Footenotes: The Matriarch and the Red Herring

• Before I begin, I would like to thank imprimis5 and Pydro for their wisdom and expertice on this topic. There are things I would have never put together without their help. Also, there will be a lot of information that will be missing due to it being related to Vengeance. I will update the theory in full once Vengeance hits. Let us begin.

"And, even though The Matriarch is certainly a petulent child, she also harnesses a TON of power. Power she doesn't entirely understand. I wonder if there will ever be more about her..."

https://greaterthangames.com/comment/42774#comment-42774

A mask that lets you control all the birds in the sky is a pretty niffty power. But a "TON" of power? No. No, I do not believe so. This needs investigating. Let's start at the begining. Her Bio.

She is a child with a rather strange thirst for power. Curious. In her rebelion she turned to dark poetry. Poetry? Look at Matriarchs group affiliation. "The Undead Poet Society". The bio goes on to explain that this society was just a bunch of other angsty teens. And here is where I throw first red flag. I find it very hard to believe that her bio, under group affiliations, would list a random group of unimportant teens. Counter-example, why doesnt Naturalist have a group affiliation with his previous company? Because it bears no meaning to the larger comic arch at play. Other groups mentioned in this way include FILTER, Freedom 5, Prime Wardens and the Dark Watch. There is no group affiliation mentioned anywhere else in any bio that is not relevant to the major arch.

Side step for a moment. Anyone know anything about Norse mythology? Of course we do. Marvel put out a few Thor movies staring his all powerful yet sleepy father Odin. I recently learned that Odin, like many polytheistic pantheon figurheads, represents a multitude of things. Allow me to quote the Odin Wikipedia if I may. 

• "His role, like that of many of the Norse gods, is complex. Odin is a principal member of the Æsir (the major group of the Norse pantheon) and is associated with war, battle, victory and death, but also wisdom, Shamanism, magic, poetry, prophecy, and the hunt."

Woah. WOAH. Poetry? I wonder...no, no way. A mere coincidence. But I kept reading that Wiki...

• Odin has a number of magical artifacts associated with him: the spear Gungnir, which never misses its target; a magical gold ring (Draupnir), from which every ninth night eight new rings appear; and two ravens Huginn and Muninn ("Thought" and "Memory"), who fly around Earth daily and report the happenings of the world to Odin in Valhalla at night.

BOOM. My mind blew apart. Huginn and Muninn? Those two nightmares of villain targets found in Matriarchs deck are basically scouts for a greater power. Hmmm...

The bio continues as she attains the Mask, the source of her power. But read it carefully. First she puts the mask on and then instantly senses a "great presence in the sky." Singular presence? Continue reading. She tries to pull that great presence toward her, and by doing so the sky errupts with birds. The Matriarch is born.

What if...and this might be crazy...the Mask was something a bit more? Again, Christopher said she is harnessing a "TON" of power. What if that power just happend to manifest itself this way in her? A sort of "One Ring" that gives a power dependant on the wearer. And to challenge another big assumption, what if the "great presence" she felt was not that of her bird army?

Odin has been called many things with many meanings over history it seems. A lot of them have a form of the word "father". Possibly where we get the name Matriarch from. She felt a "great presence" in the sky due to an artifact that has ties to a "father" figure, to which she also shares personality traits with (need of respect and a love for poetry jump out as the big ones). By now you should all be thinking what I am thinking.

That "great presence" she felt? Yeah. That is, without doubt, the Cosmic Entity that has been alluded too for so long now. The common theory about this Cosmic Entity is that it would be pretty much a direct analog to Galactus. But "father"...what if they are foils? Maybe this Cosmic Entity is more of a "creator" to Galactus's "destroyer". Certainly >G wouldn't make such a direct analogy as to make their big bad just a re-skined Marvel entity.

"The child is the center" - Timecrazed Prisoner

"I rule from the center to the sea" - Matriarch's Mask

Since The Block came out at the same time as The Dreamer, popular speculation has posited her as the one being referenced here, that she is the center of the craziness going in the multiverse set in motion by Vanessa's massive time jump. How else were we supposed to interpret the image on Fixed Point? That was a red herring.

This 17 year old "petulent child", as Christopher said above, could hold the key to everything.

There is more to come! I have yet to unpack art clues and flavor text clues, but Vengeance related material will have to be my jumping off point. Stay tuned. We have much to talk about.

Update #1: In another thread recently, I brought an interesting fact. Have you ever noticed that we have artwork in game depicting a hero in combat with every single villain in the game with the lone exception of Matriarch? There is no card outside of her deck that has her in it! Why is that? There is either a massive oversight by Adam, or, more likely, there is a reason.

Popular speculation at this time strongly suggests that the giant Thorathian girl thats depicted in The Dreamer's deck is a future hero. The rational behind the speculation is that no card art currently exists depicting two villains in combat. Hero vs Villain is the norm by far, with a small scattering of Hero vs Hero art (Expat hitting Setback, Tachyon kicking Writhe). 

Side steping for a moment, I also have outlined my current thoughts on the final 2 expansions and how I see them playing out in the same thread I mentioned at the start of this update. This can all be found starting here:

https://greaterthangames.com/comment/48298#comment-48298

I bring this up here because when working out the math and theme on the expansions, it became clear to me that there is a possibility that the final mega expansion may not introduce any new heros (or at least, no new Nemesis Icons).

Steping back and looking at all of this together, I can only come to the reasonable conclusion that Matriarch could become a hero deck by the end of SotM.

Lots of stuff here. Norse mythology again references garments made from feathers that confer powers upon the wearer. Freyja (and Loki, at one point) wore a cloak made of feathers that allowed flight.

As far as "the centre" goes, I don't know that I'm fully in line with this yet. We've got compelling arguments for Young Legacy and Vanessa Long, too. I think more information needs to be revealed to get to the heart of that matter.

I dig it.  Please continue.

I've known about Huginn and Muninn since long before Sentinels. Silly me to think that the names of those birds were just casually reused, rather than being part of a larger plot.

Interesting! It would certainly be fun to see Lilian take a more central role. I've always though she had a great concept and feel rather sorry for her even if she is somewhat emo and annoying.

Its possible that she could be reformed and is now operating as a hero (since we don't know how much damage she did as a villain, its plausible), but the bitterness that she harbored doesn't seem like the kind that goes away after being beaten.

 Interesting thought- the quote on the mask mentions that she rules from "the center to the sea"

Now, Chris is a big Norse fan, true..but he's also a major fan of mythology in general.  So we could have a mix.  The birds are certainly named after Odin's birds, but I'm not sure that they ARE Odin's birds, and I feel that its a bit of a misdirection.

I think its more plausible that it might be more geared towards the Morrigan than Odin.  Theres a LOT of carrion, eyeball feasting, fury, and scorn in her deck, which are far more geared towards Celtic than Norse.  I have a feeling that we're going to see an evolution from Lillian as "the Matriarch" to Lillian as an aspect of the Morrigan.   My guess is that the "cosmic event" that we are gettting hints at is going to involve a lot of primal and legendary things being unleashed.  Some of them will be from beyond the stars, but i suspect that some of them will be mystical and mythological as well.  hitting all the angles, you know?

Also, Lillian is a Irish/Scottish/Welsh name.

So, while Stanley Ipkiss got Loki's mask, Lillian got Odin's or Morrigan's?

Could this give any more credence to my Timecrazed Prisoner connection? "The child is the center".

I know very little about the Morrigan and Celtic mythos. But this possible connect is awesome. I will be doing a lot of reading tonight it looks like.

Brilliant work.

Quick reading into the history of the Morrigan yielded incredible results!

Morrigan is the goddess of battle and strife and there are stories of her showing up on the battlefield as a crow flying overhead. She also appears to men in the form of a crow in multiple stories.

Morrigan usually appears as one of three sisters. Linking that relationship possibly back to Matriarch and Tachyon might be a stretch, but well worth noting.

There is also a figure in the Vulgate, which is a latin translation of the Bible that mentions Lamia, who very closley resembles the Morrigan. Interestingly, the name in Hewbrew translates to Lilith, another Morrigan-ish figure in mythology. Lilith is very close to Matriarchs real name Lillian. 

I love the Morrigan angle, also. I don't find it likely, but it's fun to run with.

Also, I have far more knowledge of the Morrigan than I do Odin. However, they share many characteristics. I could go into this, but I don't have time at the moment. Maybe later.

You might be reading too much into this Foote, but that's what makes it fun. I certainly see there being more to the Matriarch then meets the eye. I have also known for a while that Huginn and Muninn come from Norse mythology, but I had never tought of it to have a larger impact in the overall multiverse. Very interesting theory can't wait to see how accurate it is.

Oh of course. There are absolutely things I'm reading into. But, keep in mind, I never made the connection without Veangence info as well. There's more to this story, I just can't expand on it quite yet. Wait for it. All I ask. 

I assumed Matty named two particular birds of her flock Huginn and Munnin and just adopted them as pets, whose card abilities represented that they were particularly large and fierce, either naturally or due to her infusing them with the power of the Mask to some greater extent than just controlling them like the other birds.  I did not for a moment consider that they were the REAL Huginn and Munnin, but it's not like we don't have at least eleven mythological gods walking around messing things up already, so it does kinda make sense.  I guess in a way Lilian is a sort of valkyrie, as these were always associated with the carrion-birds who feed on the dead after battles.  Still doesn't necessarily mean that the name Matriarch is anything other than her being intentionally pompous, but you never know.

If the cosmic entity is indeed Odin, I hope he's not coming alone.  There is already one mythos (besides Marvel Comics) which posits the idea that the Norse gods were actually a race of Sufficiently Advanced aliens: Stargate, in which the "gray" aliens are actually a race called the Asgard, who write in runes and have been protecting Earth from the evil Goa'uld (who masquerade primarily as Egyptian gods, with two of the worst being Ra and Anubis) for centuries.  So basically, if your theory is right, we have a reverse Stargate here.  Should Odin (or O.D.I.N. or Ohdihnn or 0dh1n or however they style it so it can be trademarked) turn out to be one of the game's last villains, I'll definitely have to make sure to play Ra against him.  (And if the Matriarch is a difficulty 4 just for being associated with him, does that mean he himself will be difficulty 5?!?)

On the Morrigan thing, I'm inclined to doubt that the streams will be crossed that much, but it did touch off an interesting thought in me.  I've never heard an analogy made between Morrigan (goddess of death and battle) and Lilith/Lamia (goddess of child-killing and things that go bump in the night) before, but if there is a connection between them, it puts an interesting new spin on the Arthurian mythos...Lilith is classically a seductress among other things, and I seem to recall that Arthur's doom had something to do with a certain Morgana (Morriganna?) Le Fay....

As Arthurian legend is mostly taken from celtic mythology, there is a strong connection there.

Ravens are prevalent in many European myth, from psychopomp figures to supernatural messengers to harbingers of change to embodiments of wisdom and the mind itself, they nearly always have a connection to death and the afterlife. Similarly, the deities that associate themselves with ravens tend to be wise and bloodthirsty.

However, for all their darker tones, they are rarely connected to evil. Perhaps we're looking at a character (villain?) that is similar to Iron Legacy on a greater scale. Warped through a complete lack of humanity, this character empowers those who are so inclined (Omnitron, Lillian, and others), sees that they are not capable of becoming like it, and them summarily destroys them in the most efficient way possible: removing their plane of existence.

I'm rambling here. Perhaps this character is Odin or something named such by ancient peoples. I don't know. Right now I'm just tossing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks.

A theory that (to me) supports the Morrigan angle are a couple of details about Tempest. 

The Morrigan was nboted to have three forms (as seen in her fight against Cuculain).  One was a crow, the next an eel, and the third a wolf.

Well, the Matriarch has plenty of crows...but we've seen tempest talking to an eel in aquatic correspondence.  And we've seen him petting a dog- its no wolf, but its not too much of a stretch.

In addition, in the artwork for Silver Shadow, we see two speficic things- Tempest wielding a sword, and wearing white and blue robes over his tights.  You can a loose (blue) sleeve poking out behind the adept, and some sort of emblem on his chest.  White robes can mean a lot of things, and one of them is a more druidic focus (especially with Tempest's control over the natural world).

The sword is a short wasp-waisted blade, with rounded bronze quillions.  Now, there aren't a lot of double-edged wasp-waisted swords.  A gladius can be wasp-waisted, but it is more often seen as a straight blade, and they have minimal crossguards.  A Xiphos can be wasp-waisted, but its more often a single-edged surved sword, and has straight crossguards. Celtic shortswords can have curved crossguards, and a wasp-waisted blade.

In addition to that, there are two specific swords that both tie into the Morrigan in celtic Mythology.

Macha (one of the aspects of the Morrigan) was the wife of Nuada (king of the Tuatha de Danaan).  In a fight against a terrible enemy, Nuada had his hand chopped off and (after many adventures) replaced with one of silver.  The comparison to tempest's arm issues seem relatively obvious, and Nuada had a sword (this one) which looks very similar to the one tempest is wielding- the crossguard is a bit off, but the blade is dead on.

Another possibility is Lugh.  Lugh was admitted to the ranks of the Tuatha for being a master of all things- they had someone who was better in each of his skills, but no one that could match his breadth of talent.  Now, I've heard tempest described as a lot of things, but the one that I hear the most is that he's a jack of all trades- someone who can do a little bit of everything.  The Morrigan is more associated with Lugh's son (Cuculain), but she does appear in his stores as well.  Lugh had a sword (Fragarach) that (among other things) granted command over the winds.  I haven't been able to find any good pictures of it (given that legendary named swords have been co-opted by a variety of fantasy games), but it could certainly fit the profile.  Lillian becoming the Morrigan could tie into him getting it.

Ha! A fellow enthusiast of Celtic myth!

As an aside, whenever I read or pronounce "Fragarach" I always giggle when I hear it as "Fraggle Rock."

Probably way off, but this talk about the intent and evilness (and lack there of) of the cosmic entity got me thinking about Voyager's "Year of Hell." Manipulating timelines, giving powers, etc. could be its way to fix things.

I've heard the name Fragarach before - I always thought the name was German, being derived somehow from the root word Frage, meaning "to question".

Also Tempest does more than a little bit of just about everything.  Lightning Slash is just as deadly as Ra's Fire Blast, although he doesn't have as many ways of boosting it.

Thats the thing, though.  Its right there in how you followed it up.  Lightning slash can do as much as Fire Blast, but Ra is overall much better at damage output.  He can do a bit of card manipulation, but others do it better.  He can do a bit of healing, a bit of ongoing/environment destruction, some AoE, some support...  He can fill just about any role for the team, but there is always a specialist in that role who could do it more effectively.  His skill is that he can switch from role to role in a way that the specialists absolutely can't do.  I can't think of any hero that is as versatile as Tempest.

Arguably, the only thing that he does better than anyone else is AoE damage effects- but we've yet to meet all the heroes in the Sentinels universe, and who's to say that there won't be an AoE specialist down the line?  

Yay for mythology class! While I knew about the origins of Huggin and Munnin, I’m not as up on Celtic mythology. Very spiffy stuff.

The only time I’d ever heard of Fragarach was as the enchanted sword in the original Temple of Elemental Evil.

I believe that is the Chinese pronunciation.

Oh, phew, I'm not the only one.

This was seriously facinating. The similarities you pointed out between the Morrigan and Tempest are mind blowing. I love learning new things like this.

There is obviously a lot of influence we can see here. I guess my question now is, how do we think these strong similarities are going to translate into the actual SotM storyline?

Conveniently, I've recently read the  first two books of the Iron Druid series, so I recognize a lot of these people and swords.

It's actually from the Irish word freagra, which means answer.

I'm not sure I'd read too much into the shapes that the Morrigan took during her fight with Cúchulainn. After all, the whole Táin thing started because two swineherds had a shapeshifting competition.

The similarity between Morgana and Morrigan seems like pure coincidence to me, incidentally, based on the etymology of the names. (Morrigan means 'great queen', and Morgana seems to be a female version of Morgan, which doesn't.)

Reading the Morrigan over and over just makes me think of Lost Girl.

I think this is very true. To me, it is more of what the birds represent to Odin that is important, not the fact that they belong to him specifically. Those two birds are his eyes and ears on the ground and they report back daily with news. They are the scouts of a major diety. Are they also scouts for a major diety in SotM? That is some juicy speculation right there.

This makes sense on the fantasy end, as Fragarach (the ToEE sword) was also referred to as The Answerer–it would give you a free attack against anyone who hit you in melee.

I'm told that in one of the DotHack games, there's a Fragarach which, if someone tries to hit the wielder with their strongest attack, instantly kills them.  Apparently "balance" is not exactly a thing in these games.

No the .Hack// games are not known for their balance… but based on the story it's really about how an mmo can/is hacked so it makes some sense there's alot of bs things in the game.

So if it's a story about a game gone wrong, why exactly did they make a game of it?  Seems like tempting fate.  O_o

Does anyone think that Expatriot somehow fits into all of this? Her deck is FULL of birds and was released at the same time as Matriarch. Could there be a connection here somehow? 

I understand the art reference that those doves are supposed to illicit (John Woo and all that), but it is certainly not limited to one card. It is a huge motif in her deck. Matriarch has two bird cohorts. So does Expat in a sense with Pride and Prejudice. 

The Morigan stories tell of her being mentioned frequently as one of 3 sisters of sorts. It is simple to draw a connection to Tachyon there, but maybe there is reason to believe Expat is interwoven here as well. I know the Morigan angle is a bit of a stretch, but I think the doves in Expats deck warrent a second look considering the emergence of Matriarchs relevancy to the larger story arch.

I think those are supposed to just be John Wu references.

For those of us newer to the game, can you summarize that? AFAIK, the only relevance right now is that she's Tachyon's sister/cousin.

Summarize which part? If you mean the family/sister thing, I make that connection in the loosest sense I can think of. I am not saying they are related. But the bird motif is something that I think could be examined a little more closely 

I have a theory about Expat.

I'm fairly certain that she's got a hidden power, namely some kind of return-with-the-dawn regeneration ability.   I think that in general, she might get stronger/faster/better/returns from being dead at night.

There are several instances (tactical shotgun, for one) where the artwork depicts her as VERY pale (and always at night).  It could be stylistic, but it also could indicate that something else is going on.

Think about Flak Jacket for a second.  It does absolutely nothing for small amounts of damage, and only works on big hits.  In fact, it is one of the few things in the game that can take the biggest hits- an infinite hit, even- and leave Expat without a scratch.  On the other hand, it is absolutely worthless against the few enemies who actually use bullets. Hired guns?  No flak jacket.  Voss's soldiers?  no flak jacket.  A full-on assault by Iron Legacy powered  by grief, loss, madness, two rings, and covered in obsidian shards?  Sure!  

Here's what I think is happening.  I think that she is actually dying (and it seems to be a regular occurence, seeing as how flak Jacket references getting her "this time"), or taking a mortal wound, staggering away (or passing out) and then (at night) she comes back to life.  She then looks at her ruined Flak Jacket and thinks "These things work really great!"

A further hint might be her incapacitated side- she's down (and certainly looks out), but later on (in the Scholar's cards- proverbs and axioms?), you can see that same location and she's getting back up.

See, my guess is that her incap side is a major turning point for her.  Its a time when she can't deny anymore that something weird is going on.  The Scholar is helping her come to terms with who she really is (that being the kind of thing he does), and she's going to have to learn more.

I kind of have a theory that only Citizen Dawn's power can really put her down in any sort of real way- and thats why the scar on the missing eye is so vivid and raw-looking.  Her innate power can't really heal it properly.

Now, I think that a HUGE amount of her skill and lethality is training, talent, and will.  But I think that she's a lot more survivable than even she knows.

Story wise, I think it would be kind of hilarious if its not a story about the power-less daughter being driven from home, but the story of a daughter WITH powers being driven away by people who didn't understand them.   

Flak Jacket totally prevents damage from Hired Guns, who rarely do less than 3 damage and frequently hit for 7+.

Hired guns, by themselves do 2 damage.

Hired guns, with the Contract, do 3.

Hired guns , with the Contract, and the Chairman can do up to 8.

BUT- Hired guns, who use bullets, by themselves...do 2.  Which does not trigger flak jacket.  Nor do Voss's minions, with their guns.

If Flak jacket had a constant damage reduction, and went away after a high damage hit, or had some kind of threshold in how much they could take, then I'd be less suspicious.

But it doesn't.  Flak jacket provides better protection than Bunker's armor.  It provides better protection than the scholar's best transmutations.  you could stack every hero on TOP of one another, and the flak jacket would still be better protection than a suit MADE from all the heros put together.

What I'm saying is that it does something NO OTHER armor does- provides infinite protection.  As long as the hit is above the 3 damage mark, it works.  Thats not normal, and that goes beyond "armor". 

7+? Frequent? Stop letting 3+ obsidian fields stay in play is my suggestion. 

Tachy has the same thing, but she can them redirect it and hurt someone else.

True, but tachyon's redirection ability is a direct result of her powers.

Not the result of a piece of kevlar/composite inserts she keeps in her van. That doesn't protect her head, legs, or arms.

Just pointing out that it isn’t better than everyone else combined.

EDIT: This was to directly follow on from Braithwhite's comment before I was ninja'ed

Let us assume (for the moment) you are wrong about your speculation on her particular power.

Let us assume that >G games comes to the realisation that a Flak Jacket providing infinte protection is not real-world enough for them but that they want to keep the card and just rename it, keeping the same text.

Given Expat's theme, what would you have called the card instead? What fits better with her theme than a Flak Jacket, even if unrealistic?

I suspect it has that effect because Expat needed/wanted a damage reduction effect that was new and semi-realistic and that name because it fits in with the theme, no underlying super secret power because it happens to protect from "infinite" damage.

I reluctantly concede that you are correct.  I may have exaggerated slightly with my theoretical stack of armor made of heroes.

Well, the simple answer is that I'm wrong.

The slightly less simple answer is that they have several damage reduction cards that duplicate each other (Fortitude/Otherworldy resilience), and several cards that reduce massive damage (shielding winds, undaunted, superhuman durabilty)- each of them with the same trigger condition- something that hits for more than 5 gets reduced, and anything below that is unaffected.  they could have gone that route.  they could have combined them into a body armor card which granted both sets (kind of like undaunted), but destroyed itself afterwards.  That would have been more realistic, and filled any sort of need to give her damage reduction.

But they didn't.  They chose to give her a piece of equipment that does something NO other armor/shield of faith/alien skin/or powers honed through a lineage of heroism can do.  It protects her (totally and completely) from hits that would leave Legacy broken and battered.

Given the existence of Prison Break, it's rare for Hired Guns not to come out after The Chairman has flipped. Chairman on Advanced is +4 damage in 4 player. Chairman at regular difficulty is +3 damage in 5 player. The Contract is another +1 damage. So even in basic level, you only need 1 damage booster in the Environment to get up to 7 damage, and there are plenty of Environments that will supply it (Megalopolis, Insula Primalis, Wagner Mars Base, Ruins of Atlantis, Rook City, Pike Industrial Complex, Realm of Discord, Silver Gulch). So yes, frequent.

I don't think Expat is powerless either, and I wonder if her power isn't something that can be looked off as luck, or skill.

Kind of the Han Solo of the Sentinels verse.  Some kind of intuition and increased reflexes would work.

Flak Jacket is similar to Tactical Shotgun, how in the world is it more powerful than Atomic Gaze or even a Flak Cannon.  I mean a Flak Cannon is kind of a super powered shotgun, yet it does less damage than Expat with her gun.

I think Expat has something that let's her get so much more out of these things than others could.  That is her power, she is more accurate, harder to hit, she just rocks.

I don't remember who it was, but someone made a thread about Expatriette and her doves and how it might indicate a hidden power, and Christopher in that thread said the poster was on to something. So there definitely is something going on with Expat, but what specifically is still a mystery. If she has a power, it could be superhuman accuracy and reflexes, something normal people might notice, but would be low on the radar of a commune who regularly hover and shoot lasers.

I think Arenson mentioned this elsewhere, but Christopher confirmed yesterday that the Norse gods are not active in the Multiverse, and that Huginn and Muninn are not the Huginn and Muninn. Just thought I'd let you know.

I never thought they were actually Odins birds. Just that their name could shed some insight into the greater narrative. The connection I tried to make is far less literal, I'm not sure how successful I was presenting that. 

Sure. I was pretty sure you weren't being literal, but I thought you'd want to know anyway. ;)

I'm glad it was something you all talked about! That's pretty cool. 

I was present when Arenson did his fire-hose stream of a million questions, and I asked quite a few myself. The Matriarch was someone I definitely wanted to know more about.

I hope someone is taking minutes to share later 

I totally wish I had done that.

Brathwaite, I really like your Expat theory.  Though ultimately I suspect that she has the power to watch too many John Woo movies and then break the fourth wall in reverse.  Nobody would ever notice, of course; Hollywood has programmed us to believe such things are totally possible IRL.

Aw poot, I was fond of the idea of Odin being a cosmic baddie who inserted himself into Earth's mythology.  I suppose it might have gotten >G in trouble with Marvel since they're getting serious with movie-Thor.  Not sure what the copyright issues are on a particular fictionalization of traditional mythology, but just as well for >G to steer wide of them (well, except with Egypt, which I don't think anyone else has done a straight superhero riff on).

Sorry about the ambiguity – I was asking about the "emergence of Matriarch's relevancy to the larger story arch." I don't happen to own any of the expansions right now, and I'm relatively new to the fora here.

Read the OP. In particular, I believe that's a reference to the comment from Christopher linked therein.

Unrelated: I keep reading the title of this thread as Footenotes: The Musical...

Matriarch was introduced in the first expansion, Rook City. Honestly since then, she has been little more than an afterthought when discussing the larger story arch being told (the SotM card game is comprised of one major comic arch with a bunch of smaller stories thrown in). The major arch being told, by the way, is about the collision of the multiple timelines in the multiverse and how that is affecting our heros in the core timeline. Honestly, Matriarch just has not seemingly fit in. She is just a whiney spoiled teen who is jealous of her speedy cousin Tachyon.

At the top of my original post here, I linked to a thread where Christopher gave an off the cuff comment about Matriarch wielding a TON more power than she might even realize and that we might not have her whole story. It basically was a confirmation to me that we have missed something with Matriarch, that she is more interesting and involved than we all once assumed. My goal was to spark disscussion about her to try and unpack some of her character influences and bio to draw possible conclusions about her involvment in the greater narrative.

For example, even though we know Huggin and Muggin are not "Odin's" ravens in this game, the fact that those proper names were used instead of loose derivatives tells me there is a solid connection to be drawn. Those were the eyes and ears of a mighty Pegan God. Maybe they are also the eyes and ears of a similarly powerfull being as well? Could she be connected with the Cosmic Entity that has been alluded to for quite some time? Thats what I want to know.

I hope that kinda helped.

This can be arranged.

Little musician humor right there.

If this turns into one of those threads full of puns, Paul will have to change the title to Music Puns.

And no-one wants him to have to take such drastic measures…

Minor details. But I will make note of your suggestion.

These pun threads just end up falling flat, I'd hate to have another happen by Accidental.

Okay, full stop, folks.

Compose yourself people. I'd expect you to conduct yourself with a bit more decorum.

Give it a rest, guys. You're making my attempts to stave off pun-related insanity harder and harder...

As a counterpoint to that, at least we're being upbeat, not to mention keeping things harmonious.

You guys are sharp! I'm not sure I can keep up the tempo on these music puns

Well, not to make too much of a song-and-dance about it, since I don't want to be blowing my own trumpet, but I think that if we keep up this kind of rhythm we might manage to drum the theme into enough people's heads and end up going out on a high note ;).

We'd probably better make a concerted effort to keep the pun motif to a minim-um though, so the admins don't get crotchet-y. I'm sure they're keeping tabs on us.

I think you mean "crotchet-y". Being "crochet-y" is what you do when you make your ickle mini Mr Chomps and friends out of wool ;).

I think i'm going to stay out of treble.

TRAINS!

*crickets*

Shoot, wrong thread

Freduian slip there. I can't pull the wool over your eyes, can I?

Have puns just become our dominant form of communication? I mean, I get that we're a close-knit bunch, and I don't want to be always needling at people or railing against things, but when so much stuff gets derailed... eh. Maybe I just need some kind of medicine or tonic to bring me more in line with you guys.

I find these to be some of the most clever threads on the forum, especially since we're in a bit of a new game information desert at the moment.  I dig it. :)

Do Remind Mi, Fanatic Soloing La capitan Tidius Doings?

Dawn Rays Me, For So Long Truth Dies!

Or something :P.

applause

`It's hard to make anything of this thread, the puns are becoming discordant.  We should try to keep it on the right track.

That definitely helps with respect to a summary of where things stood before the thread started. It was the context I needed to be able to make some sense of the OP. (With Rook City currently Out Of Print, I can't contribute productively to the discussion, but can try to at least follow it.)

Well if you're an angsty goth-type teenager who writes poetry and you suddenly aquire two pet ravens, of course you're going to name them Muninn and Huginn.

If you get one raven, you'll call it either Quoth or Nevermore.

I named mine Poe when I was a kid... but it was a black chicken and not a real raven. 

I'd love a raven, they are amazing birds. They really can talk incredibly well, have complex social relationships, use tools, solve problems, hide food from each other (and then move the food to a different spot if they think another raven observed them making the original cache) and seem to play by tumbling around in the updraft from cliffs.

Plus I once saw one distract a tourist at the Tower of London in order to steal his sandwich. Awesome.

[Edit: Check that. I'd prefer the raven to be wild in its natural environment, being a raven rather than my pet.]

Why does Poe, the Dark Chicken sound like an awesome idea for a cartoon?

((I imagine him sounding like Vincent Price, with a little mustache on his beak as he tells spooky stories using farm animals…))

Wild Cards has the Living Gods portray themselves as Egyptian godsm but they're not claiming to actually be the real Egyptian gods. At least, most of them aren't.

At least one incarnation of Black Adam (Captain Marvel (in DC universe) villain) has egyptian god themed powers: According to wikipedia: Black Adam gets his powers from  Shu (stamina), Hershef (strength), Amon (power), Zehuti ( Thoth) (wisdom),  Anpu (speed), and  Menthu (courage).

So that makes one egyptian god villain

Black Adam still got his powers from the Wizard Shazam.

There were three heroes who appeared in Thor during the fight he had with Seth quite a few years ago. Esrth-Lord, Skyhawk and Wind something. Three people who died and the Egyptian pantheon granted them pwoers.

Plus Moon Knight and his ties to Khonshu, God of Vengeance.

Okay, so Egypt has at least been dabbled in.  Much less so than Norse or Greek, though, it looks like.  Even Aztec/Maya may have been represented more.  Hindu and Oriental mythologies seem to still be wide open though, except for Manga in the latter case.  (There was a very interesting Indian take on Spider-Man I saw once, restyled several of the villains as mythological entities.  That's about all I've noticed.)

Ha. That DOES sound pretty awesome. 

Happy Halloween everybody.

So, coming a little late to the rampant speculation, but there were some cool ideas at the beginning of this thread that got me thinking. However, due to work I've been stewing over them for the last six hours or so, writing notes and going a little crazy due to lack of sleep. With that in mind read further at your own risk.

Edit: This got really long, I apologize

To begin with, I love this line of thinking. I also have felt the Matriarch has been lacking compared to some of the other villains. She should be really cool but there's just something missing to bring it up to the correct level. However, I personally still love the theory of Vanessa aka Visionary gaining her powers being the "fixed point" in the multiverse. Then I got to thinking "Can I combine them?". Just a second ago I lookedat visionary's and dreamer's bios, and had a second thought which strengthens the proposal I'm about to make. Her gaining her powers is the fixed point, not neccesarily when she gains them or what happens to her when she does. Combine this with the OP's theory about the mask and we get an intriguing scenario that allows the matriarch to be the center and vanessa's power the fixed point.

Lillian finds this mask and puts it on, this mask is an ancient relic and acts as a conduit to a great power, perhaps our cosmic entity perhaps something esle, and then she tried to pull it towards her. I tend to picture power reacting as liquid and things that contain power being containers. Even with the mask and any potential for power in Lillian I bet she pulled down more than she could actually contain, it spilled over. Add to that the next line in the bio is "...Panicked, she flung her arms outward..., if psychically she was throwing as well, even unintentionally, this could have caused the spread of the power as well. Now if Matriarch, the mask, or the power can be considered connected to "the center" than even one of them should be enough to affect the entire multiverse.

How does this affect Vanessa? Well, I'm beginning t think that defining Visionary's power as "psychic" has been a little misleading for me. When I think "psychic" I think telepathy, telekinesses, precognition, simple stuff, but Visionary is so much more than that. Her powers can warp reality itself to her whim, similiar I suppose the the X-men's Pheonix (not saying she is an x-men, just identifying the comic series). I find this further strengthend by two things. The first is a comment I saw earlier today which referenced something Christopher had said about time travel (if one of the forum gurus could find this somewhere it would be most appreciated, my forum-fu is decidely weak). He was responding to whether or not the time traveling had caused the cataclysm and his answer essentially was that the cataclysm had allowed time-traveling, because the traveling was simply being able to detect and enter rips and gaps in reality. This very closely ties visionary's most powerful and least "psychic" feat to an ability set more closely resembling the scholar's or kismet's.

Quick sidenote: Did the designer of Kismet choose the figure in the talisman or was the choice to make it a bird trickster instead of a fox or some other animal a desing choice by >G. If the latter that might have some signifigance to all this.

My second pillar comes from the bios. We are led to suspect that the chemicals given to Vanessa's parents lead to her psychic abilities. However, she is the only successful test subject and when she rescues her unborn self that vanessa still gains powers. This, as I'm positing, remains true throughout the multi-verse. Which ether means the chemical is constant as well, or the chemical has nothing to do with Vanessa devolping powers. What if, instead, she was born like Kismet or the scholar with an affinity and sensitivity to the fabric of reality. Then the matriarch pulls a big glob of power in, possibly from outside the multiverse (theories covered later). This is what causes Vanessa, a sensitive, to gain such god-like powers. And if it happens in the center, then it makes sense that it would affect all vanessas.

What else could this mean though? I will warn this is all wild speculation and probably blowing a few things way out of proportion, but hang with me for a second. If this power hits "the center" and ripples out to cause a "fixed point" which can and does use time travel, then it is not unreasonable to asusme this power, and whatever it's source may be, is not limited by time or space. Things not limited by time or space tend to come from outside of them, giving us a strog sense of our cosmic entity though maybe not. If it is him, then this might explain why he inexplicably took an interest in this world to start with. Someone called him.

If the power though is not limited  by time or space, what else might it have affected as it rippled though the multiverse. Possibly the origin of the cataclysm, or at least the rifts which brought about La Capitan and Chrono-Ranger's life changing trips. Something turned an average spanish vessel into a time machine that can sail the spaces between time. Temporal energies according to the bio, but something more as well?

Another interesting possiblity, moving on from La Capitan, is Fanatic. It is more possible that her ressurection and powers are more the work of an intelligent hand rather than the random spewing of energy, but it is a fascinating possibilty all the same, especially when we consider the other side of her origin.

Qucik sidenote: just reread her bio and found something I had... missed? Are the guys adding stuff to the bios behind our backs because I never saw, and no one has before commented on this interesting tidbit "she apparently suffered severe nerve damage, which left most of her body entirely numb". That shines a different light on a lot of her artwork. She doesn't keep going because of some fanatic ignorance of the pain of her wounds. She might not be able to feel them.

Apostate claims to have created Fanatic. There are many theories to this, but we know Apostate is a powerful demonic being, capable of traveling through at least 2 worlds, so possibly able to sense some of the threads of reality neccesary for that sort of travel. What else do we know about Apostate? He deals in dangerous Relics. One of the biggest questions we can't answer is how the Mask, an object of supremely immense power it seems, ended up in a mall antique shop. What if Apostate, or an agent connected to him placed it there? Generally demonic beings can't use powerful relics like this, the being on the other side doesn't like them or the relic was designed exclusivley for humans, so maybe it is him that places it there for Matriarch to find, thus setting off a chain which does indeed create Fanatic. This is wild speculation with no supporting evidence, I realize this, but I'm moving on little sleep so it makes sense at the moment. I've also wondered if the Philosopher's stone is simply a solidified version of this same power, but that seems less likely when reviewing the scholar's bio.

On a final sidenote (while my eyes blur from exhaustion) I noticed a few things in the matriarch's deck that might aid the conversation about her signifigance. Looking at the background of Huginn and Muninn, at first I thought fire and ice, but looking again I think Muninn is ash. Possibly symbolic of Huginn (thought) being an explosive, in the moment thing, destructive in this case since it is a volcanoe erupting. Perhaps crazed inspiration from the poet angle? Muninn (memory) is then ash, the deadness and impression left afterwards that hints at what was felt in the explosive moment. If not important to the story, at least cool symbology. The matriarch's power can also be traced to a reality altering twist, her retritubtions are automatic, and most come witht the death of a fowl. Either her displeasure is immiediately grtified by lashing out at the hero at the moment of death, or she is somehow able to make the hero feel the death of the bird themselves, a linked transferrance of the exeirence? However, she cannot do this sort of thing consciously, all of them are reactions on her base card, not a card in her deck (that I found) allows her any psychic damage, it is all summoning birds, which is the first trick she learned. The masks healing might represent a constant stream or connection to whatever power she drew upon that first time. Finally, on her character card, Avian Majesty side (it's more easily seen from the expanded picture in her bio) she is wearing some ancient looking claw thing on a finger of her left hand. This does not appear any where else in her deck (and she doesn't appear anywhere else I can remember) so I don't know the signifgance, but it seemed worth noting.

Good catch on the reality-warping powers, Chaosmancer.  I always thought that Twist the Ether seemed a bit out of place.

I have my own theories on this whole multiverse of powers.

Ra and the Ennead gain their powers through ancient artifacts that grant powers to their bearers, the Egyptian gods were people who were given super powers through artifacts.

Christopher has stated that the Norse gods are not active in the multiverse, yet we have hints at them from a deck of a villain that has superpowers based on. . . an artifact.

So we have ancient artifacts of power, where do they come from?  I don't think they come from Aliens.  I think they come from Atlantis.

Look at The Pillars of Hercules, historically they are the Rock of Gibralter and some other rock formation that marked the path from the Mediterannean to Atlantis.

In this game the Pillars are a part of Atlantis, and are shown as two pillars that grant power.  Taken with the Atlantean font of Power I think it is possible that the pillars and the font are sources of powers, and the artifacts that grant powers could be from Atlantis.

The connection with the Ley Lines (which are used to find Atlantis) and the Scholar are big as well, and the Scholar gets his powers from. . . an artifact.

Atlantis in game is also clearly advanced in technology that is mixed with magic.  Something happens in ancient days that causes Atlantis to sink.  Maybe a few survived, and those few took artifacts from Atlantis with them.  A group of them go to Egypt and are Gods there, others spread out and leave their artifacts behind.

Envisioner bringing up Fanatic and Apostate are interesting as well.

Apostate is one of the Angels kicked out for having children with Human females.  The descendants of these Angels are called Nephilim and are said to be the heroes of old.

So what if Atlantis was the city of these Angels, and it was destroyed in judgement.  Apostate survives, some of the Nephilim survive with artifacts of power.  They are the heroes of old, and they leave their artifacts behind, creating the heroes and villains of today.

Ra, The Ennead, The Scholar, The Matriarch, The Argent Adept, Nightmist, Gloomweaver, Kismet all involve magic relics in their backstory.

A whole group of others involve genetic mutation and chemicals.

What if all this started with Apostate or some other entity even more powerful than him.  It would be easy to make sure these artifacts are found without even needing direct involvement.  It would be easy to lead Baron Blade and others to a few key discoveries that would unlock the genetic lines laying dormant from Nephilim ancestry (why some would survive and others not survive his experiments).

It is quite possible to me that all of this explosion of powers and magic is all part of a larger scheme to bring back the good old days by some power that remembers them.  I for one really like that possibility.

Gah! You are awesome!

Here's an idea, too. Maybe Atlantis only sank because it didn't have Atlanteans anymore. They evolved and left for the stars. Obviously, without maintenance, the remains of civilisation fall apart. If their civilisation, and indeed their island, were built upon a structure of technomagic, it would make sense that it would sink.

But now they're coming back. Maybe it was their plan all along. Maybe they've heard that things are getting out of control on earth.

Goofy theory I came up with - Maybe after the Vengeful Five are defeated, Dr. Stinson will give Lilian the Friction suit and she'll become Kid Tachyon?  This works best if she gets rid of the Mask of the Matriarch after finding out that it's a relic of evil, and that its maker/owner/etc. is coming to destroy the Earth.

Even goofier - maybe Expatriette will put on the Mask and gain the power to summon legions of white doves?  Perhaps Lilian only summons black carrion birds because her heart is dark with resentment and teenage morbidness.  We've observed the glowing white doves that seem to surround Expat, and speculated that they might be the sign of a suppressed superhuman power that neither she nor her mother ever realized she had (perhaps it didn't awaken until after she was "killed" in the scene on her incap side).  The Mask might supercharge that power, or be purified by exposure to it - perhaps it's only a relic of evil when it's worn by someone who has evil in their heart

Theoretical goofiness level 9000 - Maybe what we'll actually get is a hero deck for Citizen Dusk, who plays Charlies' Angels with his daughter Expatriette, now wearing the Mask, along with the Masks's former wearer and her ex-speedster sister, who's now been crippled by Expatriette and now does science from a high-tech wheelchair?  The result is a team that might call itself something along the lines of "Birds of Prey", with one powerless and slightly "dark" badass (Huntress/Lilian), one metahuman (Black Canary / the turns-out-she-actually-does-have-a-power Expat), and one behind-the-scenes hacker expert who isn't even a Target in gameplay terms (Oracle / Dr. Stinson).

The first and third are goofy, but number two is actually quite plausible...

I wonder did John Woo teach her to shoot?