Multiple timelines and awareness

I've been wondering lately about the Iron Legacy timeline.

The main question is how the time cataclysm affected everyone involved, as it could have some potentially huge repercussisons in terms of character development. Theres a huge difference in seeing events unfold and living them, and the events of the IL encounter were grim and difficult on the heroes physically and mentally.  Indeed, some of them lost their lives in the process.  The members of the F6 are ragged, world-weary, and have gone through hell.

that being said, here's the question:  Did it all really happen?

Did Tachyon, during the time cataclysm, actually experience the events that turned her into TL tachyon?  Did she just see them, or hear about them from her older self?  Did she live a lifetime (and a painful one at that) during the cataclysm, and then go back to normal after it was over?  If she did live out the events leading up to Iron Legacy's rise and fall, did she (and all the other heroes) carry those memories afterwards?

This is especially interesting when considering Iron Legacy himself.  Did he witness his possible future, or did he actually experience all of that loss and madness?  Was there a small, self-aware part of himself that railed against the deeds he committed?  If he actually lived those events, how did it change him afterwards?  How did it change the team's perception of him?

I think the timelines all happen independently of one another, so the Tachyon we all know and love doesn't become Team Leader Tachyon, TLT is in an alternate timeline that could've happened to regular Tachyon but didn't, and the reverse is also true.

DAMN YOU!

This is almost exactly the question I was going to ask Christopher when he was in the UK this weekend.

As far as I can work out both timelines happened, it is a multiverse after all. However something else is mucking around in the multiverse, making it possible for the Iron Legacy timeline to invade our own timeline (His justification is bringing justice everywhere), the big question is when, before or after Legacy dies in our timeline?

If it's after then at first it's a joyous reunion for some people that quickly goes sour, it it's before then does Legacy get to see what could happen in his own future, and if so now he knows it's coming does he try to prevent both his death and his daughter's at the hands of Blade or does he go into the situation knowing he will die but content in the knowledge that his death prevents Pauline's?

EDIT: Is this why he has grey hair in Tatics, he managed to prevent both futures and still lives?

I have always assumed that when the timeline gets fixed, both Legacy and his daughter will be alive.

I don't have any answers, so asking Christopher is still an awesome idea.  Watch out for smoke bombs.

The problem that I have is the Visionary.  she comes from a/the Iron Legacy timeline, which she perceives as the future- and considering that her younger self is present in the "current" timeline, this would imply that there is some degree of time travel as well as cross-dimensional travel involved.

Now, Legacy could certainly die in the Tactics storyline, but maybe he does dodge his fate and live.

Or a more sobering thought- maybe Pauline doesn't survive, but having lived through the emotions and turmoil of being Iron Legacy, he manages to keep going and will fight the good fight as the Last Legacy. 

It all depends on the theory the makers ascribe to as far as how alternate possible realities work.

It appears to be like Nielzabub since they are crossing into alternate lines and Greatest Legacy gets to met Pauline (or at least has the chance to).

How it all effects them after the shattering is repaired is another bag of worms.  For Finest Legacy to see his Dad again, as well as himself turned evil, it could be some very interesting changes.

I think we were just getting a glimps of one of the more interesting timelines of the multiverse. There is a massive event that is starting to blurr the lines between them, but I am not so sure to what extent they interacted with eachother. Its hard to say.

An interesting note is that the original Vanessa Long (who jumped into our timeline) seems to originally be from the IL timeline (or at least one of them that produce IL) since it says she fought with the Freedom 6 before she made the time jump.

Not so sure about that, considering the first line in Iron Legacy's bio is "In this timeline", which talks about the eventual death of Legacy.

We know Tactics is 5 years after the card game. If Legacy is still alive then (and BB), then this entire situation will happen after the Tactics storyline. However, Legacy's incap side doesn't have any gray hair. So either Legacy decided to dye his hair before a big battle, or that version happened before Tactics (or another theory I can't think of). We also know that the card game will be an entire story, so I think we will get an entire story before Tactics takes place, not waiting for Tactics to see what happens in the middle.

When I say fixed, I didn't mean that the timelines will be sperate again. I think something will "fix" the entire situation and create a single new timeline where both Legacy and Young Legacy are still alive.

Walter Bishop reset time so that Legacy could have his daughter back.

The Time Cataclysm isn't an event with timing, so it is possible that Legacy did die, but then the events of the Cataclysm changed that.  

Or that our main timeline has changed so much due to all the other stuff that none of them may die like they were supposed to. We have no idea how the canon timeline will actually play out. We just know of different outcomes that could happen and do happen in other timelines.

Visionary is from 17 years into the future, i'm not so sure the card game is telling a 17 year story. I agree we will be getting an entire story, however I don't think that story is the death of Legacy. However we get to see a glimpse of what will come 5-17 years into the future, thanks to the Time Cataclysm. Plus hasn't Christopher previously said that Legacy was always intended to die in the main timeline?

Thats my thoughts. Just because it is confirmed he dies in a timeline, maybe even a few, does not nessesarily that the cannon timeline will end up going in that direction. With all the time jumping shenanigans, the main timeline was no doubt altered. The presence of Dark Visionary in the main timeline (or just Visionary in general) already hints that the main timeline has already been thrown off. Not to mention the presence of Gpop Legacy. Who knows, maybe gpop will end up taking the final bullet instead of Paul or Paulina. That would be interesting. Why else bring Gpop into the story at this time? 

However, the presence of Visionary is what possibly changes the main timeline from being the same as the Iron legacy Timline. Plus he isn't confirmed in just any time line, it is confirmed in this timeline.

Oh certainly. That is totally possible.

"This timeline" could mean any number of things though. Its an unclear pronoun reference. It really could refer specifically to any of the timelines, but just explaining that in that one in particular IL becomes a thing.

This Timeline is a tricky idea in any game involving time travel, but esp. in a game where we have at least 2 timelines having characters and stories and interaction with each other.  Even knowing that Pauline dies to the Baron could be enough to cause both Legacies to be cau;tious and change the future.  Again without knowing just how they view timelines and their creation that statement could have been true, but after the Cataclysm no longer true.

And we also must take into account the "fixed point" in time. I have used BioShock Infinate as a parrallel to the fixed point idea. There is a point in time that is identical in all of the timelines, at least that is what is implied.

Pretty sure the Fixed Point is a "Who-ism".

As for Legacy, everything dies in time.

Who-ism? I am unfamiliar with that term

Doctor Who, a popular UK made Science Fiction program about Time Travel, 50th Anniversary in November!

I know the show. I am unfamiliar what "who-ism" means, besides having some loose connection and reference to said show.

A who-ism is a concept or saying that was popularized (if not created) by the show. 

In this case, the concept of an event, outcome, decision, or moment that must ALWAYS happen, and can never be altered or prevented was created on the show, and given the name "Fixed point".  It was then featured in multiple plot lines, and gradually moved into general time travel lexicons.

I wasn't talking about fixed point being something that MUST and ALWAYS happen though. Just that there is a single event that happens to be the exact same in every timeline. Back to bioshock, the fixed point in time can be altered, but it is at that point where everything and all other possibilities branches out from. The alteration of that fixed point basically destroys the possibility of certain timelines from ever happening in any branch timeline moving forward. Again, I am not as familiar with the good Doctor, so if it is in fact similar, I appologize.

Legacy has his own "Comstock" moment when Paulina dies. It could be that when Vanessa messed with her child self that she might have tampered with the "fixed point" and sent everything else after it into realm of total uncertainty (assuming of course that the art for the card Fixed Point holds significance to the event, which is debatable I guess).

Was not created by Dr. Who, but it was popularized by the show.  The actual term I don't think was used till the new seires.

It derives from mathmatics and has been applied to time in a good number of old Sci-fi worlds.

In Sentinels it is a point acoss all timelines that must occur.

Also looking at Vanessa Long's bio again (due to the fixed point being based on her) I don't think she comes from Iron Legacy's timeline at all, unless someone defeats Iron Legacy and America has fallen into chaos by her time.  It would have to happen before the Cataclysm took place, since Vanessa travels pre-cataclysm.

String theory has the notion of a fixed point in time no?

It says she fought alongside the Freedom 6. Could there be multiple versions of the F6 throughout all the timelines? Sure. But the only Freedom 6 we know of was specifically formed out of the need to combat Iron Legacy. China has such a massive influence in that timeline and it comes as no surprise since Legacy is no more America's defender.

Also, the visionary specifically references remembering Legacy as a much angrier person, with the card depicting Iron Legacy.

Precognition also pictures heros like Haka in chains. There is more than ample evidence that Vanessa is originally of the IL timeline.

Actually this one if from another 'nother time line, in which Voss has taken over Earth.

Ah thats right. Thanks.

Another timeline though? Maybe that is still to come in the current timeline…

Look at Mistbound. Voss screams that he will be back. Then you have the Voss statue shown in that one card with the Cosmic Entity and Akash's eyes and both Legacy deaths. And a Thorian hero (presumably) on its way.

Doubtful, I think NightMist probably put him away for good with her Mistbound. [REDACTED (see below)]. Also, bringing up Sentinel Tactics again, they mentioned Dawn, Omnitron, and Blade being already made for it. Why would they only do 3 of the 4 villains from the base set? Especially someone so minion based that would sound excellent for it. Because he is gone for good, because NightMist say the possible future, the same as Visionary, but decided to act upon it, to ensure Voss will not complete world conquest.

[Ronway, my apologies if I'm misremembering, but I think you revealed something there that hasn't been generally revealed yet. – Andy]

Perhaps I should direct you to this photo?

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/123/912/390520627f26d5537a33d3f3b6f35fb8_large.jpg?1381658011

There are two expansions to go Ronway. To think Voss will not make one last grandstand (especially with a possible Thorian hero coming and a cosmic spacey theme left to explore) is a bit premature. We have yet to see the last of him.

I didnt see the edit, but I am assuming this has to do with Vyktor being shown in that picture (above the I in Sentinels)?

My big problem with Visionary coming from IL timeline is timing.

Iron Legacy is going around killing supervillains.

In Venessa's timeline Super Villains are blamed for the loss of her side.

Iron Legacy is 18 years older than Finest Legacy.

2018 Venessa goes back in time, her cause already lost.

For this to work the original timing of Legacy being 47 has to be before 2000, or Iron Legacy is around when his side falls, Venessa fighting on his side, or Iron Legacy is the head of the Pan-Asian People's Republic.

I don't see any of those as being likely.  Perhaps I'm missing something.

And don't forget we have two Visionarys traveling back in time in the one body, it's possible that the hitchhiker does come from IL's timeline and the memories of both are scrambled together, hence why she remembers him being angrier.

To think Voss will make one last grandstand (especially when relying on a Cher song and Voss' deck has already been released, and no villain will get 2 decks) is a bit premature.

Now unless Bunker has becamea  super villain, I think Iron Legacy being up to the knee caps in Tyler Vance's face would beg to differ.

As mentioned previously, going knee deep in a hero's face, may give you the title of Super Villain to others. But hey, that's just me.

Considering that earlier 2000s is when the experiment project began, means that the time lines up just about right. Considered 6 years after that is when Dreamer is 6, and Legacy is depicted fighting with her projections.

The timeline works out fine. She was a child during the time Paulina woulda been killed. If thats the point where Legacy turns to IL, then Vanessa being 17-18 years old when she made the jump makes perfect sense as the IL we are introduced to is that much more older than the Legacy we know.

Her bio says the US was torn up by super power criminal activity. Doesnt say "super villains". Depending on who you are, like the Freedom 6, you might very well consider what Iron Legacy is doing as "super powered" activity that is "criminal" in nature. Its misleading sure, but it was an early bio that couldnt give away too much. Without Legacy protecting America's interest and serving as its moral and ethical compass, It was probably ripe for the taking by other countries.

Umm…Cosmic Omnitron? Whats this nonsense about needing two decks? The Cher bit was funny though.

Even if Voss manages to get a set of promo villain character cards, I suspect they will be of Voss prior to NightMist mistbinding him.

Ahhhh ok. We are on the same page. That is certainly a possibility! I am going to have refer back to DBZ for a minute and say that Garlic Jr. had been banished to the Negative Zone once and impossibly made his way back. It it is as you suspect, then maybe we will indeed see Voss in Sentinels Tactics down the line in an expansion. Because really now, when can you ever be truly sure you shut down a comic villain for the last time?

Considering the death record for several of the DBZ characters and how long 5 minutes takes, I wasn't entirely suprised to see Garlic Jr. return.

The only thing I can see happening to get Voss back, is another Time Cataclysm. I would think NightMist would of put all the power she could of to seal Voss away, I know I certainly wouldn't want to risk allowing someone run around that is capable of getting Haka in chains.

Considering the only other being we have seen able to contain Haka like that is Iron Legacy, that certainly speaks to the potential to Voss's power. And if Voss is trapped within the mists, what is to stop something or someone from opening up a portal back into R'lyeh? Someone with a large and dangerous knowledge of the occult and infernal dealings? Apostate could be someone to fit that bill. I know this is slightly off topic and 103% baseless speculation, but there are still two quotes in Apostates deck attributed to proper names that we have not been introduced to. I am not saying they are connected for Voss, but there is a lot of stuff that fits together somehow and we are still missing a ton of pieces.

A few problems.

Iron Legacy is a global Tyrrant, not a North American Criminal.

He does kill Heroes, but he also goes after criminals.  He's taking out everyone.

It was "years later" that Pauline died.  Finest is 47 and Young 18 at bio time, when Pauline begins her training.  Years later her father dies, or in the IL timeline she dies in the same fight.

The confusing part is that Visionary's Bio says the program was authorized in the "late 2000's," and that she travelled back in time in 2018, and at present is 17.  I don't even know where to go with that, sounds like a 10yr old was a time travelling super hero who has little time to live but is still around 7 yrs later.

I understand her card that really points to IL timeline, but if she is from that timeline it sure doesn't make sense with hers and IL's Bio.

There are a lot of dates that aren't specific as well as no birthdates that would answer a ton of questions. It doesn't say exactly when she traveled back to though, just says "our present". But I assume it would be while her mother was pregnant with her to stop the testing and injections.

I asked the question I wanted to ask about the timelines

"Let us say that Legacy/Young Legacy's death occurs at issue 100, where does Iron Legacy appear in the timeline, does he crash in at issue 50 or issue 150?" (numbers don't matter it was basically before or after)

I am paraphrasing what Christopher said here.

There is a core timeline. Legacy dies in the core timeline and Young Legacy dies in an alternative timline. The alternative timeline gives rise to Iron Legacy. Something is messing with the multiverse and weakening the walls of reality/normal time. Iron Legacy knows this and tries to extend his rule into the core timeline... at a point before they split.

Iron Legacy is defeated/driven off somehow. However the timelines are so changed that it is possible that Legacy/Young Legacy's death might not even happen in the core timeline any more.

This is just a single part of the story being told through Sentinels.

YAY!

Man, idk if I ever could have gotten that story from just the cards and bio. I'd very much like to hear more of all of this. 

You said IL comes over to the main timeline before the split? Could that possibly be our "fixed point"? 

How? If the split is about whether Legacy or his daughter dies, then Iron Legacy would never have been before that point in his timeline.

Here is my question, not which is the core timeline, but which is the original timeline. There are a couple of ways to look at this: either there were always parrellel timelines happening at once (at which point Visionary just jumped timeslines), or there was only one, until something caused something else to change (Visionary). According to the second theory, the IL timeline could be the original, while Visionary coming back caused the change (which is why she came back anyways), and created our timeline. 

That's a difference in the timelines sure. But do we know for certain whether that's the reason for the split in time? Is it possible that the difference in legacy deaths is a symptom instead of a cause?

We don't, but then we are just shooting with blanks here. If someone is connected in that expansion, then we know absolutely nothing to speculate on.

Fixed Point could also just be an event that will always happen regardless and not nessesarily the cause of a split either. 

I agree with that, and if the cause of the split was the change of who dies, then they wouldn't be the fixed point anyways.

But there is also the question of what does "fixed point" mean. Is it something that is inevitable, but can be delayed or made earlier in different timelines, or does it have to happen at the same exact point in each timeline. Does it effect everything, or only a single person or place.

If we are dealing with multiple timelines, are they in sync? If it is 2013 in one, do we know for sure if it is 2013 in the other. This could make a huge difference in the fixed point. Maybe it means that this event has to happen in every timeline simultanously, and that could be a key to moving from one to the other. 

Ahhh, it's always fun to speculate.

Interesting note. The flavor text of Visionarys mental divergence states that she is every future that could possibly occur. That sounds like she acts as a breaking point in some capacity. Her art on Fixed Point as well leaves a lot of questions. 

So much of this would require sitting down and talking to Christopher about his idea of the timelines, and about how alternate realities exist and are created.

That would give us a good starting point.

The whole shattered Timelines to me means that almost anything is possible.  Time has shattered, the boundaries don't work right.  The fight to alter and shape time before the damage is fixed could lead anywhere.

Maybe I could do some sort of Google Hangout about it or something...

I'd be willing to look into doing an AMA hangout type thing.

A Reddit AMA? Or you mean more local on these forums?

Probably either do it here or on Google so I can just talk outloud. I work best that way, which anyone who has met me should be able to verify.

Not that I mind writing things out. I just like story-telling vocally.

Love the idea. I really hope it happens. I have quite a few questions ready up my sleeve! (*cough*SHD/Fort*cough*)

I don't do Reddit... but I would log on to a Google hangout for something like this

YAY!!!!!!!

I highly recommend something written, lest we disagree about what we heard.

Better yet might be something vocal, but recorded.

I tried to ask Christopher about how time travel worked in SotM and the answer I got back wasn't clear enough for me to grok. The answer seemed to involve that there were different ways to think about it and that the exact mechanism was immaterial. What mattered was really only what the characters experienced.

I thought I'd posted something suggesting that it be done as a G+ "Hangout on Air", which lets it get posted to YouTube for later (re)viewing. However, I'm not finding it, so maybe I only meant to.

I remember someone saying something about Hangout on Air.

I tried to ask Christopher about how time travel worked in SotM and the answer I got back wasn't clear enough for me to grok. The answer seemed to involve that there were different ways to think about it and that the exact mechanism was immaterial. What mattered was really only what the characters experienced.

I can dig that.

My suggestion is we get some questions as a forum unit that he can answer, to direct the talk, and then just let him talk and someone record it.

I would like to know a few things:

1.  Do the alternate timelines come into existance anytime a choice is made, or do they rely on major differences?

2.  When Visionary travelled back in time would she create a new timeline by changing the past, or alter the one she came from?

3.  Does the shattering get fixed at some point, or does the Multiverse stay shattered?

4.  If the timelines do become stabalized, do they return to the way they were before, or has everything been alterred?

5.  If the timelines don't stabalize, do they merge into one timeline of chaos, or does the universe unmake itself?

6.  Did Visionary come from Iron Legacy's timeline?

2. There is probably a separate timeline for every possible choice and outcome already in progress. I am not sure alternate timelines get "created" when someone makes a choice, there already exists a timeline where that person made the opposite choice. Visionary is quoted as saying that she is "every possible future that could occure" on the flavor text of mental divergence. Possibly thats a context clue.

3. I do not think there is any question that Visionary came from the IL timeline. She remembers an "angrier" Paul and had previously fought with the Freedom 6 (who as far as we know only existed as a response to IL. Remember, Fright Train is a member of the F6)

Unless i'm misremembering or misunderstood (both are likely), Christopher told us in London that time travel doesn't cause the rifts in time, it kinda happens because of it. Time travel is basically finding the "gaps" that are already there and moving through them.