The Operative and Comic Issue Issues

Check out the flavor text for Naturalists Resilient Hide.

Thats a quote from the Operative after injuring Naturalist slightly. But check the issue number. Freedom Five #723! That is one of the highest issue numbers for that comic we have seen.

What is she still doing running around so late in the series? The Chairman arch seemed taken care of much ealier on. This indicates that the Organization has its fingers in much more than just chemical dealings from Pike. 

I want to say that issue of Freedom Five is right after the "Cosmic Concurance" series of events, as KNYFE seems to be in space toward the end of the #600's 

It also seems like the early 700 issues see a rise of activity from Citizen Dawn as the main focus of attention.

Since Dawn and Operative are known to be fighting around the early 700's, is Operative working for Dawn after the Organization fell? Is the Organization involved with FILTER or REVOCORP?

I really wish there was a way to place the "Cosmic Concurance" and "Terminus" story archs in a timeline with the Freedom Five issues, but I seem lost.

After hearing that Christopher said we all are asking the wrong questions, lets start asking the right ones.

That HAS to start with constructing the timeline of known events. Figuring out where all the mini series issues fall into the timeline might be impossible without outside help, but constructing a timeline will help give context of the story and lend itself to better predictions.

Where can we start?

with this pre vengeance spreedsheet by logan_mann

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aq5Clu8S_TcHdERaNzVPSkFlY3M4bVlZZ0dYbnNpUUE#gid=0

get that updated for vengeance and we have a place to really start

We already know that jumping from one timeline to another is possible, who's to say that Operative isn't from a timeline where the Chairman won?

I do not think jumping timelines is such an easy thing for anyone to do. 

Iron Legacy, in his timeline, and really the only true "alt" timeline we have seen (final wasteland aside, we do not know if that is an "alt" timeline or just the possible future of all of them), noticed the dimensional rifts and used his extraordinary powers to try and cross over to extend his reach of influence (correct me if I am wrong Christopher!)

I highly doubt the Operative has the ability to cross those planes herself without a lot of help. Plus, that late and in the core Freedom Five issues, I do not think they would be set in an alt timeline. Those are the core stories here.

[...]noticed the dimensional rifts and used his extraordinary powers to try and cross over to extend his reach of influence (correct me if I am wrong Christopher!)

Er, not exactly. He certainly fell through a rift in time. That said, VERY very few characters are able to travel through time/alternate dimensions at will. Most are accidental. A few are purposeful, but even those are barely controlled and not with any sort of real accuracy.

Hope that helps... but not too much.

*grin*

Oh yes, I remember a conversation about this!

Christopher, do the heros/villains fall into similar "rifts" to reach the Realm of Discord? Or is that a whole separate beast with its own rules separate from the rifts of time?

Realm of Discord is different - that tends to get jump-started by, say, cultists or nega-demons, or other arcane elements.

The two unknown proper nouns being quoted in the flavor text of Apostates deck. Are those nega-demons? Or are we talking more along the lines of Portal Fiends?

Wew're talking GloomWeaver. Those two names in Apostate's deck are just the Imp Pilferer and the Fiendish Pugilist's proper names.

Yeah, but the whole Fanatic/Apostate thing is so not clear at this point and there has been very little in the way of clues trying to put that story together. I thought maybe Apostates Demonic forces might be tied somehow to the Realm of Discord, but thats more of just trying to make connections with what I have in front of me.

Are we sure they are names for the Pugilist and Pilferer? No reason to doubt it really, but just seems odd

Apostate and his "demons" are not related to the Realm of Discord.

I have the power to jump-start the Realm of Discord! Woohoo! Now whenever I play Sentinels, I will start randomly chucking in Realm of Discord effects.

Why did you put quotes around demons... That's what they're called... Unless they just aren't actually demons...

... Is Apostate the Cosmic Being's servant/creation? That would explain in his backstory, where he said he and fanatic were created.

Second question: is the cosmic entity on Mists of Time the same being as the one on Reveal the Flaws?

Assuming Fanny and Appley-Dappley are not created by Bill CosBe, it'd be neat if the last expansion (after Wrath of the Cosmos) had some sort of a religious theme (preferably something beyond "God and Satan Exist, Suck It Bitches!", though that much would be acceptible in a comics context) and revealed the origins of these two and of the demons (as well as of any angels which might exist, who have for whatever reason not allied themselves with Fanatic as the demons did with Apostate).  Possibly also the Relics in their decks.  Possibly also ALL Relics, if they all have a common origin.  Maybe the myths of God and Satan are passed down from a time when two great Atlantean lords, or aliens, or who knows what else, one of them "good" and one of them "evil" (though doubtlessly the "evil" one thinks of himself as simply a different definition of "good", and the "good" one is probably kind of a dick, a la the Vorlons in B5 or "Bill" the Archangel in Proposition Player), walked the earth and battled each other openly, creating "holy" and "unholy" devices and setting plans in motion which are only now coming to fruition.

No. No no no.

The box art has the symbol on the silver things head on it. They are probably connected, but not the same.

But Apostate as the "it sends its servant"? That is very possible. The Apostate/Fanatic connection is strongly hinted at but there are no real clue to help build a narrative around. Probably because doing so would give away the ending!

I respectfullg disagree.

Lets look at the evidence, shall we?

a) What other 'Planet Sized' beings are we aware of? Akash'Bhuta. We know her size can vary  - In Mists of time in the slice right before the entity, we have her face filling up the entire side of the planet. Likely she is projecting herself against whatever cosmic entites are facing the planet. She may be an enemy because she is Chaos Incarnate, but she is also part of the spirit of Earth, which makes sense that it would fight against cosmic agression

b) Akash size changes. Mists of time, she is as big as a planet. Moutainous Carapace, her eyes are as big as the heroes.( not as big as entire countries) Just Doin' My Job, she is smaller than Jim as he shoots her. Depending on circumstances her size  changes - possibly in response to threats/damage.

so we have established that cosmic entites can change shape/size. Now lets look at the one on Mists of Time

1) It may be a stylized represnation of the being extending its influence to earth. It does not meant his is the beings actual size. If that were its actual size th ere would be nothing the heroes could do to fight it directly - it likely must shrink down in order to invade the planet itself.

2) Being stylized it seems that the entity is made up of a sort of misty outline filled with stars. There is no way to tell if it has the Symbol on its forehead or not. It simply doesn't have enough form. Should it shrink itself down to fight on the planet, ie in Reveal the Flaws, there is no reason to think that it might not get its symbol then.

Their is a third explination of course, in which we both are correct.

The smaller being on Reveal the Flaws is the avatar of the cosmic entity on Mists of time. In which some might call it a servant, but it is possible that it is just its planetary representation and the symbol is the connection to the remainder of the entity in the cosmos.  This is, in my minds, the most likely scenario - it must have some kind of avatar to invade the planet for whatever sinister purposes. If it was just a servant, it would be more like Silver Surfer, and defeating it would have no relveance to defeating the main entity - which is bigger than entire planets. If it is an avatar, then defeating it would mean the entity must gather more strength before it can attempt to walk the planet again, because of whatever comic book restriction keeps it from simply crushing earth in the palm of its hand.

The evidence needed is that the Cosmic Entity wont show up till the last expansion, and that silver thing on Reveal the Flaws is strongly connected to the artwork for this next expansion. 

I think it is directly connected to the Cosmic Entity, but it is not the entity itself.

Remember the art connection between Matriarch and Reveal the Flaws? That they both take place in the same location and probably close to the same time? They are both outside of the torn down Windmill thing right? What if, as Matriarch is channeling and unleashing her birds/power on our heros, she channels something entirely unexpected? Christopher said she has WAY more power than she even knows about. That combined with my speculation about Matriarchs powers/mask having a direct connection to the cosmic entity has me thinking. Did her powers create/summon this thing accidently?

So the thing with the silver thing on its head is a herald. Like the Silver Surfer.

Maybe.

Theres also a case to be made that Apostate might be the servant sent. His story is far from wrapped up.

The silver thing may not be related to the cosmic entity at all you know. It might stricktly be a Scholar/Hermetic ordeal. Though that would not properly explain Captain Cosmic's presence on Reveal the Flaws.

We still have a bunch of pieces missing.

Could be a golem.

Where was that stated officially? I thought that was just fan conjecture. 

No official statment, but if you are not saving the Big Bad of the multiverse for the final showdown, then what has this entire story arch been building towards? It is a guess, but a pretty well reasoned one. 

how do we know that the cosmic entity is the big bad? It could be a false big bad to distract the heroes for something far worse…

Okay. But only a few things lead to the Big Bad being this cosmic entity. Iron Legacy was also a Big Bad and he didnt even make a Mega Expansion. Baron Blade is most certainly a Big Ban, the only villain with 3 different forms (adn 2 decks) so again, could be a Big Bad.

I don't see why you'd have a Cosmic Entity as a Big Bad and not include it in the Cosmic set. :) Each set is a story arch in some ways, and no reason why it /couldn't/ be in there too. 

Its good conjecture, but I don't think its enough to call it  'evidence'

And if that twist happens, I'll be grabbing my popcorn with everyone else!

But if a massivly powerful cosmic being who has his tendrils wrapped around the whole time continuum isn't the most pressing issue our heros end up facing this arch, I have no clue what would be.

I don't see why you'd have a Cosmic Entity as a Big Bad and not include it in the Cosmic set. :) Each set is a story arch in some ways, and no reason why it /couldn't/ be in there too. 

Sure each expansion is a part of smaller archs. There are tons of stories and sideplots. But the >G crew have said that the card game as a singular whole represents one major story arch. And from the very very begining, this far away cosmic entity has been at the forefront of a LOT of foreshadowing (lets not forget the shadow of Apostate found in Nightmists deck hints at a future yet to come as well).

I am not saying it cant be possible. I just dont think its likely.

The first I recall hearing about a cosmic entity was during the Infernal Relics kickstarter, with the release of Cosmic Omnitron.

I don't think it is either, but I wanted Christopher to answer one way or the other. You know... asking the right questions, and what not.

My guess is that the Cosmic Being ends up a minor character from an environment deck.  That would be hilarious with all the time we've spent building it up into a big deal.

Also

"God and Satan Exist, Suck It Bitches!"

I imagine Fanatic paying for a billboard that says this.

At this point, its either going to culminate with the Cosmic Entity or with whoever is running FILTER. The two are connected in some way. FILTER is 100% aware of the breakdown of the time continuum, KNYFE's bio tells us as much. Whatever their stake is here, its not going to line up with the goals of our heros. 

My money's on FILTER being the big bad. 

Is that probably dead guy on the stairs on The Operative’s character card the same one on "Final “Dive?”

I'd say unlikely, based entirely on the implication that the Operative was the one who killed him, and generally speaking that means he was either good- or neutral- aligned; opposed to the villain, or at least on her bad side, either way. Whereas Fanatic, being a hero, only targets evil-aligned people, so wouldn't go after someone unless they were against HER, and it's unlikely that such an unimportant background character would be both opposing the Operative AND considered evil by Fanatic.

Plus it's a pretty generic design, so there's not much there to compare, honestly.

Or evil-aligned, but not part of The Organization, and not amenable to cooperation therewith (or likely to betray such cooperation).  Villains seldom have any trouble finding reasons to fight other villains.

The final boss will be Baron Blade. The big bad cosmic entity will reveal itself, and then Baron Blade whips out a device and YOINK - got your power source!

Total classic comics moment.

I do hope you're wrong - that would be SO lame.  Not everything (or even most things) about the Electrum Ages of Comics is worth emulating.  (Mind you, I don't think the...um...apparently you can't alloy bronze and iron so I'll just call it Gunmetal, even though that doesn't have iron in it...age is inherently better or anything....old comics were campy and dumb, new ones are gritty and also-dumb in a thoroughly different way, and non-dumbness has more to do with the skill of an author than the current industry trends.  But overall, I for one can tolerate modern dumbness a little more easily than the Comics-Code-era kind, though emphasis on "little".)

You do know that Benhimself is referencing a pretty classic Fantastic Four storyline, right? I mean, it formed the basis for the entire plot of the second F4 movie…

And, for the record, that’s decidedly Silver Age:
Golden Age = Origin of Superman through WW2.
Silver Age = Comics Code Institution through appx. 1970 (Denny O’Neil starts writing Batman and Green Lantern/Green Arrow)
Bronze Age = appx 1970 until either 1983 (Claremont’s run on X-men) or 1986 (The Dark Knight Returns is released)
Iron/Dark Age = 1980s until 1996 (Marvel bankruptcy and speculators’ crash)
Electrum/Modern Age = 1996 till now.

Yes.  It may have been "classic", but that's not the same as it being "good".

I mean, it formed the basis for the entire plot of the second F4 movie…

Which was terrible even by my extremely low standards for sci-fi movie quality.

And, for the record, that's decidedly Silver Age:

I suspected as much, I was just hedging my bets by saying "gold or silver".

Electrum/Modern Age = 1996 till now.

Never heard of this.  I said "electrum" because it's a gold and silver alloy.  The modern age ought to be Silicon or Chromium or something.

I won't attempt to defend the mediocre-at-best F4: Rise of the Silver Surfer, though the problems with that movie were much deeper than the simple use of the power-theft plot point.  

Regardless, the idea of "stealing powers" is a pretty common comics trope:  Doctor Doom trying to steal the Silver Surfer's powers, Rogue stealing Ms. Marvel's powers, the entire character of Parasite (in Superman's rogues' gallery).  The potential concept of Baron Blade trying to steal some cosmic power is entirely within the wheelhouse of the comics genre, particularly considering his obsession with Legacy's powers and his attempts to replicate said power set.

And the "Electrum" age of comics refers to the concept of blending Golden and Silver Age tropes with the developments in storytelling nuance found in the Iron Age.  However, it is more often referred to as the "Modern" age.

And mine.

"Wrath" is it seems all about space and cosmic menaces (you're not alone, Voss !) - F.I.L.T.E.R, revo corp and all these "institutions" have to have their own "arc". Especially with all the incap heroes who seem to have been captured by them ! And with this little thing in K.N.Y.F.E's bio in the rule booklet about why she left.

Maybe something along the lines of "X-Men vs sentinels" : heroes going rogue against an "authority" who tries to control the planet and its future  -heores included.

I wonder if Wrath will have any Shout Outs to GSF in the same way that GSF has a Shout Out to Sentinels (in the shape of Vognild Prime, formerly Tempest's (or was it Voss's?) homeworld.

I don't know about Wrath, but Sentinels as a whole has already had 3.

Vognild Prime is the Maerynian homeworld.  Dok'Thorath is the Thoratian homeworld.

One of the villains on the box for Wrath has what appears to be a Neo-Elf, so yeah, I'd say there's a definite tie-in there.

I hope that they take it easy with the tie-ins, as I have no interest in GSF, and don't want to be rendered incapable of understanding a SOTM set because it's too reference-loaded (for instance I have no idea what a Neo-Elf is).

Like elves, but newer and with four arms and forearms. They can also walk through walls via dimension-traveling, so I imagine she'll have cards that involve a theme of stealth and/or ambushes. Maybe she'll bring friends, like the freakish aliens we see in Parse's deck. Especially since Parse is fighting the three-headed T-Rex in an arena with a Neo-Elf's face on a banner.

Who is this "we" you speak of?.. 

I agree.  Maybe if I fall in love with the GSF universe I'll feel differently, but right now I'm not particularly interested in getting the GSF chocolate in my SotM peanut butter.

GSF universe, from what I heard at Origins 2013, is the Sentinels universe. Simply thousands upon thousands or so years in the future. It has connections, there are similar things (Vonigald Prime for instance, along with some other things) but has no bearing on the SoTM story. So while us who do like the game will enjoy seeing the references between them, there is nothing that makes them absolutely connected other than a distant time connection.

Yeah, it's the same universe.  It isn't a new universe mashed in to cross-promote.  They made a game using the the Aliens from the same universe.  The tie-ins are natural.

That they timed the cosmic Expansion to be the one after the game that explores those races a bit is not a coincidence.

Lets hold off on saying things are "tie-ins" before we actually know. There is no real way of figuring out if there are Neo-Elves yet because we can't see 4 arms. And I personally have not any other GSF race in the game yet. Isn't this kinda jumping the gun a bit?

A little.  I'm just saying that if you're not particularly in love with space-elves and space-dwarves (cough), then you may [not] be excited about seeing them running around your SotM game.

Why would one be excited to see them if they didn't love them?

The typo notwithstanding, I think you understand my point. ;)

I'm not in love with the whole superhero thing, but it keeps showing up in my SotM game. WHY?????

You need more spandex in your life?

I say she's a Neo-Elf based on her facial structure. We don't need to see the four arms to know that Adam draws Neo-Elf faces a certain way.

One of the villains on the box for Wrath has what appears to be a Neo-Elf, so yeah, I'd say there's a definite tie-in there.

There are no Transdimensional Neo-Elves on the cover of the Sentinels of the Multiverse: Wrath of the Cosmos Expansion.

Lol, I'm not really into superheroes either. I've never even read a single graphic novel, nor do I have any clue who most of the superhero/villain characters are you guys talk about/compare Sentinels characters to. I've seen a few superhero films, years back, but that's about it. And yet I've played multiple games of Sentinels nearly every weekend for about a year and a half now ;).

Perhaps they are regular, space dwelling elves? After all, Humans later go by the name of "Meta-Human", so perhaps the Elves haven't became these "Transdimensional Neo-Elves" yet.

I was thinking Christopher's quote looks suspciously like the misdirecting clues he was threatening to give recently.

Yeah, there's nothing that will convince me that those facial ridges on that woman's face are not those of a space-elf that I have seen Adam draw before. Maybe they aren't Neo-Elves, but they are certainly an ancestor. Classic Christopher, trying to mislead us. We see you. 

Yes, but he knows we know he's tricksy. What if this is a double bluff to make us think we've seen through his schemes?

Well, we can't trust Christopher because he is tricky, so is likely it is an elf.

But anyone who can plan ahead like is necessary in continued production of a game like this has foresight, so he might have expected us to figure out he is tricky, so it likely isn't an elf.

But Christopher is also an English Major, and in English we often use words to look like they say the opposite of what we mean, so it likely is an elf.

But Christopher is a game designer, and the best game designers know when to be straightforward, so it likely isn't an elf.

But Christopher is also a comic book fan, and in comics nothing is ever certain, so it likely is an elf.

. . .

So it's both at once and I've spent some years building up an immunity to iocaine powder...or something ;).

Schrodinger's Elf.

(Also, it's Valentine's Day, so I imagine phantaskippy picking a petal off a daisy with every line of his post.)

Reading this thread lead me to a realization. I will also post this in Phantom's house.

There is a question I don;t think has ever been asked about the Operative. In her character card she is standing in a big room, near a sculpture of the globe with lot's of guys in what looks to be secret service suits lying dead nearby. Where is she?

The globe makes me think multi-national if not international and the guys are defintetly security. Political, corporate, FILTER branch office?

She might be in FILTER. The dead guys around her look MIB-ish. 

Also, there is a shadowy figure standing before The Chairman on his flip side that no ones talked about. Could it be Setback? We know they run into each other at some point by the artwork. 

We do? I don't recall them interacting on the artwork...

"Looking Up" has Setback landing on some of the Chairman's folks, with the Chairman not looking happy about it. That's all I know of…