Wager Master rules question

Ok, just got my pre-order of WotC, and was looking at the Wager Master Enemy Deck.

I saw the card "Breaking the Rules".

It is a ongoing card that states:

"The phases of Heo turns now go in nthe following order:

   End of Turn

   Draw a Card

   Use a Power

   Play a Card

   Start of Turn"

I am confused about how this affects the game. Does this mean that the players turn starts then passes to the next player, whose turn doesn't start until after the draw/power/play phases? This seems to me to be a card that will lock down the heros and hand the game to the villain. What am I missing here?

To me it reads as you first do any end of turn card text, then you draw a card, use a power, play a card, then any start of turn text.

Okay, I can see that. Guess I was taking "End of Turn" too literally, meaning your turn ends before it even begins :P

Guess it helps to have more than 4 hours sleep before trying to undertand Wager Master.....

On a positive note, I think Guise may be my new favorite hero!

Yeah, if your turn ended during the End of Turn phase, Unity would be very sad. Your turn only ends after the End of Turn phase!

But this card helps a lot of heroes including wager masters nemesis Guise.  With all the ongoings in his deck and others that destroy themselves at the start of the turn, they can now stay in effect until they are done destroying the villains with them.  Not to mention the whole drawing before you do anything else adds a little more strategy to things.  I think it is kind of a fun concept.

They still have a Start of Turn phase while Breaking the Rules is in play, it is located after the Play Phase. So if Guise plays one of his ongoings while Breaking the Rules is in play, that card will be destroyed on the very next phase. So it actually makes it a lot more difficult to play as Guise, as he can't use his Ongoings without out of turn plays and/or Fixed Point.

It works if you time it right.  If you play the ongoings the turn before Breaking the Rules comes into play, and then destory it with Retcon when your turn rolls around, you can skip the start of turn for one turn, and get double use out of his stuff.

That said, if Breaking the Rules comes out at the wrong time and you can't get rid of it, it will really ruin your day.

And if you can get Into the Stratosphere to be played on Guise's turn (which is tricky, but possible), then you could potentially net 3 rounds of use.

It's pretty fun to destroy it with your card play so the turn goes back to normal and you get second power and draw phases!

Since you haven't yet used a power or played a card by the time your draw phase comes around, there's 2 cards in hand.

What happens when a Condition is destroyed through other means than damage?  Is it flipped or discarded?

If you mean when it is face down, then it is put into the trash. If you are asking about when it is still face up, they cannot be destroyed, so nothing will happen.

What if they are on their side?

Then you're building a castle made of cards.

Is the castle indestructible?

So you CAN destroy them when they're face down?  We weren't sure and just left them to accumulate.

Yes, but there aren’t too many cards that can destroy a villain card with no other keywords.

Argent Adept's Cedistic Dissonant is the only one I can think of.

Waits for list of cards I have forgotten to be posted

Presumably you could use Into the Stratosphere to move a face-down card to the top of the deck since it's still a villain card, and then get the Visionary or someone to get rid of it from there? I seem to recall some issues being discussed regarding GloomSpite's drug cards and whether they could be dealt with that way but I can't remember how it turned out.

Huh, ok, thanks!

End of Days aswell.

Gloom Spite it wasn't a big thing because moving to the top got the card played face-up, and putting it into the trash put it right back into play (Drug card text).  You had to put it on top then move it to the botom to get rid of it.

Can you use the same power again in this case since it's a separate power phase?  Or is it per turn?

And I'm thinking Grappling Hook when Wraith has Utility Belt out.  Wouldn't that result in being able to use 4 powers in one turn?

Powers are per turn, so no using the same power twice just because time went back to normal. But 4 different powers off of Utility belt, perfectly possible.

On Wager Master's other side, yes. On the side he starts on, face down villain cards are specifically called out as indestructible in his character card text.

Hold on, does this card mean if the last player destroys it that the turn order reverses back and the players get to go again?

If that happens to Playing Dice with the Cosmos (which reverses the player order) and not the card being discussed Breaking the Rules (which reverse the order of the phases in a turn), yes you could have two (or more if you were reallly trying hard) turns for each hero!

You can't destroy Playing Dice with the Cosmos.   It is a condition card and on both sides for Wager Master are indestructible.   The only way you get rid of it is while it's face down on his flipped side but even then that wouldn't allow you to flip turn order again since when you destroyed it normal tun order would be occurring. 

So let me try to wrap my head around this (man they nailed the flavor): 

1) breaking the rules is in play

2) on tachyon's turn, she uses power and draws a card. 

3) on her play phase, she plays blinding speed destroying breaking the rules

4) does she get a second power phase and draw another card?

Yes, however it should be noted that she would draw 2 cards on her first draw phase, as it's unlikely that she had played a card or used a power yet.

Wait, that works?  You get a double draw even if you plan on playing/powering later?  That's brilliant!

The game looks back. It doesn't look forward.

Has this been confirmed? I was planning on ruling it as "you can only draw two if you don't plan on using a power/playing a card".

Interesting take, but my inclination is that if you choose to draw two, you chose to not use a power or play a card during the power and play phases. I could see it going the other way, certainly. Since an End of Turn effect could absoutely let you play or power under standard rules.

Rule book says:

Additional card draw: If, for any reason, a player neither plays a card nor uses a power on their turn, then they may draw an additional card during their draw phase. If, by contrast, a player skips their turn for any reason, they have skipped every phase of their turn and cannot draw any cards.

Seems a bit ambuiguous to me how that affects Wager Master.  But taking Greywind's point  into account, I think he and Ronway are correct.

The second sentence of that rule reminds me that most "skip your turn" costs happen during the Start Phase.  So you could take your whole (backwards) turn, and *then* "skip your turn".  Cool!

Yeah, I would think that by drawing two you are choosing to skip your play and power phase.

As far as "game looks back", I agree, which is why I went and read the rulebook and verified the wording wasn't something along the lines of "if you haven't played a card or used a power...". The wording, as it is, makes me believe that you would look back during your play phase, and find that you had locked yourself out of playing a card by drawing 2 cards in the draw phase.

Like I said, I can see it going the other way under review, but right now I'm comfortable with how I'd handle it.

How about Prayer of Desperation? "Immediately end your turn" takes you to the End of Turn phase =)

Skipping forward and looking forward aren't the same things at all.

Prayer makes you skip to the end phase. No choice if you play the card.

The rules state that if you have not used a power or played a card, then during your draw phase you can draw an additional card. Now, with the turn order reversed, you haven't had a chance to play a card or use a power, so you would draw two, go on and, hey, you can use a power now, and then go on to play your card.

Nowhere does it state on Wager-Master's card that if you draw two cards that you skip to your Start of Turn phase.

Right. He was just saying that you jump to the END of your turn. Not the start. The end. So you get your whole turn all over again.

. . .

Very good point MigrantP.

I'm going to change my position, you would draw 2.  Prayer of Desperation would fill your hand, and move you to the end of your turn, skipping the phases in between, and cause you to start your reverse turn again.  With that I would agree that you don't look forward.

Talk about backwards.

Scholar would be even worse, drawing 9 cards, using 2 powers and 1 non know when to hold fast card play.

Unless of course you had multiple copies and an almost empty deck. . .

A legit infinite loop?

It wouldn't do much without some DDA and Proverbs and Axioms shenanigans, and since your turn doesn't end powers are still once per copy, but drawing and playing know when to hold fast could happen forever.

In my mind immediately end your turn means you skip the rest of it it doesn't take you at the end of turn phase but if I'm wrong that means I always played mist-fuelled recovery wrong as I thought it prevented you to use the star shield necklace that turn.

It means to go to your end of turn phase.

Yes, the official meaning of Skip the rest of your turn is "Go directly to your end of turn phase."

It sounds like the playtest should have turned up that that particular card was not nearly verbose enough in how it tells you to use it.

For my purposes, it'll be draw one card unless you choose to skip power and play, and things that end your turn will still push you into exiting your turn (triggering your start of turn cards in the process). Not sure I'll change that even in light of an "official ruling".

The problem for playtesters is those definitions have been known in the forums for a long time now.  Us playtesters see those wordings and largely know what they mean, and how to use them, so there really isn't a lot of confusion, and when there is confusion usually someone knows the answer, or eventually Christopher smoke bombs in and gives us a ruling.

Mini-Expansions play around with the rules a lot more than regular decks, and Guise and Wager-Master much more than others.  They weren't very easy to balance and they aren't clean cut when it comes to having them be easy to pick up, read cards and understand the nuances of rule interactions.

Also from eveything we've seen I'd say following official rulings and playing "the right way" isn't a big priority of the game's creators.  So go play and have fun.  We can give you rulings and arguments about them, but your group your game your rules.  Wager Master is intentionally Fiddly and game-breaking.  That is the whole schtick behind the deck, so don't be too worried about it.

Yeah, for me the issue with that paticular card is playing it in a way that makes it feel like it's reversing our turns, as opposed to way that makes it feel like a gigantic rules artifact. Oddly, Fixed Point from Time Cataclysm does not trigger the same feelings in me :)

I'm certainly not married to playing games "the right way" myself, but usually in Sentinels the "feels right to me" lines up well with "officially the right way". :) I think right now Ambuscade is the only one I don't play by the rules.

And thats totally ok! A lot of people on the forums house rule things they do not like and tweak things to make things fit better for their own purposes. 

We spend a lot of time on the forums trying to figure out exactly how cards are intented to work so we can work out official answers. For me, I am a strong proponent of playing games as they were designed and intended and spend a lot of my forum time debating rulings and opinions until we tease out official answers or come to popular consensus on how things are supposed to work. It's helpful for other gamers who share my sensibilities on that front, but don't feel pressured to use official rulings if you feel theres a better solution for your group.

immediately end your turn brings you to the end of turn phase. Skip the rest of your turn skips everything, bringing it to the next turn's start of turn.

Edit: Fixed some typos, because I cannot type on tiny keyboards for the life of me.

Honestly, I usually draw 1, but that's just because I hadn't ever thought about it.

Reading the exact wording of the rules, I would be inclined to say that the extra card draw would prohibit you from playing or using a power. It says, "if the hero DOES NOT play a card nor use a power..." not, "if the hero HAS NOT played a card nor used a power..."

So, by my interpretation at least, getting the extra card draw would commit you to not playing or using a power. But, then again, the name of the card is Breaking the Rules. So... whatever. However you want to do it. Roll a bluff check.

Have you used a power? No? Have you played a card? No? Then draw two cards.

If the rulebook were written that way, sure. But with "If you neither play a card nor use a power, you may draw two cards instead of one", I'm perfectly content to look backwards in the power phase and the play phase, and say you're locked in by your earlier choice.

If it said "if you didn't draw a card or use a power", I'd be content the other way.

Certainly not open-and-shut, and I'm influenced by my desire to not have the card feel overly mechanical, vs. thematic.

So wait, what's the consenus here? Draw two cards at the draw phase, provided you have not used a power or played a card? In the case of Master Wager's card, I would say you wouldn't be able to do either after the "draw a card" phase, since you've decided to do neither. I can see how people would argue the other way, but it seems fairer to stop at two and call it a turn.

By the way, even outside of Wager Master's deck, I can see a scenario in which there would cause confusion.

Guise-Blatant Reference

Captain Cosmic-Dynamic Siphon on Legacy

Legacy decides to not use a power or draw a card. During his draw phase, he draws two. At the end of his turn, Guise uses Blatant Reference to deal the Dynamic Siphon, enabling Legacy to use a power. Would he be allowed to? It would be after the power and draw phase, just in time before their turn would end.

Yes, that Guise/Legacy example seems to have the exact same issue, so however you answer one, your other answer should be similar.

Personally, I'm in the camp of "Yes, you can draw 2" (and Legacy in your example could use a power).

I think the concensus is "it doesn't really matter, do what you want."

…which is fine for tabletop.  If Wager-Master ever comes to the App, a definitive answer will be needed.

Fixed it for you.

So right now I'm going with "if you can somehow use powers after the power/play phase and decide to draw 2, you can if you want."

Unless official word says otherwise, that's what I'll go with.