When I use Lemme see that with a Dual Crowbar and then I Can Do That, Too! with Skyscraper's Big Power...
I hit every villain target for 2+1 damage and then can hit again, same for the hero targets. Correct?
What if I take a Jack Handle? When there are 4 non-hero targets do I get to attack all of them 4 times?
It would work like Mr Fixer having Dual Crowbars and Jack Handle in play. The initial damage intended for 1 target is dealt to all targets. Then, the damage amount/type that was dealt to the FIRST target is fed into dual crowbars. Then, that much damage is dealt to ALL targets again. However, you will end up hitting all hero targets twice as well.
Assuming no damage modifiers on Guise except for the Crowbars, wouldn’t the heroes all get 0 damage and then H targets of Guise’s choice get 0 + 1 = 1 damage?
So, in total, each non-hero target gets 2 + 1 = 3 damage, then N (the number of non hero targets) targets of Guise’s choice get 3 + 1 = 4 damage, then the heroes all take 0 damage, then H targets of Guise’s choice get 0 + 1 = 1 damage?
Yikes.
Dual Crowbars gives you +1 damage so the second part of Concussive Clap would damage all the heroes for at least one if there are no other buffs and then cause Dual Crowbars to make a second hit on all hero targets for at least two.
I disgree. The problem with Crowbars and Jack Handle is that the latter converts every single attack to 'all non-hero', so you need special rules for how it interacts with crowbars to avoid the second attack triggering every time to hit everyone again.
With Concussive Clap, this isn't a problem. The second attack from crowbars would just be a standard one hit, just happening a lot of times, so you'd hit every non-hero for 3 and then after you hit each target you could hit any target for 4. Then, once all those resolved, assuming the villain wasn't reduced to a puddle of jelly, you'd hit each hero target for 1 and after each hit, you'd hit any target you liked for 2. Its still a hideously powerful combination, but that's that sort of shenanigans Guise can pull off.
It's certainly more potent if it works that way. I've asked in the alpha testing board for the video game so I should have a definite answer eventually.
Well, you can partially replicate it if you give Fixer the Mindbreaker title in the arena.
This is why I think the Jack Handle + Dual Crowbars ruling/implementation in the video game (resolving as two attacks on all non-hero targets) is silly and counterintuitive.
It implies that in a situation like the one above, if Guise is borrowing Crowbars, using Sky-Scraper's power will result in Guise attacking all non hero targets for 3, then using the damage dealt to just one of those targets (first or last or something) he would get just one more Crowbar attack on a target of choice; then the same after the 1 damage on all hero targets. This doesn't make much sense to me. Intuitively, I would resolve it as pwatson wrote.
But If Guise borrows Jack Handle in this scenario instead, I think Sky-Scraper's power should resolve as normal, although technically you would: deal all non-hero targets 2 damage, then again deal all non-hero targets 0 damage. If Guise has a damage increase effect this could be a neat combo.
That doesn't sound anything like "convincing the world he doesn't exist". <.<
Now I see why Guise is such a nightmare to program.
Okay, for the first hit we have to do 1 damage to all the hero targets, but there's no reason the second hit has to target heros.
It depends upon how it is ruled.
Why, though? We’ve always been able to choose the secondary target for Dual Crowbars. Why would we be unable to in this situation?
Look at my original reply. I don't think it's clear how it should work when an effect has you hit all non-hero targets.
I see your reply, but I don’t see any reasoning for it in the text of Dual Crowbars nor in the way the card has functioned to this point in the video game. It lets you choose the secondary target, it doesn’t automatically hit the same target. Why would that change?
EDIT: Jack Handle specifies that all damage you do is instead dealt to all non-hero targets. That effect isn’t in play here.
The power you are copying has you deal damage to all non-hero targets and then to all hero targets. This functions similarly to what Jack Handle would do. Due to that I don't think it is clear whether you would just have Dual Crowbars trigger from each hit or cause two instances of damage to each target.
Jackhandle is made to override the initial damage dealing effect. It takes place instead of the initial effect.
Sky-Scraper's huge power doesn't work like that. It doesn't have an 'if/then' clause like Jackhandle does -- it just does damage. And after it does damage, Dual Crowbars would trigger, and its effect says nothing whatsoever on what it has to target.
Well I'll have an answer for sure through alpha testing once Handelabra talks with Christopher again. It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong, gotten an unexpected answer, or that my thoughts were correct.
Exactly. I was under the impression Dual Crowbars and Jack Handle comboed the way they do because it overrides the second instance of damage, too.
Sky Scraper's power used with Jack Handle via Guise should (I believe, via my interpretation of the spirit of the rules) do 2 vollies of damage to non-hero targets. The second volley has 2 less damage to each target than the first.
We’re talking about Sky Scrapet’s power used with Dual Crowbars, though, not Jack Handle.
Okay. Then I only see it going one way.
Hit all enemies for 2 sonic (3 sonic, actually, thanks to Crowbar), then whatever other target for 4 sonic. Each time a target is hit, a different target has to take the crowbar hit, but all targets could be hit this way with minor planning.
Then hit all allies for 1 sonic damage, allowing the same number of other targets to be hit for 2 sonic damage (or the same one multiple times if you want).
I just tried Dual Crowbars + Mindbreaker. Mr. Fixer did damage to each target, and after each instance of damage, Dual Crowbars activated and let me deal another instance to any target I wanted.
Incidentally, it turns out that when Mr. Fixer has Grease Monkey Fist, Dual Crowbars, Harmony, The Seeker, Reckless and the Mindbreaker out all at once, he does frankly ridiculous amounts of damage.
Awesome!
That’s pretty much what I would expect.
I have played that game. It was glorious.
What doesn't make sense is how Jackhandle + Crowbars is resolved.
It seems to apply crowbars first, turning one attack into 2, and then turning each of those attacks into all-non-hero attacks.
That makes no sense with crowbars normally responding to damage dealt and jackhandle changing the targetting of the attack before it starts hitting people.
That's the ruling Christopher handed down to Handelabra on it. I wasn't sure myself how that was going to be ruled.
By the way, it's worth noting that the Jack Handles + Dual Crowbars interaction bases the second row of damage on the first instance of damage you do in the first round. So it's generally a good idea to target someone with no damage reduction first.