30 posts · 761 views · started 2014-11-19 03:50 UTC
MA
Matchstickman
2014-11-19 03:50 UTC
#1
So one of the things we learned tonight in the Handelabra stream was that the App pulled the minions in the trash out in a set order, no hero choice was involved when Forced Deployment went off.
The Handelabra guys said it was 'legit' and I've no reason to doubt them but I wondered, how do the rest of you handle it?
I usually leave the Guards for last but beyond that...
PH
phantaskippy
2014-11-19 04:44 UTC
#2
I just pull them from the trash in whatever order they are in.
MI
MigrantP
2014-11-19 05:04 UTC
#3
According to our discussions with Christopher they come out from top to bottom.
SP
Spiff
2014-11-19 05:53 UTC
#4
Isn't the order of items in the trash meaningless and you can look through it or rearrange them however you want because it doesn't matter?
MC
McBehrer
2014-11-19 06:01 UTC
#5
No. I actually confirmed with Christopher at Gathering of Heroes that you cannot rearrange the order of the trash.
It matters for things like Ironclad Maintainence Bay.
MI
MigrantP
2014-11-19 13:14 UTC
#6
Yep, you can look through the trash but you cannot rearrange it.
RA
Rabit
2014-11-19 13:42 UTC
#7
For Forced Deployment, I honestly had always shuffled - for some reason I thought it called for that. Probably an assumption on my part from not actually reading many of the cards in so long…
DO
Donner
2014-11-19 14:49 UTC
#8
I think I did the same, Rabit. I blame Citzen Dawn.
SI
Silverleaf
2014-11-19 15:29 UTC
#9
I blame Ronway.
RA
Rabit
2014-11-19 15:36 UTC
#10
Yeah, but you always blame Ronway.
Not that you're wrong to do so. Just pointing out the obvious. It's my thing.
SP
Spiff
2014-11-19 18:12 UTC
#11
OK, I'll two updates to the FAQ -- you can look at the trash but not rearrange it, and Forced Deployment moves minions into play from top to bottom.
MA
Matchstickman
2014-11-19 18:34 UTC
#12
I guess the question now is, does this also apply to other cards which bring things out of the trash without shuffling? e.g. Darken the Skies, Relic Spirit, Ruins of Malediction etc.
PY
Pydro
2014-11-19 18:38 UTC
#13
…rage quitting…
KI
Killswitch
2014-11-19 19:06 UTC
#14
Logic would follow that this is indeed the case.
I love how well the app is covering all these rulings for us
MC
McBehrer
2014-11-19 19:34 UTC
#15
That being said, I will probably not do that in my games. Then we'll just start meta-gaming what order to kill things in to optimize what order they come out, and that isn't fun for anyone. It'll just be shuffle and deal for us.
TH
thewagon
2014-11-19 21:23 UTC
#16
So just to be clearer for me, this means last in (to the trash) first out?
MI
MigrantP
2014-11-19 22:39 UTC
#17
Correct.
KI
Killswitch
2014-11-20 02:05 UTC
#18
Good call. Turning anything into a meta-game is the opposite of fun.
AM
Ameena
2014-11-20 13:06 UTC
#19
For stuff like the Relic Spirit, though, it just says "move a relic from the trash into play" - it doesn't specify it has to be the topmost relic ;). But for stuff that brings out "all of the things", like Forced Deployment, I think I do just put them out in the order they're already in. In some cases with Darken the Sky I just move the whole pile of Fowl from the trash into the play area but leave it as-is if I know they're all about to get nuked again before having a chance to do anything :).
AL
AlexxKay
2014-11-20 16:10 UTC
#20
Is there an optimum order? One rarely has any long-term foreknowledge of when Forced Deployment will trigger. Without knowing what the board situation will be when FD triggers, how can you know what the "optimum" order will be?
I suppose there's the edge case of using some effect to put a large number of minions in Voss' Trash "at the same time" WHILE a Forced Deployment is in play that you plan to destroy this round AND you know exactly what the environment is going to do. But that doesn't seem like the sort of thing that will happen often enough to matter.
…OK, now I've challenged myself. Let's see if I can think of such a scenario.
For the order to matter, the order has to make a big swing in the outcome. Everyone's down to their last few HP, so things look desperate. The Environment deck is down to its last two cards and we know what they are, and their order (thanks to Visionary). The next one is innocuous, but the final one will kill us all. Sadly, we don't see a way to quite kill Voss this round. Haka has many minions under Savage Mana. The Savage Mana hit isn't enough to kill Voss, but would bring him low enough that we should be able to kill him next round – if we live that long. So we're going to Savage Mana even though FD is about to trigger. Legacy has Heroic Interception out and Next Evolution protecting him from several of the minions that do AoE. As long as that Heroic Interception stays up, the team doesn't die. But there's an AOE minion whom Legacy isn't immune to in the mix, that will kill Legacy when it triggers, so it has to go last, "hit" everyone but Legacy first, then kill Legacy as the last thing Voss does on the (hopefully penultimate) turn.
So, it's definitely possible for it to matter, but I still maintain that it's not worth worrying about the vast majority of the time.
GR
grysqrl
2014-11-20 16:15 UTC
#21
If you look very closely at Hairtrigger Reflexes, you'll see that the real flavor text is "Order most certainly matters."
PY
Pydro
2014-11-20 16:30 UTC
#22
It doesn't have to be that complicated: Tachyon has her redirect ready, and there is a minion that can deal 3 damage and target her. If that target goes first, she can protect herself and destroy a target that will attack later (possibly saving 10 hp in a 5 player game), if it doesn't target Tachy first, she can only protect herself, while everyone takes damage (the AoE attacks only deal 2 damage).
DO
Donner
2014-11-20 17:26 UTC
#23
Or Hairtrigger Reflexes, Galvanize, Inspiring Presence, and Gene-Bound Guards. Guards coming out first defeats insta-kills of any others coming out.
GR
Greywind
2014-11-20 19:49 UTC
#24
An optimum order for Forced Deployment? Yes. Absolutely. It's the first card Voss plays in the game. Don't eliminate any of his minions until it triggers.
PY
Pydro
2014-11-20 19:53 UTC
#25
Unless Haka can play two cards and throw down a Savage Mana and Rampage.
Or if Bunker plays Ammo drop, get twice as many cards.
MC
McBehrer
2014-11-20 22:30 UTC
#26
Plus there's the issue of what order they do damage, which would change which targets they hit, therefore changing the amount of damage dealt and other variables, such as heroes reacting to taking damage.
PH
phantaskippy
2014-11-21 04:52 UTC
#27
This ruling might apply to prison break as well, the wording isn't the same, but similar enough that it might be treated the same way.
MA
Matchstickman
2014-11-21 09:21 UTC
#28
Er... Prison Break is from the deck, not trash.
P2
Powerhound_2000
2014-11-21 12:49 UTC
#29
Prison Break pulls Underbosses from the trash. The Operative pulls Underbosses from the deck.
MA
Matchstickman
2014-11-21 13:14 UTC
#30
D'Oh! Thinking of Prison Riot. Curse you too similar names!