Skinwalker and Agent of Gloom Flip

One of my favorite parts of Sentinels is the flipping mechanic of the Villains. Not only do they provide variety to the gameplay of the Villains, but they also represent certain twists or progressions to the story, which makes the theme that much better. Some of my favorites would include Baron Blade (Flipping = destroying the Terra-Lunar Impulsion Beam, and then him trying to take revenge), and the Chairman (Flipping = finally finding out (after investigating and investigating) who the mastermind really is).

On this note, I am confused by what the flipping mechanics of Gloomweaver: Skinwalker and Spite: Agent of Gloom represent. For Gloomy, we hit him until he loses that 50HP, and then....what? Did we break a layer or something? I don't get it. For Spite, saving Victims causes him to become a broken vessel? I don't get it. Could someone please explain what they mean, thematically?

While I have no actual basis for either of these theories here are my thoughts/wild speculation.

Spite is an agent of Gloomweaver, Gloomweaver "sundered the veil of death itself!" to resurrect this killer, I don't think Gloomy did this out of the goodness of his shrivelled black heart-like organ. I suspect that Spite is out there killing and/or sacrificing victims either to keep himself going or to the glory of his master. Once the heroes thwart enough of his attacks he either runs dangerously low on the energy keeping him alive or good old Dealbreaker Jones feels he's no longer worthy and cuts him off, either way he's a broken vessel- no longer of any use to Gloomweaver.

Original Gloomweaver's plan was trying to force itself into our realm of reality, with the Skinwalker it doesn't need to, it's already here. I see it goading the heroes into attacking it, performing evil deeds until the heroes have to take direct action against it, and unfortunately releasing it from its skin prison, inflicting the rotting god on the world.

But as I said at the beginning, this is just what's happening in my corner of the multiverse.

OOH, Just remembered that deal I made to keep that mass-murderer alive after death! mm, I feel really bad about that!

I can see the (very very) sound logic of Spite now- good job! Makes sense to me. The Gloomy one, though, I am still iffy. So basically, he's here, but trapped in a shell? That somehow, the heroes destroy, but it was Gloomy's plan all along...? I am confuzzled.

Your mere mortal brain cannot comprehend the schemes of the rotting god, you are merely a puppet for his amusement. Play the game and descend into obsession most perfect.

Then Gloomweaver succeeded a long time ago.

Must

play

Sentinels!

More like his "stable" form got effed up and goes into rampage to be able to keep himself in this plane. Note that Skinwalker has the Pouch of Bones with him, probably needs that.

Yeah, that's what I figure too -- Skinwalker Gloomy's got a mortal shell on his front side, but it's still in the process of powering up.  The first time any non-villain target dies, you play the top card of the deck, which shows that his power is increasing with each death he feeds on.  And at the end of every villain turn he's damaging the lowest hp target, drawing blood and power from the weak.  Then when you finally deal 50 hp of damage, you've cracked the shell and he sheds his skin to reveal the 100 hp monstrosity that bursts through.

As for Agent of Gloom Spite, his flip condition is if there are "H" cards under the Safe House.  That sounds to me like you're racing to deny him victims, and if you do, he flips to his Broken Vessel side, on which he definitely looks like he's seen better days.  On that side, he's in a frustrated frenzy where his damage is increased by 1 for every card under the Safe House, and each time a victim is destroyed, he lets out a howl of triumph which deals each hero 1 psychic damage.  So I think he's gone a little berserk on his flip side in frustration.

How I see it is with Spite he was brought back by Gloomy to cause destruction and chaos, and when the heroes prevent that, he looses the backing of the Gloomy and it causes him to go berserk

With Gloomy it feels like basically the heroes do enough damage to his shell that all his power starts pouring forth and he can no longer control it, and he becomes desperate to keep himself in our realm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhp9Tsw7Oyk

I think of Skinwalkers flip side as 'Stage Two' of the boss fight. You smacked him around enough he's feeling a bit desperate. Time to POWER UP

My opinion?  I don't think Gloomweaver is trying to come into this world, I think he has succeeded.  Not the way he was trying in the original, and it hasn't gone well.

He needs flesh to hold himself together, that skin he is walking in is keeping him from falling apart and dying.  He needs more and more flesh to keep it together, and when the heroes destroy that body he begins spiraling downward, and he's desperate.  He is rotting away and eating anything he can to stay alive.  This is a gamble gone wrong, and the heroes are facing the last acts of a dying god.

Spite is revived to bring victims to Gloomweaver, when the heroes save them the cost of keeping Spite powered starts becoming greater than the reward.  You save enough and Gloomweaver abandons him, and he becomes the broken Vassal.

Do tell…

So basically,  trying to put it all together (for me anyways):

Gloomweaver: On the front side, he/she/it/whatever has just gotten into this world (the art depicts him just getting off a table, presumably the one he was summoned on), and the 'skin' he is using is still an immature shell/cocoon. At this point, he is feeding on death, maturing, growing stronger (as Spiff said, he gets stronger with every death, and he preys on the weak.). Unfortunately for him, the heroes come along and attack him, and the shell starts to break (apparently, the shell has 50HP worth of durability), letting out his "true essence", which I assume is highly unstable because it does not belong in this dimension. Gloomy needs his shell; without it, he starts to rot (hence, rotting god). In a desperate effort to stay around, he starts attacking everything indiscriminately, even feeding on his followers. All the while, that massive true essence of Gloomweaver (worth, apparently, 100HP, which kind of makes sense since he's a god and all) is deteriorating, which explains him attacking all targets, even himself.

Which makes me think: if/when the heroes finally defeat him, here on this plane, with his essence stuck here rotting, does Gloomy cease to exist? Or does he slip back to his own dimension, as these things tend to go? Actually, by the time the heroes break Gloomy's "shell", he loses-he's going to end up consuming the world wildly, trying to stave off the rot, but eventually he will run out and perish. The flip side fight is basically just the heroes trying to contain the Gloomweaver threat, i.e. not letting him consume the world, but essentially, the moment the shell is broken, Gloomy is screwed. I think the best line here, as provided by phantaskippy, is: "This is a gamble gone wrong, and the heroes are facing the last acts of a dying god." (lol sorry, I'm not tech-gifted. Not sure how to block quote it. Hehe.)

Spite: Spite is revived by Gloomweaver to cause death and destruction and gloom (?). The drug cards represent the various powers that slowly become available to Spite as he kills more and more people, blessings as it were from the evil god. However, as the heroes save more and more people (and more importantly, deny him his kills), he loses Gloomy's favor, and so he loses the unholy forces holding his body together, resulting in his Broken Vessel side, at which point he goes berserk. He gets wilder for every victim that eludes him thanks to the efforts of the heroes (+1 damage), and whenever he destroys a victim, he gives an animalistic howl of triumph, disheartening and harming the heroes. On the safehouse/victim side, getting them in the safehouse allows the heroes to draw a card, representing (maybe?) the tiny hint of satisfaction and accomplishment they get for saving people. Alternatively, letting them out of the safehouse to 'run for it' frees them up from having to guard an additional person, allowing them to do more things (play a card).

There are some alternatives. As Matchstickman shared (and actually, I am more inclined towards this explanation), Spite was resurrected by Gloom and made into a sort of self-perpetuating machine (I am not sure this is the best term, but whatever. I hope you get the gist.): a killing machine that stays together by killing more people. The more he kills, the greater his own power becomes, and the more saved by the hero, the less able he is to hold his own body together, leading to the Broken Vessel. Through it all, Gloomy benefits from the general atmosphere of dread and evil and whatnot generated by his pawn. (I prefer this over the theory where Gloomweaver withdraws his support/blessings because Gloomy never struck me as the micromanaging type-I seriously doubt that he would care enough to pay attention to what his agents are doing exactly. Much more likely that he'd just leave his agents to their own devices.)

Which leads to this: if the heroes win, then the Vessel is destroyed and Spite goes back to the grave. Simple enough. But what happens if Spite wins? Is he doomed? Or does he, through the malevolent energy that seems to be produced by killing people, return to his old, unbroken body to continue killing for th glory of Gloom?

Mind you, I do not claim that this is correct. Just trying to put together some of the points that seem to make sense to me, from this thread, from the oversized Villain cards from Spiff's site (Thanks so much Spiff! You rock!), and some of my own thoughts. I'd love an *official* response though.

...

As a side bar, why does Gloomweaver want to break into this world so badly anyway?

My guess: Nachos. The Realms of Discord probably has crappy nachos.

They actually mention that in his bio. He has been worshiped for ages, and he feeds off of the despair and discord of humanity. But he wants more than just the little bit that seeps through the barrier of realms, he wants the whole buffet

of nachos

Nachos of DESPAIR.

Despair.com your online source for demotivational posters.

I don't think it's that abstruse; he's got the five ampules on his belt, so I think the drugs are literally drugs, the same ones that turned him into a Monstrosity before, but now that he's undead, they don't affect him quite the same way.  Why exactly he doesn't have to Raid Labs to find them all I'm not sure, maybe members of Gloomy's cult rounded the correct five drugs up along with his corpse (still wish we knew how he died).  But once he has them, it just takes a bit of time for them to percolate through his necrotic flesh, as long as he retains Gloomy's favor.  When too many Victims have been saved, their hope of survival becomes an affront to Gloomy, and he withdraws the artificial lifeforce he was feeding to Spite, ensuring that additional drugs no longer affect him, though he retains the existing effects, because he's stopped growing as a person, becoming just another static zombie who has nowhere to go but downhill.

(I prefer this over the theory where Gloomweaver withdraws his support/blessings because Gloomy never struck me as the micromanaging type-I seriously doubt that he would care enough to pay attention to what his agents are doing exactly. Much more likely that he'd just leave his agents to their own devices.)

You do have a point there.

Er, where are these ampules (or even belt) that you speak of? I cannot seem to find them on the art, but maybe I'm just blind...

Either way, I think we've left the whole Drugs and Science thing behind, in favor of Creepy Voodoo Magic Of Evil Gods trope.

There are five colorful little tubes on a diagonal sash around his torso (I misspoke calling it a belt).  If you look at his divider art, it becomes obvious that one such tube contains one of his Drugs.

On the original Spite, yes, but we are talking about the Agent of Gloom version...

Of course, I agree that in the original Spite, the drugs are just drugs.

To be clear, what I said (the drugs being representations of evil blessings, yadayadayada) applies only to Agent of Gloom Spite, not the original. Thought that was clear.

Well I'll be danged, I could have sworn.  But no, it appears I was mistaken, he does not have the ampules on his promo card.  I really thought he did.  Nevermind, then.

Just a random question to anyone willing to answer: has anyone managed to have any of AoG-Spite’s drugs flip face down in a game?

Twice, but once was in error. (the error was advanced, and we timed something wrong)

When we did pull it off:  (This Sunday)

(H) was 5, we had Fixer, Tempest, Scholar, Bunker and Wraith.  Opening hands included Stratosphere, Reclaim and infared Eyepiece.  So boom, drug to the bottom of the deck.

Scholar draws DDA, so Tempest and Scholar put Strat back in play round 2, and there were only three drugs in play.  Two rounds later we got 4 victims in the safehouse and worked for four or five more rounds to get to all the drugs face down on the table, then we flipped him.

Second side Spite with 0 drugs face up isn't such a challenge, but once we realized we could do it, we had to try.

I was under the impression that Stratosphere couldn't be played on indestructible cards... Is this incorrect?

You are not wrong.

The idea of using Into the Stratosphere comes from the question "Are cards still indestructible when they are face down?"

And the short answer: no

How did you get all his drugs face down? In reading his card, the best you can do is break even.

At the start of the Villain turn, either there are H cards under the Safe House or he flips a drug face up.

At the end of the Villain turn, if there are more cards in the Safe House than drugs in play, flip a drug face down.

Net effect: the same number of drugs face up as at the start of the turn (unless all drugs were face up at the start of the turn.)

I haven't seen the ruling about face-down indestructible cards, and search didn't help - can you point it out?

We were on normal and got two drugs put on the bottom of his deck. in the first two turns.

We got 4 victims in the safehouse, so there were more victims than drugs face up  (H) was 5, so 4 didn't flip.  Start of turn there wasn't a fourth drug to flip face up, end of turn #3 got flipped face down.

Then with only 2 in play and both face-up the same would occur, none to flip up, one flips down.

We had some come back out, due to shuffling, but they would get flipped down and sent back, and we just kept exactly 4 in the safehouse until we managed to get three drugs in play and all facedown.  Then we flipped.

The other two drugs would have eventually come out of the deck, but that didn't happen for us.

So from what I'm gathering, if I want to have any chance of getting rid of any of Gloomy Spite's drugs then villian manipulation is quite possibly my best bet if not my only one.

PhantaSkippy, I believe it was confirmed that face-down drugs are still indestructible and thus can't be Stratosphered.  So how exactly did you get them back into the deck?

If you look just a few posts above yours, you will see a dissenting opinion

Oh, actually Foote's post was the one I was thinking of, but I misread the question as its opposite, I thought he was saying "no Stratosphere doesn't work".

So how confirmed is his statement?

100% - I don't have the post, but Christopher has stated it works.

What about use of Cedistic Dissonant? It would put the drug in the trash, but does it go face up when you put it in the trash, and hence come back? Or is it still textless?

Christopher's response was that

1.  a face down card has no text so it is not indestructible (unless granted that status by text which is readable)

2.  A face down drug destroyed would go to the trash, but once it leaves the table it is no longer face-down, and it would gofrom the trash into play, where all the normal rules would effect it (except that it would now be face-up)

3.  A face down drug can be stratosphered, but if played from the top of the deck goes right back into play with the other drugs.

So the only way to get rid of a drug is to stratosphere then put it on the bottom of the villain deck.  Although Spite shuffles enough that you can't bury any card for good.

The game we pulld it off a fourth drug came back into play when we fortunately had only 2 face-up, so it flipped face down.