Insights on the Matriarch

I’ve noticed a lot of people saying they are having trouble with the Matriarch… even to the point of not having fun playing against her. Personally I found her to be very difficult at first, but after a bit of practice I’ve learned some things. Now I find her to be challenging (but not impossible by any means), and fun. So for anyone struggling, here are some tips. [All this is for Advanced Mode]

Your Team: Random teams can often have a tough time against the Matriarch, because there is a specific set of things that you are looking for in a hero, and not every hero has that. Most heroes have at least two of these, but some of them (Zero) don’t have any. Ra has only 1. Here’s what you’re looking for.

1. Villain deck control. And not from Infared Eyepiece. Eyepiece is great most of the time, but not against Matriarch because chances are you’ll just find a bird or another bird. No, what you want is to slow matriarch’s card play. Tempest’s Into the Stratosphere is top notch because you can play it on the Mask and then stall her for a turn. Visionary can do the same by digging the Mask out of the trash with Suggestion. Tempest’s is a little better because you don’t have to kill the mask first, and it deals damage to the Villain while you’re at it. Legacy’s takedown is also a nice solution.

2. Target X deals less damage. Primarily this ability will be used on Matriarch and Carrion Fields. You want to reduce the “revenge” damage for killing a bird down to 0 if you can, or down to as low as possible if you can not. Stun bolts are king. Wraith is a super good hero for this reason. Tachyon also fills this role nicely for a while, but once Huginn and Muninn are both out, she can have trouble getting through Matriarch’s DR unless someone is helping her, this puts a stop to the Hypersonic Assault trick that is so useful early game. Fixer could do this with the right cards, but will fall prey to the same dilemma as Tachyon once Huginn/Muninn are in play. Expatriette can do this with liquid nitrogen rounds, but because they are destroyed when used, then unless she also has Speed Loading, you can not do this reliably… so despite having what we want in her deck, Expatriette is not a good choice on this front.

3. A way of dealing damage to all targets… when and only when you want to. This is why AZ’s cold snap does not qualify. Sometimes you want to kill all the birds. A lot of the time… you don’t.

4. Damage reduction. The more heroes with DR, the easier this is. Tempest, Haka, Legacy and even Fanatic will serve nicely. Incidentally, Matriarch is the only villain that I regularly play Undaunted against, as a DR of 1 against 1 damage is actually pretty helpful. With enough DR you can just let the birds attack you.

Some other tips…

1. Know when to kill the birds and when NOT to kill the birds. Look at the total damage you’ll be taking. For example, if Carrion fields is in play, its almost always better to NOT kill birds and let them attack you than do actually kill them. UNLESS, of course, you can reduce the damage from Carrion Fields to 0. [Chastise works here, but it doesn’t work on Matriarch. Same with Zealous Offense]. Once both Huginn and Muninn are out, it gets very hard to make an efficient trade for killing birds. You’ll need to zap Matriarch with some -damage.

2. Try not to rely on Ongoing cards. Primarily you’ll want to play equipment and one-shots. Occasionally an ongoing is very helpful, I’m not saying don’t play them ever. But the fact is that Horrid Cacophony destroys a lot of ongoings all at once, and can frequently wipe out hero Ongoings. If/when you play ongoings, you need to be aware of how easily they can be taken away from you. Only Huginn can destroy equipment cards, and only 1-2 per turn.

3. With that said, there are some ongoings that are extremely useful while they last. Next Evolution is one of them. Calling Psychic lets your other heroes wipe out all the birds with little Revenge damage from Matriarch. Everyone will be reduced to Legacy’s current HP, but that can mean taking a lot less damage than you otherwise would. The ongoings that give DR are also generally worth playing, even if you lose them soon.

4. If I’m understanding this correctly, and I think that I am… a target that is indestructable isn’t necessarily a target that can’t take damage. So knock Huginn/Muninn down to 0 HP, and they will stay in the game… but be instantly killed once they become no longer indestructable: EG, when Matriarch flips.

5. You’re going to want to kill Matriarch before/soon after she flips. Otherwise her healing abilities will make things very tough for you. So wail on the Matriarch when you can, and when she flips go all out.

This is a great guide to The Matriarch! Very well done.

Also:

You are 100% correct.

Of the nine tips you mentioned, Tachyon (The Matriarch’s Nemesis) is only useful for one of them, and only early on in the game.

I’m sorry…but that really sucks. The fact that a hero isn’t able to meaningfully affect her Nemesis throughout the whole game throws all the fun away for me. I’m really hoping Tachyon gets another Nemesis, because a speedster super-scientist being shut down by a goth girl with a mask (who is supposed to feel insignificant because of Tachyon’s success even though The Matriarch can mechanically wipe the floor with her) takes all the heroics out of the game for me.

Is there anything else that Tachyon can do late game other than be an extra +1 for Psychic damage to Heroes punching out Fowl and Hero Ongoing destruction from Horrid Cacophony? Because if there truly isn’t, I don’t know that I want to play The Matriarch ever again.

Tachyon can unload for enormous amounts of damage… Isn’t that what Tachyon does normally?

Yes. Against every villain she deals enormous damage, which is awesome. What about Tachyon makes her special against The Matriarch? Hypersonic Assault is one of the only cards that can wipe the board without The Matriarch whittling down characters. Is she better equipped to fight Huginn and Muninn than other heroes? The Mask? Carrion Fields?

Legacy can stop Baron Blade from drawing cards, and tears apart his minions and devices with Flying Smash. He can prevent damage Blade does when he is flipped and boosts the whole team to remove Blade’s Mobile Defense Platform quickly. Tempest has AoE effects like crazy that clear the board of Voss’s enemies like mad, and his Into the Stratosphere can save the game if used on cards like Gene-Bound Guard and Forced Deployment. There is a lot of synergy between the heroes and villains in these Nemesis duos.

Dealing a lot of damage is appreciated, but what does Tachyon do to help the heroes against her Cohorts, Domain, and Fowl cards, i.e. The Matriarch’s entire deck? She has cards that can AoE, but only one of the two prevents damage being dealt. It just feels like Visionary, Unity, or The Wraith are more her rival than Tachyon is, considering the game changing effects their cards have against The Matriarch’s deck. Tachyon running around the battlefield, generating enough Burst to deal a lot of damage while the other heroes deal with everything The Matriarch is throwing at them for the entire game just doesn’t seem…heroic. It also doesn’t feel like you’re on a team. Tachyon dealing a lot of damage to The Matriarch being the only particularly noteworthy thing mechanically just…well, it reminds me of when Megatron turned into a gun that Starscream fired. Yes, she technically deals the damage, but the team has to pull the trigger for her to pull it off.

Well, in counterpoint, Tachyon has 2 of the things I mentioned. Maybe 1-and-a-half. She can attack all targets at once, and she can make X target do less damage (with Hypersonic). Hypersonic is quite a good card because it can kill all the birds and stop matriarch/carrion fields from doing damage at the same time, and with the speed at which Tachyon draws cards, getting a few of them is usually not a problem. Sonic Vortex and Accellerated Assault also deal damage to all targets (Sonic Vortex may or may not I suppose, depending on how many bursts are in the trash and how many targets there are).

Because of the Nemesis rule, Tachyon can still get at least 1 point of damage through to Matriarch with a Hypersonic Assault with Munin in play, meaning that she’s only really shut down when both Hugin AND Munin are in play. Which sometimes happens very quickly, and sometimes it doesn’t.

And when Matriarch flips Tach is usually in a good spot to deal her a bunch of damage, but like you said, thats kind of what she always does.

Is Tachyon particularly effective against the matriarch? Well, probably not more than Wraith, or Tempest, or Legacy. But she can still do allright. It depends on what you draw. A quick Huginn and Muninn is not going to be good for ANY team, and its especially not good if Tachyon is supposed to be your star player. Beyond that though, she is still good at doing other things that need to be done. Envinronment control, helping heroes draw cards, that sort of thing.

I guess in short I agree that Tachyon is nothing special against her nemesis, the way that Wraith is against hers. But I think you are putting too much faith in Nemesises in general. I often find that Legacy is WORSE against BB because of the nemesis rule, as he doesn’t tend to deal a lot of damage himself. Usually its a little boost to the heroes. But I certainly am not dismayed if a hero is not particularly good against their nemesis (especially if its already a strong hero, like Tach). Sometimes you get the bear… sometimes the bear gets you.

Incidentally, take Legacy on your team, and Tachyon can always get 1 point of damage in to Matriarch with her Hypersonic, assuming you have Galvanize on.

Smoke bombs pretty much eliminates the Carrion Fields issue. Put Twist the Ether on the Matriarch and use Absolute Zero, and you have the game in the bag. I suggest using Bunker, since Ammo Drop with the birds is amazing.

If you have the Matriarch’s revenge taken care of, you can use Demoralize to automatically fuel AZ’s Coolant blast for huge amounts of damage as his power each turn.

Legacy is also nice, as he can use take down to stop the birds and use interception to protect everyone else.

Personally I’d not suggest that strategy. It relies on Twist the Ether and Zero. One of which is an ongoing card and therefore easily destructable, not to mention rare. As for Zero, without that particular combo, he’s not good for much against the Matriarch.

Nor would I suggest demoralize, for the reason that if Twist the Ether gets destroyed and there are still birds to be played, you can take a lot of damage very quickly.

Smoke bombs are very good, as is just about anything from Wraith.

Bunker, again, I’d not suggest. Yes, its fun to draw like 15 cards with Ammo Drop, but after that he’s sort of lackluster. he does have heavy plating, which is good, and can deal global damage, but only with External Combustion. He can be an ok hero against the matriarch because of his card draw and Omnicannon, but I wouldn’t say you need him, or that he’s better than just about anybody else.

The problem I’ve noticed with Bunker against the Matriarch is that, for Bunker to be good in general, you don’t just need cards. You need time. And the Matriarch, as a rule, doesn’t give you that. Though Heavy Plating and Recharge Mode would help.

I suppose aside from mechanics, I find her thematically frustrating. Baron Blade is trying to crash the moon into the Earth, Voss is trying to take over the Earth, Spite is slaughtering all of the inhabitants of Rook City, but The Matriarch? She’s reciting bad poetry and commanding birds to peck at people. Having a speedster genius like Tachyon not be absolutely stellar against a woman wielding common birds just really takes me out of the whole “hero” thing more than anything. Plus, Tachyon’s crowd control with the birds isn’t nearly as useful as consistently as it is with Voss or Dawn or The Organization, considering the sheer number of Fowl cards that get out on the field combined with the revenge damage she inflicts on the party. I understand that she isn’t completely useless against The Matriarch, and I respect that. I’ve just noticed the most effective combos don’t really mention Tachyon in them. From a mechanical standpoint? Not terrible. From a thematic standpoint? Wicked sad.

By the same token, I’m posting in a topic in the Rules and Gameplay board, so that is something to consider. I understand and appreciate your tips and tricks, and I’ll have to give them a try against The Matriarch next time I convince my group to give her a shot again. Who knows? Maybe we’ll even have some fun!

I felt the same way about Matriarch’s theme when I first saw her. With the core villains, you knew what the fight was about and what you were trying to prevent by fighting them. Matriarch doesn’t seem to have a plan, and it’s hard to tell why you’d be fighting her, especially if no one is playing Tachyon.

Plague Rat is the same way. Seems like if you had a “back away slowly and leave him alone” card, the fight wouldn’t last a round.

Well, whatever Plague Rat and Matriarch are up to, I would imagine it involves at the very least, killing innocent civilians. The heroes wouldn’t be worth much if they just let them do that.

Most villains have as their agenda some variation on “Take over/destroy the world.” Does that mean the villains who don’t aren’t worth fighting? I don’t think so. I’m sure comic book history is littered with villains with somewhat lesser goals, who nevertheless need to be brought to justice.

I played a game against the Matriarch earlier today with Argent Adept, Legacy, Nightmist, and Tempest. They were chosen randomly, but they were a fantastic set. What actually happened was that Legacy, Nightmist, and Tempest drew their stall cards, and the Adept supported that with a thrilling Sonata. They stopped the Matriarch’s deck progress cold and simply beat her down. The only turn she played a bunch of cards was the first one.

All else being equal, in what order do you think you should kill the cohorts, the Mask, and the Carrion Fields? You probably don’t have to kill the Carrion Fields if you have Stun Bolt or Hoist Chain or something like that, but the Mask and the cohorts still present a problem. How much of a priority do you place on that versus just sending the damage at the Matriarch?

Well, it depends.

I try to kill the mask first, no matter what.

I also try and wait until both cohorts are out, since they ressurect each other.

I’ve always had smoke bombs, so I never worry about Carrion Fields.

This. Except I don’t always have smoke bombs. It’s really situational. The team has to collectively figure out what they’ve got and what the best way to counter the cohorts and the Carrion Fields on any given turn.

When I play, games tend to take a long time. I want to examine all of the options and try to find the best one.

The thing about waiting for both cohorts to arrive is that they are really hard to damage together. It seems like you might as well make sure that one of them goes down quickly, as long as you can. And well, I play on advanced, so it’s definitely to your benefit to take one down to zero before they both are laughing at you with DR 2.

Well, what I meant by that was this:

Hope Munnin comes out first, and take it down to 1 or 2 HP. DR1 shouldn’t be that hard to deal with.

Then, once Huginn comes out, kill Munnin and then just destroy Huginn, since he won’t have any DR to protect himself.

Or, you could play on advanced, take them both down to 0, and wait for her to flip.

I’m really unsure about the mask.

The absolute best thing you can do with it is pump it into the Stratosphere over and over. Second best is probably killing it and then Suggesting it.

But if those aren’t options, it gets a little more confusing. Darken the Skies brings out the mask up to 3 times. Suppose that you kill the mask whenever you see it. That means (lets be generous and assume you’ve hit the nail on the head and dealt EXACTLY its HP in damage each time) if you kill it 4 times, you’ve dealt 36 damage to the mask. The Matriarch only has 70 hp. That’s like… half of her life. If all that damage was against the Matriarch, you may have won the game already.

OTOH, the mask is certainly disruptive, basically allowing the Matriarch to do twice as many things on her turn. That’s a tough nut to swallow (hah, mixing metaphors ftw).

And sometimes I feel that you actually want the mask out. EG: After Huginn/Muninn hit the field and their HP is low or down to zero, it almost seems beneficial to let the Matriarch burn through her deck so she can flip and you can actually start being effective. But at the same time, you don’t want her going through half her deck when she does flip because then she will heal up for a bunch.

The Matriarch is one of few villains I think Haka actually really shines against.

He can use savage mana to eat the mask and the cohorts, making them useless. He has lots of ongoing cards (3 dominions, intercession, punish the weak) he can play just to be cannon fodder for Horrid Cacophony.

he can also tank with Ta Moko, and deal out minor but consistent damage over the course of the game. Taiaha helps to buff that, too. Then Haka of Battle with Savage Mana can obliterate her when the time is right.

My optimal team for Matriarch is Visionary, Wraith, and Haka. Wraith because she can use Smoke Bombs to negate Carrion Fields and several of the birds, as well as put out lots of damage both concentrated and over several targets. Also stun bolt and throat jab.

Visionary can use Twist the Ether on the Matriarch (and maybe Haka or Wraith), help manage the environment deck, and optionally set all of the birds to “auto-die” mode. She also has lots of non-limited ongoings (again for Cacophony fodder) and can bring back ongoings after they are destroyed as well. With only 3 heroes, Cacophony is a lot easier to manage.

If I need to add a fourth or fifth, I like Legacy, followed by Absolute Zero. Legacy has plenty of ongoing cards as well, and can also shield team mates from danger, increase their damage, heal, and if he uses Lead from the Front with Fortitude and Smoke bombs, he can be at -2 damage from most sources, and -1 from the rest. AZ can, of course, use my (apparently trademarked) Twist the Ether + Coolant Blast trick on the Matriarch for massive damage.

Now, I have a question. Let’s say, we’re playing against the Matriarch on Advanced. Haka has savage mana out and kills Huginn and/or Muninn. Now, of course they are indestructible until she flips, but once she does, they are destroyed. Does he get credit for killing them, since he did the damage that killed them? or do they just die?

The damage dealt by Haka did not destroy them, the Matriarch flipping did, so he doesn’t get the ‘credit’ for it. If it was otherwise you’d have to keep track of who did what damage all the time, in case something lowers Max HP, which would be death by not inflicting damage too and subject to ‘claiming’.

Except we’re usually (admittedly not always) doing damage to the Mask with things that hit multiple targets damage, such as Tempest’s base power, so that’s not totally relevant. :-\

Rabit

If that is the case, then you are not going to kill the mask very quickly. Nor can you make the claim that you “kill the mask first, no matter what” which is what I was responding to.

True. Our group usually just kills it and hopes for the best considering how frustrating it is.

On the subject of the Mask…what exactly does it represent? When it is destroyed, she still inflicts Psychic damage on heroes and still summons bird after bird out of her deck, but the Mask is the thing that causes her to control them? Also…what does her flipping represent? It doesn’t really reflect her running out of Fowl considering her deck gets reloaded with cards when she’s decked. With Blade he flips when the Impulsion Beam is gone, Voss flips to reflect him stepping onto the battlefield after his minions get battered, Dawn flips when she hulks out due to her Citizens biting the dust, Omnitron flips every turn to reflect going from Robot Factory to Rampaging Robot, Spite flips when he is jacked up on drugs, The Chairman flips when he needs to take matters into his own hands when his Bosses get downed, and Plague Rat flips when he’s…well, I’m honestly a little fuzzy on that one as well. When he’s surrounded by ravenous superheroes? Either way, I’m cool with that guy.

Also, flamethrower, I understand what you’re saying about villains. But there is a reason that Superman’s Nemesis isn’t The Riddler. With Tachyon, it just confuses me that The Matriarch is even a blip on her HUD Goggles (cousin or no), much less a full blown Nemesis. We know that Spite slaughters innocent Victims (It’s a straight up mechanic in his deck, after all), Plague Rat infects people and makes them disappear, and The Chairman promotes rampant crime and corruption, but I get the sense that (in the vein that, “sigh,” birds such as magpies like shiny things) The Matriarch is a villain that steals priceless jewels and golden riches rather than kill a bunch of innocent people. She seems more like the kind of person that writes about death rather than inflicting it on someone. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong, but I’d be very surprised if I found out that The Matriarch descended upon Rook City and started tearing flesh off of her victims a shred at a time with a vicious flock of birds. She just seems more like an Adam West Batman villain rather than a Post-Crisis Batman villain, to be honest.

The mask as I understand it is the source of Matriarch’s power. It’s a magic artifact and a Relic. It seems a reasonable conclusion to draw that in the SotM universe, Relics can not truly be destroyed, or at least doing so would be exceedingly difficult and require some means beyond just whacking it with your fists.

They can, however, be temporarily disabled or weakened. This I believe is what destroying a relic in game is actually supposed to represent. Think about Ra. Does he have an entire pile of Staves chilling out at his house? Probably not. More likey he uses up its power, and it possibly disintigrates, but only until he can summon the staff back, with its power restored.

As far as the Matriarch herself. She’s a societal misfit that is rebelling against her family’s wishes. 99.9999% of the time this is a phase that teenagers and young adults go through. But every .00001% of the time it ends in disaster. Like Columbine, or Virginia Tech or I could name half a dozen others. The likelyhood of disaster tends to amp up when somebody discovers they are in a position of power: IE, they have easy acess to a gun, or in Matriarchs case, a magical artifact that can summon Alfred Hitchcock. She wants to gain respect and she’s doing it by using her flock to tear the people of Rook City to shreds. After all, its easier to gain respect through intimidation and violence than it is by being well liked.

It’s entirely possible that the Mask has a mind of its own as well, and perhaps played on Matriarch’s dark desires to fufil its own goals. Cross reference The One Ring and a dozen others.

ah, that made me laugh. Well said.

[quote=““McBehrer””]

ah, that made me laugh. Well said.
[/quote]Prefer that to Salvador Dali.

ANTS! ANTS AND FLOPPY CLOCKS EVERYWHERE!

[quote=““The_Densetsu””]

Wait, you DON’T like that idea? Well, there goes the concept for the next villain. Drat.

That is a reasonable perspective. But I would think that if the Mask was removed from the field (thus temporarily disabled or weakened), she wouldn’t be directing revenge damage at the Heroes. The birds are still summoned (though not AS much), their individual effects still take place at the start of the turn, but if she loses control of the birds, why can she deal Psychic damage? I understand that we can’t just have her do nothing if she loses control of the Mask (though that would probably happen in a comic if that were the case), but I would think the revenge damage would be tied into the Mask rather than as an innate ability of hers.

As far as her killing civilians, I don’t really get that vibe from her. She has the whole “reign with fear and terror” thing going, but she seems like the kind of character that would threaten pain and death rather than outright inflict it. Thus far I haven’t read anything about her ripping people to shreds or going Columbine on her school. I’ve read that she likes shiny things and wants power and respect.

Also, what does her flipping from Ruler of the Flock to Her Avian Majesty reflect thematically? Does anyone know this? I’m quite curious.

I would hazard a guess that they mimicking a flock of birds, swooping down and then back up again to sit on their tree branch, ‘regrouping’ for another swing back down.

Perhaps the control is a lingering or ‘always on’ effect of the mask. But I’m just guessing here.

When you want power and respect and you’re a super-villain. Somebody usually gets hurt. If she wasn’t a legit threat, I doubt the heroes would be going after her.

I believe Matriarch’s mask, like Ra’s staff, has imbued the owner with its power. Losing the object only takes a portion of its power away as most of it has gone into the person. Also guessing the item would be useless to someone else while the current wielder of the power is still alive.

I agree. I imagine she is ambitious enough to use her Fowl to control Rook City and maintain absolute control utilizing the eyes and ears of every bird in the space of a city and beyond. Villains can still be villains while having a moral code or limits. I’m not saying she is or isn’t ripping the skin off of her victims with swarms of birds while she cackles maniacally and watches the world turn to blood, bone, and pigeon poop. I’m just gathering from what I’ve read on her, the artwork of many frightened (but relatively untouched) victims, and her rather campy elements (Lillian Corvus. Corvus is the genus of crows and ravens. “The Undead Poets Society.” The image of her scowling at mall-goers and looking for shiny things.).

I certainly hope she is a threat if the heroes find her worthy of their time and I imagine people get hurt when The Matriarch comes to town, but I don’t get the vibe that she is a Columbine case or a rabid psychopath. I get the sense that she is a self-centered, elitist, damaged little girl who has come across a power far beyond her maturity, and is using it to gain control, power, respect, and wealth. She can be a villain without being terribly fatalistic or violent. It could be something as simple as taking away an entire city’s autonomy.

Not a psycopath?

…lacking empathy, coldheartedness, lacking guilt, egocentricity, superficial charm, manipulativeness, irresponsibility, nonplanfulness, impulsivity, and antisocial behaviors such as parasitic lifestyle and criminality.

check, check, check, check, check, check, unknown, likely not, check, unknown, and check. Seems like Matriarch meets most of the clinical criteria to me.

So she clearly kills people by peeling their skin off with her birds because she is a Columbine case?

Okay. Flaying or psychopathy aside, we agree she’s a credible threat?

I understand the thread has turned more thematic toward Matriarch, but I felt like posting anyhow. It’s been a while.

I was one of those that had found the Matriarch to be the most difficult villain out there, and stubbornly (yet jokingly) stood by it no matter who or what said otherwise (including Christopher himself). But after I sat down with her in a solo game, using Wraith, Haka, and Tempest, I discovered how pitiful she can be when properly controlled. Once you make her stop lashing out at anyone who looks at her birds funny, there is little standing in your way of clearing the field and dealing big damage to the villain herself. Stun Bolts, once again, are villain neutralizers in the best sense, and against The Matriarch, they completely shut her down, making her cohorts and Carrion Fields the only threats remaining. And the Mask. All three (on basic mode) can be eaten by Haka’s Savage Mana with little fuss, and then the heroes just feel like awful people, mercilessly beating on a weeping woman bleeding out on the ground, surrounded by bird droppings and feathers and drips of mascara. Once manipulated, The Matriarch cannot stand against the heroes.

This sort of ties into her thematic discussion as well. The Matriarch is a confused and frustrated girl with illusions of grandeur that makes her feel as if she has the right to whatever she desires at the moment. From her looks, I can assume that she can easily manipulate people into following her orders, whether through seduction or intimidation. But, it is also not too hard to turn her plans astray by simply adding something new to the mix that would make her want that more. The one who manipulates is easily manipulated.

I personally think that makes a lot of sense considering what I’ve read on her.

And yes, flamethrower, I believe that if the heroes consider her a threat, she is most likely a threat. I still don’t find her to be a terribly compelling villain, but I imagine she brings big trouble to Rook City when she’s done writing sad poetry for the day. I just didn’t understand where the whole “Columbine case” thing came from.

As for the mechanical side of her, my group and I played her the other night. She got three or four fowl out over the course of three turns. She kept drawing her One-Shots and we consistently destroyed the Mask before her turn came up. By the time she got a few more Fowl out and one of her Cohorts (Ongoing/Equipment destruction; I do not have the cards in front of me) we hit her hard and fast and she dropped to zero hit points. She is quite manageable when she’s only playing one card per turn.

because I brought it up as an example of a pair of social misfits who turned to violence. That’s where the comparison was supposed to end. We don’t have to talk about it anymore =p.

We won our first non-three-hero game vs. Matriarch this past week partially thanks to me getting two of these in my opening hand. Certainly a difference maker! It also helped that she whiffed on both a Horrid Cacophony (first card played!) and a Darken the Skies (she played the first one, then some Fowl… then the second one) and both Cohorts were deep enough in the deck that we could delay their destruction until the flip.

How does Smoke Bombs take care of Carrion Fields, say in a 4 player game?

This combo.came up a few times in various threads and here is as good a place to clarify it than any.

Well, carrion fields targets all but the highest I believe (not looking at my deck right now, forgive me if thats not right).

The good thing about smoke bombs is it tends to equalize hp. So lets assume that everyone is at equal hp. Say… 25.

A bird is killed.
Matriarch deals 2 damage to the highest. We’ll call that Hero A. Hero A is now at 23. Heroes B, C, and D are at 25.

So lets calculate carrion fields. It attacks hero A, smoke bombs redirects to D at -1 damage, D takes no damage.
Carrion Fields attacks hero B, smoke bombs redirects to D for 0 damage. Ditto for C.

Hero D gets attacked, redirect to hero C for 0 damage.

This occours when the heroes are very close to each other in hp. Though this sounds like it wouldn’t happen too often, play a few games with smoke bombs and you’ll see that hero HP tends to stay very even.

My Smoke Bomb reads - Whenever a Villain card would damage the Hero with the lowest HP, redirect that damage to the Hero target with the highest HP. Reduce damage redirected this way by 1.

So in your example, A at 23, B, C, D at 25. Carrion Fields attacks all but the highest. Let’s call D the highest. So A, B, C is attacked.

Resolve A first. A is the lowest HP, hence Smoke Bombs activate, redirect to D and -1 dmg, so 0 to D.

Resolve B. B is not the lowest HP, B takes the hit.

Resolve C. C is not the lowest HP, C takes the hit.

So Smoke Bombs only negated 1 point of dmg.

i.e. With Smoke Bombs, final result is A 23, B 24, C 24, D 25.

Without Smoke Bombs, final result will be A 22, B 24, C 24, D25.

Is this correct?

If so, Smoke Bombs isn’t really that useful against Carrion Fields, IMO.

Take it a step further, and think about what happens when they all hit 23 hit points.

Well, if one of the heroes has a DR of even 1, then ALL of the Matriarch’s damage would be neutralized.

Let’s say, Haka with Ta Moko, Wraith and 2 others. They are all at 25.

Matriarch attacks Haka, because he has the highest. He also has the lowest, so it redirects to himself (still the highest) and -1. -1 again for Ta Moko. That’s 0. Then Carrion Fields does the same thing 3 more times.

Take it ANOTHER step further, and have Legacy with Lead from the Front. Even if it targets the highest, or they all aren’t perfectly even, he can redirect it to himself, who is at the lowest. Then it redirects to Haka for -1 damage. That way Carrion Fields is still neutralized.

If you Stun Bolt the Matriarch, she won’t make the heroes uneven, either.

So, Smoke Bombs works best when more than 1 hero is tied for lowest HP?

And having Smoke Bombs in play tends to make heroes all have even HP, hence increasing the possibility of creating situations where more than 1 hero is tied for lowest HP?

In other words, the longer Smoke Bombs stays in play, the most powerful it becomes?

The longer it’s out, the more the smoke fills the environment. And the Heroes have a supergal packing an Infrared Eye-Piece. Villains beware!

…

yes.

McBehrer, that post adds nothing to the conversation and seems to imply that you think the responders and OP are stupid. Please knock it off.

… What? You asked a question. If you didn’t want an answer, then you shouldn’t have put a ? at the end.

You said “are these statements correct?” to which I responded with “yes, they are.”

I said absolutely nothing to imply anything about anyone’s intelligence.

I still think Smokes Bombs is pretty situational. It depends on heroes being tied for lowest HP. Guess I’ll try it out on Matriarch the next time and see how it works out.

First, I didn’t ask a question, that was someone else. Second, someone had already answered that question satisfactorily, so a one word answer adding nothing is not necessary. Third, the ellipsis that you used means taking a break before answering the question, as though you think it is obvious and therefore need to steel yourself before answering. If that was not the intent, I apologize, but ask you to be more careful with your word and phrasing choices in the future because I cannot see how else you might have meant it.

My phrasing is fine. Your reading comprehension is what needs improvement.

There have been multiple instances in which someone has asked a question, and it has been answered multiple times. Just because one person answers doesn’t mean no one else is allowed to.

The ellipsis was there to indicate that, since multiple, very specific questions were asked, I had to take a few seconds to think about what questions were being asked.

And if you didn’t ask the questions, then I wasn’t talking to you, which means me ANSWERING them is none of your business anyway!

I’ve always felt the Smoke Bombs were useful in any situation, purely because they slow the lowest HP hero in their decent to 0 and they reduce the damage the heroes take as a whole. In some situations they truly shine, but in general they are usually worth playing. (And yeah, the way they bring everyone to the same HP so they work even better is just wonderful! 8) )

First, everyone please stop. dragonlordged’s interpretation was not flawed - it was simply one of many ways in which the ellipsis could be interpreted. It’s the nature of text communications - things often do not come across as intended. It’s easy enough for the two views to be resolved by saying what was understood and what was intended - the the accusations and insults are not productive nor useful.

We all need to be respectful and polite on this site, or we’re going to end up with ugly situations (like this) that drive people away from the game we all love and the community we want to grow around it. I don’t think any of us want that. :-\

Rabit

Yes, I realize I can often come across as abrasive, but there is no need to jump down someone’s throat because you misinterpreted. Just… ask, next time?

(Also, one of my typing quirks is the tendency to use a lot of ellipses and semicolons. Most of the time it is just to put forth a more accurate representation of my pacing, were I saying it out loud.)

Well, sorry for misinterpreting what you said, then.

Played first game against Matriarch last night. It was a slaughter, she never had a chance.

Alt. Wraith, Expatriette, Young Legacy and Absolute Zero.

First turn, Alt Wraith stun bombed her, Expatriette SMGed the fowl and Young Legacy made her not draw cards.

Second turn, Wraith boost her projectile damage while keeping Matriarch low, Expatriette play her ongoing that kill fowl as they appear, Young Legacy boost hero damage.

Third turn, lets say Young Legacy one more play the card that doest allow Matriarch to draw his deck.

Fourth turn, Absolute Zero deal himself 18 damage fire to do her 19 damage cold and the win.

No cohort helped a lot, the trash was back to play 2 times with the one shot, but instantly dispatched for the fowl (and quickly for the Mask that never had time to proc after the first vilain turn). The hero combination was overwhelming for the poor Matriarch and the initial card draw was very good too. I can hardly of a more perfect hero set to kill her, except perhaps switching Absolute Zero for Haka to keep her cards out of the trash.

Oh, boy. You had to go and ressurect THIS thread. This is embarrassing.

Well, I dont like to open a new thread if there is an existing thread related, so I do a search on Matriarch and pick up the first one that seems related :p

What is the trouble with this one ?

Probably all the fighting between McBehrer and others.

Duh, I didn't read all the way to page 2 before posting :p

Me being an ass, that's what.

Don't worry, McBehrer. The Matriarch puts everyone in a bad mood.

Going back to an earlier post its not The Matriarch that puts everyone in a bad mood, its the mask

I love Tachyon against the Matriarch, she has the ability to hypersonic assault as previously stated, AND using lightspeed barage is a great way to one shot the cohorts even with DR.  Or whatever else you need killed fast.  If you play Team Leader, she also helps everyone else get set up faster and that is quite important as well.

Now my question is, does that hypersonic assault trick work?  On here people seem to be using it.  I asked that question a while ago and never got an official ruling so we have not played it that way since.  The question being does she kill the birds before the "Can't do damage" part kicks in.

I've played it as yes, once you Hypersonic Assault someone they can't deal you damage even if they get a retaliatory strike - did it earlier against Balde when he had a Backlash Field out.

On the subject of the Matriarch, we had a pretty epic game against her at the weekend - we decided to try the game I'd been wanting to play for some time now and fought her in the Final Wasteland. First environment card to come out - a Skunk Ape. Second card? Ahhh yeah - Unforgiving Wasteland! Then I think we had Con's Bunker, and even the Library made an appearance later on. By the end of the game, Lilian's deck consisted of both Horrid Cacophonies, all three Darken the Skies, and one lonely Carrion Fields that one of us decided we may as well kill since it was absolutely no threat by that point. Suffice to say, we kinda won :D.

Just won a game against The Matriarch in The Final Wasteland. Victory had nothing to do with Unforgiving Wasteland. It was mostly a matter of Dark Visionary drawing both of her Twist the Ethers early on, and having Absolute Zero (with Coolant Blast!) in the same game. Liberal use of Turmoil on the Environment deck meant that we could make sure to kill The Mask every turn.

Frequent lurker here coming out to say thanks for the tips.  I lost to the Matriarch the first 4 or 5 times I played against her.  Knowing that a whole lot of birds were going to show up, I tried playing decks with multiple-foe damage like Tempest and Tachyon, and when we lost with those, I tried Rook City heroes (Fixer, ExPat).  Finally we won when I played with Haka, on a team with Wraith and Tachyon.

However, I think the key was our environment.  If someone reading still has yet to beat the bird lady and just wants a fighting chance, I humbly suggest following your tips, and also fighting Matriarch in the Final Wasteland.  Usually environments are afterthoughts for us, but after losing with so many different combinations in Rook City and Realm of Discord, we specifically chose FW, since several of the creatures in that deck damage lowest-level targets (birds).  Also... and here's the real bonus... there is a card that will give the heroes 1 HP every turn (Con's Bunker), and Unforgiving Wasteland, which REMOVES from the game any cards destroyed by environment cards.  You can see where this is going.

It actually took quite awhile to get Smoke Bombs out, so we kept the birds at bay the first 4 or 5 turns with Throwing Knives and Hypersonic/Accelerated Assaults, kept revenge damage down with Ta Moko, and took a few hits along the way, until those 2 environment cards came out.  Con's Bunker makes you draw an extra environment card if you want to keep it in play, but Wraith had a couple of Grappling Hooks, so whatever we didn't like we got rid of, and once Unforgiving Wasteland came out, we chipped away at Huginn, Muninn, and the Mask, until the Jersey Devils, Chupacabras, and Apes removed them from the game for good.  Even after Matriarch's card flipped, Darken The Skies and Horrid Cacophony didn't do much, because many of the birds, the Mask, and Cohorts were either removed from the game or held captive by Haka's Savage Mana.  By then the Smoke Bombs were doing their thing until Lightspeed Barrage showed up for about 15 damage and ended it.

Based on how their decks affect each other, I think Tachyon and Wraith could switch their nemeses and still be just fine thematically, with Matriarch being a wannabe society-type set against trust-funded Wraith, and Tachyon being a scientist paired with the chemical-freak Spite, but that's a different topic.  Anyway, thanks for the tips.  Just wanted to throw the Environment aspect out there if anyone is still struggling with different combinations of heroes against Matriarch.

If you have the Scholar he can tank the Matriarch with Flesh to Iron, Mr. Fixer with Driving Mantis is also really powerful, he can crush Matriarch pretty fast.

We had a game where Matriarch got a slew of fowl to start, but Fixer had Mantis and Expat had her SMG, it wasn't pretty for Matriarch that game.  Frost rounds and hoist chain sealed the deal when the cohorts came out.  Fixer Expat Tach and DVisionary was the team, DVisionary mostly locked down the environment deck, the others owned the fowl while Mr Fixer kept asking why she was punching herself.

As for the discussion on the character of Matriarch, I love the estranged sibling jealousy angle.  Matriatch is going to come after Tachyon, and anyone else she thinks hurt her, I also see her as a bi-polar personality, one side that believes she is superior and must be obeyed and loved, and another that is spiteful, insecure and petty.  Ruler of the flock healing from her birds makes sense to me, as the more birds arrive the less worried/insecure she becomes, her overconfidence of Her Avian Majesty, gone she goes after the weakest enemy she finds, and she sends her cohorts into the fray.  It's only after she throws everything at the heroes and fails to defeat them that she really takes stock of the fight, almost like she doesn't belive she can lose until she flips.  After seeing her cohorts likely get beat down, but regaining her own strength, she reverts back, and goes offensive from afar.

The mask has power, but its loss would be more disconcerting than debilitating, throwing off her concentration, thus reducing her control over the birds.

Driving Mantis is first time each turn. So it will only work for the first Fowl if you are clearing the Fowls by SMG.

Gah, you are correct.  I never really looked closely at that card.  Our Fixer fan will be sad.

I have a question about the Matriarch which I can't find the answer to.  When Unkindness of Ravens deals damage, does it "lock in" the affected targets prior to dealing the damage?  Or does the affected-heroes list shift as HP totals change while you work your way through the damage?  EG in a 3-hero game which starts with everyone on full health, we have Scholar (29), Absolute Zero (29), and Expatriette (29).  If Unkindness tries to damage every hero except the lowest, and you hit Scholar first, Scholar immediately becomes lowest, so would the Unkindness hit both of the others?  Or does it always damage two heroes and ignore the one that was lowest when it started?

I always identify the lowest first, then have them damage all the others.  I never really considered the alternative before, but it seems like it would create weird results.  What will really challenge this is if we ever get a combo which can bring out new hero targets while it is dealing the damage.  I can't think of any such combo yet though.

The first time The Ultimate Target deals damage each turn, Chrono-Ranger may use a power.  That's all I got for now.  If he could somehow give that power to Unity, or give it to Argent Adept who Performs a Subdominant to give acard play to Unity, then we'd be in business.

If everyone is tied for health the players decide the order of health, so in the instance given you would assign the role of lowest health to one hero and the others would take the damage.

Once scholar took damage he could not take the role of lowest health, since the ability doesn't hit the lowest health hero.

If there was a way to add a hero target mid resolution of that effect, the new ones would be hit I believe, but that is a whole bag of worms that hasn't been opened yet.

But if you then hit Zero, you're assigning Expat the "lowest health" distinction, even though she actually has the HIGHEST health during the resolution.

Not that I really want to turn the Ravens into a functional copy of the Jackdaws in this situation, mind…I'm just wanting to be sure this situation is fully explored.  The idea of "locking in" the targeting makes more sense to me than your explanation, but contradicts how other cards work, so the Melvin in me is puttering around arguing with himself now.)

Choose the targets. Then deal your damage. This might be a case of overthinking a simple thing. If you want to think of it as "locking in", it probably would be appropriate in this case.

I really dislike the term "overthinking", or calling rules questions "simple". What's simple to one person is not to another. What you propose seems reaonable, but I also cannot see how it's compatible with previous rulings on target selection.

I did not mean that as a slight. Sorry if it came off that way. But lets be honest, we all tend to overthink rules and stuff at some point. I am as guilty as anyone and I'll be the first to admit it.

Edit: Post edited due to mod request. Post also now bolded for greater relevance.

Except when he dislikes being referred to by racial slurs.

Actually, it's not a racial slur - contrary to popular belief.

Honestly I never knew It had any connotation beside "call it what it is". Never heard it used that way. 

Didn't figure you did, Foote - don't stress it.

It's one of those (many) topics where some folks have never heard of anything that makes the topic an issue, some folks have been told things are a certain way that isn't true, and some folks have learned the truth. We try to help folks (and ourselves) get into that latter category whenever possible.  

Did you even read that article before linking it?  Toward the end, it explains how "spade" has evolved into a racial slur within the past century.  It may have been innocent once, but as soon as more than a handful of people had used it insultingly, it became an insult.  Just like how the swastika was once a mystical protection symbol, but will never ever be safely usable in that context again, at least not for quite a great number of years (depending on how much the future generations dwell on their troubled past).

Well, it is a racial slur when you call a person that, but it isn't when used in the context of that expression.

Not only did I read it, I comprehended it.

The antagonism is unnecessary, Envisioner.

Yes, as Katsue stated, "spade" became a racial slur, but the term "call a spade a spade", however, did not originate as a racial slur, and is usually not intended as one when used in appropriate context (as was the case, here).

And this is us trying to help move people past the perception "calling a spade a spade" is an racially-charged comment.

The post had no malicious intent - there wasn't even knowledge of the racial aspects of the statement - so it does no good for us to continue accusing. Education is beneficial, and that has happened.

Let's drop this and go back to the purpose of the thread.

It was more like incredulity.  When in doubt, assume nothing I say is ever personal; after all, I don't know any of you personally.

Then please take this as feedback – it came across to me as antagonism.

It is not the readers responsibility to interperet your words correctly. Thats not how communication has ever worked. The onus should be (and it is) on you to communicate in a more effective manner.

The Sentinels take a lot of the sting out of the Matriarch if Mainstay can continually reduce damage to everyone.

Unfortunately, Block only works on the Sentinels themselves.  It's still super-useful against her flip side and Carrion Fields, though.

But Human Shield helps everyone!

Unfortunately, Block only works on the Sentinels themselves. It’s still super-useful against her flip side and Carrion Fields, though.[/quote]
But Human Shield helps everyone![/quote]
It’s even funnier if he’s absorbing damage from someone who already has armor to reduce it. I suspect the rules don’t actually work that way, but I’ve been rolling it that way anyway just for the laughs.

Even with the Sentinels on the team, though, I refuse to go up against her unless Haka or the Visionary is on the team to make sure her mask is either buried or unavailable, and I prefer Visionary, since she’s more likely to get the card she needs and her method of burying it isn’t subject to destruction of ongoings.

If damage is being dealt to a target who has soak but then redirected to someone without soak, the damage goes back up again. So for example, if Legacy has Fortitude and is being hit for two points of damage but the Scholar has Alchemical Redirection out (and no Flesh-to-Iron, so no soak), the damage would be reduced against Legacy but as it is redirected it goes back up again and the Scholar is hit for both points.