Vengeance Heroes - The suspense is killing me!

The Suspense is killing me!! Paul/Chris can you pleeeasse give us a little tad bit of info? I'm not asking for much, just scraps. pleeease

I think the soonest we'll hear anything is when/if they do a Kickstarter for Vengeance. If they need one that is.

But any clue right now would be sweet. All we have is speculations for now, like in Foote's Mainstay thread and my own speculation generator thread... :/

They won't be doing a kikstarter for Vengeance. They've said that a few times now. The playtesters don't know their backstory yet, either, just the mechanics. Which, I assure you, will be awesome when we're done with them.

Stupid ninjas.

There won’t be a Vengeance KS or a KS for any other SotM product.

I'll tell you this:  There ARE Heroes in Vengeance.  That's right!  Not just one hero!  There are multiple heroes in Vengeance!

Information!

Scraps you say? Well, I for one, was extremely surprised to see [Redacted] as a significant figure. >G hides their clues and masks their forshadowing quite well. And so do I.

Hmm.. you all sound like henchmen for Amanda Twain (aka Miss Information) trying to befuddle us and throw us off our game so that we slip up !  well we've left enough clues and now we're on to you! :-P

but, yeah, i really want information/teasers too!  but i am trying to be patient with the hopes that around august we'll start seeing teasers when things are more finalized and starting production, etc....

 I'm going to take this as a clue that at least  one of the hero decks contain more than 1 hero.

This intrigues me far more than it probably should…

I was mainly going for sass, but I am all for rampant speculation.

(emphasis added in quote by me)

That confirms it, one of the heroes is a copycat/mimic!  a la mystique. she has ongoing cards that (edit: erasing what i wrote here as a joke because i remembered that there is a 'no concept suggestion' policy and didn't want something to get construed incorrectly since it is a game mechanic that might actually work as opposed to my next joke that is just way too tongue-in-cheek…).  Furthermore, the secret environment is called "PAX" where it's a convention and the envrionment targets are all bystander mobs of people waiting in line to play "this awesome coop superhero card game"

PAX POX!!!!

Met with PWatson in London again today and played some Sentinels...and as he's a playtester he's got all the Vengeance stuff...so I got to play with the new heroes. Had a good time playing [REDACTED] against Gloomweaver. I was actually responsible for destroying all three of his Relics, two of which were dealt with using [REDACTED] which was certainly satisfying. It was also cool to see who [REDACTED] is...oh yeah, and [REDACTED]. Some of the new heroes' mechanics are very cool. [REDACTED] apparently needs some more tweaking and stuff but hopefully will be cool when finished (though I'm not entirely sure what I think of the [REDACTED] mechanic that character uses). And the [REDACTED] are still in the process of being sorted out, but that's what playtesting is for, right? :D

There also wasn't much artwork on most of the cards just yet, so it'll be cool to see that once it's done. Gives the cards much more personality rather than them just being black-and-white bits of paper with text on :). I liked the look of [REDACTED] at first sight, though :).

Wow, and somehow there actually was too much info in that post.  Haha!!! 

It really is a cool expansion.  I think I have new fav heroes.

Oh, and [Redacted]. (I've waited far too long to use one of those.)

Was that at London on Board, or elsewhere? Now that my other commitments have disappeared, I should probably attempt to go to one of those...

It was. Ameena, her partner, Matchstickman, a non-forumite and I arrange for a SotM day once a month or so. If you make it to a weekday meet up, I'll probably be there with Sentinels.

I was also there, it was at London on Board. I don't know if Paul brings down all his Sentinels stuff each week, might be best to ask him before you go trundling on down there on the off chance.

Also, I played as [REDACTED]. I've always wanted to say that, and now I can!

EDIT: Damn you Paul! You snuck in like the ninja you are!

So, I'm guessing that the most likely candidates for new heroes are:

• The fifth Prime Warden
• Kismet's nemesis (which I suspect will have a gambling mechanic, or be more random than other decks)
• The Lobo-looking guy in the domino mask getting gut punched by Iron Legacy
• Mainstay (whoever that is)
• La Capitan's nemesis (for whom there is a compelling theory that he is named Mainstay, and has the art of the guy getting punched by IL)
• Miss Information's nemesis (captain bracket?)
• The giant alien woman from one of the Dreamer's cards

Any more news on the new heroes? I'm scouring the forums for info. gaaaah!!

Nope - sorry.

I'm hoping >G does some intros on their site and/or here on the forums, kinda like they did for the original set, but they're still recovering from PAX Australia so we'll give them some time to breath.

Whoever just posted the list Your missing Twitchy ... which i believe is Kismet's nemisis, he is featured on shock rounds 

yeah I'll leave that one to stew in your brains

Oh, I thought Twitchy was Mainstay. Looking at the meaning of the word he's probably not ( Nautical A strong rope that serves to steady and support the mainmast of a sailing vessel.) You can speculate a bit about Twitchy given other cards. For example, shock rounds hit all non-hero targets (or villain? forgot) maybe he has an ability that makes him to not be considered a hero target. Could be handy. Also Kismet has the jinx that he attachs to the hero with X characteristic. Haka is shown in the one with highest HP (glass jaw?), Tachyon in the one with least cards in play, Twitchy in the one with less HP and hurts him when he uses a power. Maybe he has access to several powers but it's related / costs health for him to do that.

Anyway, he does not appear in the cover image so I think he won't appear. We know the Vengeance V (all nemesis of Freedom V), we seen the orb guy appearing in Nightmist's deck (lash out), the big grey guy appearing in Visionary's deck (decoy) and... dunno what more.

About Nightmist... she is approached by a chinese 'Master' in her bio. Maybe the chinese-dragon dude Fixer keeps pounding in his deck? And the orb guy is related to him?

Just to point out, just because a character doesn't appear on the front of a box, doesn't mean they aren't in the game. Infernal Relics doesn't have the Ennead or Apostate. Shattered Timelines doesn't feature Chrono-Ranger, Kismet, or La Capitan.

Edit: Also I believe it has been stated that the artwork posted on the Kickstarter isn't the final cover.

well, I'm thinking the opposite though: if it's featured on the front of the box it will appear. And there's a lot of people in the front already... should count them though to know if they would be all.

Counting them may not be as insightful as you hope.

bah, why do i bother to post speculation with playtesters around. makes me as sad as the Summoner wars forum.

OK, I'm done with this, will wait for previes or whatever.

I understand that it can be frustrating. We tease, but we don't always lead in the wrong direction. Your idea isn't a bad one, it just may not lead where you expect.

thing is, I don't care. It sucks out all the fun of speculation. Better just keep it to myself. And the previews.

Here's something I had figured out long before playtesting even started. When Vengeance was announced and the promotional art was shown, I looked at every person on there and picked out which have previously appeared. Most, if not all, have been depicted battling it out with another hero. Infact Vyktor has already made an appearance in Voss' deck. This had lead me to believe that the picture has only depicted villains, as the characters are so spread out that it would be odd to have heroes mixed in there somewhere.

But…but I enjoy reading others speculation since I can not participate in them as activly as I would like to 

Anyone wanna send me the playtester files so I won't have to speculate?

In that case, here is my advice to you: when you see speculation, read and enjoy it, but don't say anything.  Encourage other playtesters to do the same.  Ask yourself: how often in your life have you thought: "I will publicly put myself in a position to have a group of strangers act smug about insider knowlege I cannot share, for no benefit."  For most people, the answer to that question is a rather low number - that is how it usually feels to be happily speculating about upcoming developments in a community where about half the members know everything already.

Alternately, resign as a playtester, speculate as you please, and enjoy any and all jokes about [redacted] that crop up.  If you enjoy playing that game from that side, more power to you!  But since you may be the only person I know in that position, being on the other side may be a waste of your talents.

Ironic

I agree with your sentiment. I do not think you directed that first part at me, but if you did thats unfortunate as I have tried to do exactly what you suggested. PTs need to be very careful not to discourage the speculation and the community in general.

I do really enjoy speculating on the narrative and all that stuff on this forum. Not enough to resign PTing, but there are downsides to doing it. I guess I was just lamenting that fact.

I was not attempting to "direct" my sentiments towards anyone in the form of an attack or accusation - I largely ignore speculation threads in general and Playtester posts in particular due to the issues I mentioned, so I legitimately do not know who has more or less of the issues I objected to.

By chance, I did happen to read your post, and responded so that playtesters in general (and you in particular) would know my point of view on the matter.  I'm glad to know you agree.

I find the diversity of views on this subject intriguingly confusing. There are some non-playtesters who enjoy the hints and create speculation based on that, while others are turned off by it. There are playtesters who (like myself) try very hard to just not say anything (unless it's making observations that everyone else can make), while others enjoy redacting information as inside joke, hints, or just entertaining themselves.

I think this is something that we as a playtesting community needs to think about. We've been very loose about how things are handled, which has resulted in very few slips to date, but the last thing we want to do is create a negative perception on the forums. I think we all want the forums to be entertaining, interesting, and fun. But we are also going to have to be careful about respecting different opinions…

Yes, I've completely talked myself through a couple circles at this point.  Mostly I'm just putting this out there for consideration. I need to think about it some more, myself.

I'm not much of a speculator since I lack imagination, experience of comic books and their tropes, and the encyclopedic knowledge of everything Sentinels that provokes some people to wonder if the guy on card X is Y's nemesis or whatever.

I do read the speculation threads (I read EVERYTHING except the play-by-forum stuff) and enjoy them, but I'm not a big fan of the teasing hints. I don't imagine anyone's being smug about it or anything, and I know lots of people enjoy all that stuff. Me, I'm a very direct and straightforward person and would rather just know everything or know nothing, and I'd prefer if the playtesters didn't tease - that's Christopher's job, right? ;)

Not suggesting that anything needs to be changed or anything, just offering my opinion.

Oh yeah, another thought. It'd be easy for the forum to end up in a situation of us-and-them with playtesters and muggles if one group starts to irritate and/or ostracise the other, so that's probably something to think about.

For what it's worth, here's my 2 cents:

I would love to be a playtester.  My group loves playtesting new mechanics and new games--I'm a game designer with my own company, so they get to test out new stuff pretty often.  Right now, though, I could not justify spending money to become a playtester.  Money's a bit tight around our house, so dropping $40 wasn't an option on our end.

I love the conjecture and roundabout discussions.  I like the little hints that get dropped here and there, but they're often so obscure that it takes tons of work and cross-thread investigation to piece together the truth.

It's obvious that the Greater Than Guys are up to their eyeballs already, between prepping Vengeance, GSF, and their convention circuit.  Any post that they make takes away from their work on those items.  The forum-goers, by and large, are people who already love the game and support it vehemently.  Most, if not all, of us likely own a copy of SotM, if not several expansions.  We're people who are excited enough about SotM to discuss it, seek out more information, and even compile tons of data about it.

Why not allow playtesters to give a general overview of the characters currently being playtested?  I'm not asking for access to the playtest documents or even detailed mechanics.  If word of mouth is the best kind of free marketing, why not let the people most excited about the game spread the word? 

I understand the ins-and-outs of NDA and the like, but it'd be nice to see some concrete info coming out, even at this relatively early stage.  

It would be interesting if we had some kind of opportunity to give you our assessment of the characters. That would be really hard, though, and >G would have to put some specific limitations on what could and couldn't be shared, which would make it even more challenging...

The playtesters don't get the character background info - we just get the card names and rules text. We don't even have art or flavor text to give us insight into the hero (other than a sketch of the hero on their character card. We might be able to talk about how each hero plays, but even that is hard to do without getting into the mechanics.

(This is best demonstrated by our playtesting of Unity, for those who haven't heard the story. A (not-insignificant) number of playtesters just didn't like her, didn't understand her, and didn't think she was a hero they would enjoy playing. We had these weird cards like Stealth Bot that took damage for others - shouldn't a stealthy bot actually just prevent its own damage? This didn't make a lot of sense. But we were missing that Unity is a Freedom Five fan, that her five key bots represented the members of the F5 (at the time). We were missing her voice from the flavor text. We were missing a lot. When we saw the proofs of those cards, many playtesters reversed their opinion of her - all those details we were missing completely changed our views.)

Very interesting point, Rabit - the outlook of a playtester is certainly different from that of someone with the finished product.  And the idea of an era when most players didn't like Unity flavorfully amuses me a great deal.

I can see it not making sense for upcoming things (those NDAs get too subtle and treacherous), but if Greater Than Games is okay with it, I love some medium (maybe just a thread here?) where Playtesters can share favorite stories from already-released material.

The Unity story confuses me a bit because we had a player in my group who absolutely loved Unity before any of the art or flavor text was revealed. I don't remember who we were fighting, but he destroyed the villain in his first game with her. 

I would like if playtester didn't deliberately give false information or mislead. I think it was during the Shattered Timelines playtesting period, someone posted something to mislead the community because we were getting "too close" to getting something right. Can't remember the details though.

I remember the last time I posted on a topic about Vengeance speculations as a playtester.  I jokingly remarked "Yes, there ARE heroes in this expansion!" and someone immediately took to thinking that I was dropping some hint about the new heroes' deck mechanics.  I hope no one was offended or felt misdirected by that, as I really was just trying to be a dork!

I generally try to avoid the whole "[Redacted]" thing if I can.  It's cute every now and then, but it really isn't fair to post too much in the speculation forums if you're already in the know a decent amount of information about the new set.

I don't know if >G would be ok with this, but I bet we could all have a laugh by discussing the playtesting process for previous expansions.  I was just reminiscing with my group about our Infernal Relics and Shattered Timelines playtesting experiences, and it was a fascinating and enjoyable talk.  Assuming it would be allowed, I know I would love to share some of those stories on the forum.

My only concern, of course, would be violating the playtesting terms.

It is interesting to note that, if you scour these forums for old speculation threads from past expansions, a lot of them are scary accurate. There was one thread in particular during the release of Rook City where popular speculation about a time traveling cowboy named chrono ranger turned out to be very true 2 expansions later.

I can understand why >G wouldn't want any info out there right now, previews are designed to fit in timelines to build anticipation.  Playtesting is a much dirtier affair, as was posted above the details may change, the character isn't revealed, just mechanics (that also could be alterred), and really, if we were privy to arguments about which characters are too strong, too weak, don't synergize well, etc. it wouldn't really build anticipation for the game.

I appreciate a hint now and then that we are barking up the wrong tree or heading in the right direction with speculation, as for me it gives me a better idea of what I am anticipating.

I'm more worried that I'll get so pumped leading up to release that I'll burn myself out on the game before it gets out.  (I'm playing a ton right now)  It happened with Last Night on Earth with the Timber peak expansion, we still play the game, but not nearly like we did.

I wanted to be a playtester, but I'm glad I'm not.  I tend to get into character a lot while playing, and imagine the scenes taking place, I really don't think I'd enjoy testing decks with little character to work from.

My view first off is to say that I strongly considered signing up to be a Playtester during the Shattered Timelines kickstarter.  After thinking about it further though I came to the realization that there may be times that I just couldn't 100% commit to the time requirement that was needed so I decided to take a pass.

I enjoy the speculation and have never gotten offended by any post.  But then again, I look at gaming as a hobby, and don't think I could ever really take offense or get upset over anything that happens in gaming, though anyhow...  Vengeance has me more nervous than Shattered Timelines or other sets because I love the core mechanics of the game.  I may love the new mechanics in Vengeance, but I am just hoping that the change isn't too drastic to where if I don't like it, it would make the expansion essentially unplayable to me and my gaming group.  So I await with baited breath to see what is revealed about the new mechanics when/if they are revealed before the game is released.

Finally, I love the art for Sentinels.  As soon as I get my new set, the first thing I look at is the artwork before the mechanics.  Most often I get the idea of the first character or two that I want to try by the artwork.  After playing the characters a few times that changes, but the art is what gives me the first impression and despite the amount of art spoilers I look for... Alas I know that playtesters are unable to reveal anything about the art.

Great conversation Gents & Ladies.  Let's keep it up.

NAL0781,

Vengeance still feels like playing Sentinels. It feels like playing a really, really hard game of Sentinels, but it doesn't change the fundamental nature of the game. There are changes, of course, but it's still recognisably Sentinels.

And it doesn't stop you from continuing to play Sentinels the way you always have - it's just giving you options.

Can you play the new Vengence rules with out using anything from Vengence, just the old heroes and villains?  Or are the new mechanics only good in the new game?

The "new" mechanics in Vengeace actually only effects the villains. You can mix and match the heroes anyway you want, however Vengeace kind of offers only 1 villain, in the sense that these guys are played together. The heroes add nothing new outside the usual newness from hero decks.

It can also be agrued the Villains also have added new and unique stuff, thus Vengeful Five are along the same lines. They just add more new things than usual.

To answer the question, no you can't play using new Vengeful Five rules without using the V5, as it is their villain mechanic.

The new rules only apply to the Vengeance villains (at the moment. Who knows what will change in playtesting? Although this changing seems unlikely). You can play the new heroes with the old villains and the old heroes with the new villains without a problem, although the latter will need to use the new rules. You'll see why when it comes out. Both have been much in evidence in the playtest forums.

That's what I was expecting, I'm guessing the new villains can only be played that way as well, not seperately.

Wow, thanks everybody.  You calmed my fears about Vengeance mechanic.  Now I have to think about some good speculation on the heroes...  I think that you might see a hero version of Ambuscade.  He is the one Villain who I could see switching sides as he reminds me a little bit of Baron Blade in that he keeps getting beaten down.  Maybe a kind of "if you can't beat 'em join 'em" storyline.  And I do feel sorry for Ambuscade as I always thought he was one of the cooler villains to face, but have found him even easier than Baron Blade so he could fit with Vengeance.  Plus there is that one card, in an environment deck where one of the female heroes (can't remember which one) is attempting to save Ambuscade

It's the Marsquake card in the Time Cataclysm - Tachyon is the one attempting to save him, yelling at him to take her hand. His response - "Non, merci".

Then, in the future, he kneecaps her.

Well, in a future, he kneecaps her.

Touché.

Thank you.  Without having my cards handy I just haven't played the Time Cataclysm enough yet.  I still see Ambuscade as either a possible hero or someone that comes from his storyline could be a new hero either in Vengeance or the future.  We shall see…