing is to have fun, then that is your goal, and you would still have an optimal play towards that goal. While it is subjective and not quantifiable, the player always knows which card is more fun for him.

I agree that Optimal should mean giving your team the highest chance to win.

The trouble with that is there are so many different villains and environments and hero teams.

The trouble with optimising Fanatic is she can go in very different directions, depending on the situation.

There are times when the optimal course of action is to take damage that most heroes would want to avoid.  There are times where Fanatic doing this and dying is optimal.  Especially since she has cards that take advantage of her playing at low health.

I'm not going to claim it is "The" optimal way to play, but it is in certain circumstances.  Players of Fanatic will benefit from being able to recognize when that time is, and take advantage of it.

Sacrosanct Martyr isn't a go to damage power, but it does have uses, there are times when Fanatic using Martyr to down a Gene-bound Guard will let ther teammates clear the damage minions that otherwise would deal more than 4 or 5 damage to the team. Using Martyr there is a net gain of health for the team, and likely increases your chance to win.  It is important for players to be able to judge these situations, otherwise they won't use strategies that can help them win.

Fanatic has high starting health, yet she is very well equipped to be the lowest health hero, even more so the more of her ongoing and equips she can get out.  Thinking in terms of health being too good to salf damage leads to players not utilizing Zealous Offense, Divine Sacrifice and Aegis to their full strength, all three are really strong cards, and can swing a match.

So many of Fanatic's cards are situational, Undaunted isn't a great card, but if you are facing Plague Rat (a villain you almost never want to burn against) it is great, as you cn tank an infection easily (If you aren't playing advanced)

One of my absolute favorite combos is TtE on Fanatic with Sacrosanct Martyr, as it allows Divine Focus and Chastise's damage to be radiant, and a sacrosanct Martyr of one damage deals a good chunk back to the enemy.  Add in Zealous offense and undaunted and you will deal yourself from 4 to 14 damage, for a return of 8 to 18 damage to your enemies as well as three targets being unable to deal damage.  That is a lot of cards, but it can happen, and is amazing when it works.

It's a tough way to play, and risky, but the rewards can be great.  I wouldn't write a guide saying this is the way she should be played, but I don't think it should be idnored either.

Agree with your way 3 points.

Sure, but backtrackking a bit we are talking about a strategy guide here, right? I don't think people need a guide on how to have fun. So not making the optimal move towards win% to have more fun from the game is still not playing optimally even if you are still winning. This doesn't mean you shouldn't do it or that you are playing wrong. If the optimal way to play a character is boring it's a flaw from the character IMO but if we are talking about how to make the most out of it, boring or fun doesn't participate.

Btw, I'm also on the camp "Fanatic doesn't need help to reduce her HP" by default when I start a game because I don't play to optimize Incap Heroes, not a fan of the strategy and because she doesn't have a reliable way to get her top-tier cards other than drawing. I did burn her when I figured that the longer the games goes the lower the chances of the heroes of winning like vs Blade, Ennead and Dawn (in my plays). I gauge all cards of "deal yourself damage do something extra this turn" in a similar way: I consider them good when speeding the game is in the Heroes favour.

Precisely.   I guess I should have made clear what I felt that "optimal" meant.   I assumed everyone had a similar definition as I did.   What I meant by optimal is:      Has the highest possible win%,  across an extended number of games, and with fewest possible hero incapacitations.

There are a  few things I'd like to mention before anybody jumps on them.   Firstly, when I say across an extended number of games, what I mean by that is consistency.   For the strategy to be "optimal" it has to work often,  leading to success practically all the time.   It can't depend too much on card draws,  it can't rely on a particular environment, it can't work only against a certian villian, it can't require anybody except Fanatic to be on your team.   I like combos as much as the next guy,  heck, I think I'm even going to add TTE + Focus/SS Martyr/Chastise to the guide,  that's a good one.   But it can't be party of a general strategy,  it requires too many unknowns to work.

Secondly,   I guess not everybody views hero incapacitations as a bad thing.   I do.   Maybe this was an assumption I should have made clear, but when I wrote the guide 2 years ago, there wasn't a whole lot of people begging to differ.  I kept that mentality,  but I suppose not everybody has.  It's one thing to be down and brought back with Aegis,  it's another thing to be down and out.   It's the down and out part that I feel is bad.    To a certain degree, practically everything that it is possible to write in a hero strategy guide only applies when that hero is not incapacitated;  therefore if your hero is incapacitated it largely invalidates the guide.    It's also generally the case that a hero can do more good when on their "active" side.   There might be specific exceptions (Tempest vs Chairman =p )  but again,   I have to write a guide based primarily  on cards that are in Fanatic's deck, not on any combinations with other heroes/villian/environement.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming =p

 Phantaskippy:    Now, in the guide,  I did specifically mention that Sacrosanct Martyr might be a good way to get Zealous Offense out.   It's in the Support section where I talk about Zealous Offense.    I also talked about how amazing Divine Focus is!   Why would you think that its so bad?   I sort of went over it in detail in the guide…    

I think my first post was poorly worded.

It doesn't bother me as in "You should have known better!" but more I wanted to throw it out there so people would think more about it, because it bothers me when people don't even consider a lot of her cards because they cost health.

I like Zealous offense early, because it is so powerful being able to pick two targets each turn, it is a really powerful card that many players dont play because they don't think about dealing themselves damage, with Chastise, Divine Focus and Martyr, there is plenty of first turn cards that let you throw focus second turn and keep it out, I think Zealous offense in Fanatic's deck is one of the strongest cards in the game.  I know you said Martyr could be used to keep it out, but you also said that if you were desperate enough to use Martyr to keep it, you probably don't have time to wait.

It sounds very much like the "any damage is bad" mentality that limits how well people play fanatic.

The problem with that is, you should be weighing the idea of purposfully taking damage to gain benefits anytime you have the cards to do it, waiting till you are desperate is too late, take sacrifices early and use Fanatic's tools to stay in the game, or go out with a bang.  No one wants to incap, but you can save yourself and lose the fight, Fanatic is equipped to be the hero that takes the beating for her team, and the villain is much worse off for it.

I don't like Divine focus because of the cost, when you run out of cards you don't do much.  That's fine if you see the villain is low enough that you can burn your hand and kill him, and the damage to start the villain turn can be a real lifesaver (esp with Voss and forced deployment if you have +damage or Hairtrigger out there, you can kill a nasty one before it acts.  Mostly I find that only with ridiculous +damage is it worth a card.  It might be worth burning your hand down if you have Prayer of Desperation, but you'd lose your turn there.  I guess the main use I could find for it would be to empty your hand to one card so Prayer of desperation would get more cards out and increase your chances of getting retribution.

I say that the weakest cards are the draw cards because a card draw has no tangible benefit, and the production of 1 to 2 damage isn't game changing, they are good cards because they move through the deck, but they aren't strong cards because they don't accomplish much in the fight.  The difference between strong/weak and good/bad is probably why there is confusion here, they are good cards, but they aren't strong cards, Fanatic's deck is full of strong cards, and while her draws aren't weak compared to other heroes decks, they are the weakest in Fanatics.

I understand why you don't include all kinds of alternate and situational strategies in your guide, it is long enough just getting through the basics, I was more interested in starting a discussion than complaining or critisizing, I actually think your guide is very good, one of the better ones.  After my first post I got a little defensive and wasn't really responding to your guide anymore.

Maybe an advanced tactics guide for the different heroes would be good, just to show off all the really cool stuff heroes can do that isn't for most games.

Again, this is just a personal (not technical) definition of Optimal, but...

If I'm alive, with a hand of 4 or more cards, chances are that I'm going to be able to contribute more fully to any given battle than if I was incapacitated.  

Fanatic's incap abilities are:

• One player may play a card now.
• One Hero regains 2 hp.
• Select a Hero.  Increase the next damage dealt by that Hero by 2.

Of those 3, the most likely useful on any given turn is #1, followed likely by #3.  But, if Fanatic's incapacitated, that's all she can do.  

Compare that to her other potential options, through her cards:  Zealous Offense, Holy Nova's healing, ongoing/environment destruction through Consecrated Ground, to say nothing of her numerous damage options.  Being incapacitated removes all of those options.

Generally speaking, I'm going to be able to contribute more to my team while alive than dead.  It's more likely that my team will live, if I'm there to help them actively with multiple options each round rather than the same 3 over and over, to say nothing of acting as an additional villain target.

Fanatic is obviously meant to be a character driven on self-sacrifice--Sancrosanct Martyr, Chastise, Embolden, Divine Sacrifice and more all imply Fanatic giving up hp for the benefit of her team.  That said, burning her down to nothing walks a tenuous tightrope--one villain turn could knock you out of the fight and down to those 3 incap options.  But, I don't usually seek to burn her down any faster than the villains usually do, barring some really necessary utility, such as kicking off a Zealous Offense or redirecting foes that would normally target a low hp Hero.  Not saying that self-damaging options don't have their place, but rather than they have to be used judiciously and that as a "main course", they're a quick way to be out of the game.

You don't consider that a good trade-off? Basically instead of playing your turn, you deal 10 damage (5 cards) to the Villain, take 4 damage and do it again. If it's done again, it would deal another 10 and maybe you can chain another Desperation. That is comparable to the damage Retribution does but without the need to be low on health (you do need a 2 card combo). And if not you can leave in hand whatever is useful, I like the "draw a card" cards to rebuild the hand. Really surprised that you vouch for dealing damage to yourself to deal damage and not to skipping turns to deal damage.

I'm not a big fan of burning your hand to do that damage.  Even the original guide questioned the value at its base damage.  I don't like trading damage for damage, but I do like dealing yourself damage to deal more, or to shut down the villain from dealing more than you take, the only reason to flat burn health on Fanatic is Retribution, which doesn't work well with a card that empties your hand.  Now if you have a huge hand due to TLT or other causes it isn't a bad idea, otherwise I don't see 5 cards being worth 10 damage that you can't target, it just hits the highest HP Villain.  If that target has any reduction Focus becomes 1 card for 1 damage.  With good +damage it is worth it, but even then it is untargettable, and can't take out strategic targets.

Plus, I don't advocate burning health with Martyr just to do the damage, you do it if you need to get through reduction to get a specific bad guy, or to take advantage of already being dealt radiant damage, or to keep Zealous offense out (the main reason I use it).  Even if you just have Martyr and retribution you at least get 2 damage for 1 health, taking damage to prevent damage or to tank for your teammates is smart, because you can turn damage the villain dealt you into damage to them and stay alive with Aegis.  I rend to play Martyr early if there isn't a lot of destruction, just because It can be so valuable in certain circumstances.

Fanatic's strength (in my opinion) isn't her damage, but in how she aggressively shuts down non-character villain targets damage, and with End of days can clear the whole field.  She can also tank with sacrifice and burst with retribution.  The fact that she can do these things and deal damage make her ridiculously powerful.  Even if you just use her damage she is solid, but with her whole kit going she is a goddess of the battlefield, shutting down villains, protecting her friends and bursting down the boss.  If Aegis fails to keep you alive you die, but before that you can dominate the fight, then it is worth the risk, if you get Aegis and stay alive, even better.

Yes, but the added value Divine Focus has is that deals damage before the start of your next turn. Sometimes it matters, most often it doesn't. And the conversion of 1 card -> 2 damage is a base one (see Bunker) it gives use to all the cards you have in hand in one turn instead of having to wait several for them (for a lesser effect). And this doesn't retract from other things you mentioned, like keeping up Zealos Offense. As you mentioned, Desperation does have the nice side effects of digging deeper into your deck to find either Aegies or Retribution or any other good card.

There's been a Lot of times where ill just have nothing useful to play in my hand with Fanatic. Playing Divine Focus and discarding a card or two for extra damage is great. Can really fill holes between finding your strikes and censures. 

See, I find that Prayer of Desperation to be much less useful than pretty much any other card in Fanatic's deck.   

Fanatic is one of those characters that runs on dealing damage; eating her Play and Power phase without dealing any damage is anathama to me.  If she's anywhere close to "default", Prayer of Desperation is only going to pull 2-3 cards.  It's only in the rare occasion where multiple discards have been forced that Prayer of Desperation is worth playing.  It's so situational as to become discard fodder for me 9 times out of 10.

Yes, it could combo well with Divine Focus, but...that's also at the expense of pretty much every other option.  You'd have to either commit to using your hand to fuel Divine Focus or let DF drop in favor of other options.

It's not an amazing card, but I do play it on occaision.   It's not a bad first turn play if you have a weak hand,  because it's basically draw 3 cards.  It's also ok if you manage to play it during somebody else's turn.    It's just a tool to use to get better things.

I'm not saying divine focus isn't ever good, but I definitely prefer other cards.  Bunker as a counter example has much more card draw, and Omnicannon is ideal for bursting over DR, and you pick the target.  If you could pick the target with Divine focus I'd love it, you could clear key minions instead of just hitting the highest health hero.

2-1 damage to card is a somewhat standard burst damage amount, but all the others you pick the target and deal it in one shot, with Divine Focus you spread it out (which is better for +damage, worse for -damage) and Fanatic does not have a card draw engine like Bunker, Haka or Omnitron-X.  She has pertty good card draw, so there are times you could justify using the card, and there are also times where it is your best option.

Where Divine Focus is nice is against decks that her other cards don't work against.  Chastise and Zealous offense, two cards I love, don't work against decks that don't deal a lot of damage from minions, or don't have them.  Spite, Plague Rat, even Apostate and Miss Information, heroes that have no or few damage dealing targets Divine Focus would be much better, as you can discard those cards to focus on the main villain, who will be the highest health.  That's where Divine Focus really shines.  I don't use it as much because I don't play those decks as much.

Divine Focus can be amazing against Spite if he has his damage reduction drug. Zealous offense goes off and takes away his DR and the hero is free to do their full damage.

Yes, I do not consider Divine Focus worth it if it's against a DR of 1. But I see why you don't have much love for it contrasting with your endorsement of Zealous Offense. Still I tend to use Fanatic focus on the boss to wear him down (besides plays like Final Dive) while the rest deal with the minions if possible, similar to what Cowboy does but a lesser extent. It's really a no-brainer to say which one is better suited depending on the type of Villian you are facing.

edit: anyway, back to the "skip your turn to deal damage" I wonder, what are you contrasting that play to? I mean, by playing Desperation I'd assume I'm giving up 2 damage (Exorcism) + 1 card play. So I assume that I have to make up something like 4 damage to make it worth it. Cards like Brutal Censure makes sense to drop to Divine Focuse since it'll deal the damage anyway and it covers the card drawn by Desperation. Similar to her Strike card (but deal extra damage instead of heal). You can make a similar comparison to good but situational cards, like End of Days, Divine Sacrifice, Final Dive, etc. But if you are thinking of having Absolution down and having of Smite the Transgressor, of course it doesn't compare favourably.

back to the "skip your turn to deal damage"

If that is to me, I was alluding to the change in cost from cards to losing a turn, not saying it would be bad.

Since ditching the cards for Divine Focus is undone by Desperation you are dealing whatever you get from Divine Focus at the cost of two card plays and one power.

I'd rate that at about an 8 damage (not statsy, just what I'd want before calling it a win)  So that would definitely be a good play if you have a six card hand with focus and desperation.  It is a hard card for me, I tend to sacrifice HP over cards, and I probably play too cautiously with Divine Focus.  Desperation is a card I will ditch, so if this situation arose I probably discarded Desperation instead of playing it optimally.

I'd much rather give up 2 card plays and a power than deplete my hand by four cards, esp. since I'm always hoping to get retribution and I need the discard for that.

Funny I was hoping to get discussion of Fanatic to get other people to think about playing her more riskily, and I'm finding all kinds of stuff I didn't think about.  I really want to play her like 6-10 times just to test stuff out.

This is a very nice guide to a hero I'm appreciating more today than I usually have.  One nit to pick though:  Prayer of Desperation is not a good play if you have 4 cards in hand, as you could just have skipped your play and power phases, drawn two cards, and kept the Prayer for later use; you're just trading the Prayer for one random card, and that will seldom be worthwhile.  To use the Prayer effectively, you should have at most two other cards in hand, and that can be hard to reach unless you have an ally feeding you card plays or you've run a Divine Focus since your last turn.

If you have 6 cards in hand, and none of them are Divine Focus, any random card is almost certainly going to be better than Prayer of Desperation.

I have to agree with Envisioner here.  There are very few hands of four cards where not one is worth playing.  If you happen to have one, even just throwing out something like Chastise for one round, or Sacrosanct even if you don't plan on using it (unless there is something in the game that does damage based on cards in play)

Fanatic has a ton of good cards, blowing a whole turn to draw two is something I have only done once or twice on Fanatic (when I couldn't do damage, and the cards in hand were worthless in that situation.

Prayer of desperation is best saved for times of desperation, when your hand is depleted due to discards or there really is only one card that will save the team and another hero can let you play it after your turn, just to get a bonus card isn't a great usage.

Honestly if I had a four card hand and they were all no good in that turn, and I determined I wanted new cards, I would rather hold a prayer and draw two, gaining a one card cycle is a miniscule gain, and prayer could be much more useful later.

Caveat:  If you have a card draw engine rolling like TLT then by all mean throw it first turn, because you won't ever need it anyway.

Question for clarification: Are you counting the Prayer of Desperation as one of the 4 cards in hand?

yes, which is why I'm saying the play only nets you a single card swap over a draw two, both end with 6 cards in hand, you are just trading prayer for a different card.

My most fun with Fanatic ever was last night, and it involved running Divine Focus for three full rounds, skipping damage only a couple of times when reduction was in effect.  Start with a nine-card hand, pitch six cards to roast Omnitron for 11, play Prayer to draw four, pitch five more to deal 6, play Prayer, draw six, pitch five more to deal 10.  Magnificent.

This thread needs an update every year or three, right?

Something you never mentioned is that Undaunted doesn’t reduce damage; it prevents damage. That’s important because it means Fanatic can block small irreduccible hits, particularly the ones from Plague Rat’s Infection and his flip-side, assuming you have destroyed the plague locus.