Promo Infinitor and Captain Cosmic/Chrono-Ranger

Just played a solo game against advanced Tormented Ally Infinitor against Captain Cosmic, Best of Times Chrono-Ranger, The Adamant Sentinels, and Ra on the Mobile Defense Platform. Ran into some interesting rules questions that I had to resolve on my own.

1) Does Infinitor count as a Hero Character Card? If so, Captain Cosmic could play Energy Bracers on him to reduce damage dealt to him. I assumed no during the game.

2) If a Manifestation with a bounty attached to it gets placed under Infinitor, does the bounty get destroyed if the bounty states "When the target leaves play, destroy this card"? I assumed no, but I had the feeling it was yes after the game.

3) Does Infinitor also count as a Villain target? I assumed no (which was good for the Sentinels as they usually only hit villain targets), but I can't ignore that keyword "Villain" on Infinitor. I guessed he's technically still the Villain for the purposes of some environments (Rook City, for one), but he's still only a hero target.

For those who were curious, the heroes won quite handily by Infinitor killing all of his Manifestations in one fell swoop of Whispers of Oblivion with each hero in double digit HP (including the Sentinels).

1) Not sure about this one, I am go with no until I hear otherwise.

2) Yes, as it's no longer a Target when it goes under Infinitor

3) I'd say he's no longer a Villain Target, but he is a Villain Character Card.

Yeah, the targets with bounties left play when they went under Infinitor.

As for Infinitor, I think that:

Infinitor, like any main villain card, is both a “character card” and a “villain card.” He is a character card because of the style of card (double-sided), and he is a villain card because his card says “villain” right on it. He’s also a target because he has health, so he’s a “villain target.” Nothing in his rules said he is no longer such a thing.

Tormented Hero Infinitor is also a “hero target,” because his rules say so right there. That’s only true on one side.

By the combination of the first two points, Tormented Hero Infinitor is also a “hero character card.”

So, you can totally put that Energy Bracer on him, but Positive Energy also deals him damage.

Except that we know the two points aren’t combined by the Operative. The Operative is a villain card, a villain target, and a character card. However, she is not a villain character card.

He is only a hero target and still listed as a villain on the card.  He would not be Hero Character Card

#1:  From the rulebook:

Hero Character Card:  The main card for a hero.  Heroes have character cards, which list the Maximum HP of the Hero and their innate power on the front, and their incapacitated abilities on the back.

Villain Character Cards:  The main cards for a Villain.  Villains have Character Cards which list the maximum HP of the Villain as well as the setup, gameplay, and advanced rules for that specific Villain.

All rules carry the caveat "Unless otherwise stated" but in this case Infinitor does not state otherwise, and so must be considered a Villain Character card.

#2:  Even if a card does not leave play, but instead ceases to be a target, it counts as the target leaving play.

#3:  I'd go with no.  He should be a Villain target, as he is a target and a villain card.  However, his card states he is a hero target, and not "also" a hero target.  So this wholly depends on whether a card can be a villain and hero target at the same time, I would go with no.  

Sadly his hero target side doesn't have any interesting interactions with Sub-Zero Atmosphere.

Well Sub Zero Atmosphere could lead to a win caused by Infinitor taking out the last Manifestation before he plays another card.  

I guess I buy the argument that he’s not a Hero Character Card. But,

I don’t think there’s any reason why “villain target” and “hero target” would be mutually exclusive. Rather, I think Infinitor is supposed to be both. He’s fighting himself.

But isn't The Dreamer a Villain target even though she's a "hero?" Surely, the same logic carries over to Infinitor.

Dreamer carries no unusual statuses.  She is a villain card, a villain character card and a villain target.

As for Villain target and Hero Target, there are a lot of really wierd interactions that can go on there, and the differences would be wierd.

For example If he is a hero and villain target Demoralize will hit him but Cold Snap won't.  A lot of cards like that, also Unity's volatile parts and shockwave will hit infinitor if he counts as a villain, lots of wierdness.

Given how many cards and effects specify "non-hero" or "non-villain," it reads to me like a card can't be both. Reading him as both a villain target and a hero target makes him immune to all those effects, which doesn't seem right.

He is a hero target but he is still a villain character card.    So anything hitting hero targets would affect him but anything hitting villain targets would not.   I would consider similar to how you would treat a Construct or Mechanical Golem for what targets get hit by an affect.  

I feel comfortable with: Infinitor is a villain character card and a hero target, but not a hero character card nor a villain target. That would seem to fit most with the theme/intent/mechanics.

Side question: did the promo villains not get playtested? This seems like the kind of ambiguity that would have been cleared up quickly with playtesting.

They get playtested, but most of the time we assume things, or get answers that are quasi-official, or we are told to play with both and see if it causes trouble, then we come to a concensus that "A" works better than "B" and never get an official ruling.

Very rarely do we get official rulings in playtesting, since things can change so much.  Several of the official rulings we do get end up being reversed or become irrelevant as mechanics change.

Ah, got it.

When we've played variant Infinitor, we've assumed Infinitor is a villain character card and both a hero and villain target, but not a hero character card.

Just to confuse things further.

I haven't seen any reason to assume a card can't be both a hero target and a villain target. I think there are assumptions some of us have made on this, but we have no evidence one way or another. Until we get official confirmation, we should play it the way we think is the most fun. 

Personally, I think that allowing for it opens some interesting design space, as this character shows. He's going to be hit by everything the heroes throw at villain targets and everything the villains (his manifestations and one-shots) throw at the heroes, making him far more challenging than if he's just a hero target and not a villain target. It also makes for interesting decisions: Does Tempest really want to use his base power, when it will hit their "ally"?

I'll happily accept being wrong, if that's what official word comes down as. But for now I'm going to keep playing him as both.

We should have an answer once it's in the video game at worst.  Since this promo didn't really come along with any particular set I'm not sure when it would be part of it.

Yeah that's actually what I originally assumed the one time I played against him—that would make his function similar to the Dreamer in many ways—but there were a few interactions/card effects that just felt wrong to me thematically. I think Tempest's shackles were available, and Infinitor, supposedly an active "ally" in this scenario kept that card from being useful because Tempest would end up targeting him. But I suppose there are also ways of reimagining that narrative, and embracing the challenge. So…

Also, this whole thing: re: "non-hero targets." We decided there was no issue with Squall, even if Infinitor was both hero & villain target, because being a hero target makes it logically impossible for him to be a "non-hero target." Right?

Ha! Well, . You'd think I'd know better by now not to post without looking at the actual card.

You are absolutely correct. I was thinking "villain targets", but of course it's "non-hero targets", so it's not an issue. (But you get my point. ) Thanks!

I don't know… the way I see it, cards that deal damage to "non-hero targets" do not specify "hero target" immunity really. In my interpretation they simply look for cards that contain a non-hero trait (villain or environment being the only two, I think) and deal damage to that… so by being a villain target a card meets that qualification, even if it is also a "hero target"

I think they could be both and as such suffer damage aimed at non-hero targets and non-villain

EDIT: to clarify (maybe) when a card or effect specifies that it applies to "non-hero target", I don't think it is explicitly excluding hero targets… it is simply looking for traits other than hero. So by having two traits, hero and villain, a target would qualify since it would be both a hero and a non-hero target. 

Having a trait of hero target would violate the non-hero target rule.

well… Technically the rules say that if a card "affects non-hero targets, it can target any targets that are not hero cards or hero character cards" so if we establish that Infinitor remains a villain character card while having his hero target status… he wouldn't really violate the non-hero target rule. 

It depends upon on how you view it.   I personally don't think things like Squall or Frost Bound Drain could hit Infinitor on the front side.

It can only hit him from behind?

Yeah I think it makes more sense if it hits everything that isn’t explicitly a hero card.

For example, if you had a red ball, a blue ball, and a red-and-blue ball, and I told you to pass me every “non-red ball”, you’d only pass me the blue ball. Right?

Maybe I just use language differently to other people, but that is what makes the most sense to me.

I don't understand how you could think that "non-hero target" doesn't explicitly exclude hero targets. "Non-hero target" can't mean anything but "targets that are not hero targets."

Please don't go bringing in other examples of different situations. Bad memories. shudder 

I guess I was just reading it as a target possessing a trait other than hero. So I just imagined that card searching for targets that had any non-hero traits and just ignoring the hero portion of the trait. 

I don't think think that I was right in that approach as Peter's example with the red and blue balls illustrated the exclusion pretty well. 

However, I still think that the rules as written would still have Infinitor being affected by cards and effects that target non-hero target as he is a target and he is not a hero card or a hero character card. 

But he is explicitly a hero target. So anything specifically targeting "non-hero targets" would by definition not hit him.

No way man. Infinitor isn't really a red-and-blue ball, more like a red-or-blue ball. Because being both a villain & hero target simultaneously is contradictory (he is not half-hero and half-villain, but whole-hero and whole-villain).

His state changes based on how we observe him. Like quantum mechanics. He is either red or blue based on context, but not both. But really he is green though.

He is Quantum Infinitor.

I think he hangs out with Schrodinger's cat.


I think this analogy is the problem right here. You equated red = villain and blue = hero.

I’d say the situation is more like this:

I have a red ball, a red block, and a blue ball. If I ask you to hand me the non-red things, you give me the blue ball. If I ask you to hand me the non-ball things, you hand me the red block.

The objects can totally be both red and a block, or neither blue nor a ball.

Villain = non-hero and hero = non-villain are false equivalencies. “Hero” and “villain” are just keywords a card can acquire, like “limited” or “environment.” “Non-X card” just means a card that does not have the keyword X. It doesn’t say anything about the keyword the card DOES have.

Wow, what have I started here? :p

Well, I know what I'm asking tomorrow if they have another drawing livestream.

I am really confused about what you think Peter is saying. From your last couple of lines, it reads like you agree that non-hero and non-villain attacks should not hit Infinitor, but you opened by disagreeing with someone arguing the same thing, and your metaphor makes a lot less sense than Peter's balls.

None of the Environment cards have the "environment" keyword.

None of Unity's bots have the "Hero" keyword. In fact, none of the hero character cards have the "Hero" keyword either. By your argument here, cards that specify "hero target" should not be able to affect anything.

Whether something is a hero, villain or environment card has nothing to do with keywords and everything to do with decks – unless a card specifically says otherwise.

Promo Infinitor's card specifically says he is a hero target.

Which means that effects that specify "Non-Hero Target" cannot affect him, because those effects key on the lack of a qualifier that he is specifically stated to have.

The analogy would be a problem if red and blue were mutually exclusive.  But the existance of the red and blue ball negates that, and makes this analogy functionally equivalent to your analogy.

Obviously the answer is this

Or we could go straight to the rule book:

Hero Target:  Any target that is also a hero card or a hero character card.  If a card affects non-hero targets it can affect any targets that are not hero cards or Hero Character cards.

So yes, infinitor being a hero target does not actually prevent cards that affect non-hero targets from affecting him.

Aren't rules fun?

By that logic I would argue that Infintor isn't a Hero Target either (despite having rules text saying that he is) because he isn't a hero card or a hero character card.  If you modify the definition to allow for rules text it reads:

Hero Target:  Any target that is also a hero card or a hero character card [or has rules text declaring it to be a hero target].  If a card affects non-hero targets it can affect any targets that are not hero cards or Hero Character cards   [or have rules text declaring them to be hero targets] .

Maybe the rules don't explicitly say that, but I think that that is clearly what is intended here.

The rules apply only until a card specifically says otherwise. To my knowledge, that's always been the case.

Yeah, basically start every rule with "Unless a card says otherwise."

Whoops. Yeah, I was actually agreeing with Peter, but I was trying to disambiguate the analogy. Clearly it didn’t work!

Here’s how I see it. Between the types “hero” and “villain” (whether assigned explicitly as a keyword, like “villain” on the villain character card; or implicitly like Unity’s bots coming out of a hero deck) there are FOUR mutually exclusive possibilities:

Non-Hero and non-Villain (e.g. most environment cards)

Hero and non-Villain (most hero cards are this)

Non-Hero and Villain (most villain cards)

Hero and Villain (this is what I think Infinitor on his front side is)

But…no? It says "it can affect," not "it only affects." The reason for the rule is just to define what a "hero target" is, so that every single card doesn't have to have "this card is a hero target" written on it. But if a card has "this card is a hero target" written on it, it's a hero target. You wouldn't go back to the rulebook, find the original rule, and then say, "no you're not!"

but I dunno maybe you would who am I to judge

EDIT: 

Yeah basically I'm just repeating this whoops

Well, here I am adding more rules questions to this thread: If Infinitor flips during the end of his turn (when his Manifestations are attacking), does Infinitor's end of villain turn text activate after resolving the stuff when he flips (and the current Manifestation, if necessarry).

Hilariously enough, played a game against him with the Darkwatch team in Megalopolis. He got most of his Manifestations out on his front side. The heroes wittled all of them down to 0, but Infinitor was stubbornly not destroying them fast enough (a.k.a., refusing to play Whispers of Oblivion). Nightmist hid in Mistform to prepare for the oncoming storm. One Rooftop Combat later, and Infinitor's 22HP at the time fell insanely quickly (went from the highest hero target to the lowest one with one Twisted Miscreation. The Lambent Reapers finished him off).

Thought I was done, especially after Fixer, Setback, and Expat all went down on the following turn, leaving Nightmist in Mistform and a huge hand that she couldn't do anything with. Pretty much called it.......then remembered that a Plummeting Monorail was in play, and would hit Nightmist (for nothing) and Infinitor each turn. Because I was playing on advanced, once a Manifestation comes out and he gains his 4hp, he can't use that Manifestation to heal ever again. And neither Megalopolis nor Infinitor could force Nightmist to break out of Mistform. So, Infinitor was destined to be crushed repeatedly to death by Plummeting Monorails (and shot by Police Backup, once they came out. And be driven insane by his own Whispers of Oblivion...).

Essentially, the game was over the moment I played Mistform on Nightmist. Huh... 

In general I think that Infinitor has a hard time dealing with tanking.  There was a forum game against regular Infintor (Advanced and Challenge) that was rapidly going downhill before it was abandoned that I still think was winnable if Scholar had managed to dig out 2 or 3 Flesh to Irons and just tanked as Infinitor slowly killed himself.

This is actually one of the reasons that I love the video game. It has cleared up a lot of the fine details of the rules that I was pretty sure I was playing correctly, but hadn't spent the time digging through the rules forum to be sure. Or if things were errata'd that I missed (like Dual Crowbars).