Completionist Guise + Skyscraper

Can Completionist Guise’s power be used to change Skyscrapers size by choosing a variant of a different size than her current size?

Yes, he could switch her to a variant card of any size.  

I disagree.

He could swap to a variant but not to a different size.

Nor could he change Sky-Scraper to a different size in the same variant.

I don't see why not.   The text for Completionist Guise only lists switching to a variant and any size of her variant is still Sky-Scraper. 

By that logic Guise can swap out a Sentinel to a "full deck" version of their character, or incap someone instantly.

I'm not sure how that is the logical conclusion. The Void Guard are not variants of The Sentinels. They are Individual heros with their own decks. Instant incap on the other hand is an interesting possiblity except the incap side doesn't have the name of the hero and does not have a power for Guise to use.

Completionist Guise's power doesn't say anything about keywords like Normal, Huge, Tiny etc.

Completionist Guise can switch Paul Parsons to Paulina Parsons, so I don't see why he couldn't switch Sky-Scraper from Tiny to Huge.

To be honest there are a few open questions about how the Sentinels and Void Guard work.   In regards to this I would say no only because it's a hero for a completely different deck but for Sky-Scraper regardless of the size keyword is still associated to the same deck.  

I'm of the opinion that Sky-Scraper's different sizes are not variants of Sky-Scraper, at least not in the sense that Completionist Guise refers to.  All three cards are required to play her and all three represent her.  You aren't playing a different Sky-Scraper when you're Huge or Tiny, you're still playing the same character.

I wasn't talking about the same version.   I'm talking about going from Sky-Scraper(normal) to Extremist Sky-Scraper(Huge) as that is switching to a variant.

I personally would not allow size-changing, but I'd probably permit her switching from Sky-Scraper(standard, Huge) to Sky-Scraper(extremist, Huge), while leaving her other size-cards from the other sets. Same with changing just ONE Sentinel from the Sentinels (so changing out to Adamant Doc Medico, leaving the rest standard).

It might be weird, but their decks - due to complication - have less variants. Gives them more versatility.

That said, if ruled that ALL the Sentinels (the single team deck, not individual new versions) or ALL Sky-Scraper switch when any of their cards are switched, I'd totally understand that ruling and live with it.

Does anyone have the exact text of the card handy? I like Bowie's interpretation (Huge Extremist Sky-Scraper is a variant of Huge standard Sky-Scraper, but not a variant of Normal standard Sky-Scraper, and similarly for the Sentinels), but would like to back it up textually.

Extremist Sky-Scraper (normal) is a variant of Sky-Scraper (normal).

Extremist Sky-Scraper (huge) is a variant of Sky-Scraper (huge).

Extremist Sky-Scraper (tiny) is a variant of Sky-Scraper (tiny).

Extremist Sky Scraper (tiny) is not a variant of Sky-Scraper (huge) or Sky-Scraper (normal).

Just like the Mad Bomber Blade gameplay text character card isn't a variant of the Baron Blade image character card.

Similarly you could not switch out the Sentinels' set up character card, because it does not have a variant.

In a related ruling, I would assume that you would not switch one version of a variant card for the same one with different card art. (Swapping foils with non-foils, or original promo variants with ones from the hero pack.)

Then again, this is Completionist Guise. He may want to collect all the covers.

I'll also be curious to see how the video game implements Completionist Guise swapping for Sky-Scraper and The Sentinels, both if it's a valid option to replace partial sets instead of the whole thing (example: when you replace a Sentinel with Adamant Sentinel, do all of the characters get replaced?) and if it's a valid target to replace Sentinels with their Void Guard hero character cards (I'm assuming not, but we'll see how it goes)

this is the power text:

Replace a hero character card in play with a variant of that hero. Put the replaced card safely under this card. Either use the power on the replaced card (treating any hero name on that card as "Guise") or Guise deals 1 target 2 psychic damage.

I asked this one during playtesting. Christopher said no, that the same variant with different card art count as the same variant (and can't replace each other).

What about Kvothe and not-Kvothe?  Are they the same?

Personally I'd say different because while the power wording is the the same the title and power name are not. 

I don't know if it's been asked anywhere else but while I'm thinking about it; can you then put the card under Guise back into play at a later point using his power to swap it with the current character card?

Yes.  You can switch out a character card under Completionist Guise but once you switch Guise's character card you are stuck with the variants on the table.  

This. I completely agree, phantaskippy. It might be easier to look at the intention of things, here.

But then again, we can do whatever we want – it's not like this is a competitive game!

I think the intention is that they are the same, and should be treated as such for purposes like this – that this is just a way for folks who didn't get Kvothe to still have the card. They power and HP are the same, afterall. But that's just me…

I thought this came up during playtesting and yes, that it can be done. Anyone else remember differently?

I can't imagine them letting you swap a normal for a huge, at that point Scraper has no normal and two huge cards, which wrecks her design.

That makes sense.  I was thinking more along the lines that once you switched to a variant you kind of switched to all of them and this could pick a particular size.  

Yes, that was the rule.

I guess until Handelabra gets around to implementing this variant of guise in the game we wont get an official ruling on this. I can see multiple arguments for and against being correct.

It would be great if GTG took a page from Pinnacle(Savage Worlds creators) for rules questions where they have a dedicated forum where only 1 person, their in house rules lawyer, posts an official response to each question asked.

The discussion is great, it can just be a little frustrating not knowing the official ruling.

We were getting official rulings long before Handelabra was providing them. The problem is that GtG isn’t big enough for any of their staff to have the time to constantly monitor the rules forum.

I think it's also the case that some of the issues are tricky to deal with consistently, and they weren't forced to make consistent decisions until the video game came along. Fortunately the co-op nature of the game helps here.

Thanks, all! I figured that was the answer but didn't know if it went against the theme of the variant and so was 'wrong'.

One official ruling is that "hero" is shorthand for "hero character card."  And with that change: "Replace a hero character card in play with a variant of that hero character card," it sure seems a lot more clear that you're meant to stay the same size--although it also suggests that you can use this to mix and match Skyscraper's variants.

Of course, then you also get awesomeness like "Guise deals each target 2 sonic damage and switches to her Normal character card."  Which is easy to resolve, you just can't follow the second clause, but it's pretty funny anyway.

I think that's only for the non-tabletop version of the game. If "Hero" means "Hero Character Card" you run into issues concerning Plague Rat trying to Infect the Sentinels ;).

Right, so the Sentinels are four Hero Character Cards but one Hero :).

Bringing this conversation back to sky-scraper, in my personal interpretation of the rules I have come to a few conclusions:

switching character cards

many of sky-scraper’s powers say to switch to a particular character card. switching character cards does not involve removing a card from play, nor does it involve destroying a card. you can never have more than one of her character cards in play at the same time. sky-scraper’s hp does not change when she switches character cards.

-Spiffs Rules & Clarifications

From my reading of this I believe that sky-scraper should not be treated as 3 cards but rather 1 card with 6 sides (3 of which are the incapacitated sides) because she behaves in the same way to a villain flipping, i.e., her hp doesn't change, no cards have entered or left play and her card text has changed. It's impossible to have a single card with six sides so she is instead 3 cardboard entities which represent 1 card.

From there I conclude that when swapping her variant and herself around with guise, the first time you swap her variant in she should be forced to change to normal sized variant as that is how her card enters play at the start of the game (see chairman being played from his own deck) but thereafter she must change to the card under guise as putting a second skyscraper card into play is impossible. That said, this is just how I'd play it out until an official ruling is passed down from on high.

She has 3 character cards.  2 of them are in imaginary stasis land until summoned.  They aren't in or out of play, they just aren't.  Then you switch her active character card to a different card.  Doesn't leave play, doesn't enter play, her character card just magically changes to a different card, through the mystical powers of switch.

You don't default to the way you started the game when Guise replaces your character card with a variant of that card.

Whatever size Sky-Scraper's card is at the moment he replaces it would determine the size her varaint card replacing it would be.

Guise isn't switching character cards that aren't in play for variants of those cards, if he could do that you could use any hero card in the box.  You swap the card in play with a variant of that card.  Normal Sky-Scraper is not a variant of Extremist Huge Sky-Scraper, it is a variant of Extremist Normal Sky-Scraper.

It works like that because Normal Sky-Scraper isn't a variant of Huge Sky-Scraper.  Sky-Scraper is 3 character cards, but only one at a time.  Just like you wouldn't swap all 4 Sentinels if you used Guise's power.  You would choose one of the character cards in play and swap that card for a variant of that hero character card.

I'm willing to concede that she may not have to be switched to the normal size the first time, but with the rules you've described it is possible to end up with 2 of her sizes in play at once, by say, swapping out her normal sized card switching her to giant and swapping that out. Because the cards under guise are still in play (his card does not state otherwise) you are in a sense overruling a previous ruling or declaring that once you swap her out she must be that size again before reswapping with guise.

Also I'll point out that her size is not part of her name. It is a keyword. Just like how Skinwalker Gloomweaver loses the keyword "zombie" when he flips, she gains and loses a keyword when she switches.

The reason I said to treat her like a single character card is because of the ruling that states "you can never have more than one of her character cards in play at the same time." I believe this mechanically causes her to behave almost exactly like a villain character flipping (besides efects that happen on flip like health restoration) although physically you need to swap a card for another because they only have 2 sides, not 6.

I feel like I need to conclude this but can't so I'll just leave this as is.

You can switch the card in play with a variant of that card.  That would not let you switch a normal sky-scraper under Guise for a Huge Sky Scraper in play.  Because the normal card under Guise isn't a variant of huge sky-scraper.

Guise can get up to three character cards of Sky-Scraper's under his card. he just has to replace each one individually with their variant.

Cards under Guise being in play doesn't even apply here, because if that is a problem it is a problem with literally every single hero in the game.  They also are not counted as being in play, or at least not treated as being a character card, or a card from your deck because they do not add to the count of cards you have in play.

Would Fixed Point prevent Completionist Guise from using his power to switch people's character cards, then, since they technically are attempting to leave play when he "collects" them?

I would say not in the same way I wouldn't prevent Sky-Scraper changing size because of it.

Is that right? It was my understanding that the heroes DO count as a card in play, and that specifically The Southwest Sentinels will almost always be the hero with the "most cards in play".

The Sentinels count as having five cards in play from the start with the four heroes and the setup card.  Other heroes count as having one card in play for their character card.  

That I did not know. Been playing it wrong for years now.

As for Skyscraper: while I can understand the argument against switching her size, I don't agree with it. Keywords are not part of a character's name, they are just tags for effects to trigger off of. Skyscraper is not Skyscraper-Huge or Skyscraper-Tiny, she is just Skyscraper. Extremist Skyscraper is a variant of Skyscraper regardless of keywords. Since Guise allows you to select a variant of an existing character you get to pick whichever one of those 3 cards you wish because they are all variants of Skyscraper.

Of course I've been wrong before and won't be mad if I'm wrong now. And since we don't have an official ruling and won't really until Completionist Guise makes his way to the video game (which won't be until after Oblivaeon and all other variants are in there) I'd say play it how you feel is right.

You don't select a hero, you select a hero character card.  You can't just take any three of the six Sky-Scraper cards and play her deck.  You have to have a Normal, a Tiny and a Huge.  If you replace an active Huge card with a variant tiny card Sky-Scraper now has 2 tiny and a normal.  Sky-Scraper is not intended to play like that, and her deck doesn't work right that way.

I can't imagine Christopher ruling that.

Still, "hero" and "hero character card" are considered synonymous per Christopher.  Unless there's a more recent, contradictory ruling that I don't know about?

Not necessarily true.  When you're instructed to change her size, nothing says where her new card has to come from.  It could come from under Guise just as well as it could come from the usual not-in-play-but-not-out-of-play limbo they usually come from.

Since "variant" isn't an official game term, I don't see any resolution to this other than Christopher answering it.

Okay here's a list of questions that I think if you can answer you can have a homebrewed ruling (and if Christopher answers these we'll have an official ruling):

1.a. Do regular Sky-Scraper character cards always swap to regular Sky-Scraper cards? i.e. b. is there some sequence of events that causes explosive reveal to switch regular tiny Sky-Scraper to extremely normal Sky-Scraper? If so describe it. (I've implied yes to a. and phantaskippy has stated no, at the beginning of the game you put Sky-Scrapers other sizes into the limbo space and only switch with cards in that space)c. In addition, if you somehow end up with regular N-ormal under Guise can you switch to it from regular Tiny?

2. Exactly which of Sky-Scrapers cards are variants of each other?

2.a. Is regular Tiny a variant of extremely Tiny? (I believe we've all said yes)

2.b. Is regular Tiny a variant of extremely Huge? (I've said yes in order to comply with my answer to question 3 and phantaskippy has said no so that 2 cards of the same size can't end up in the limbo space together)

2.c. Is regular Tiny a variant of regular Huge? (I think most of us agree no, but we could all be wrong, who knows?(Christopher does))

3. Are the cards under Guise still in play? If so, do they add to the count of cards in play for the hero they belonged to? Do they count for the ruling which is specific to Sky-Scraper (may not have made that clear earlier) that states "you can never have more than one of her character cards in play at the same time."? (I think that ruling may need an update since the introduction of the variant to have it apply seperately to her variant) (my answer to this is yes, and that puts a restriction on what card you can swap to because, if extremely normal is under Guise you can't swap to a different extreme as that'd put two of the same variant in play so you must, if swapping Sky-Scraper, use the card under Guise. Phantaskippy has said no, you can, by switching her size yourself, end up with all of one variants sizes under Guise)

Those are all the questions I want to see answered here, but I do have one more:

4. What are the mechanical differences between switching a card and replacing it? (I believe that the only difference is that replace is used when the game wants to refer to one of the 2 cards involved in the switch because Guise's first incap ability says to switch a card and doesn't reference any switched cards afterwards. That ability points somewhat towards the ability to switch Sky-Scrapers cards from under Guise)

#1: Here's the thing which makes me pretty confident that Sky-Scraper can never, on her own, swap between vanilla and Extremist: Simply owning a set of promos should not make a character objectively stronger.  That's pay-to-win and is very much against the concept of this sort of game.  If she has the choice of becoming either normally normal or Extremely normal (I love that turn of phrase), it's going to be flatly better than if she doesn't have that choice.  So #1 should be No.

As additional evidence, Christopher has stated that it's not intended that Sky-Scraper can choose any combination of cards to play with.  She has access to all three vanilla cards, or all three Extremist cards, not a mix.

#2: My opinion is that each of Sky-Scraper's same-size cards are variants of each other, and not of different-size cards.  This is just my opinion, but I'm pretty confident about it.

#3: Yes, cards under other cards are considered to be in play, and to belong to the character whose deck they come from.  So this would require a slight revision of that wording.  Again, there's no restriction against swapping to a card that Guise took for himself.  Guise could potentially end up with as many as 3 cards under himself, and they could even be of different variants, but there's no way he can have both cards of the same size collected.

#4: Now, this is interesting.  First, I don't think there's a difference between "replace" and "switch".  Neither is a defined term, so that's just my opinion.  But the incap language is very different: "Switch a card under your card with a character card in play with the same hero name."  Not a "variant."  So on one hand, that suggests he could use this power to switch Sky-Scraper's size for her.  On the other hand, a literal interpretation would allow him to swap the Sentinels for their Void Guard equivalents, if he could somehow get ahold of them, which he could do if one player were playing the Sentinels and another was playing a member of Void Guard--and it would even be a really good idea in an OblivAeon game.

There is no "pay-to-win" in a cooperative game where you are free to play variants written down on a scrap of paper.

Christopher has stated that? I remember hearing they were designed to work best with the matching sets, but players are free to mix them as long as there is 1 and only 1 of each size. So a game could totally start off with Base Normal Sky-Scraper, with Extremist Tiny and Huge Sky-Scrapers in the wait. I could be remembering incorrectly though.

This is inaccurate, we have a single ruling that has Hero mean Hero Character Card, we have no ruling anywhere that Hero Character Card can mean Hero.  They are not synonymous, because if they were The Sentinels would be infinite heroes.

Ultimately, it will be answered, most likely when Completionist Guise joins the Video Game.  You are arguing intent vs. semantics here.  You can interperet the wording on the cards to have an effect that ruins an entire character, no tradeoff, no gain from it, no reason other than Christopher wants a card he made let players ruin the game.  I mean sure, there's absolutely no way to look at that and gain any insight into what direction he might go with that.

Related: If Sky-Scraper has a variant underneath Guise, and Sky-Scraper changes form, would the card underneath Guise change as well? I would assume so if it's intended to be treated as one card with three states, rather than 3 separate cards.

Also, great potential for audio clip if Completionist Guise has Huge Sky-Scraper go to Tiny Sky-Scraper. "Whoops...umm...hope you weren't planning to switch back."

I rather like the idea that Sky-Scraper is considered "one card" for both versions, just one card with six sides. She is either Extremist Sky-Scraper or she is Sky-Scraper. If he switches out Extremist Huge for a variant Sky-Scraper, she goes to Regular Huge. 

If he then changes out (after she switches stuff) the Extremist Huge card he has under him for her Regular Tiny, he hands her back the Extremist Huge card... and she puts Extremist Tiny out, because she's being switched card-for-card, but the card is just Extremist or Regular; the size she's in is up to her, and she's considered one card.

That's how I plan to treat it at my table, anyway. It makes the most coherent sense, especially based on the above question-sequence, where it says "explain how SHE chooses to be Extremist in one size, then Regular in another" and I don't have a good answer. Therefore, clearly, she shouldn't be able to, because she must JUST be Extremist or Regular, and so... that's that. She's Extreme or she's not. The rest is up to her.

And while just letting Guise eat five of her cards (Extremist Tiny, Extremist Normal, Extremist Huge, Regular Tiny, Regular Normal, leaving her with Regular Huge) probably works as written from a certain perspective, that breaks how her deck works.

For me, those are the two choices that make logical sense:

• each card can be considered a variant separately,
• her cards are all considered one and are a set of one variant, and a set of a second variant, and sets move together

Since option 1 could potentially ruin her entire gameplay mechanic, I'm going with option 2.

I see a third option, where Huge, Normal and Tiny are only variants of her other cards of the same size.  So Huge can only switch to huge, tiny only to tiny, and normal to normal.  In this interpretation Guise could get 1 of each size under his card.

That is what I expect the official ruling to be.

That was definitely how I saw it at the start of the thread! But the question of "how does Sky-Scraper herself switch between versions of herself, not just sizes?" above made me rethink it.

Ultimately, so long as the official ruling isn't "she gets to have only one card, as the rest get farmed by a trolling Guise" I'm happy.