Celestial Tribunal Environment: "Representative of Earth" card

Just got it yesterday, awesome, and looking through the deck, I'm wondering how that "Representative of Earth" card works.

I'm not sure what it means to "put it into play." Does that mean the selected Hero Character Card gets a turn alongside the Heroes already in play, with a Hand, a Deck, a Trash, and everything? Or is it just a Hero Target that sits there taking damage whenever a card does damage to all Hero Targets?

If it does get put in as a new Hero team member, do the players just decide as a group what that Hero does on his or her turn and where in the turn order he or she sits?

It just gets added as an extra target.

Is that chosen Hero considered in play as a Hero Character for purposes of cards or Powers that give back HP, such as Tempest's Cleansing Downpour?

It's definitely a Hero Target, so would be healed by Cleansing Downpour. I'm not sure if it's also a Hero Character Card.

It would be a Hero Character Card, and a Hero.  It says as much on the card.

Wierdly though, it has no player, and by definition a Hero is "A Character played by a Hero".

There will be tons of wierd interactions, I think we will have to wait for the video game to have it fully fleshed out.

How about against Plague Rat?  Can that hero be infected?

I don't think they count as an active hero

So there is another card in this environment that lets you use the Representative's power, but otherwise we consider it to be a hero target in the Environment's play area? It makes sense thematically: they can only help when they are called to the witness stand as otherwise they are kept out of the frey by the guards that called them up.

I had a bit of confusion with this card in a game earlier - the card that brings that one into play (can't remember the name) says something to the effect of "a hero may use the power printed on that hero's character card" or something, and we weren't sure whether that meant it counted as the 10-hp hero using the power or the hero whose player had chosen to use the power. We'd been thinking of bringing out Legacy but weren't sure whether the power use would count as him using it, or the hero we'd picked to use his power so didn't know when the effect would wear off. We ended up just taking TLT instead as her power doesn't have a duration.

That’s interesting - if you went with Legacy, he doesn’t really have a turn. So do you get +1 damage forever?

We always use one of the 3 Legacy characters. Grampa is a favorite for healing and letting one of us use a power. We just assumed that normal Legacy's effects lasted until the environment's turn since he is a hero environment card. I also assume you could take him out with any effect that destroys an environment card. Bad idea, I would think, but doable.

 The way I understand it: the character card you choose counts only as a hero character card and hero target, but not as a "hero" because there is no player for that card.

When Called to Judgment or that other card allow you to use its power, it says "a hero" may use the power on the character card, meaning a player, so you choose a player to use it. Legacy's power would end at the start of turn phase of whatever player/hero you chose.

Also, if the power refers to "you" it means the player, not the character card, so if you chose Dr. Medico as rep, a player could use it to heal their own hero character card, but no one elses, not even Medico's, I think.

EDIT: Also I know the character card is referred to as simply a "hero" on RoE, but I read that more as a shorthand for the card. Ambiguous tho.

[quote="Voob Gooblin"]

 The way I understand it: the character card you choose counts only as a hero character card and hero target, but not as a "hero" because there is no player for that card.When Called to Judgment or that other card allow you to use its power, it says "a hero" may use the power on the character card, meaning a player, so you choose a player to use it. Legacy's power would end at the start of turn phase of whatever player/hero you chose.Also, if the power refers to "you" it means the player, not the character card, so if you chose Dr. Medico as rep, a player could use it to heal their own hero character card, but no one elses, not even Medico's, I think.EDIT: Also I know the character card is referred to as simply a "hero" on RoE, but I read that more as a shorthand for the card. Ambiguous tho.

[/quote]

I think you're right about most of this except the part about Dr. Medico.  His power is "1 hero target regains 3 HP." So I believe it would work like this: 1 player gets to pick any hero target and that target to regain 3 HP.  However, if you look at a hero like Captain Cosmic whose base power explictly says "your deck" that would refer to the deck of the player whose hero used the power.  The last case would be a hero like Ra whose power states "Ra deals 1 target 2 fire damage" so the source of the damage would be Ra even if it was say Setback using the power.  Definitely a confusing card I'm still unclear on what hero cards are and are not valid selections, if I'm playing Golem Unity could I pick Base Unity?  Are promo heroes valid selections?

Oh right, I was thinking his power was "1 of your hero targets..." but this is wrong.

naddasosmart

The Representative of Earth is in the Environment area and would be part of the Environment turn, so Legacy would bost damage until the start of the Environment turn.  Any effects based on the Representative's turn will use the Environment turn.

The Representative of Earth is a Hero card, a hero target, a card from it's respective deck, a Hero Character card, and it is active.

It is not a Hero (requires a player and deck), it has no hero turn, no hand, no play area, no player.  You can put cards next to it, but not "in its play area".

Thus:

Greatest Legacy, Prime Warden Fanatic, Argent Adept, Parse and Unity can not grant the Representative a power.

Vernal Sonata, Motivational charge, etc. would cause it to regain health.

Captain Cosmic could put any of his Constructs other than Crest next to the Representative, but only Autonomous Blade, Vitality Conduit, Wounding Buffer or Energy Bracers will do anything.  The others all reference hero or player in the effect, and that will not apply to the Representative.

Fanatic could put Embolden on The Representative, but all it would do is let her deal it damage.

Guise can use its innate power with "I can do that too".

Flesh of the Sun God will make the Representative immune to Fire.

Proverbs and Axioms would allow the Representative to use a power, and to be considered the one using it.  Which won't work for powers that have you play a card, draw a card, etc., but also would not cause it to take damage from Spite for PL626, because no hero used a power.

Things can get interesting, but just remember The Representative is not a Hero, because a Hero is a character played by a player, and the Representative has no player.

Called to Judgement would work as stated above, the Player that uses the power is the Hero, The reason Supertonic says a player may use a power is because that player will then get the effect of anything that says "you".  This means if you got Called to Judgement against Spite with PL626 in play and you used the Representative's power, your Hero would take the damage and you would discard the top 5 of your deck.

Guise using another hero's power gets the benefit of anything that says "you".

Same for the Representative's power with Called to judgement.

I like that interpretation (that “a hero” uses the power and anything in the power refers to that hero’s player), because it makes heroes like Omnitron-X, Expatriette, or Captain Cosmic useful as Representative of Earth. I was wondering how those heroes’ powers would work…

But Guise can use DW Expatriatte's Aim to increase the damage that Guise does.  That would not work for Called to Judgement, right?  

Correct, No matter who uses Aim through Called to Judgement it would increase damage dealt by Expatriette only.

I disagree. Since it says "until the start of your next turn", it would last until the start of the next turn belonging to the hero who used it.

I believe this is actually an error. Players do not use powers, Heroes do. I've just been much too lazy to compile a list of all of them and send it to Christopher , mostly because some of the errors have been around since the base game and no one else seems bothered by it.

A hero is inseperable from the player.  That's why the Sentinels are one hero.  Hero is just clearer, but for gameplay purposes they mean the same thing.

This is correct, I was thinking of Proverbs and Axioms which allows the Character Card to use a power.

How many times throughout playtesting have you seen me suggest something should say hero instead of player when refering to power usages and then seeing it changed? That's because all power usages should refer to the hero, becuase it is supposed to be thematically worded. 

I agree that Hero is the proper wording, but it doesn't change how the effect is played.

I realize that I misread the original post, I thought it was saying it intentionally read "player" instead of "hero".

So if the players choose Captain Cosmic as the Representative of Earth, Guise’s player may play “I Can Do That, Too!” to reveal the top card of his (Guise’s) deck and put it into play or into his hand. But if the environment plays Called to Judgement, nothing happens from the power use?

Only if the power use occurred within the same turn.  

I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by "it".

The power 

I meant that as a separate case. Here:

Suppose on the environment turn, the players choose Captain Cosmic as the Representative of Earth. After the villain turn, it’s Guise’s turn. Guise’s player may play “I Can Do That, Too!” to activate Captain Cosmic’s power, reveal the top card of his (Guise’s) deck and put it into play or into his hand. I think we’re all agreed on that.

On the next environment turn, Called to Judgement comes into play. It says, “1 hero may use the power on the hero character card in this play area now.” Tachyon’s player chooses to do so. Does she get to reveal the top card of her deck and put it into her hand or into play, as Captain Cosmic’s power says?

In other words, do we specifically need the language “I Can Do That, Too” has about treating “you” as Guise’s player?

Tachyon could totally put the card into play or hand. Note that Guise’s only card that mentions “you” is Lemme See That. The reason is due to that card belonging to another hero and would not affect cards like HUD Goggles. However, using a power that uses “you” automatically implies that it is the player of the Hero using it gets the benefits of any “you” uses.

On phone right now, so I cannot be as verbose as I would have likes, sorry.

You normally cannot use other player's powers, only your own.

The You in a power is the player using the power.  You may draw, or play a card, those things are for the hero using the power.

The name of a character acting will not be changed by called to judgement.

So Squall will still cause Tempest to deal the damage (sorry Wraith).  That is where I can do that too! is special, because it changes the name of the acting character to Guise.

So do powers with a duration in this case (eg Galvanise) count the environment turn as their start point, or the turn of the player who used the power on the environment turn?

It should be based on the hero who chose to use the power not the environment turn.  

Agreed, the interesting edge case is this: if the Scholar plays Proverbs and Axioms and Representative Legacy uses Galvanize will it ever expire since it will never be the start of Legacy’s turn? I feel like a literal interpretation of the rules says no but the ruling will be made such that its not so game breaking and it will end at the start of the environment turn.

I would say Proverbs and Axioms would do nothing for a Hero that is currently a Represenative of Earth. Due to there not being a player behind them to make the decision.

That totally makes sense. So if another hero OR player uses a power like Legacy's, with an effect that lasts until the start of your next turn, it completely makes sense that the effect would last until the start of that hero's OR player's next turn.

In that case, it is problably better to use Omnitron (who is actually on the card) or grandpa Legacy to let another player get an effect of some sort. Or maybe even Super Scientific Tachyon. Unity would make a poor representative of Earth in this case, sadly.

There are all sorts of things that players decide, why couldn't they decide whether that character card would regain hp or take damage to use a power?

My previous post says exactly why I do not think it would work. 

There isn't a player behind the environment deck, yet decisions about what it does happen all through the game.

Yes, that does happen.

Since it appears you want a longer explanation and I am actually at my computer, I guess I could type it up.

The way I see it, whenever I choice is presented to a Hero, that choice goes to the player who is playing said Hero. While other players may make suggestions, the final decision is left up to the player. In the case of Proverbs and Axioms, the player chooses if their Hero will gain 2 HP or deal themself 3 psychic damage and use a power. Each player would be given the choise as to what will happen to their Hero. Since the Represenative of Earth lacks a player, I personally see no reason to have all players decide on what will happen due to not all players are deciding what will happen with each Hero. Not only that, but other cards that could allow a Hero to use a power (such as Dynamic Siphon) would not work, as once again there is not a player to decide a power for them to use. Take Celestial Tribunal's own cards that allow the Hero Character Card's power to be used, they are both allowing another Hero to use it. While one could agrue that this was done so powers that allows card draws or plays to actually be of use, I believe it was also done to ensure there is a single player that will be making a decision with how the effects will play out. Such as if Tempest was the Represenative of Earth, if someone else were to use the power, it would be their player that decides what order Tempest will deal damage.

Also, a Hero that is currently the Represenative of Earth does not have a turn. That would mean Legacy's Galvanize would never end. Which would yield some very silly results.

Except the Representative of Earth isn't a hero.  It is a Hero Character Card without a player.  It doesn't act as a Hero.

Except that Hero is shorthand for Hero Character Card, from the Fireside chats:

When card text says “hero” (not “hero target”) it’s shorthand for “hero character card.”

Then it can use powers, because it can be granted a power use by Greatest Legacy, PW Fanatic, Unity and Parse.  So we have to define when its turn is.

Do we know why that "Clarification" was made?

Because the definition of a hero has always been

A Hero is a Character Played by a player.

I wonder what effect they wrote that to clarify, because now a whole bunch of stuff gets to be thrown into the pile of "Used to make sense, until it was clarified."

At least we know why Christopher never wanted to clarify rules before the video game.

Well, I am done here. I have no reason to continue a discussion with someone who is able to state their opinion as the correct way.

I'm sorry, but that sentence doesn't make sense as written.

1.  We have a ruling that "When card text says “hero” (not “hero target”) it’s shorthand for “hero character card.”

2.  We have game text that says "A hero may use a power now."

That seems pretty clear that it means "A Hero Character Card may use a power now."

I think that it should be different, but I don't see how an argument can be made against it from anything official.  At that point we are taking opinion over the rules we have.

I may not like it, I think the Hero = Hero Character Card ruling is a bad rule (most likely worded poorly and thus overextending its actual intent) but until it is changed it is apparently the rule.

I don't really get the "hero = hero character card" thing. It seems to go against some previously established mechanics. With this ruling, the Sentinels are four heroes, not one. Which goes against how it was originally determined that things like Plague Rat's flip mechanic would work. Previously, with the Sentinels as one hero (but four hero targets), Rat could only ever Infect one of them and then they counted as one Infected active hero. With all four of them counting as individual heroes, he'd need to Infect all of them and all the other heroes in order to flip, an impossibility if there are two or more other heroes present.

Also, if "hero" is short for "hero character card", would this not also mean that the Sentinels cause H to be increased by three just by being present in the game, seeing as H is how many heroes (and therefore hero character cards) are present at the start of said game?

I'm sticking to "the Sentinels are one hero but four hero targets" myself ;).

My thought is that the intent is important. This is just my opinion and probably completely off-base, but it is how I reconcile this and similar situations/issues.

Many of us – including myself! – come from a background of games like Magic, games where the rules are regimented and clearly structured, with a solid answer to every situation that might arise. (At least it is now, but not so much when it first started.)

Sentinels has never been that. There are inconsistencies in terms and implementation that result in some very odd situations. For Sentinels, I think the intent is what matters. What's the situation? How should the effect work?

And I usually assume the primary intent is to have fun.

I do understand that discussing rules can be fun for some folks. (I definitely understand. Crap, I was mod on the MTGNews forums back in the day!) So there's nothing wrong with these kinds of (civil) conversations. However, I think we're going to have some things (like this, Isolated Hero, etc.) where we might have to say " it, here's how we're going to play it." and move on.

Again, that's just my approach on this. Take it for what it's worth.

I thought the rulebook for Vengeance said the Sentinels are basically an exception to this. Could be wrong, though – don't have it readily available right now…

This brings up interesting questions though.

Proverbs and Axioms specifically says "Each (edit: hero) character card" may either regain 2hp or deal itself etc. and use a power, not "each hero."

The Representative, if not a "hero," is definitely a hero character card, so P&A should apply to it—unless we accept as an inferred ruling that character cards without players simply cannot "use" their powers on their own, which makes sense to me...

But then, should the Representative be able to regain that 2hp (or deal itself damage for no reason) even if it can't use a power? It is still a hero character card.

Sidenote: this has probably been addressed before, but if P&A is played with The Sentinels in a game, does the choice apply to all four character cards? I would assume, by the wording, that it should.

I had a similar question come up in a came with the new promo Infinitor. On his front said, Infinitor is a hero target and a character card. Is he a hero character card?

He might be a hero target but I think he would still be classified as a villain character card. 

Also, hero = hero character card is just not true, right? Even if it's usually true, there are contexts where it is definitely not true (usually involving Sentinels, as mentioned above). I think it was meant just to clarify particular moments of shorthand, like on the Representative of Earth card itself, where "hero" is simply a substitution for "hero character card"—so I can't really consider this a "ruling" in the absolute. Otherwise the Sentinels are broken.

[quote="Ronway"]

Each player would be given the choise as to what will happen to their Hero. Since the Represenative of Earth lacks a player, I personally see no reason to have all players decide on what will happen due to not all players are deciding what will happen with each Hero.

[/quote]

I misread this the first time, now rethinking it.

So basically, anything that requires player agency, like an active decision (e.g. the entire choice on Proverbs & Axioms) cannot be done by the Rep because there's no player. That includes, but is not limited to, using its power. But cards that affect "hero character cards" (still not sure about cards that affect "heroes") still affect the Rep, because it would be passive.

That works for me.

It is functional.  But even in the video game there are times that players vote on what happens, because a decision has to be made and there isn't a clear person who should make it.

There is no requirement that Hero Character cards have to have a player, without a player they are not a hero, and don't get a deck or a hero turn, but there is nothing saying they can't still be there.

If two targets are valid targets of a villain attack and a decision has to be made you don't have the villain fail to deal damage becasue the Villain doesn't have a player, the players decide collectively.

For me it makes sense to decide such things collectively, and it makes sens to treat the Representative's turn being treated as the Environment turn, since that is the play area it is in.

Until we get an actual ruling, probably when the Video Game gets to that point we won't know.

But I would like some clarification as to what the Fireside Chat ruling is about, because as written it isn't functional.

Yes. It explicitly says that only one Sentinel can be infected by Plague Rat. It doesn't seem to say anything about , however.

I've loosely followed the discussion but basically I should play it however I feel like it since there's no clear ruling on this? I could use Setback's Risk and get some unlucky tokens for my Hero?

It is important to note that the ruling says "in game text" so Hero in the rulebook does not mean Hero Character card.  Only in card effects.

Personally, I'm going to play it as the group decides but I also really like the interpretation that nothing happens until the Reprehensive either spontaneously regains 2 HP or takes 3 damage and until 1 of those things happens everyone just sits there staring at it.

My interpretation does not mean the game will stop, it is that no decision can be made so the choice would be skipped and the game would continue.

Sorry I should clarify, I understand your position and think its perfectly valid.  The idea of the game stopping is a new position I'm putting forward because I think, under the most literal reading of the rules possible, that's what would happen, which I find amusing.

I like this. This is what I'll do. Then make some tea and talk about Shrodinger.

Edit: Also, I know this is a typo, but I like the name "The Reprehensive" for a hero.

I would like to point out that the things you see in the Fireside chats thread only pertain to the content we've developed for the video game so far, and may not necessarily apply to or take into consideration the content we haven't gotten to yet.

Just came across this today and after two players debated and argued about the decision for waaaaaaay too long, I'm going to have to play the Ronway on this from now on…