The Radiant Liberator Wields a Radiant Avenger

In Japanese RPGs, it's common for there to be multiple damage types, of which the most common are Fire, Cold and Lightning, often accompanied by Toxic and a few others...sound familiar, anyone?  Well, when the characters are calling on divine power that is especially devastating to demons and the undead, the attacks are spoken of as being "holy damage".  And it dawned on me today, as I played Fanatic's Divine Focus for the first time to wonder whether the "Radiant" damage she's always dealing might have been called "Holy" at some point during the planning stages before SOTM was first released.

If so, I'm glad that this was changed, despite the fact that I've always felt that "Radiant" was kind of a vague name for damage and doesn't really explain why it's hurting things (if it was "Radiation", of course, that would be a very different story, but I suspect that's not where the designers were going with her).  Because it's already a bit suspicious to my non-Xtian self how Fanatic gets superpowers by being a devout fundamentalist (we have Apostate as a possible explanation for why, but it's not like he's much better in that regard).  By labelling her attacks as "Holy", the designers would have been going that much further in the direction of saying "this damage comes directly from the Man Upstairs", and I'm happy they didn't take that step.  SOTM is a comic book game, and technically Chick Tracts are comics, but I for one don't want to play them out; the idea that there might be some other explanation for Fanatic's almost-unique damage type is a source of substantial comfort to me.

(For those who don't know, the topic title is a reference to D&D, where "Holy Avengers" are special magic swords for slaying demons, and "Holy Liberator" is the best-known 3rd edition "prestige class" with "holy" in its name.  The "Holy Slayer" or "Holy Scourge" would line up better with Fanatic, but they're more obscure so I figured I'd go with the one most likely to be recognized by casual grognards.)

I feel obliged to point out that Fanatic is a Catholic, not a Fundamentalist. I understand most Fundamentalist sects are pretty anti-Catholic.

And I feel obligated to point out that typed damage is just as prevalent in Western RPGs, since many of the mechanics in both have their roots in D&D.

I feel obligated to point out that Fanatic left the church, and may or may not have been hunted by them.

Whatever divine power sent her back, she is not beholden to a specific religion, but to a cause of destroying evil.

I would not be surprised at all to find that her powers were natural and evolutionary, and her brain simply coped with them the best it could.

Fanatic believes she is divinely appointed, but that doesn't mean she is, she could be, or she could just be another person doing good the only way she knows how.

Apostate shows that there are more like her, they could be a seperate species from humans and she could be a lost child or a half-breed or something.

I feel obligated to point out that I'm not currently playing a game of SotM.

I feel obligated to point out that if we are to accept the basic premise that these characters exist within a multiverse, there will exist near infinite universes where a Catholic god will actually exist and actually did give Fanatic her powers.  There will also exist near infinite universes where a god does not exist, and Fanatic will be wrong about her own origins.

Edit: as for which type of universe is the one our characters are inhabiting, we have evidence both ways, and can't say anything determinative.

I feel obligated to say that while I agree with this, if Fanatic is the chosen of a god that sponsors a religion, the religious and the chosen certainly aren't on the same page.  I definitely agree with Ra, Fanatic is a lunatic.  Whether she happens to be right or not remains to be seen.

Looking at Apostate, he claims they are the same, and even that she is his creation.

Now we know Apostate to be a liar, but that doesn't mean everything he says is a lie.

The name he claims for himself "Bezaliel" comes from the book of Enoch, a non-canon Jewish text.  He is one of the Angels that came down to have sex with Earth girls.  They even picked one of the most controversial ones.  The name means Shadow of God.

It is quite possible that Bezaliel survived the purge (the possible timing of the creation of hell for the angels who did this) and is indeed the father of Fanatic, which would make Fanatic equivalent to the Nephilim, the mighty men of renown that Goliath was possibly a descendant of.

The followers of the book were some of the first Jews to ascribe to the End of Days as a time of judgement upon man, the Messaiah as a being that existed before creation, they even started using a solar calendar.

It is a very interesting group, and worth looking at if you are interested in religious foundations.  (getting to use my notes from college and wikipedia (gasp) again was fun here)

In my mind Apostate finds a way to hide from the purge of the fallen angels (horny devils) who if I remember correctly were a military style unit of angels (around 200) that all agreed they would do this thing (yes a let's go have sex with Earth Girls pact) together so that they would share punishment.  He is shady and gets out of it, and stays on Earth (possibly why he is left out of the list a lot)  Eventually Fanatic comes into being (old habits die hard) and her life goes on till he figures out who she is, and like a proper not around Dad, comes back to set her life straight.  He finds her believing she is chosen of God to fight evil, and has to find that some pretty good irony.

That is something I did not know and lends credence to the fan theory that  La Capitan and  Apostate are the mother and father of Fanatic.

That's a theory?  Nice.

I imagine part of that theory is that La Capitan is one of the only other decks to use a relic card?

I don't recall that point coming up, but I think the Apostate + La Capitan + Fanatic theory was first sparked off when someone noted that one of La Capitan's names is Helena, the same as Fanatics, and then suggested that for >G to re-use a name in this way, there must be a reason.

that reason being that they used every known Spanish name in La Capitan's name. 

That hat was a joke, no need to start listing Spanish names that weren't used…

At least as far as the most recent edition of D&D--4th, that is--radiant has been an accepted damage type.   Typically, it's associated with light-based attacks.  Lance of Faith, a basic Cleric attack, deals radiant damage.

The reason that WotC--and several other companies, for that matter--got away from Holy damage as a type, is that it becomes subjective at a certain level.  Should a cultist of Cthulhu deal holy damage?  He's certainly using his intrinsic faith to damage someone.  Evil relics like the green soapstone statue or the Shining Trapezohedron are surely holy artifacts to a Cthulhu cultist.

However, the word holy typically has a connotation of goodness and benevolence, so having it attached to damage being dealt by a nominally evil cult is off-putting.  Radiant, however, has no such connotation, but still fits with the stereotypical view of Judeo-Christian heaven:  light, luminescence, halos, etc.

I rather like what >G have done, in terms of their damage types:  Radiant damage comes from light, luminescence, and (potentially, but not stated) a benevolent divine entity.  Infernal damage comes from occult or demonic sources.

What I don't like about damage types is that Energy (lasers) is distinct from Fire (lasers burn things), Lightning (electricity is certainly energy), or Radiant (beams of searing light).  I don't especially like it when any card is dealing energy damage; it seems like a kind of a cop-out, a catch-all for damage types that aren't worth properly classifying.

It's also a bit sad to have shortcuts like "falling rubble = melee" (what do you mean I can't drop Falling Statuary on a starship?  It's falling from really high up!) and "radiation = toxic", though I understand the reasoning behind them.  But that makes it all the more strange that Radiant is distinguished from Energy.

I always took it to mean that Radiant was distinctly different from Energy, in that radiant has a metaphysical angle.   Energy is more science-based damage.  a notable exception is that there are some people who can access radiant damage through tech, but its generally ultra-high tech (the kind that is indistinguishable from magic).  Or Mr Fixer, who has access to the entire spectrum of damage types through his mastery of the martial arts (though this gets back to the metaphysical angle).

At a certain point, you just have to accept that there's not going to be a damage type for every unique situation.  

Falling Statuary deals melee damage because it's one thing hitting into another thing.  I mean, what else would you label it as?  High-Impact Velocity-based damage?  It's too much.

Energy, to me, works in the same run.  It's not lightning, as it's not generated electromagnetically.  It's not fire, as there's not actual combustion.  It's not cold.  It's not divinely inspired, so it's not Radiant.  That equates to a category of its own, nebulous though it may be.  Yeah, you could probably call it "Science!" damage, but that doesn't make much sense in terms of a descriptor.

I tend to see the distinctions as this:

Melee:  A thing runs into a target.  That might be a fist, that might be a falling statue, that might be a hand weapon.

Projectile:  A device fires a solid thing, which runs into a target.  Razer Ordinance, Pride and Prejudice, Grenade Launchers.

Lightning:  Damage specifically coming from electicity or electromagnetics.  Lightning Slash, Chain Lightning.

Fire:  Damage coming specifically from incredible heat or actual combustion:  Fire in the Biosphere, a fireball.

Cold:  Damage coming from a lack of heat or by rapid freezing:  Thermal Shockwave (AZ sucks the heat away from foes), Impale (target is being frozen by a giant icicle).

Infernal:  Damage caused through invoking occult or demonic forces:  Gloomweaver's cultists casting spells, most of Nightmist's deck.

Sonic:  Damage caused by vibration or incredibly loud sounds (such as a sonic boom), which cause pain:  Argent Adept's Syncopated Onslaught accompaniment, Hypersonic Assault.

Toxic:  Damage caused by a harmful element being introduced to a typical human's biology:  Toxic vats, a poisoned bite.

Radiant:  Damage coming from highly focused light or from a benevolent deity:  Exorcism, Brutal Censure.

Energy:  Damage comes from a non-solid source, typically associated with lasers or future technology-based weaponry:  Cosmic Omnitron's base attack, the attacks coming from several of La Capitan's crew.  

I think there are enough cards like that to justify a "rubble" or "tectonic" damage type that represents getting smashed by chunks of earth and stone, rather than attacked by someone hand-to-hand.

Projectile:  A device fires a solid thing

coughMatriarchcough

Fire:  Damage coming specifically from incredible heat or actual combustion

This is exactly why I think lasers (Citizen Dawn, Automaton Drone) ought to deal fire damage.  Other instances of energy damage probably become lightning (Warlord Voss's non-fiery hand…the Ion-Lancer card would have to be entirely revised, but could deal Radiant damage, and maybe throw in one Infernal troop just to complete the set).  This would change interactions with cards like Water Trough, it's true.  Might not be worth it, but I still kinda wanna try.

shrug  Birds are flying at you.  I guess I could see it as melee, though it's not like The Matriarch is physically swinging a bird at you; she's directing them to fly at you and peck.  She's using them as living projectiles.

Tectonic damage?  Really?  I can't think of many other heroes or villains that would translate well into that.  A few environments, yes, but we don't really have an earth-manipulating hero or villain, and the number of cards that would potential deal a "tectonic" damage is minimal.

Also, not all lasers release significant amounts of heat.  It varies, based on the wavelengths of light being used.  As such, I think the differentiation with fire (which I picture as pure, unadulterated heat–see Focused Plasma Cannon or the like) is a reasonable one.  While I agree that Energy is a catch-all, I still think it's a necessary catch-all.

Noo!!! PlatinumWarlock didn't describe Psychic damage! Now I will never know why psychic damage was chosen in the game.

hahaha. I see what you did there. 

I assumed projectile damage was just something flying under power, such as a bullet or a bird, but something that was just falling would do melee.

I don't really think it makes too much difference, but yeah, that's my take.

(I also figure "radiation" would fall under energy, which is a pretty common comic damage source.)

Bunny rabbit damage is still the best damage.

Pfft, you've obviously never used rainbows.

Rainbow rabbit damage.

Or even better, Rainbow Rabit damage, amiright?

My daughter wanted yucky Turnip damage once, and she hasn't even played the game, she just saw the Plague rat in the sewer.

Rainbow Rabit and Yucky Turnip damage… Sound like opposites to me! 

(Now I want to go out and look for nyan rabbits…  Not, you know, a lot, but yeah.)

I JUST used that at-will power last night with my half-orc cleric of The Raven Queen!  Good reference.

I'm personally all for the established damage types.  Some of my players like to refer to "Bubble" damage because of Twist the Ether's artwork.  I'm always a stick in the mud and say "Yeah, but that's probably energy damage like the Explosive Bubbles or cold damage because…bubbles are wet?  Um…yeah.  Bubble isn't an established damage type!"

I never make a big deal out of it, but what can I say?  Sometimes I can be a little allergic to fun.

When we get silly playing game's -- which is every time -- we tend to start renaming damage to something very loosely related to the original type, first to repeat a damage type... or stray so far from the original that no connection can be found has to take a drink. 

I've owned three pet rabbits. On of them was quite big and somewhat stroppy and HATED being picked up - of course I had to pick him up sometimes and he was never very impressed.

And let me assure you, bunny rabbit damage is far worse than it sounds. Those claws are sharp, and those back legs are very strong. Once you've been scratched by a rabbit you don't forget it in a hurry.

My current rabbit is very small and far too confident to resort to violence the vast majority of the time, but I'm certain I wouldn't want to mess with him if he ever got in a scratching mood.

The last time I took bunny damage, it was because I was full...

Lance of Faith has something of a place of honor at our game table.  When you have nothing else to do, no encounter/daily powers left, you can always rely on "Lllllllance of Faith!"

Does your rabbit have big sharp pointy teeth?

RUN AWAY!

And now we come full circle, since the weapon used to defeat the killer bunny was the Holy Handgrenade.

Now, does a Holy Hand Grenade deal Radiant, Fire, or Projectile damage? ;)

I owned a pet rabbit named snowball.  Adorable little thing.  It wouldn't eat celery, carrots, lettuce, or any other vegetable we fed it.  It did eat rabbit food pellets, upholstery and chicken wire.  When it started eating wooden table legs we had to get rid of it.

It deals all five.

For clarification:

1. Projectile damage

2. Fire damage

3. Radiant damage

4. Grenade damage

5. Holy Hand damage (colloquialy known as "Jesus damage")

Three, sir!

5. Holy Hand damage (colloquialy known as "Jesus damage")

Not to ever be confused with Jazz Hand damage, that is straight infernal.

Thank you. That was a litmus test.

GET ON WITH IT!

Yeah, they definitely have the urge to chew stuff! Mine still attempts to nibble the furniture despite training and distraction and plenty of chewable objects in his cage - it's like he just can't help himself sometimes because furniture is just too tempting. He's pretty intelligent and learns fast, especially with anything to do with food, but chewing's his blind spot all right. I'd never trust him loose around the house without constant supervision (cables!), in the same way I wouldn't trust my Labrador alone with an unguarded piece of meat. And I don't trust the Lab alone with the rabbit, for fear that bunny would become a guarded piece of meat.

This thread is getting too silly.


(Can't have too much Python in one thread)

It's only a model.

so posting this doesn't make it any more silly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXvtany3mSE

What is your quest?

DOUBLE SUN POWER!

I need to remember to yell that whenever I get more than one 'Solar Flare' on the field…

They can't be Old Spice commercials - where's the O fortuna music? Why is no-one surfing?

Okay, so I've clearly marked myself out as a British person of a particular age. *shrug*

Oh, Christopher, hitting the perfect note of understatement with a quote that is famous enough to be recognizable but not so famous as to be obvious. There's simply not a more congenial spot for happily-ever-aftering than here in the GTG forums.

Andy: Golf claps for musical references.

About what it deserved, I'd say.

A badly kept secret  about me is that when I'm tired, overcaffeneited, or rushed, I have trouble reining in my tendency to just blurt out whatever randomness comes into my head. Today I am all three.

I stand corrected on my original post here, but at least two people (Jagarciao here as well as Rabit) didn't catch me on my error - Falling Statuary is projectile damage.  So yes, Warlord Voss always parks his spaceships under the gargoyles of a Rook City cathedral.  (Or maybe the anti-gravity drive of the Dreadnought and Flagship can make things fall up, but only under very specific circumstances.)