Villains as heroes

Omnitron X is one of our favorite characters around here. We dig the villain-to-hero thing. Which villains would YOU like to see as heroes?

My favorite idea- Voss takes over Earth, gene-bounding the two types of troops he just can't get anywhere else: celebrity bloggers, and superheroes. Of course, the heros made it easy for them, grouping together to defend major population centers. From her remote hideaway, a wanted woman knows someone has to fight. She may be thought of as a terrorist and a madwoman by most of her fellow Earthlings, but the destiny of her people cannot be stopped by these aliens anymore than they could be by Earth's supposed "sentinels." She leaves her hideout and begins a guerrilla war against the invaders. She becomes: DAWN OF THE RESISTANCE.

from the Dreamer's art we can speculate there eventually be a Thortharian Hero.

I think Ambuscade would make a cool hero; since he's a big game hunter I can easily see him going after, say, Akash'Bhuta.

Though she's not really a villain, I think it would be completely adorable for Dreamer to grow up to be a hero, possibly being trained by Visionary.

Uh… You know she actually is the Visionary, right?

If you didn't know, we'd be happy to share that story with you!

Isn't she an alternative timeline Visionary, therefore not quite the same person? I know Vanessa goes back in time to save her baby self... but if she changes the past she creates a new timeline, right?

Omnitron is to Omnitron-X as Citizen Dawn is to _________

I have done some Villain vs. Villain games, but they don't work well at all, what to do with Equip destruction and even then there's not a lot of ways to get around each villains methods.

I've been thinking of a villain+hero team vs. two villains scenario but that is a big undertaking.

As far as Villains turn heroes, I'd go with Kismet and La Capitan having the highest chance of turning over a new leaf, where Chariman, Baron Blade, Ambuscade, Dawn, and maybe Plague Rat I could see making temporary alliances with heroes to fight a common enemy.

Apostate.  Once he doesn't have that overzealous Fanatic constantly attacking him for no reason, he'll be free to give up cliche black-hat theatrics and turn into a gritty 80's style Satanist black-metal vigilante, fighting evil megacorps to make the world safe for hot slutty chicks.  \m/ //O\\  \m/

Yes, but the Visionary went back in time to save her past self (and apparently failed, since the Dreamer has powers). I don't remember if it's due to alternate timelines, which is neater, or not, but there are two Vanessa Longs of different ages and skill levels in one place at the same time. Why couldn't she teach her alternate/past self how to use her powers more effectively and less dangerously?

EDIT: Sorry, managed to fail to quote the post I was replying to. Somehow.

Expatriette?

Citizen Dawn-X!  (what do I win?)

You win a Helpful Aurora.  It puts all the cards in the trash into play.

Woo hoo!

Well, I believe that the future vanessa was part of a government project that developed her powers, so I don't know if she'd be able to train her younger self if she had an entire government budget and resources.

Also at some point she becomes Dark Visionary who really might not want to "train" anyone, let alone actually continue to be a hero for much longer…

How about a game where you run a villain against a few heroes?

It'd be interesting to try to design a "reverse Sentinels" game, where the hero decks are all automated and the villain has choices every turn.  Actually, that gives me an idea....

I did one game where someone wanted to play the villain so we played against an easy villain but gave the villain a hand of three cards, they would draw up to three then pick which card to play.  It worked really well with Baron Blade.  We didn't let them control the environment deck, but I could see doing that as well, maybe with only a choice of two cards to keep it more random.

I have no idea how you would automate heroes, since there is no targetting in their damage abilities, and targetting the wrong villain target very much at all would lead to certain doom.

I suppose you'd have to rebuild the hero decks somewhat...

Weee we get a visionary promo with hair … that will look like wraith and bring oh so much more confusion into the mix

More then a game mechanic this needs to be a movie … I would watch the hell out of it

I had kind of forgotten the whole "hungers for a thousand souls" thing with his sword…he might be more than technically Evil, so him as simply a misunderstood badass being harassed by an overly judgmental Templar is not quite the reality of it.  Still, I think a "dark" and anti-heroic character would be a good addition to the Sentinels canon.

It's ok if he only consumes "evil" souls...

I wonder how the vengeance five would hold up as heroes, because I'd personally love to play proletariat, the whole multiplying thing mixed with communist dogma, man that would be fun to roleplay.

Even if not for the quotation marks, that would be a very disturbing statement.  Remember, Hitler thought he was a hero protecting Aryan society from the Hebrew menace.  Anytime you have a group of people labelled as unworthy of human dignity, no matter what their ostensible crimes, it's a recipie for injustice.

Apologies... forgot to turn on the sarcasm font

Really, Godwin's law so early?  :]  Godwin's law - Wikipedia

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."

I'm surprised it took this long…

NAZIS!!!

Ambuscade FTW! Everytime I play against him I'm long to play as him and as you said it wouldn't be hard to accept him switching sides after all the villians would make for some great hunts, I mean who wouldn't want a alien warlord stuffed in their living room or to mount the heads of gods on your wall!

Well from the looks of things in Vengeance, Ambuscade seems to be taking his hero-hunting to new heights, I doubt the heroes would have him at this point.

There was also a comment from Christopher in a podcast way back when, about a potential scenario in Sentinel Tactics involving Ambuscade being hired by The Chairman. Which, you know, doesn't exactly scream 'good guy'.

Oh man, I want to play that right now.  Would be sick.

As weak as Ambuscade is normally, in the V5 conversion he's wicked, just lobbing damage at you while you are trying to deal with other villains, it's nasty.  And of course V5 Blade's advanced text makes him so much harder.

The Proletariat suggestion is a good one. The Red Army is what stopped the Nazis, after all- say what you want about the USSR but that's historical fact. Proletariat got a raw deal- grows up during some of the worst years of the Soviet terror, fights on the Eastern Front, gets experimented on, frozen in carbonite, then used as a tool by Baron Blade because he doesn't know any better? Harsh! We'd like the chance to play him as a hero, both for the mechanics and for the aesthetics.

Awesome idea he might be playable with little modifications: Double up his cards, make ongoings limited and change his power to

Commy Strike: Deal a target two melee damage

And let the player direct the instances of damage where he wills except for the self damage of course. Would need playtest to actually balance but the fact that he is worth 1 H means is probably isn't too far from an actual hero's power level. It strikes me that he shares a lot of common ground with Unity as he has the same weakness against damage to all hero targets.

Incap powers: Destroing an environment card; Destroy a hero card to heal that hero's caracter card 3 Hp; Increase next damage dealt by a hero target by 2

those are for the sake of an example

Shouldn't his power target everyone, since it's a "Commy Strike" eveyone should get the same

The power<s intent was to reflect the 2 damage he does at the end of his turn usually and he can't have cards that deal multiple instances of damage else everyman<s strengh would level the playing field. I also forgot the 4 nemesis cards meaning 8 more cards would be needed, probably something to deal with ongoings and environment as a one shot three times in the deck, maybe equipment like the Hammer and the Sickle and another tutor card that gives yout the choice between getting a clone or an equipment from your deck. Add limited to his ongoings to prevent abuse. To top it off an incapacited side with him in a straightjacket since he couldn't stand the mental strain of the clones anymore.

Proletariat seems to only use a hammer in combat; the sickle seems to just be on his costume.  Probably wanted to make sure the Party didn't mistakenly assume he was a farmer.

I was only poking fun. I am waiting on my vengeance so I don't really know much about him but I couldn't let a joke like that go unsaid. However I believe he would be very bitter towards the USA and wouldn't have much interest in siding with Legacy or anyone who would unless the threat was aimed at the motherland itself and even then he might not care much since it's no longer communist and could feel like a betrayal to him.

He still defines himself as Everyman and thus I could see him take down villains that opress the small people like Ambuscade on impending casuality, then again the guy is defined by mental strain from his ability could that have led to mental instability if so he could come riding in battle on his Bipolar bear like russian Bear Cavalry (ok they never existed by neither have superheroes) of simply be too much of a wackjob at this point.

Proletariat would be opposed to The Chairman, Voss, Iron Legacy and Dawn pretty easily.  Their style of power (political, not super) is something he would oppose.

He would also be likely to oppose most of the other villains simply because he'd be protecting the people.

He'd have to come to some awakening that shattered his faith in the old ways that he believed in, that would lead him to question the evil nature of the US.

Then find himself looking simply to protect the innocent from whatever power would oppress them.

He would probably see the Citizens of the Sun as a mockery of Communism which exalts "freaks" at the expense of normal people.  I figure in particular he'd have a beef with Citizen Winter, on account of the whole ice thing.

I've trying to work out a Proletariat hack that I like, but really, he's the hardest of the V5 to convert.

None of them are easy per say, since you need a lot more cards - you can't just double everything, because before you do that, you take out 4-5 Nemeses.  And having 4x each of a couple of One-Shots is often awkward.  Factor in their lack of Ongoings, and a few other things, and the only one I can see as not just designing a new Hero from the group up is Friction... and only her because we already have that Hero.

But Proletariat is in a league of his own.  Extra targets which deal repeatable damage are very strong - there's a good reason why Unity has to jump through hoops to get them out, and even then, against villains who are weak on global damage, she frequently makes the game a joke.  Proletariat, however, has an even harder to balance gimmick - his own health, similar to Golem Unity.  Getting that to a place where it works as a Hero while not playing too much like the Golem is tough.  I haven't had an idea I really like yet.

On the plus side, a V5 deck minus the Nemeses (and therefore not Blade) can work on its own as an addition to a team of Heroes - its plays remain random (villains are inconsistent allies, after all), you increase H by one to account for the help, and see what happens.

Flavorfully, though, I do still hope for a full redemption for poor Proletariat.

Dude, a Proletariat hero would be SWEET!

HAMMER OF THE PEOPLE

You fight the people, you fight ALL OF THE PEOPLE

... Have I mentioned that Proletariat is my favorite character in Sentinels, bar none?

I don't know that he's my favorite character in Vengeance, let alone all Sentinels, but he's definitely far and away my favorite of the Vengeance Five.

Some random ideas:

Baron Blade "Redemption": Time traveling version of Baron Blade that returns from a time where he has "won" but his victory left the Earth a smoldering wasteland. It is only when he was the last person alive did he realize how blind his mania made him. He goes back in time to stop himself from creating that horrible time line. Possible game mechanics could include time slipping equipment for use so long as they go into the trash and never return after a certain number of turns ("stealing his own devices from the future") or a desperation mechanic that lets him play more turns if he steadily damages himself ("growing more manic as he slowly slips back into his time").

Refugee Prince Voss: Voss as a conscientous objector to the military action of the Thorathian Army. Eventually when he sees that his planet's army is pursuing Tempest to Earth, he can remain silent no longer. Turning traitor to the Thorathian Sovereign, he arrives to our planet early, offering our Heroes whatever help he can. I see a personality much closer to Beast of the X-Men: still hulking with superhuman strength and a genuis at genetics, but much more mild and educated. I see his gameplay and deck being a nearly even split between direct damage dealing with his impressive strength and technology and providing buffs to damage, card draw and extra actions in the form of voluntary gene therapy serums. Because what monster would restructure with another living thing's genetic structure without express permission and informed consent?

Skald of the Ages Matriarch: Almost the exact same back story with the Matriarch, except when Lillian acquires the Mask she has a moment of expanded empathy as she sees the entire world through the eyes of the flock. Raised up from her adolescent melodrama, she saw the suffering of orphans, the sick and dying from all corners of the globe as birds fly overhead and acted as her eyes. She saw the cruelty of those who would take advantage of the weak with shocking clarity. While in the esctacy of this revelation, two compatriots perched upon her shoulder and whispered into her ears the ageless tales of triumph and tribulations that all the former wearers of the Mask lived through. Her sensitive heart was moved liked it never has been in her young life and she dedicated herself to fighting all manners of injustice. Wherever avian eyes spy evil, she would not be far behind. Her sense of drama is still there, mind you, but at least her poetry has improved greatly. As for gameplay...I actually am not so sure. I see a lot of deck control and multi-attacks in one turn I guess? Somewhere between Chrono Ranger and Visionary?

Oathbound Demon Nightgloom: Time can lead us all to strange, unexpected places. Even demon lords may find themselves in very strange alliances. In his near eternal life, Gloomweaver had waited patiently for a chance to enter our realm and his opportunity had finally arrived in the form of inexperienced occultist, Faye Diamond. This young sorceress had cast a spell (The Mists of R'lyeh) that left her mind and soul vulnerable to possession by Gloomweaver. Immediately upon forcing herself into Faye's body did he realize it was a trap set by her and her mystical tutor, the Master. Faye was not only waiting for Gloomweaver to enter her, she was ready and able maintain her free will and had the mystical strength to harness Gloomweaver's power for her own ends! Once a demon of near infinite malice, Gloomweaver and his mortal host, Faye Diamond, are now inextricably bound. What's more to his horror, the longer he resides within Faye's mind, the more he can feel a new emotion gestate and begin to take root within his ageless soul: empathy! The two-in-one mystical entity now known as Nightgloom risks using the foulest and darkest of mystic arts for the (hopefully) purest goals. For gameplay, I could see a card that is Gloomweaver possessing Faye's shadaow and stepping slightly outside of her to cast spells along side her (kind of like a high HP Unity Golem) and many of the spells in the deck having riders that offer bonuses if Gloomweaver is out. Perhaps a defensive ongoing that lets them split incoming damage between them.

I picture that Baron Blade going back during the shattered timelines and trying to kill an older Legacy, blaming the Parsons for the future Baron creates.

That Matriarch could be cool, and Gloomweaver, that's not one I would have thought of.

I would like to see a Villain of Tempest.  An alternate timeline where he goes a bit crazy and hunts Voss to Earth, and is stranded when the heroes defeat Voss, Tempest Blames them for ruining his revenge and goes after them.

I fully support the idea of Matriarch and Proletariat becoming heroes (the Matriarch one being the original "she's not really that bad" idea), but these latest ideas are starting to get a bit excessive for my taste.  Am I the only one who pretty much likes the characters as they are, and would rather not see a bunch of Bearded-Spock alternates to them just for the sake of doing so?  Sure, I get that Nightgloom is basically an Etrigan reference, but Misty is not Jason Blood and Gloomweaver is not Etrigan, so can we maybe just respect the coolness of the characters in their existing form, instead of trying to shoehorn them into other tropes that really aren't a great fit for their established personalities?  I mean, if Baron Blade is capable of being rational and giving up his quest for Vengeance, then what exactly is his defining characteristic, and what narrative role does he serve by even existing?  Supervillains don't behave like reasonable, fallible human beings; that's the whole point of them being supervillains.  (And the Voss idea is even further off; you didn't even bother to point out that this is clearly not the same Voss who took the Thorathians over and set out to conquer the galaxy, you just described him behaving like the exact opposite of his normal characterization, without any further explanation.)

I thought that was on the table. Like, alternate timeline roulette and "What if?" versions of the villians along with stuff that could actually get published. Since this is just for this topic (and in theory, just for fun), I feel no need to be particularly restrained.  I'll stop if you ask me to.

I'm just happy someone got the Etrigan reference.

Okay, well I won't ask just yet.  If you seem inclined to do the likes of this for EVERY damn villain, then I may feel compelled to say something.

Anyway, I'll go with one who we already know becomes a hero, I'm just going to make him become a unique hero rather than an inheritor.  (Spoilered below.)

Two words:  Knight Train.

Understood. 

I'd like Plague Rat vs. the Organization.  Not Plague rat as a hero, but joining some heroes in a quest to bring down the people who caused his transformation.  It could lead to Plague Rat being a sometime hero, mostly he hides away in the sewers, but he will come out and help save the day vs. the right villains, or help heroes track someone who is hiding out in the Rat's areas of the city.

Infection would be cool as a hero card, you would put it on a villain target, it deals them 1 toxic at the start of your turn (like a weak impale) with the added effect of letting you redirect one instance of damage and destroy the infection.

Some cards for your familiarity with teh sewer system, and things that would let you destroy an infection to do different things, as well as one-shots that would put Infections on targets.

could be a really cool deck.

I totally played that just recently!  Tempest got exiled once and for all by his pacifist species and bugged out.  We played it using Tempest's deck, only with a few tweaks (his Equipment became Devices - 5 HP for shackles and 7 for the Subwave Inducer, Cleansing Downpour became a clone of Flesh-Repair Nanites, Environment destruction worked on Equipment instead, that sort of thing), only he had 50 HP, +1 to all damage, immunity to Environment damage, and whever he played a damaging One-Shot, he got to dish out an extra 4 damage to the highest-HP Hero Target at the end.  It was brutal, and we barely prevailed.

To manage a Hero's level of "lots of situational cards," we had someone just play him per normal with a four-card hand and all, but it wouldn't be too hard to tack some hacks like that and rebuild him into a standard 20-card Villain deck.

Random I-should-have-been-in-bed-hours-ago thought:

Proletariat as Hero could have Clone cards where their HP are on a descending scale, since each is a copy of a copy of a.... and therefore each is degraded from the previous copy.

I don't think that's how Proletariat works, though; I suspect that all of his clones are equally 'him', as opposed to being copies and copies of copies...

Ooh, another thought for a Prol hero: let him put out clones that have some benefit - either automatic damage or extra draws/plays/powers - but as well as potentially giving them a psychic damage cost a la villain Prol, make it so that they share one health bar. Lots more stuff to do, but area attacks get nasty...