Title timing

I've got a few questions on titles in the Bloodsworn Colosseum. 

1. Some of the titles apply if event X happens in a turn. Does that title go to the target at the end of turn or as soon as the condition is satisfied. Example: Haka Rampages. He hits all non heroes. Then after hitting two hero targets he is eligible for "The Indiscriminant." Does he get that title and hence the +1 damage for hitting the remaining heroes or does he get it after his turn is done.

2. Another timing question. A hero destroys a fourth nonhero target in the same turn. This plays "Champion" from the title deck. Can the hero claim the title even though the title was not face up when the third target was destroyed?

3. Is there any flavor text that people know of for the titles? I really want to know what's going on in some of those pictures.

1)  As soon as the condition is met.

2)  Not sure

3)  I don't think so.

2. It would be based on when it entered play, much like Omnitron's Components.

1.  As soon as it happens.  The second hero target damaged gives Haka The Indiscriminate, and all others will be hit for +1.  KNYFE's Incidental Contact works much better.

2.  I believe it would be claimed as soon as it flips, because it isn't "When a target destroys the third target in a turn" but "When a target destroys 3 targets in a turn", when the card flips the hero has destroyed 3 targets that turn, so it is immediately earned.

3.  Nope.  Sadly.

Ok, so I'm still not 100% clear on #2. Let's say that a hero deals themselves 3 damage during their play phase. Then they use their power to destory a non-hero target. That causes "Reckless" to be played off the Title Deck. Can that hero immediately claim "Reckless" since they dealt themselves 3 damage earlier that turn? Thanks.

We are still in the same turn they dealt themselves 3 damage so they should gain the Reckless title. 

Edit: I see two arguments for the Titles working like the Omnitron Components.  Which makes more sense to me. So my answer changes to no and stop hitting yourself. 

That's not how Omnitron's components work. The "variable" tracking the damage amount does not exist until the card tracking it enters play. Otherwise you end up with things happening like Atlantean Font of Power causing components to enter play and immediately destroy themselves.

To be consistent with that, you would not get the title.

You're saying that if Omnitron is dealt 7 damage, then a component enters play, the component won't immediately destroy itself.  What if then, 1 more damage is dealt to Omnitron?  Will that destroy the component?

It will not. The variable on it for "damage this round" starts counting the moment it enters play.

This also means that different components can have different perspectives on the matter. It's an unusual case, but... AFOP makes unusual things happen all the time.

Thinking about it a bit more - this could also happen with Combat Stance or Flame Barrier or whatnot, if Omnitron gets dealt damage before it plays a component on its turn. Same thing.

I think it would be more intuitive if fresh components would have a full damage requirement. The way I see it, Omnitron's components enter play undamaged, and also have no knowledge of any past damage. Because really, if you damage Omnitron, pieces of him will start to fall off. So I believe that's the idea here.

Does Voss’s Quark Drive Translocator work the same way?

It should, I'd have to check the code to see if we did that properly.

So if Quark drive translocator is in play, and a minion enters play, and that causes the top card to be plyaed, which is Quark Drive Translocator, no card would be played for the secon one, because it wasn't in play yet.

Questions:

1.  If it begins tracking at the point it enters play, would it consider a minion played at the end of Voss' turn to be the first one, and thus play a card off of it?  Even though that minion is technically the second played that turn?

2.  Omnitron plays a component, then heroes deal Omnitron 4 damage, then Omnitron-X puts a component into play from Omnitron's deck, then heroes deal Omnitron 3 more damage.

In this case the first component is destroyed, but the second still needs Omnitron to be dealt 4 more damage before it is destroyed, correct?

Man this has some interesting connotations for Guise.

You could test (1) in the app, though it'd take some work. Setting off reinforcements on advanced Voss with a quark drive on the top of his deck gives you a chance of drawing a minion that wouldn't be the first in the turn.

In the app I think it'd be easier to test the Omnitron Components entering play from Atlantean Font of Power after 7 damage is already dealt, although Handelabra has already said that they would not be auto destroyed. Instead, each component has it's own tracking for how much damage has been dealt.

Thanks for all the replies. Sorry I was confused before. I'll play that the counting for each condition only starts once the title is face-up. That seems to make the most sense. Guess those fickle fans also have bad short term memory.

I believe so. I'm not sure that's how the app works right now though. We'll double check with Christopher, since we had talked about this in the context of components, but not Quark Drive.

2.  Omnitron plays a component, then heroes deal Omnitron 4 damage, then Omnitron-X puts a component into play from Omnitron's deck, then heroes deal Omnitron 3 more damage.In this case the first component is destroyed, but the second still needs Omnitron to be dealt 4 more damage before it is destroyed, correct? 

Yes.

But don't the components say " Destroy this card when Omniton is dealt 7 or more damage in one round ?"  If Omnitron plays a component on his turn, hero 1 deals 4 damage to Omnitron, hero 2 causes Omnitron to play a second component, hero 3 deals Omnitron 4 more damage isn't that the same round?  The second component is in play in the round in which 7 or more damage was dealt.  No matter where in the round it was played/put into play.  And I would think that yes, if Atlantean Font of Power played one of Omnitron's components in the same round in which he was dealt 7 or more damage, it would auto destroy.

Rules as Written would agree, but thematically it would be more correct to consider each component to have 7 health that is tied with Omnitron starting when the component enters play rather than that he has some piece of himself that collects components and when that's destroyed all components until the start of his next turn are instantly destroyed.  Also, RAW would make Omnitron a lot easier, requiring changing his deck to keep his challenge rating (already a 1!).

The text of the second component was not in play when that first 4 damage was dealt. It doesn't know about that 4 damage. It only knows about what has happened since it entered play.

This also affects Rooftop Combat. If Rooftop Combat is played, do you look back and see if 10 damage had been dealt in the round so far, then destroy the card immediately if so? Nope. It's the same thing.

In one round tells you that the damage has to occur in the same round, that once the Villain turn starts the counting resets to 0 damage.

It apparently is not designating that counting can be retroactive.

Which means "First time each turn" actually counts as "First time this card is aware of each turn".

This is a weird case because, in a game where we are told that the fundamental rule is to interpret the card as literally as possible, the literal interpretation of the card is counter to intuition and what we're being told is the ruling.

It makes sense to me that a component played in the middle of a round would not be affected by damage dealt prior to it being played. However, the text on the card doesn't care about when it was played - only how much damage has been dealt in the round.

Assuming that it is being handled the way it is in the app because that is the intention behind the card, can we get an official word on this, put it in the FAQ, close the case, and let this thread be taken over by puns about hot air balloons?

And I suppose coolant blast functions the same way as well?

Oh, damn. I've always played Coolant Blast retroactively. Hmm, that hurts.

Coolant Blast brings this into question.  Because in the app it will tell you how much fire damage you've been dealt as long as it's in your hand. 

We'll bring some of these to Christopher to double check.

You're gonna have to bring up a lot of fringe cases to Christopher. Mr. Fixer has a way of interacting with everything else in the game in such a way that spurs many debates. Looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with.

Yep indeed. And the tricky thing with the video game is you cannot hand wave anything; it has to behave consistently because it's a program.

The situation we're talking about above first came up in our discussions when beta testers reported a bug: Rooftop Combat destroying itself immediately upon being played, because 10 damage had already been done in the round. We went back and forth about it a couple times before ending up with the decision, which we also applied to Omnitron. I'm not sure the same thing has filtered through to all the cards that it might have to, yet (like Coolant Blast).

Of course, you are free to play on the table top however you like! It's just that in the video game we need to make the hard decisions =)

If coolant blast doesn't consider damage already taken before I play it, my chances of playing just went down even more :)

Coolant blast has different wording:

Power: Absolute Zero deals 1 non-Hero Target X Cold Damage, where X = the amount of Fire Damage that has been dealt to Absolute Zero since the end of your last turn.

"Since the end of your last turn" is different than "this round", and I bet that wording is so it will look backward, or at least that's what the end result will be.

It would work like components for Fanatic and Sacrosanct Martyr though, which is sad.

I've had 2 PW Fanatic games where Resolute put Martyr into play, which was awesome. Not so awesome now.

It would be reasonable to treat "this turn" and "this round" differently.  Expecting tabletop players to retroactively reconstruct/remember what happened in the current turn is not nearly as onerous as asking the same thing for the entire round.

I hope we don’t have to track counters for cards that aren’t even in play yet. How are we supposed to know that we’re going to need to track them? I’ve never played with preemptive tracking for convenience sake.

A lot of oddball cases were mentioned in this thread though where the wording of the cards could be interpreted to use preemptive tracking. I’m a bit unsure now what the intent is. I now eagerly await the rulings.

I expect Coolant Blast to track backwards, because of how it is worded.  The other ones I expect will only track once they are in play.

Both Coolant Blast and Supersonic Response use the same language, and supersonic response obviously tracks backward.  It's a one-shot vs. Ongoing, but they are all from the same set as Omnitron's components, so I would think the wording is intentional.

They are the only cards in the game that use the word since (at least according to the awesome spreadsheet), does anyone recall any other effects that have to track backward like Supersonic response?

Ok so I played the app and here's what I discovered. It's a little wierd.

If Omnitron has been dealt 7 or more damage already in the round and then one of his components is played then the component is not auto destroyed. HOWEVER, it does track the damage dealt so far that round. The card will only get detroyed when a damage event happens, though. Dealing damage is the trigger for the destruction check. So if Omnitron takes 1 more damage the component will be destroyed.

I've tested it several times now.

So, that being said, here are the implications for the Bloodsworn Colosseum titles:

1. If a Reckless comes into play and a target has already dealt itself 3 damage in the turn the target may not claim Reckless. However, if it deals itself any more damage at all then the condition check will trigger and then it is claimed.

2. If a the third target in a turn being destroyed causes Champion to be played then all 3 targets do count toward the 3 targets in a turn. However, the title cannot be claimed until a another target is destroyed while the title is face-up.

3. Similar timing and triggering applies for Mindbreaker, Chaos Lord, Indiscriminant, and other titles.

Ok, here's where it gets awkward. I tested Rooftop Combat on the app. I used Rook City Wraith to put Rooftop Combat in play. I then dealt 26 damage to Baron Blade in the same round (7,4,5,1,1,6,2). However, the card did not get destroyed. What gives? The following round I dealt 10 damage to Baron Blade the following round and it got destroyed like normal.

So, Rooftop Combat can't be destroyed the same round it's played. I'm not sure why that would be. I know the developers had issues with it looking back during the round, but I don't think this is what they intended.

Sounds like a bug, we'll look into it.

That would be a bug, we'll look at it.

All things track backwards except Omnitron's components and Rooftop Combat (which are treated as if they had "since this card entered play" text, but those cards are already overly full of text). They start counting HP once they enter play. So, yes, you can claim Titles as they enter play if you did the required action THAT turn. And yes, Coolant Blast does count any applicable damage that was dealt before it entered play.

I hope this is more helpful than it is confusing.

Christopher is back!  Woo!

And yes, I think that this is helpful.

So Titles look backward, Components and rooftop combat do not.

What other cards share that wording in the game?

It would be good to have a list.

Also: "Yeah!  Finally, my initial reaction ends up in line with the official ruling!"

This must be what it feels like to be Ronway.

Depends, are you wearing pants?

Sadly there are toddlers in the house, so pants are currently being worn.

It makes sense that the components don't look backward because they are worded "When Omnitron IS dealt" which implies future damage. Coolant Blast specifies "Dealt to Absolute Zero since the end of your last turn." I can see how a title's condition could be met since some of them specify "this turn."

I assume “Omnitron’s Components” also applies to Omnitron-X?

I would expect so, however I think it's unlikely he'd take damage and play a component in the same turn (as opposed to villain Omnitron whose component damage is checked across the entire round).

Chaos Lord says hi.

He is Omnitron, he has components.

Vengeance Baron Blade's Omni-Blade sheds a single tear.

So can you put Stonejaw under whoever you want as soon as it comes out, because every Target entered play at some point in the game?

Ooh, good one.

Christopher wrote:

So, yes, you can claim Titles as they enter play if you did the required action THAT turn.

Yeah, but Christopher contradicted himself.  He said the cards track backwards and then he also tossed out that "that turn".  Did he mean that Stonejaw was another special case, in that it should have said "... this turn" on it?

Death Caller also has no time frame for it's effect.  I think it is safe to put them all in the "this turn" limit of backwards compatability.

Otherwise you are talking about tracking from the beginning of the game, and do you go with the first target to qualify or the latest?

I would say that Stonejaw and Death Caller, and any card that doesn't mention "this turn" or "this round", don't track backwards, because they're not counting anything, and therefore there's nothing to track.

I would say that Stonejaw and Death Caller, and any card that doesn't mention "this turn" or "this round", don't track backwards, because they're not counting anything, and therefore there's nothing to track.

That is certainly the intent.

Just to clarify: do the title cards need to trigger in this way or is that just a "bug" in the app, and titles like Reckless, Chaos Lord etc. go under a target the moment they are flipped (if the requirement has already been met that turn)?

If more than one target has met that requirement that turn, do you pick the target that met that requirement first?

Also, Mindbreaker. If Mindbreaker definitely "looks back" at all damage dealt to all in a round, I will probably always house rule that it has an invisible "since this card entered play" text. Sometimes too much recollection=too much mind breaking.

j1hopki1: We have been unable to reproduce the problem in the current development version, so it looks like the problem has been fixed along the way. Please try it out again when the next update is available.