Who do you think would win...

Which team do you think would win?  The freedom four (Legacy, Bunker, Tachyon, and Wraith) vs. the known Prime Wardens (Argent Adept, Haka, Tempest, and Fanatic)?

The Freedom Four.

The Prime Warden have more raw power (and overall coolness), but less experience working together as a group.

And considering that Legacy might even be able to take them all on by himself...

I know this isn't 100% supported by the game play (or by comics-logic) but shouldn't Tachyon win.. every time?

I mean, homegirl can hit you before you know what happened. I know she's not particularly strong, but... couldn't she like tie everyone's shoelaces or something?

Most of them wear boots that don't have laces.

And now we know why.

I would have to go with Prime Wardens, if it were an actual battle and not gameplay.

For starters, between the two most resilent people on each side, Legacy and Haka, Legacy can get hurt by Haka, Argent, and Fanatic very easily, Tempest probably could hurt him, but have trouble. While with Haka, Legacy is probably the only one that could hurt him easily. Tachyon would have to push herself to the limits, while Bunker's Omnicannon can do the trick, it takes charging time.

Bunker is slow moving and relies on his suit too much. Considering what Haka has done to a tank and what Argent has done to a Space Ship, outlook on him lasting long is very poor.

Considering Tempest's control of the wind, Wraith's knives will easily be shut down, micro-targeting computer or not. It probably won't stop Bunker's Flak Cannon, but it will at least weaken it.

Also about Tempest, his control over lightning will make things even more difficult for the FF to move around as they have to be constantly aware of the Lightning. Well besides Legacy, he has Danger Sense after all.

Finally, the FF will have to gang up on Fanatic to take her out, as she gets more powerful with every blow. Since there are so many only members, they will not be able to do so early on. Meaning they will want to avoid hitting her as much as possible.

I think the mid point of the match will only consist of Legacy and Tachyon versus Haka, and Fanatic. I don't see Legacy and Tachyon out lasting either of these two, as previously mentioned Tachyon will be using a lot of energy to even land a hit on Haka. Plus Haka's natural healing is impressive, so hits towards him do recover fast over time. Then of course Fanatic, probably beaten quite a bit at this point, meaning she could beat down a injured Legacy.

I think the freedom four get the advantage of first strike, due to Wraith's stealth and Tachyon's speed.  Between the two of them, they can take out Argent Adept pretty quick - too sneaky and fast for the other Wardens to effectively defend their squishy wizard.

Legacy can hit Haka, and the two are likely to be physically matched.  Both tough and strong, and they hit a stale mate.  They'll likely pound on each other while they wait for their remaining teammates to decide the battle.  Bunker has a flak cannon for anti-air attacks against Fanatic, and he can breath underwater, which allows him to go after Tempest.

Now that the Prime Wardens know what hit them, they can counter attack.  Haka continues grappling with Legacy, while Fanatic and Tempest Dismantle the bunker; they took some hits from him, but not enough to take them out.

Then it's kind of a cat and mouse game.  Legacy and Haka pound away at each other, while Tempest and Fanatic hunt around for Wraith and Tachyon.  Wraith and Tachyon have a hard time hurting those two, but can avoid most of the attacks as well. 

At this point, it becomes a question of which team can get their tank out of stalemate.  Wraith can snipe at Haka with her dart gun and weaken him, while Tachyon can occasionally hit him for a lightspeed barrage.  Tempest probably can't do much of anything to Legacy (not without hurting Haka), but Fanatic can hit Legacy HARD.  However, like Ironic pointed out, the Freedom Four have better team work.  I think they'd manage to drop Haka before Legacy falls, and from there finish up the remaining two.  If Legacy can take out Tempest (which is possible, but complicated, since unlike Superman, Legacy actually needs to breathe).  Then Wraith can snipe away at Fanatic while she finishes knocking Legacy out.

Then, a badly hurt Fanatic has to battle a weary Wraith and Tachyon, and will probably lose.  She can't stair airborn forever, because Wraith can keep sniping at her.  But, whenever she flies down to engage Wraith in melee, she gets suckerpunched by Tachyon.

Oh the scenerio is the FF ambushing the Prime Wardens?

If that's the case than the FF will easily win. Legacy Flying from above, smashing Fanatic into the ground. Bunker blast Haka with a charged Omni-cannon. Tachyon rushing in and hitting Argent at full speed. And Wraith launching all her equipment at Tempest.

It depends a bit on the location of the fight.

Freedom Four has tactical teamwork, precision, stealth, and speed.  While Prime Wardens are more raw power / natural energies.

So freedom four has an advantage in a location with stuff for cover and concealment vs Prime Wardens having the advantage in open fields.

also the rules of the fight... are they worried about damage to locals, if so, prime wardens might hold back and therefore get nerfed in that process while freedom four is already about price attacking and therefore is not nerfed by worrying about local civillians.

and so on...

but if you stuck them out in an open field and they went at it, i'm say prime wardens.

if you stuck them in Rook City/Megalopolis or something like that, then I'd say Freedom Four

That's a really good point.  I hadn't thought about environements.  That probably does decide who wins.  Wraith's stealth and Tachyon's speed don't help much in the Realm of Discord, and Tempest should be romping powerful in the Ruins of Atlantis.

I don't think that matters, even if it were the Prime Wardens ambushing the FF exactly how long do you think it would take for Tachyon to realise they were under attack and then respond?

And Wraith, the Wraith is always ready, planning five moves ahead, that's why she's the goddamn Wraith.

In what environment?

Mars base: sequence ends, everybody dies.

An ambush would still be in favor of one side over the other. If Prime Wardens were to ambush the FF, all it actually would be is send Fanatic in and wreck the heck out of the land by bringing forth the end of days. I'm not so sure that will give proper reaction time.

So if they were to have a fair battle, then both parties should be aware and it would have to be somewhere that they would be on equal grounds.

Well, why don't we PVP this and try it out? I'm sure someone's suggested rules for hero vs hero already.

It really wouldn't be hard to do as a one-on-one match.

One person would be the Prime Wardens, the other would be the Freedom 4.  Coin flip determines who goes first and if there's any conflict as to which team takes environmental damage.  Most times, there won't likely be conflict, as the Environment will usually target the lowest hp, the highest hp, or all targets.

Something like Take Down would only affect one Hero Deck, I'd say...  I can't really think of any other cards that would need any alteration.

You'd probably also have to alternate between sides:  F4, PW, F4, PW, until everyone has gone, then Environment turn.  Maybe even do an Environment turn halfway in between, as well.

Gameplay:  (assuming original heroes for all)  I do a lot of pvp and how this would go down: Legacy can tank Haka all day if he gets lead from the front and next evolution, Tachyon with damage boosted is a nightmare pvp, those Hyspersonic assaults stink, and Wraith with sucker punch and stun bolts can really hurt fanatic or Tempest.  The strength of the Wardens is Haka if you can keep Legacy from tanking him, and Tempest being a boss.  What it always comes down to though is card destruction.  (we play that ongoing destruction also hits equips and the hero destroying chooses what is destroyed) AA has the huge advantage here, as he can perform away any card he wants, Tempest with Ball lightning is also a beast, and Haka is the only one lacking any destruction, although end of days isn't a great option most fights.  On the F4 side Tachyon and Wraith carry the burden.

With Vernal Sonata and Reclaim from the deep, and the superiority in card destruction I'd say most games are going to the Wardens.  Card destruction really hurts Legacy, and Haka can generally outburst Tach in a short game.  One-shot damage goes to the Wardens as well, even with the F4 boosted one Tempest is going to nuke down the F4 faster than they can deal with him.

By the generally most important attributes I'd go Wardens pretty heavily:

One shot burst:  Wardens

Base power damage:  Wardens

Less ongoing/equip dependent:  Wardens

Card destruction:  Wardens

Damage negation:  F4

Real Imaginary world combat:  The freedom four need Legacy to tank Haka, which he could do for a while.  They have to get AA out of the fight, which Wraith and Tach could do, while Bunker tried to hold off fanatic and Tempest.  AA needing protection would be the achilles heel of the Wardens, they should let him lose while eliminating Bunker, I honestly don't think you could focus Wraith or Tachyon down, they can go evasive pretty well and buy time.  Focusing Tempest and AA down is the key, once they are out Haka can be beat.  Fanatic is a wild card, as she could really turn the tide or have little impact, depending on how well you manage her.

I understand that AA isn't superhumanly tough, but I don't think you guys are giving him enough credit in most of your analysises (sp). If we look at this outside the card game, which is how this started, AA would theoritically have access to all of his songs. That makes him fairly tough with his defensive boost, healing, and extra actions. If it isn't a complete ambush AA really makes it a tough fight for the F4, I don't think he'll be taken out before he can act.

Also, a point not mentioned yet, the Prime Wardens are the only side that has healing for the team members. Tempest and AA can heal the entire team, while Haka can heal himself and Fanatic can bring herself back from the dead (overstatement but fun). The only similiar things for the F4 are Wraiths self-healing and Bunker's self-healing.  Legacy and Tachyon have no way to recover from the hits they take.

Uhm... motivantional charge for Legacy counts. And Synaptic interrupt for Tachyon redirects damage, which is even better than healing.

Oops, forgot motivational charge. Legacy has never been my first choice of hero so I'm a little weak on his cards.

As for synaptic interruption, it is good, but it isn't better than healing. It prevents damage and hurts someone else sure, but consistent healing over a game can make up for far more health. Tempest's cleansing downpour is much better in terms of protecting health. It can also be used more than once.

This is true in the normal game, but in PVP the game is fast and all about focusing down key opponents.  Tachyon's redirection is much better than Tempest's heal, his heal is rarely usefull enough to forego damage (unless the Scholar is involved, or your choice is his base power or the heal and you have no good one-shots to play instead.)

Damage prevention trumps healing, and ongoing destruction trumps both (since both are almost always done with ongoing or equip cards).  When your targets all have 34 health or less, quick burst damage is the real king.  Synaptic is a crushing PVP card, because it redirects back to your team, so you either avoid hitting Tach with big shots or use an ongoing destruction to get rid of it first.

In an actual PvP game, I think the FF win handily as well, due to their sheer breadth of damage manipulation.  Smoke Bombs and a ton of Legacy's cards grant all-important control over incoming damage.  On top of that, the Smoke Bombs (and, really, Wraith's whole setup) are virtually indestructible in a PvP game, since heroes almost never get "Destroy an Equipment card" effects.

Indeed, this advantage is so powerful, if I were going to regularly have SotM PvP matches, I think I would introduce some variant rule such as, "each time a Character Target takes damage, reduce all damage from enemy sources by one until the start of that Character's next turn," just to have a reason for people to do something other then mash on the enemy's weakest guy until they go down, and repeat.

Ironic

P.S. Belatedly, it does occur to me that the Prime Wardens do have every method I know of to "legitimately" (I.E., not things that were meant to only sacrifce your own or an ally's cards) get rid of Equipment as a hero: End of Days, Into The Stratosphere, and Cedistic Dissonant, so maybe the equipment thing isn't such a huge edge in this specific match - especially not when half of the FF have no Ongoing destruction at all.

We play that any hero card that destroys villain ongoing also can target equipment.  Since Villains don't have equipment it helps balance the games, because the only way for heroes to destroy equipment is usually their own, unless you allowed Unity to target her opponents equipment to turn into golems, in which case Unity would be unstoppable.  Otherwise it is just too rough on ongoing based heroes as their stuff is constantly destroyed while someone like the Wraith is unstoppable.  If you play that way the Wardens have way too much destruction for the F4 to win very often.

If you only allow ongoing destruction than Bunker and Wraith are killers, but Legacy is going to do nothing but watch his cards die.

I'm actually going to play this match-up today, just have to pick the environment.

I just finished playing this matchup (with no Environment, and anti-Environment cards targetting Equipment instead), and it was a total blowout in favor of the Freedom Four - only Tachyon went down, all the rest of them had over 10 HP, while Fortitude, Lead From The Front, and Smoke Bombs were all in play, so even a LOT more damage would have only had moderate effect.  However, I attribute the win less to the FF's damage manipulation abilities than to the Prime Wardens' laughably bad draws - Haka never got a damaging One-Shot (and only drew weapons in the last two turns), Fanatic only got one healing card and no Aegis, End Of Days, or (the most terrifying PvP card among all eight decks) Wrathful Retribution, and Tempest only got one damaging One-Shot, and no damaging Ongoings besides a Localized Hurricane (which was obviously too risky to play).  Draws like that would leave you struggling to beat Ambuscade, much less the Freedom Four.

Ironic

Neat stuff–I wonder how the PW would do with a better draw.

How did you run the turns:  one side then the other or alternating?  Did you do a mid-round environment draw as well?

I might help "add some data" to the project if I'm feeling up to it tonight…

Alternating.  Specifically, it was Argent Adept, Legacy, Fanatic, Wraith, Tempest, Tachyon, Haka, Bunker.

And, as I said, I didn't use an Environment.  That mechanic exists to keep fights against the same villain from being too similar to each other, but with eight 45-card decks to draw from, and all of them actually making decisions rather than having the "A.I." of the Villains, I didn't think that would be a factor, so much as yet another thing for me to keep track of in my eight-player solo game.

This conversation reminds me of the current run in the New 52 Justice League of America ongoing.  Steve Trevor and Amanda Waller round up a team of heroes (and some grey area capes) to take out the Justice League if they ever get out of hand (Martian Manhunter vs. Superman, Catwoman vs. Batman, Vibe vs. The Flash, etc.).  It's been...well, sort of good some of the time (as most New 52 is, short of Aquaman and Dial H for Hero which are both amazing).  The point is, would The Prime Wardens each have one hero subdue, neutralize, or tie-up one other hero on the Freedom Four?  Do they just take on whoever they can take on at the moment?  A mix of both, with a hero having a primary target with secondary responsibilities for managing the opposing team as a whole?

Also (I hope this isn't derailing the topic) who do you folks think would be YOUR Freedom Four Busting or Prime Wardens Busting team would be?

EDIT:  Minor point, Ironic, but there are 41 cards per hero, with 1 character card and 40 cards in the deck.

Played this at the Block, with ongoing destruction destroying either equip or ongoing (although I really like the idea of no environment and enviro targetting equip).

We flip at the start, then put the heroes in play order first to last (alternating teams) and the person who puts a hero in play first is the first to play.  The order was Legacy-Tempest-Tachyon-Haka-Wraith-Adept-Bunker-Fanatic.  (Fanatic last for end of days going off right away)

Legacy got fortitude and next evolution at the start, and drew Lead from the front his first turn.  Haka went after wraith and Tach with Taiaha first turn, wraith pulled razor ord. and bunker had flak cannon and G-gun so Argent Adept dropped quickly, he had Temepst play two cards before he died.

AA started boosting lightning damage as Tempest got Lightning storm and sub-wave enducer.  Legacy could absorb Tempest or Haka but not both, after a chain lightning and all lightning boosted round Legacy focused on stopping the lightning rather than Haka, and a HoB later Wraith and Tach were at 6 health.

Bunker, Tempest, Haka and Legacy had -1 damage, Wraith had razor, utility belt and stun bolts, Bunker had grenade, Flak, G-Gun and armor (no turret mode the whole game)  Tach had synaptic, Fanatic did not have absolution, tempest had the same as above and Haka had Taiaha when the Block dropped Defensive Displacement.

With Legacy able to tank the one shots from Tempest (-3 damage) and Haka with an empty hand there was almost no damage being done.  Tach got her hand up, Fanatic got consecrated ground and Tempest got Ball lightning.  Tempest kills Lead from the front and synaptic following Legacy's turn, then Haka Rampages and Taiaha, dropping Tach and Wraith to 3 health.  Wraith stealths and Tach puts out a second Synaptic (she had nothing else to play) Fanatic plays consecrated ground, destroying the bubble (2 prison breaks had all five inmates out), eating Wraiths shield and dropping Tach to one health, whe then attacked wraith putting them both at one health for the environment turn, where Char killed both of them.

With boosts from Wraith (destroying ongoing) and Tach and a new Lead from the front Legacy and Bunker drop Fanatic the rest of the way (she was the only person taking damage when the bubble was out) and nearly pulled off the comeback, but Tempest drew reclaim, Fanatic let him play it to get ball lightning back, which he destroyed lead from the front and bunkers armor, then Haka played punish the weak and with Argent giving him a second power Bunker was dead.  Legacy held on for three turns with all the help he was getting (cards from trash to hand and play really helped) but in the end he could only negate one type of damage and Tempest got a second inducer, played in on fanatic's turn (so wraith couldn't destroy it) and lightning slash ended it.

It was a great match, closer than I expected, but Tempest and Haka got their reduction and damage, so there wasn't much hope for the F4.  Haka ended with 19hp, Tempest with 5.  If Legacy had lasted one more turn Tempest would have died and Legacy probably would have beaten Haka.  By probably I mean only the Environment deck could have killed him at that point.

Legacy was a beast to deal with, and he only raised damage twice.  The damage was heavily favoring Wardens, but Legacy tanking was really rough for them to deal with.  In the end it was Ball lightning that won the game, even if it was limited to only ongoing the result probably would have been the same, although if it was enough to get Tempest down before Legacy the fight would have reversed.  with eight heroes it was a long fight, nearly two hours.

Really?  It reminds me of every event comic for the past five years.  Really, the whole "superheroes fight each other" thing has become a pretty unbearable cliché for me - it was cool at first, but now it'd be surprising to see them all team up, instead.

And, no, taking things back into flavor concerns is the very opposite of threat derailing, all things considered.

To bust the Freedom Five, I really think there are three main obstacles to overcome: you need to mess up their teamwork and co-ordination (as augmented by Legacy's experience, Wraith's preparation, Tachyon's fast assessments, and especially Bunker's tactics), you need to keep Legacy busy (he's strong and tough enough to be almost impossible to take out of a fight decisively, and if you let him leverage that into protecting his allies, too, you lose), and you need to stop Tachyon before she does anything dangerous (a genius speedster is just too unpredictable).  My answers are:

• For the first task, I want Visionary.  Nothing like telepathy and illusions to keep a group off-balance.
• For the second, Nightmist - she can lock up Voss and Cthulhu in her mists, surely she can contain Legacy long enough to thin the ranks of his allies.  
• For the last, Tempest.  A tornado cannot be dodged, and his technology is beyond even Dr. Stinson's experience.  
• That's a lot of fragile bodies, so I would round out the team with Haka, to take hits and crack open powered armor.

To bust the (known) Prime Wardens, you have a different set of obstacles: Argent Adept needs to go down instantly (before his nigh-omnipotent powers can do... whatever he tries to do), you need to counter Tempest's ability to control the battlefield, and you need to be able to immobilize Haka and Fanatic, both of whom are super strong and would just come back from the dead if killed.  For these jobs, I'll pick:

• Expatriette to take down the Adept.  She's whiny and has no powers, but clearly she knows how to quickly kill an enemy with a foce field even if it makes no sense, and that's what I need.
• The only counter I can think of to Tempest is Legacy.  Flight, invulnerability, and danger sense combine to make a man who can keep an awful lot of inclement weather off his allies.
• More unstoppable people to lock down, and it would be lame to name Nightmist again, so I think I'll pick The Scholar.  He's virtually indestructible, too, probably more mobile than Haka, and certainly a skilled enough philosopher to reliably goad Fanatic into attacking him.  He can keep the Prime Wardens' toughest members focused on him for a solid after Kingdom Come, more than enough time for the remaining Wardens to be dealt with.
• I have pointed out before that the Prime Wardens are, with the exception of Haka, a team of mystics who know nothing about mysticism. So, to complete my buster force, I'll take Ra, adding more firepower (heh), and perhaps more crucially, more magical knowledge.  Between him and The Scholar, this team might be able to shut down most the Wardens without even fighting.

Ironic

After playing the PVP match I was thinking about the matchups between the two groups, and I think the big factor is flight.  Legacy can shut down Hka on a battlefield just by being more mobile and strong enough to deal with him, Haka has to be tanked or kited, and that falls to Tachyon and Legacy.  Argent Adept can get airborne, which makes him unhittable by Tachyon, but a target for the ranged heroes.  I don't think that bubble moves fast enough to be a hard target to hit.

Bunker is the big threat to AA as he is a weapons platform, but he isn't fast and can't fly, so Haka would destroy him pretty quick, again putting Legacy in a role of keeping Haka occupied.  Tempest needs to keep Tachyon from assisting Legacy with HAka, because as soon as Legacy is freed from Haka duty AA is going down fast.  I think Tempest can do that, Lightning is faster than Tachyon and you can't run through it, and if he can bring that hail storm enough to mess up her footing, he'll slow her down enough to keep her from making a big impact.  The problem there is Tempest is throwing down really hard, and I don't think he can keep that up very long.  Basically if Tempest can go all-out long enough he can occupy Wraith and Tachyon while Fanatic and Haka go after Bunker.

So currently we have Haka and Legacy paired up, Tempest throwing down to keep Wraith and Tachyone occupied, which leaves Fanatic to deal with Bunker before AA is taken out.  I wouldn't risk AA getting in Tachyon's range, as she'd be tough for him to handle.  If The Wardens can pull this off, freeing the adept to do his thing, I expect he's enough to help Tempest keep going full tilt and give Fanatic an advantage over Bunker, or help her mess with Legacy enough to let Haka get to Bunker.  I really don't think that armor suit is up for wrestling with Haka, and I bet Bunker would be out of commission very quickly.  (think Hulk vs. non-flying Iron man, it doesn't last long)  The hope for the F4 is wraith vs. Tempest, if Wraith can cause a "going all out" Tempest trouble, then Tachyon is going to set up some situation where Haka charges right into Tempest, Legacy is free to ground AA and Bunker is in a duel with Fanatic.

The key is Legacy's flight and Tachyon's speed disrupting Haka and frustrating him into making a mistake that ends with an ally on the wrong side of a Haka Rampage.

This projection is based on the idea that a supported Tempest is as amazing in real life as he is in game (Embolden + AA support boosting Tempest is just godly)  His only weakness is his HP, which isn't a big problem vs the F4, as they deal more multiple hits of low damage then big shots.  However if the fight goes a bit too long and Bunker gets the OC charged it's lights out for Tempest, or if Tach gets going so fast she goes lightspeed on him.  The crux for F4 is keeping Haka occupied so he doesn't crush one of their members out of the fight and making it an easy mismatch, the crux for Wardens is protecting AA.

It really is a close call, and it will be interesting once we get the fifth Warden to revisit this with AZ and the 5th Warden.

My anti-F4 team would be Omnitron-X (too much projectile and melee damage on F4) Expat (she can hang damage with Bunker and Wraith), Visionary and Haka.  With Vis-Haka you can change Haka's damage so Legacy can't tank him, and you can destroy Legacy's important ongoings or feed Haka for his big smashes.

The aim would be Haka being harder to stop, Expat dealing early damage, Omnitron being really tough, even more so with reactive, Visionary being tougher than AA to focus down, and all the support you need for your two damage dealers.  The weakness is if Expat goes down quick and Vis doesn't get to TtE.

Vs. The Wardens I'd go Legacy, Crono-ranger, Ra and Tachyon.  I think with this team you could afford to go right after Haka or Tempest right off the bat.  Not a lot of card destruction, but I think you can focus down the Warden's key players without having to destroy too much stuff.  Out of game I'd focus Tempest, then AA.  Ra and Ranger can really turn on the damage (esp with Legacy around) and if you can turn the game into a shootout Legacy can tank Haka and if Tempest can be dealt with it's over.

I'm not sure everyone understands the power Argent actually has outside his supporting abilities.

Lets take a look at Cedistic Dissonant, Argent has split the TCF Conquerer in half.

Polyorphic Flare, that is a beam that is not only strong enough to go through 2 bodies, but one of those bodies is wearing future armor. That's gotta be some durable stuff, right?

His Silver Shadows are capable of pulling off neat tricks too. The true power of these things and what all they can be used for are unknown, but considering game wise they can do use and accompany, one of which is Argent use another power. So out of game terms, even if he can only have 1 at a time, it could anywhere to having a a quarter to half another Argent around.

Argent is also able to heal 5 HP to himself every round, while still healing 4 other people by 1. Argent isn't as fragile as his HP lets on.

Counterpoint Bulwark depicts Argent standing infront of the Arachnoid, judging by the flavour text it is having a hard time getting through Argent's shield. Continue showing that he does have some defensive ability.

Scherzo of Frost and Flame depicts him actually incasing someone (I think GloomWeaver, but the bone structure looks slightly off) in ice. That could leave somebody out of commission for a bit if he lands it.

So this is what I have picked up about Argent. I don't count him to be a fagile, casting support spells on his allies to make them better, that may be more fitting for his Silver Shadow. While AA will be right in the action, making swiss cheese of Bunker's armor.

If Legacy and Fanatic are the only two that can fly (maybe I should say fly WELL, since it sounds like AA can fly too), why don't they end up fighting each other?  Tachyon could probably keep Haka distracted (just run in cirlces around him) long enough for Bunker and the Wraith to take care of AA and/or Tempest. 

I don't think Adept is fragile, I just don't think he's fast.  He performs to activate his abilities, so given time and space he's ridiculously powerful, I think he would struggle fighting Tachyon because she would hit him before he got his songs going.  Like how he plays in game, if you jump on him before he gets his stuff set up he dies quickly, once he is set up he is a force, before then he's vulnerable.

I would see Adept pulling out his bell only to have it slapped away by Tachyon flying by, now if someone stops her and he gets playing, then she's gonna have trouble dealing with him.  Or he starts to sing and gets jabbed in the throat by Wraith, this is the kind of stuff I would see stopping the Adept in real life.  He's great against a huge slow flagship, or a giant lumbering creation thing, but against someone fast he'd be in trouble.

I'm fairly certain he can hold his own against things other than slow objects. I don't think game speed 100% accurately portrays their real life battles. Tachyon probably always enters a battle with her HUD Goggles on. Legacy can switch on his Inspiring Presence at anytime. Fanatic is always wielding Absolution. So I think it would be safe to assume that Argent knows all his songs and will be having his instruments in easy reach. Seeing as Instrumental Conjuration depicts Instruments flying around him, it doesn't seem like it would be hard to switch between them.

Plus I don't think all his powers actually rely on him singing or using an instrument. Refering back to Polyorphic Flare, he isn't carrying an instrument and if he was singing, I don't see why Seige Breaker wouldn't do something to prevent the singing. He was able to create a energy beam while under pressure, so he has a list of stuff he can do without music. What is that list? I don't know, but there is the chance he can do anything without music, the music may amplify it to incredible power.

Instrumental Conjuration art isn't mid-fight, it's him calling on the other virtuoso's to lend him their instruments, I doubt he's doing that while fighting.  In Cedistic Dissonant he is destroying an ancient artifact of great power to do what he's doing, he's got limited ability to destroy flagships, and Polyphoric flare he is sacrificing health to use his powers in a situation artwise when he is being prevented from doing so normally.

The entire idea of a virtuoso of the void points to powers that manipulate reality in subtle ways, subtle ways that add up to a big advantage, if he's allowed to.  If he's putting up his bulwark to keep himself safe, he isn't helping everyone else too.  At least two of his cards have him playing instruments, and almost every card he is in a passive role.  I don't think he's a dangerous one on one fighter, he seems to stick with others and let them do the work while he boosts them, if he can take fighters one on one while doing all this other stuff then why isn't he?  Legacy leade from the front, most of his deck is him hitting or getting hit physically, Argent Adept has one card with physical combat involving him, and it's a guy on his back.  If Adept wants to burn health every turn to still use his music based powers while Legacy pounds on him I'm sure he can, but I doubt it is going to end well.

@phantaskippy: about your run-throught the fight. If Tempest fell and it was Haka vs Legacy, it would have been a draw since Incapacitated Tempest would have prevented all melee damage to Haka. Then the only way it could move forward was Haka getting Savage Mana, feeding on the environment and hitting Legacy with either Melee or Toxic, whatever he couldn't block. So the win would still probably go to the Wardens.

You are correct, hadn't even thought to check Tempest's incap abilities.  Savage Mana is an ongoing and Wraith wouldn't have let that survive.  So that would be a draw.

Definitely need to have Visionary, Nightmist, Fixer, or Ra on the team to fight the F4.  Incap ongoing destruction would be big vs. Legacy.  Strange that Ra and Fixer both destroy ongoing once they are incapacitated when they can't do so in the fight.

Depending on turn order and Environment deck, it technically might be possible for Haka to play Savage Mana, take out an Environment target, and then be granted an extra power use (say, by The Argent Adept) to nuke it for one damage before Legacy's next turn.  Do any of the Incapacitated Freedom Three have healing?

(Though, personally, I would still count this as a draw, as the two invulnerable powerhouses entering stalemate just feels right to me, it's important to consider the most absurd endings to the match.)

Haka could play Haka of Battle, discarding enough to do the killing blow to Legacy, than on his next turn he would play Savage Mana and use that power doing damage equal to what he has discarded. So he doesn't even need to kill any targets to use it, just have to get his damage increased a bit.

I had not considered that… awesome.

One on One full power Haka vs full power Legacy, outside of the card game, Haka has no chance. Iron Legacy is still Legacy. Its not like Iron Legacy got an additional shot of super power juice. Legacy, outside of his little kryponian like weakness, is pretty much unstoppable. If Legacy can single handedly take on the Freedom 6 (and everyone else for that matter), the Freedom 5 is certainly more than capable of easily dispatching the Prime Wardens if it really came down to a serious no-hold-back kinda fight. Thats not even close.

If we are talking inside the card mechanics thats a different story though.

oh, yeah, I find it kind of weird you can do that. Same as Ra with Scorched Earth and Drawn to the Flame. There you have a situation where Solar Flare is good as it is.

Still, Next Evolution is not Limited, right? So Legacy just needs an extra one to make it a stalemate (not sure about other Incap abilities though, recalled Tempest's one since it's quite unique).

I'm really going to have to disagree with this. I think his anger has increased his power quite significantly. Look at Final Evolution, the stuff on his glove is the formula that Baron Blade had created as a weakness for the Parson family. The fact that he is able to stand while covered in the stuff shows that Iron Legacy is far tougher than Legacy ever thought of being.

Ill give you that. But the point is, that legacy can reach that point. That potential is there. If we are talking about a no holds bar fight with everyone at their peak going for broke against each other, there is no question that Legacy could take on the prime wardens by his lonesome, let alone having support behind him. 

I don't think he can freely reach that point unless someone has made him go into a blind anger. So unless someone has killed Young Legacy right before that fight, I don't see Legacy being that strong. After all Legacy is not Superman, he probably doesn't lives in a world made of cardboard. Only have his daughter's death in a certain timeline does it come to that. I think Haka has more strength and endurance than Legacy, while Legacy has more dexterity and agility.

[quote="Ronway"]

I'm really going to have to disagree with this. I think his anger has increased his power quite significantly. Look at Final Evolution, the stuff on his glove is the formula that Baron Blade had created as a weakness for the Parson family. The fact that he is able to stand while covered in the stuff shows that Iron Legacy is far tougher than Legacy ever thought of being.

[/quote] I am reasonably certain that stuff is on Pauline's glove, and she is not "standing" so much as "being knifed to death".

Anyway, you can look at Iron Legacy however you want to, but for my money, ä version of this character who was a villain took them all on at once" just isn't an acceptable precedent.  Yes, of course when a hero turned evil they fought all the other heroes at once.  That's what heroes who turn evil do.  Of, say, Batman, Superman, and Martian Manhunter, each of those three has effortlessly dispatched both of the other two, due to the powers of Suddenly Being The Antagonist.

But, of course, sloppily falling back on narrative conventions instead of in-story logic is something to be avoided.  So how does one look at Iron Legacy?  There's the "World of Cardboard" approach, in which Legacy is always capable of that power, but holding WAY back (in which case, it surely wouldn't help in a fight with the Prime Wardens - if he's holding back like this against Voss, he'll still do it against heroes in a case of mistaken identities/mind control/jurisdiction dispute/alien aggresion spores/whatever).  I have put forward the idea of "super-adrenaline" that regular Legacy rarely has (Surge of Strength), but Iron Legacy has been riding for decades - this also would not factor into the fight described.  In my own games, I've also toyed with the idea that Iron Legacy really did get extra shots of "super juice" - notably, the drugs used by Spite, surviving due to his superhuman physiology, to make himself strong enough to police the world alone (and furthering his slide into darkness) - if you go that way, it's clear that modern Legacy is not in the same boat.

Still, you don't really need all that.  You certainly could just say that Modern Legacy is exactly as strong as Iron Legacy in every way, and his game balance (in which he tends not to even be a primary damage-dealer) is strictly a form of gameplay and story segregation.  And that's a fine explanation, too, supported by canon - but, to me, it's about the most boring explanation possible.  Radical gulfs in superhero power making it hard to see why some major heroes are relevant (how is Wolverine helping Thor, again?) are something I really dislike in superhero continuities, so getting to picture one where that issue is largely reduced (if not completely - how is Expatriette helping Ra, again?) is something I really like about SotM flavor.  So I, at least, will take any number of other explanations before that.

Ironic

It's Paul Parson's glove. Final Evolution is depicted through the eyes of Legacy who has just witnessed the death of his daughter on the hands of Baron Blade. Blade is currently holding Pauline on the ground with his left hand, while looking into Paul's eyes. Paul has his right hand raised, and has just crushed one of Baron Blade's viles that contains the formula to weaken the Parson's bloodline. This is seconds before that same fist has pulverized Baron Blade.

For the sake of "who would win in a fight" senarios, the only fair way to predict an outcome is to pit each contestant at their peak maximum power level. Whether someone would hold back or not against "friends" is and should be totally irrelevant, as you could make the same case about any of the heros taking part in this senario.

With that said, we have to consider Legacy at his peak performance level. Iron Legacy is the manifestation of his true raw power potential. This is how we must consider him. 

Now if we take a look at the narrative cannon, I think we can infer that Haka and Iron Legacy will eventually come to a stalemate, mostly due to Hakas endurance and healing factor which make it hard for Legacy to deal lasting damage. But I think that holds true in the reverse. We see through the card art and flavor text that Haka threw the hardest punch he could at Iron Legacy and he didn't flinch. Since Haka is alive during the final wasteland timeline, we know he survived Iron Legacys rule, and I am sure it wasn't because IL just let him go. 

Thats what the F4 vs Wardens will eventually come down to in the end, no matter how you want to slice it. Haka vs Legacy fighting to an ultimate standstill.

If you're taking each hero from where they are most "physically" powerful, than you would be using Iron Legacy. At which point the fight would be Iron Legacy versus the other members of the Freedom Four and Prime Wardens.

Do we know that The Final Wasteland is in the "Iron Legacy" timeline?  I'm not disagreeing with you or anything, I've just not heard any confirmation of what timeline FW is part of.

From my understanding, the Final Wasteland is the ultimate conclusion for all timelines. Its why CON has Chrono go back in time and alter the past in (hopfully) significant and calculated ways in order to prevent at least one of the timelines from meeting this fate.

Edit: I do not think I was right. From the FW bio: "In one of the timelines in the multiverse…" seems to imply it is but one possible future, not the absolute future of all timelines. Although, I think any timeline has the potential to turn down this path. Really, any timeline that does not see Plauge Rat totally eradicated will eventually lead to the "Rat Men" revolution that is alluded to have occured.

It sounds like we are discussing the Hulk.  If we get Legacy really angry, he'll grow even more powerful. . . or is that Star Wars?

Iron Legacy doesn't hold back, that's his strength, he'll fight dirty, he'll cheat, he'll use innocents as tools to force the Heroes hand.  Legacy won't.  Legacy won't kill while he still thinks he can win without doing so, he won't cheat, he won't use weapons or armor.  Legacy is setting an example for the world, Iron Legacy is just out to win.

Legacy would defeat Haka 1v1, because he can be immune to melee damage, Haka would have to use savage mana with either a giant hand of cards to Haka of Battle, or a whole lot of environment cards under Savage mana, is he going to last long enough to pull that off.  Out of game, how bad can Legacy hurt Haka?  I don't think Haka can die, so Legacy would eventually lose just by growing old and dying.  Haka can't beat LEgacy, because Legacy can take Haka's beatings.  I imagine the actual fight involve them wrestling, and then Legacy just flying him to the North Pole to cool his heels for a while, let him wait for a ship to get back, or swim.

In neither of Haka's Incapacitated sides is he dead, or even badly wounded, Legacy is in really bad shape on his.  So I'm calling it a draw, with LEgacy's flight and Haka's immortality balancing each other.

In the game I played it would be a very long time before the game ended.  Haka had one card in hand, and Legacy can heal every turn  Bunker can stack damage prevention and Fanatic can match with adding damage, no one can make Haka draw a card, fanatic can heal Haka but when she does Haka loses ground on Bunker prevention.  The environment deck would be key, because Legacy gets immunity and Haka doesn't.  No way the F4 is going to destroy Punish the weak (was big in killing Bunker), Mere, or Taiaha with Haka of Battle and Savage Mana out that means Fanatic's buffs can't fall more than one turn off of Bunkers or Legacy survives and can start healing up (at least 4 hp per turn).  Only the time crazed prisoner deals melee, so if Argent can keep Haka from dying to the environment without Fanatic having to help so that damage boosted was equal to damage prevented they could win once Haka could discard 35 cards with HoB.

Immune to melee damage is a mechanic of the card game. Are we talking about who would win within the structure of the card game or within the narrative the game explores? Lets not mix the two

Both.  I assume most Heroes can do what they can in game, with differences due to the nature of the game being a game.  Legacy is harmable, but he is also immune to harm.  Next Evolution sets that up pretty well, unless there is an explanation the Creators have given that I am unaware of.

This thread has been covering both in-game and out, and the results honestly should be similar.  The world was created with the game in mind, if they are creating a game world that the game can't represent then what are they doing?

I like the idea that Legacy can handle any damage you throw at him, as long as he can prepare for it, other than that he is just really tough, but when he sees that missile coming and grabs a hold of it, he can take that blast like it was nothing.

Ok well legacy wins because he can be immune to any damage type. Discussion over I guess now.

The Next Evolution is one of those cards (like Research Grant and End of Days and Jim's Hat so on) which has a name and theme which certainly reflect the character, but mechanics very loosely tied to those things at best.  The name, art, and flavor of Next Evolution all deal with how each new member of the Legacy bloodline has a new power - in this case, Pauline Felicia Parsons' development of the Atomic Glare.  In game terms, it allows the current Legacy to develop one specific power (immunity to a type of damage), in the middle of a fight, repeatedly, and with a limited duration.  That's a pretty large disconnect, and I don't think you should confuse its gameplay meaning with its story meaning, or vise versa.

Ironic

Thats kind of the problem with a hero vs hero hypothetical scenario.  If you go by their card interactions, its hard to judge.  Every hero has interactions that are ridiculous if they could be played over and over again without penalty.  So when going by card interactions, do we assume that they have access to everything all the time, or is it randomized?  I mean, if Legacy had all his ongoings out from teh start, and access to every takedown/interception in the game, and could be immune to two things EVERY round while redirecting damage...(and would any of their cards WORK given that they are all heroes and most cards specify non-hero targets?)?  I mean, if you go by the cards, Legacy being immune to Melee mostly shuts down Haka- no mattter how many haka of battles he has.  And just to be sure, lets make him immune to Toxic too.

So lets look at it narratively.  even then there are difficulties, as you have to pretty muc force a confrontation- temporary insanity, weird magic, cross-dimensional travels, Evil twins, etc.  Basically, everyone is too moral to use their full strength.  No killing means pulling your punches and no flying your enemies into low earth orbit.  

you know what?  the Wraith would win.  She'd figure out what was making everyone fight and fix it.

you know what?  the Wraith would win.  She'd figure out what was making everyone fight and fix it.

I was epecting a reference to grappling hook there.  Although it probably is the solution to whatever the problem is.

Not to bring up a point already discussed, but my internet time has been limited and I saw something missed when you guys were discussing AA's power. He does have a song which, given time to play, is absolutely devastating and shows him on the offensive. I can't remeber the name, but it the song that allows him to destroy ongoing or environment cards, which under one of the PvP rules is ongoing, equipment, and environment cards, and shows him blasting a large chunk off of Akash'bhuta's face.

He's more comfortable helping his team, but he can throw down.

Also, the demon thing on Scherzo of Frost and Flame is not Gloomweaver, I believe it is a projection from the Dreamer, but I can't remember exactly. If it isn't I suspect we'll be seeing it in a deck here soon.

Sarabande of Destruction

Of course, like most "destroy an Environment or Ongoing card" effects, it's really difficult to have any idea what it represents.  Magic which is equally useful against tumbleweeds and tyrannosaurs is a little hard to picture, even before it starts disarming self-destruct sequences.

Still, it seems like a safe bet to say that the Adept's powers, like those of Doctors Strange and Fate (and also Zatanna, Doctor Voodoo, Scarlet Witch, John Constantine, Circe, Amora, Loki, Doom, Wotan, and roughly every other comic book "magic" character ever) boil down to "omnipotence, limited only by whether I can speak and move, vague references to avilable mystical energy or whatnot, getting interrupted, and arbitray limits which are established early in each story and usually stay consistent until the end of the arc".  Which, in gameplay terms, is represented with a bunch of support-based ongoings - that probably even is the role that he plays in team-ups and on the Prime Wardens, but I suspect he does a lot more direct fighting in, you know, his solo series.

Ironic

I believe the original spell was titled:

"Summon Magic Grappling Hook"

Or to tie it to his music theme: "Silly-but-catchy pop hook". 

Nothing and no one can resist it. 

This is a tough one, but I think I'll throw in my two cents.

Legacy and Haka are both nearly unstoppable, and aside from the special 'don't-call-it-kryptonite' goo that Baron Blade uses on Legacy, it's not clear either of them can actually be killed. Hell, Haka technically was killed in his bio, and he got better.

Argent Adept and Wraith are both more dangerous the more time you give them to prepare, and given long enough, they can both accomplish almost anything.

Tempest and Tachyon are both very flexible and adaptable, able to quickly and effectively respond to anything the others aren't ready for.

Bunker and Fanatic are both tough and powerful, able to give as good as they get, shrugging off hits and dealing them back out.

Honestly, these teams are actually fairly well balanced. In addition, both teams have a strong, charismatic leader to tie them together (Legacy for the F4 and Argent Adept for the PW). I think this fight could honestly go either way. All eight heros are incredibly good at what they do, it's hard to imagine either side losing.