The Moral center of the Sentinels Universe

So, I was thinking about how, for DC comics, Superman is the moral center of that universe.  Or maybe Pa Kent, by way of Superman.

In Marvel, there's multiple moral centers, but they seem to be Captain America for the avengers, and Spiderman for most of the others (or perhaps Uncle Ben, by way of Spiderman).  Professor X serves as moral center for the mutants, except for when he's evil.

At first I assumed the Legacy was the moral center, but the more I read from the forums, the more I wonder if it's actually Haka.

So here's the question I have for the forum: who do you think is the moral paragon of the Sentinels universe?  Who's the one who helps the other heroes understand what's right and wrong when everything looks like shades of gray?

Has to be Legacy, IMO.  Haka may be moral, but he still has more cards about smashing than helping others understand morality.  Legacy is all about inspiration and acting as an empowered group for the greater good.

Before he went all evil, that is...

I think it's more like your Marvel scenario where different groups have moral centers. Legacy is definitely the moral center of the FV, especially since Haka probably isn't in too many issues of those comics. I could believe Haka being the moral center of the Prime Wardens since that's the team he's on.

It probably is Legacy.  That would also underscore why it is such a big deal, on a personality level, when he turns into a villain in a timeline.

No one sees Fanatic as fulfilling that role, huh?

I don't think anyone would've pegged Haka as a moral center before Christopher revealed more information about his personality. A moral center has to be able to relate to the people around him or her. It's unknown right now how well Fanatic relates to her team members. Right now, I see her more as a second in command of the Prime Wardens.

What about The Scholar?

or Argent Adept?

Or Tachy.

My thoughts on the Fanatic is that she's too Zealous in her morals, which would make her as morally gray as Expatriette.  She doesn't serve as a good moral center.

The Argent Adept is too green, I think, to really offer guidance.  He's one of the youngest hero decks we've seen.

The Scholar, on the other hand, is a really strong candidate.  Considering that a large number of his cards involve imparting wisdom. 

BTW, the roles people play in the Prime Wardens is sort of a tangent, but I picture Fanatic as the lose cannon of the team.  I see Tempest as the leader with Haka as second in command (with a bit of mentor or "team dad" going on).  Argent Adept and Glowing Fist Man round out the team.

I'm not sure I'd classify the Scholar as a moral center because he's not always around. He's wise and shows up when he's needed and then leaves when the job is done to chill on his houseboat. As for the Wardens, I don't see Tempest as a leader. He strikes me as more of the frontline soldier. I consider the Argent the leader simply because the team was put together to beat Akash, probably by him. I can agree on Fanatic being a loose cannon, but it is a common trope for a leader and his subordinate to be opposites of a sort. So where as the Argent is calm and collected and maybe even a little hesitant, Fanatic is bold and confident and freely speaks her mind, and that kind of a personality can easily make a decent second in command. I like the idea of Haka as a team dad.

Ah, yes.  The eternal questions raised by Haka secret actual personality which is barely hinted at in his cards.

But I think this one's still pretty clear.  Paul heads up the premier super-team.  Not only is he well-known to the public, but his family have been paragons of Amircaness since forever.  And he's the one who, should he falter, the entire world's balance of power falls apart.

Haka is just a centuries-old nice guy.  He might function as a mentor to Paul himself, but Paul is the lynchpin that holds things together.

The Scholar keeps to himself.  Fanatic cuts such an imposing figure, the other heroes call her "Fanatic" against her wishes.  Tachyon is awfully glib and big on the "for science" attitude, though she might grow into a more unifying (heh) figure in the future.  The Adept* does not have a single quote or piece of card art I can think of showing a "morality" outside of "fight bad guys, talk about cosmic stuff" - I don't think he's a bad person, but I don't think he's really thought about the "big picture" enough to much of a moral paragon.

Bunker and Tempest, however, both seem like guys I'd like to talk over tough issues with (Bunker as a small guy who excelled in the army, then stepped up to fight supervillains despite lacking powers, and Tempest as someone who keeps working to save two races, neither of which have treated him well).  They're not showy in the way that Legacy is, and they don't have the saintlike qualities Christopher talks about Haka - they would not fill such a grandiose title as "moral center," but for that very reason, they're the ones who I think would have the perspective to help with nuanced choices, while the bigger men are good for inspiring you to keep on going at all when all choices seem bleak.

Ironic

* As an aside, AA is older than Unity, Visionary, the Wraith, Expatriette, Nightmist, and maybe Fanatic - nearly a third of the other Hero decks.  He is - barely - the youngest male hero, but since SotM doesn't like a lot of overlap between male and female age ranges, that still only puts him in the middle of the pack overall.

I think I agree with all of this logic.  I'd add Mister Fixer to the list of moral counselors with Bunker and Tempest.  I'd maybe also add Horus of Two Horizons Ra (he seems to lack the overconfident glory hound angle that default Ra has). 

Oh, wow.  I hadn't noticed that the female heroes were actually younger on average - I thought they were just drawn with more youthful features because comic books usually give the women very youthful features.  Since AA was the youngest looking of the guys, I assumed he'd be younger than most of the women too.

Can anyone point me to where Christopher did this? Or at least give me a brief summary of what was said?

It was probably in the thread where it came out that he teaches nursery-aged children on the side, and bakes each of them a little, home-made pie to hand out when he meets a class for the first time. Plus there was mention of how many people's funerals he's been to, since obviously his age means he has a tendency to outlive...well, everyone. I think there was some other stuff too, but can't remember it off the top of my head. He's very intelligent/wise, and isn't the "Hulk SMASH!" character he tends to come across as in most of his card art. He also reads a lot (hence the library, in which his Eternal version is reading a book by T.S. Eliot).

https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/hero-personalities

And then Reckless's very good insight on what this means is here:

https://sentinelsofthemultiverse.com/forum/topic/mr-haka-the-experience-of-being-an-ageless-teacher-3793

Thank you!  I'm happy to hear that someone appreciated my perspective on Haka!

Thank you!  Hit me like a ton of bricks - but in a good way.

I'd go with Tachyon.  Legacy is the leader and definitely the moral front of the group, but the Moral center is the person who reminds him, and keeps him on the right course.

That's why I'd go Tachyon.  As a good scientist she has to have a pretty hard line moral fiber, and is in the best position to reign Legacy in when his patriotism and empathy starts to take him down the wrong path.  That his daughter's death sent him down such a nasty path shows he needs that.

Tachyon is kind of the Mr. Spock to Legacy's Captain Kirk.  I definitely could see Haka, but not the original Haka, the Eternal Haka comes from after everyone is gone and he's gained incredible amounts of wisdom.  Others might have a good moral center, and have the ability to fulfil the role, but Tach has the posistion, and the longevity to have that type of relationship with the team.

As a good scientist she has to have a pretty hard line moral fiber

That's an unsupported claim at best, sir.  Baron Blade's probably a pretty good scientist, no? ;)

Also, wasn't Dr. McCoy more of a moralist than Spock ever was?

I am no Treckie, but I was under the impression that morality has no real meaning to Spock as Vulcans are driven by pure hard and cold logic. Maybe the conculsions Spock reaches are in line with our understanding of "good" morality, but he never approaches things through a moral lense.

Hank McCoy, being the mutant activist that he is, views things through a much thicker moralist lense.

I'm just going to leave this link here *whistling smiley*

http://25.media.tumblr.com/0197f5efbd41917e2edc5bd34c55e701/tumblr_mmewhpU9VO1qha9mlo1_400.jpg

Hank McCoy, being the mutant activist that he is, views things through a much thicker moralist lense.

Ha, I was referring to a different Dr. McCoy.  He's a doctor, Jim, not a mutant!

Potato Potato

The importance is the contrast between Legacy and Tachyon.  Legacy is a hyper moral person, but when threatened, his morality can become dangerous.  His descent into Iron Legacy may have a starting point when his daughter dies, but he doesn't flip immediately, he sees no hope in the future after he's gone, and does his best to fix the world himself.  That leads him down a very dark path, making compromises within his morality.  He remains a Moral figure, but his morality is twisted.

A character like Tachyon is the perfect balance, as her morality is not governed by compassion and empathy as much as by a set off laws/tests that help her determine the proper action.

They, like Kirk and Spock, are a great matched set, when Legacy's empathy starts to take that wrong turn she can point it out and get him centered.

Worth noting that the original post suggested Superman as DC's centre, and I can list quite a few alternate universes where he has gone the way of Iron Legacy. For example, I've actually explained the Iron Legacy storyline to new players by comparing it to Injustice: Gods Among Us

Or Irredeemable.

Irredeemable (and Squadron Supreme, and Invincible, and The Sentry, and countless others) is not really Superman.  Alternate universe expies are a whole different thing.

That said, there are loads of evil alternate Supermen, too - Ultraman, Ubermensch, Red Son Superman, The Dark Knight Resturns Superman, and even Kingdom Come Superman was headed that way.  Also, New 52 Superman might count, but that's probably too big an argument here.

So, absolutely, Iron Legacy validates comparisons to Superman (something Legacy clearly and intentionally invites), rather than refuting them.

As for Tachyon... I am all in favor of each playgroup having their own interpretations for the characters (I mean, do I ever shut up about my takes on AZ and Fanatic, and so forth?), but in a thread like this, dedicated to discussing characters' standings in "canon" SotM, I think you really need some basis for more unusual claims.  For example, where in anything we have seen has Tachyon shown any morality more complex than "tries to cure cancer, is a superhero for money"?  Extrapolating from that to "her morality is not governed by compassion and empathy as much as by a set off laws/tests that help her determine the proper action," seems like a big stretch to me.

Ironic

Hard to say, I guess I'd need a clearer definition of what the "moral center" actually means, but in my opinion, it certainly isn't Legacy. The existance of Iron Legacy shows me that Legacy is far too unbalanced and morally fragile to be considered the moral center of SotM. If the death of his daughter is all it takes to make him go full super-villain, than that just goes to show that perhaps his dauntless morality is not nearly as durable as it first seems. Honestly, I'd either go with Omnitron-X as the most moral person in the story I've seen. OX is willing to sacrifice himself to save the lives of humans, and has made it his goal to minimize the suffering of all people everywhere, going so far as to attempt to destroy his past self to undo the damage he had done before. He is, in my opinion, the most self-less character in SotM.

Also interesting morally is Mr. Fixer, who shut down his martial arts dojo in an attempt to protect his students, only to finally begin fighting back later in life. Just as Legacy's decent into evil proves how fragile and weak our morality can be, Mr. Fixer proves that morality is not black and white, and that sometimes there is no good option. Sometimes, fighting just makes things worse, and sometimes, when the world keeps pushing you, you have to push back. Mr. Fixer to me shows the reality of the world. Legacy is clean and wholesome, but clearly not as perfect as he seems at first glance, while Mr. Fixer seems more real to me. 

The problem with this question is that morality is relative. Sometimes we need someone who will uphold our ideals, who will stand as a beacon of hope, like Legacy. Sometimes we need someone who will never compromise, who refuses to bow to adversity, like Wraith or Fanatic. Sometimes we need a realist, one who does the best they can with what they have, like Fixer. Sometimes we need someone willing to sacrifice everything to put things right, like Omnitron X. Sometimes we need someone calm and careful, patient enough to find the right solution, like The Scholar. And sadly, sometimes we need someone who'll get things done no matter the cost, who'll get rid of the bad guys even if it means putting them down for good, like Expatriette.

My point is, right and wrong depends on context, and therefore it's hard to say who is the 'moral center'.