The Great Mainstay Detective

I am going to try and connect some weird pieces here.

Whipacorn from The Dreamers deck mentions Mainstay in its flavor text. Ra asks why a unicorn would have a whip for a horn, and Mainstay says "For Whipping!" This joke has more context to it.

Iron Legacy's Iron-Fist Strike card shows him kindney punching a rather large biker dude complete with mom tattoo and chains. What does that dude have chains for? Well, I think maybe for whipping.

The definition of mainstay from the Merriam-Webster dictionary

1: a ship's stay extending from the maintop forward usually to the foot of the foremast

2: a cheif support

In ships with more than 3 masts (the tallest one being the main mast), the biggest strongest cable that is attached to the main mast is called the mainstay. We do have a villain with a pirate ship. The plot thickens!

La Capitan's nemisis icon has some weird stuff going on, but if theres one thing I can say for certain about it, it's that there is a chain in that icon. What does that icon have chains for? Whipping! I think I like where this is going.

Some other quick thoughts about this dude.

The mainstay on a ship runs forward from the main mast (the one runing behind is the backstay go figure). If our Mainstay turns out to be a nemisis of La Capitans, I do not think it would be a stretch to think that he was a part of the crew at one point. Runing away from the old crew, being in front of them so to speak? Maybe he was even first mate given the context of his name.

Going back to Iron-Fist Strike for a moment, it does not seem like Mainstay is holding his chains does it? Possible he dropped them with the force of ILs punch, but the positioning would seem odd if that were the case. They are kind of going around his arms, almost as if it were restraining him to something. Look closer. It seems like there is something being shattered behind Mainstay. Metephor for IL breaking his will to fight back, or something more? My mind is picturing that he is always bound to some psycic mast for whatever happened between him and the rest of the La Capitans crew, though that is not based on anything.

Could I be on to something or am I like way off the mark here?

You're on to SOME things.

You're always way off on others.

But strong work! You've definitely picked some stuff up here!

I hate you. and your tantalizing hints…

jk!

Yeah, I think most of us love to hate Christopher…

Interesting analysis Foote (and thanks for responding, Christopher)!

Ugh . Its never a good sign when a creator tells you that you suck at his game haha

Oh, don't feel bad, Foote! There are a lot of secrets that none of us have figured out. Christopher posts things like that as a friendly tease - it's all good.

Sorry, Foote! I didn't mean to sound negative! I really like your post (and I LOVE your avatar, but that's a separate thing), and I just wanted to let you know that you hit enough things correctly that I sat up and took notice! You definitely got some things I didn't expect anyone to, yet. 

Keep up the good work!

There's also this:

http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/05/24

Haha no worries. I totally got what you ment. Glad you take the time to interact with the community!

I was convinced Mainstay was the guy in red and gold with the atomic symbol on his chest, but with all the threads you've connected I think you may be right about this guy being a former member of the crew who turned against them for some reason. I think you might be wrong about the psychic mast thing, just because that doesn't fit La Capitain's style, but I defifently think he has mental control of the chains

I have to agree with Chaosmanser on this, you've definitly tied your theory together well.

I am going to give this a bump because I am confident that we have found another break in the case. 

Lets go back to Iron-Fist Strike for a moment. Look at Mainstay. Look at him real close.

Take out your Argent Adepts deck. Look for Silver Shadow, the card with the 5 members of the Prime Wardens depicted. That guy, in the red and gold. That hair looks awfully similar. So does that facial hair and color. I have seen that mask before too! Its...its Mainstays?!

Nah. No way. There is no way that big biker dude with the MOM tattoo is the same red/yellow guy from Silver Shadows art? Right?

The biggest piece of evidence tieing the biker to Mainstay is the Nemisis Icon for La Capitain. Lets revisit that Icon for a moment. The chains are obvious and they cement the connection to the biker. Look at the color as well. Purple. On Iron-Fist Strike, remember I was talking about something "shattering" behind him? Its a sort of clearish purple isnt it? Interesting to note.

The other elements of that Icon are a Green light, Darkness (this could be a separate element OR it could be the absence of a separate element, no way to tell just yet), and...a yellow light. Yellow light? 

Back to Silver Shadow. A HA! What is the power our mystery man is weilding? Could it be? A yellow light? I think I just created more questions than answers.

Lets unpack this a little. In my original post, I provided the definition of mainstay. The first entry led me to connect the dots to La Capitain initially and was part of my reasoning for speculating that Mainstay might have been a crew member at one point. This made a lot of sense at first, as I could totally see that biker as a former crew member. But the guy on Silver Shadow? Not so much. So, lets re-evaluate that. I did include the 2ndary definition even though it was not important to my initial speculation. Lets go back to it.

2. A cheif support

Not very helpful. Hey internet, can you find another way to say that?

2. A central cohesive source of support and stability

Ooooohhhh. I think the picture is starting to clear up...kinda

We have seen two forms for Mainstay so far, his "purple" biker form, and his "yellow" spandex form. There will no doubt be a "green" form due to La Capitains Nemisis icon. "Black" form as well possibly? Are they different bodies with one shared mind? Different minds with a shared body? If he is not an old part of her crew, what is their connection?

What if his multiple forms aren't him changing form, but are actually separate bodies as well?  Maybe all of these forms were in him at one time, but they are now separated out into their own entities, or he can create multiples of himself, but each one takes on different traits?

Different bodies with a shared mind is not likely, I don't think; if they're all one person, then why is only Red'n'Gold on Silver Shadow? Ditto for a team with matching costumes; it's possible in that case that only one would be a Prime Warden, but still very unlikely.

So, one body with several minds then? How does that work? Well, we have a Timeship; maybe several of La Capitan's crew were made to walk the plank after a failed mutiny, and while they escaped the sea of time and washed up on solid ground, they did so as one individual, all of them mashed together. Maybe with practice they were able to seperate themselves out so that one body and mind was in the driving seat at a time, and wanting revenge on their old captain they aligned themselves with those most likely to oppose her.

I see one obvious problem with this: Red'n'Gold. A biker might well be the kind of ruffian La Capitan would recruit to her cause, but a spandex-clad light-wielding superhero? Perhaps the look came after they allied with the heroes, but as a former villain with revenge as his only motive for a heel face turn, it's a bit of a big jump. Also, consider the name: Mainstay, which means - as you so helpfully found -'A central cohesive source of support and stability'.

Then it all starts to fall into place, or a possible place at least. We have a hero, Red'n'Gold. He has light-based powers, probably, or maybe his powers are something more temporal, wielding the power of the sea of time against his enemies. The former idea matches the picture of him a little more, but the latter could still fit it. Maybe he's a Prime Warden at this point, maybe not (I think so, because the dysfunctional image I have of Mainstay is less likely to be recruited by the team, but it's irrelevant really). Then the biker and his coconspirators are cast into the sea of time, and maybe Red'n'Gold is in the wrong place at the wrong time or maybe his temporal powers find them and try to pull them out, but either way they end up merged with him, two or three violent, vengeful souls chained to a Mainstay.

This explanation gives Mainstay a reason to be a hero ratheer than just an enemy of a villain - Red'n'Gold is already a hero, and the others are dragged along for the ride (probably willingly, after a while, though in it for the action rather than any altruistic reasons). Further, the background of the chain on La Capitan's nemesis icon is purple, yes, but a very different purple to the shards on Iron Fist Strike. So perhaps that's not something innate to the biker, but the link to the biker being shattered, after which Mainstay reverts to Red'n'Gold. The way I see it, Mainstay's character card would be Red'n'Gold, with biker and the others being ongoings in his deck. And what does Iron-Fist Strike do? It destroys ongoings.

One last thing which was bothering me was the placement of this hero, expansion-wise. It's a temporal mess, the kind of thing that could easily be - should have been, maybe - in Shattered Timelines. But on the other hand, where is it going to be instead?

Vengeance. How very apt.

Spirits fused together... biker motif... vengeance theme. ..

Nope, that's jut ridiculous... I don't see it. What's next? Is his head gonna catch fire? ;P

AWWWWWWW YEAH!!! The pieces are all starting to fall into place.

The yellow glow makes me think its going to be radiant/light damage, but I could see it being energy as well. The Purple makes me think the chains are controled by psychic power. Green throws me. It could be toxic sure, but it might be related to sonic damage as well judging by the design of the Capitains nemisis icon. At this point, I think the black is not a seperate design element but if it turns out to be a 4th entity, then it would probably be related to infernal damage.

My main issue with this theory is that the guy on Iron Fist Strike is about twice the size of the guy on Silver Shadow, and seems to have significantly darker skin (though that could be a lighting issue).

He can't be a Hulk/ Dr. Jeckel/ Mr. Hyde Type guy? That's what I've always thought. There hasn't been a form-changing hero in SotM before, why not now? 

When I thought of the 4-in-1 hero possibility on my speculation thread, granted, I to thought this hero would have fit better in Shattered Timelines. But Blue brought a very useful thought of three entities being villains joining up with one hero, and therefore his possibility of being in Vengeance.

In katsue's defense, it's a form change and costume change. I can see that being a tough sell for some. I have my own doubts to, but lighting aside they have the same face and wear the same mask and they both have obvious elements of Captains rather unique icon. 

We may be off on the details, but all the clues point to them being connected, if not the same person outright

I've always assumed the 4 icons in the logo would also somehow translate to the 4 forms you see of La Capitan on her flip side.  Would there be any way these two might match any of the four persona/forms/outfits from her flip side?

I wonder if we might still be looking at this from the wrong angle, slightly. Meerkat mentioned a crew member walking the plank... but why a crew member? Maria Helena has been traveling all throughout time causing trouble, why not a hero, or some por bystander tossed into the Sea of Time? That sounds like something that could create an intriguing hero. I like this idea of Mainstay as a core around which multiple bodies and personalities have gathered, and he'd rotate them out, kind of like those old toys where you spun the sections to create pictures of different people.

I tried discerning something from the cards, and La capitan's deck and symbol and I might have potentially stumbled upon the third form of Mainstay, and from this have ideas about the others.

Tachyon's deck has bothered me for a while, there are a ton of characters pictured who I cannot place, but one suddenly jumped to mind looking at La Capitan's symbol. There is a dark section, or a shadowy section. There is also a shadow figure on Tachyon's Supersonic Response card. I think that might also be mainstay. It's weak evidence, but it was the only shadow I could come up with that didn't seem part of some other group. going off this I tried to find other "villains" who might be Mainstay... no real luck....... though I might have found some other interesting things that I shall go and put in a seperate thread.

I just had an insane thought, possibly induced by stress and lack of sleep, but here we go.

When dealing with La Capitan we know we are dealing with time shenagins, and it's bugging me that biker dude and red n' gold are our main forms of Mainstay right now, but if we have timeline craziness why not age craziness. What if Mainstay is a kid? We do have quite a few unidentified children running around the card art, and I'm particularly thinking about "Potential Sidekick" from Spite's deck. This kid has a name, "Thiago" specifically. Adding to this? I was wondering why Mainstay is one of the Prime Wardens and LA Capitan's nemesis? Looking at Silver Shadow we have Argent Adept, nemesis a force of nature trying to destroy the world as we know it; Fanatic, nemesis a fallen angel trying to bring Hell to Earth; Tempest, nemesis an Alien warlord who genetical alters his victims and wants to destroy all life on earth. Granted Haka's nemesis isn't all that impressive, but Haka is shown in the Final Wasteland as the final guardian of all man's knowledge and stories, enduring against horrors which his nemesis is somehow connected to. And then we have a time-traveling thief as a nemesis, she doesn't seem on the same scale, unless we consider damage done to the time stream. What if La Capitan's antics are messing with the fabirc of time, and that is why mainstay is her nemesis, he is protecting the sanctity of time. How does this help convince me he's a kid? Time-crazed prisoner, "The Child is The Center". I thought this refered to Visionary due to Fixed point, but just because an event must occur in all realities does not neccesarily mean you are the center of the multiverse, and here we have a hero whose name can be defined as "A central cohesive source of support and stability" whose nemesis is a time traveler. If he is a child, then he could also be the Center refered to here.

I'm not sure of that yet, but you did bring something up. Another way the '4-in-1' theory could be taken is that each form is another version of Mainstay from a different timeline. All of the different 'forms' or 'identities' of Mainstay could all just be the same man, just from different timelines.  Different events could have him developed in different ways.

Hmmm.I don't think I like Thiago being Mainstay, partly because of the Legacy costume (and by extension the lack of Mainstay mask) and partly because Thiago is a victim. Taking 'The child is the center' to mean that Mainstay is a child is extremely interesting though. I guess he'd be a normal kid, or else his powers would be related to the sea of time, and then suddenly he has these angry heroes stuck in his head which he has to channel out to fight crime? I'm not sure I like this idea, but it certainly has merit. And yes, the implications of the Time-Crazed Prisoner writing about Mainstay are massive...

Out of curiosity, how do you know that the Potential Sidekick's name is Thiago? Did it come up in someone's backstory somewhere I haven't read? I don't know anything about him beyond what's shown on the card. So, his appearance and the implication provided by both that and the card title that he wants to be like Legacy.

It's on the flavor text of the card the kid is on.

I played in a game once with the Potential Sidekick. He's a sharp kid. Can't remember his name, though. :-(

Ahh, okay, evidently that's one card's fluff text I've thus far failed to read. Whups!

His name is actually Thiago.

Thiago = Mainstay. You heard it right here folks 

Case closed. 

I still think Vanessa Long is the child in question. If the Time Cataclysm happens as a result of The Visionary travelling back in time, it neatly explains why Vanessa Long being part of the psychic supersoldier program is a Fixed Point in time - no timeline can exist in which Vanessa Long doesn't develop psychic powers and travel back in time.

Also, the Incapacitated Dark Visionary can endlessly revisit the Fixed Point.

I agree. I've always thought Visionary was said child.

I think it would be too easy to say it is Visionary. So let's make it more complicated. The child is Young Legacy's kid who developed a time travel ability. Heard stories of Grandpa, tried to save him, and....well...The kid would be SotM's Franklin Richards.

Still not complicated enough, Pydro. Obviously, this Mainstay and Young Legacy's child are the same person. While the child travelled through time, he encountered LaCapitain and tried to fix her meddling with the time stream, but it was one of their battles that caused the crack allowing all the realities to slip through. He's been in the background the whole time till the next expansion quietly repairing the large holes in time.

"Cosmic Spackler"?

I've thought that a lot as well, but that makes her story so much more signifigant, and complex that it already is.

Not only was she in a psychich super-soldier program that killed her mother, and not only did she witness Iron Legacy in her original timeline (impression I get from her prophetic vision card), and not only did she travel back in time, giving herself a deadly brain anuerism and a dark alter ego in the proccess, to save herself and her mother from the supersoldier project, only to find out a few years later that her younger self is comatose with deadly nightmares, and her alter ego breaks out and takes control of her body, and terrible stuff like this is guarenteed to happen to every version of her that will ever exist, but she is also the center of the entire, crumbling, multiverse without even knowing it. A multiverse threatened by some unknown force.

She could be the center, but since the Block and the Time Cataclysm were released at the same time, and this is a rather big important status (center of the multiverse), I think Visionary as the child might be a red herring. I would love it to be her, but my instincts aren't so sure anymore.

I don't think there is any reason at this point to believe the "child in the center" is anyone other than young Vanessa Long. I am down for finding we are wrong later, I just don't see how it can be supported, at least right now. 

I think Visionary is rather important. I mean, dark visionary still has a hand to play in my opinion. We don't quite know what her impact will be, but I can assure you that it will be significant. 

Back to Mainstay. I like the ideas about him taking on these other personalities as he plummets into the time cataclysm. La Capitain probably visited his time/home and I imagine he puts up a rather heroic fight but loses in the end. As punishment makes him walk the plank. Now he might walk the plank with other traitors/prisoners, or just aquired random personalities while falling, but this what fuses him to other souls if you wanna call them that at this point. Gives him heroic personality to start and a reason to have a grudge against Capitan. 

Right now the key difference in the timelines revolves around Legacy. Therefore it is possible for the cause to revolve around Legacy. Possibly someone trying to save him and not realizing the consequences. Now back Mainstay.

Is young legacys death the cause of change in timelines, or a symptom of whatever alters the timeline. 

Visionary is alive in the Iron Legacy future. It's her main timeline. Her bio says she fought with the freedom 6 which cements that. She travels back in time to try and prevent this future from happening. She saves her baby self from project cocoon (a secondary goal of hers) but it would seem project cocoon wasn't responsible for her psychic powers. Now we have a dark visionary running around. 

It would seem to me that Visionarys main objective is to keep young legacy alive to accomplish what she traveled back to do. Visionary is our key here. The question I have is, does Dark Visionary compromise this goal? Will the unexpected appearance of Grampy legacy save his granddaughters life?

I could make a whole new thread with Visionary talk though.

Visionary might be the cause, but Legacy is the motivation. If that is true “the child” could be referring to YL as the split depends on whether she lives or dies. Also keep in mind that Visionary might be going back to save YL or even kill Legacy. We know it was BB, but a small trick by Visionary could easily shift it.

We are on the same page with different definitions of what "is" is haha

I think dark visionary throws a wrench into things. Read her bio on kickstarter. I think the implication is that she will eventually do something rather unhelpful. What "decisions" did dark visionary do in her universe that differ so much from the Vanessa we all know? 

It is possible that dark visionary knows exactly what must be done. She emerged from the cocoon ready to get down to business of saving the "multiverse". I anticipate dark visionary wanting to do something rather drastic. Something that might save everything but at a great cost. It'll be met with resistance for sure. 

These questions about visionary I don't think will be answered in Vengence. We would need to face a big enough threat that would put all timelines and universes in jeprody. I don't see the V5 being that threat. Maybe a massive cosmic force that's been watching with interest from afar will force DVs hand. 

New thought. 

When visionary went back in time, she got her parents out of project cocoon. From her bio, the only reason project cocoon was shut down was due to the uncertainty of whether it was responsible for the death of her mom. 

So in the games main timeline/universe, can we assume project cocoon was never disbanded? Are there implications or ramifications to this? 

NEW WILD CRAZY SPECATION ALERT

The group on CRs bounty card The Whole Gang are all test subjects from a project cocoon that was never shut down

EDIT: I should make a visionary thread as I am derailing my own thread rather badly

I had another thought today, whilst playing in the Block and having the Time-Crazed Prisoner come up. I'm probably miles off here, of course. It's not to do with the "child" mentioned on the wall but with the prisoner himself. Most prisoners seem to be villains or otherwise unpleasant guys. The Time-Crazed Prisoner is shown in shadow, meaning his identity is a mystery. If he was someone new, why hide his face? So maybe he's someone we already know. He's presumably been thrown about the timelines a lot or otherwise messed up from come kind of contact with the time cataclysm or something like that, so he could be from anywhen. I dunno, maybe I'm totally wrong here, but look at his eyes...then look at Final Evolution in Iron Legacy's deck. Is that a very bad guess, or does anyone else see a similarity there? ;)

I never thought about it, but I can see where you're coming from. I'd say it is possible, but unlikely

I can't really see a likeness. Besides, didn't Legacy kill Baron Blade after Young Legacy died?

Timey-wimey. This version of him could have come from anywhere/anywhen ;). I dunno, i suppose I just thought that if the Time-Crazed Prisoner was an entirely new character, then why bother hiding his face? Therefore maybe he's someone we know, and something about the expression on his face made me think of Blade's appearance in Final Evolution. Okay so the Prisoner's hair is messed up, but somehow I have a feeling that personal grooming isn't particularly high on his agenda at this point ;). Also, there's the slightest possibility that if the "child" mentioned on the wall is Young Legacy, this might be a connection - him killing her leads to Legacy killing him, but him killing Legacy leads to her taking Legacy's place. Maybe in whatever timeline he comes from there's been an entirely different series of events.

I dunno. I just figured the Prisoner has to be someone we know and that was the nearest match I could find off the top of my head ;).

What if Mainstay is one person who can switch between their possible future selves?  In one timeline he's a biker hero, in another he's atomic-powered, etc.  Then the common denominator, the mainstay as it was, is the starting character card, his jumping off point for these possible futures.

Yup, that's what I was thinking. Think that was post #24 on here…Anyway.

I think that would make for an interesting mechanic, I'm just wondering how they'd go about doing it.

Someone mentioned the possibility of those "forms" (for lack of a better term) being Ongoings due to the fact that Iron Fist Strike  destroys Ongoings. Would seem to be a valid guess. Could introduce a new keyword as well, however I doubt that would be the case.

Vengance has been stated to fair well as a standalone game and does not nessesarily need the base game, which makes me think the heros included will be of lower complexity and be more along the lines of wraith or tempest in that they are not so much "niche" characters but generally strong. 

Now granted, there is no way of knowing if Mainstay will even show up in Vengance or how far off we are on his character, but if he's in Vengance, I'd expect there to not be a completely new mechanic (like nightmists spell icon, ect).

Edit: Although AZ in the base game had the module keyword and was a 3 complexity so not saying it isn't possible. 

And now for a completely different thought. What if Mainstay isn't one person with multiple forms, but actually mutiple people. Mainstay was a member of La Capitan's crew, after something happens (he rebels, etc) she dumps him off in the past where he doesn't have access to any time traveling tech. From then on, Mainstay and his descendents train their children and apprentices to always be on the look out for La Capitan should she show up in their time. Mainstay here could be the term for the constant vigilance that this group maintains. How this would work as a deck I have no idea.

I think what they mean by a "stand alone game" is that there's enough in the box that you can run a game without outside expansions or the starter box since there's going to be 5 heroes to use.

Yeah, this is such a cool idea, but would be very, very hard to actually execute…

What if Mainstay was a time lord and those different people are his different lives.

Also, is it possible that >G would create a new deck and character card for an existing hero?  I think a new version of youngest legacy + her own deck would be pretty awesome.

I believe I heard Christopher say that he would be more than willing to give Young Legacy her own deck, assuming that somebody is willing to give him $100,000 to fund it.

I would much rather see new heros than another legacy deck with new art to be honest. 

Ha!  Great minds think down the English channel…or somthing.  Guess I need to pay more attention when readng through threads!

I know I'm late on this discussion, but I'll throw in my support for the idea of Mainstay being one person able to cycle through four different forms. The only question that leaves me with is: what will his base form be? I assume that the four forms would be ongoings as we've been talking about, but that means his hero card will have to be him with no forms attached. Will he be just a normal person? But that's not all that important.

The idea of the forms being ongoing cards makes sense considering Iron-Fist Strike's effects and art. If it destroys an ongoing, the green shattering effect (don't have the card in front of me but that's what someone said) could be Mainstay's chain form "breaking" and him returning to what will be normal.

I would bet that his base form is the one we see on Silver Shadow card art, mostly because it is the whole Prime Wardens team and it would make sense not to have a secondary form in the art. 

He could be a Dr. Strange type with some Jason Blood type transformations. Idk. I do know I am pretty excited for all things Vengance (assuming that's where we will find him)

While I do find this idea interesting, I don't see any unique gameplay. If you can only have 1 form out at a time, even if it has a special power, it is just another form of Bunker. If ther forms add a little bonus to the cards, e.g. one adds damage, one adds defense, etc., then we have another Fixer. If you can only use certain cards while in certain forms, we will be running into card draw problems. Unless I am missing something, I would rather want a unique deck over a cool theme.

If anybody has played Yomi, one of the decks does have a character that can change forms (into a dragon). In that game you got a straight out bonus (opponents can't dodge) and only certain cards could be used in dragon form.

I think cards having unique effects based on form would be a way of doing it (as well as giving each form a power, and possibly a bonus of some kind. Also a damage type change, so that a generic card or power can deal X damage, but Biker will deal melee and Red'n'Gold will deal radiant, etc.). As yuu say, Pydro, it could make you run into card draw problems if certain cards can only be played by certain forms, but I'd instead propose that any card can be played while in any form, but with better/different effects. Examples would be a card which deals damage and then lets a certain form destroy an ongoing, or lets one form destroy an ongoing, another form draw cards, another form deal damage, another form heal. That way each form has their own speciality and flavour, while still allowing them to be easily playable (I think this Mainstay's base power would have to be 'retrieve a form', because without one he would be seriously shut down...).

I think the issue (at leat to me) is that Fixer already has that mechanic. He has a bae power that is augmented by his various cards. True the augmentation might have different themes, but it would still be the same idea.

I think the only problem with a power that let's you find a form is that if you gave the 4 statistiacally worst heroes the same equivalent power, they would be significantly better. To find out another hero has that power would just keep them way on the bottom looking up.

Just thinking about this...what if it went like this. Every card in the deck belongs to 1 of the forms, but there isn't an official form card. You can play any card any time, however, there will be a bonus if you chain cards of the same form. For example, a card might say, play another card of the same form, or this card deals damage based on the number of X form cards out. This would be different mechaninc than we have had, but still keeps the idea of forms.

Oh man, all the heros have the same old boring "use a power and do an effect" mechanic, I need new stuff!

On a serious note, be careful with the "but if you gave X ability to other heros" yadda yadda. I know we are talking about a theoretical hero with theoretical powers, but generally that kind of thinking only leads to greater symmetry in the heros instead of fostering unique play styles and themes which I think we can all agree is a huge strength in this game. 

Side note, since you mentioned Yomi, did anyone see that Legacy and the F5 will be a playable character in the new BattleCon game? I prefer that over Yomi personally, and that was exciting to see

GSF.

EDIT: I am all for new themes IF it brings new mechanics. If there is a very interesting theme, but it plays the same way as another character, I don't really see the point. I do think you also have to be careful to not make any other hero obsolete. Right now we have 4 heroes that are considered "weak." If you create another similar character that works better, you wouldn't be adding a hero, you would be replacing one.

I did here about that. I think GtG sent out an update about it one time. I liked Yomi, but found out that you REALLY needed to play with people of the same level. As I played more (online, in person, etc) it just wasn't fun to teach new players. Since then, never really wanted to get into a similar game. I also had a problem that after paying $100 for the base game, I also had to pay another $50 to play online. When it was free, I played a ton online, but couldn't convince myself to pay the $50 when it would make my base set obsolete (nobody was at my level).

I disagree 100% with your labeling of some heros "weak" (assuming you mean the bottom heros of the statistics thread) but that discussion is best served on the other threads raging over it.

I do want to say though, that I do not think we will ever run into an issue of an "obsolete" hero. Did Team Leader Tach make Bunker obsolete because of a similar but flat-out-better power? No. Why? Because they still played very different and were thematically sound. We gotta get away from comparing hero's powers to other heros. A hero deck has to work within itself first and foremost and it is there you will find better questions to ask about game balance. The dangers of making a character obsolete that are present in formats like that of Yomi and others are just not a concern with this format for the simple reasons that SotM heros are not balanced against each other. 

PS.

I never got Yomi because of that rediculous price point, so I totally feel you on that. BattleCon I felt was a superior game in the genre and at a much lower initial cost, but thats neither here nor there. 

I am using weak the same way as it is used on the forum, not what I think, because it is what most people think that would cause the problems (and yes this isn't the place to discuss it). While you can't compare different heroes' powers, you can compare them if the mechanics are the same. Let's say the guy with different forms mechanincally acts the same as MR. FIxer (or AZ, Bunker, etc.), but has a base power that let's him use that mechanic much better, now we are running into serious problems. People will began to play the new one, think it is so much better, and feel unerpowered whenever they play the "original" (not to mention there will be a lot more threads about why X is so weak). I am not saying everyone will say this, but I do think enough people will. While introducing the game, a new player picks Mr. Fixer. The experience player quickly gives him Mainstay and says, "They play the same but he is much better." Obviously, this will depnd on how similar they are, but that was my original point.

Something else I wanted to point out. I was the one that suggested having a new YL deck with YL art, but it plays the same. The consensus was that a deck that had a different theme but worked the same mechanically was pointless. While I don't completely agree with the point (I still want a YL deck), I do understand where they are coming from. A deck with a new theme, but the same mechanic, I would expect, would get the same reaction.

I guess my point is that there won't be a hero that plays exactly like another but just flat better. There are no two heros that feel anywhere near similar and I have no reason to believe that >G would let a hero like that get past any kind of playtesting. I think it is an unfounded fear to be honest.

I completely agree. Which is why I made my original post about "how a hero with multiple forms will work." I was curious about how it can be implemented without having the same gameplay as another hero.

So......how do you think the idea can be implemented without feeling like another hero?

Versatile forms does not a Fixer make, but if you want something inarguably different from any other hero then why not limit what each form can do? (This is all on top of the Mainstay ideas I laid out earlier.) Form 1 can heal, say, but has very few ways (a few one-shots only, perhaps) to do damage. Form 2 does single-target damage, but no multi-target or utility. Form 3 could be control, deck control or environment destruction, with a bit of ongoing destruction thrown in, perhaps. Form 4... well I dunno, but you get the idea. Now this is completely different from Fixer; Fixer has his own unique support role, while Mainstay can fill several roles, but less well than someone made for that role.

In fact, why not make him fairly ongoing- or equipment-heavy? After a board-clear, Fixer can set back up within a couple of turns, but without a Form in his hand Mainstay needs a turn just to get that up with a power, and his other cards are just gone. Even if we weren't trying to make him as different from Fixer as possible this could be interesting; give him alternate powers or other boosts, but only for certain forms.

True, I think we might have different ideas of what it means to be Mr FIxer. To me, he is a character where almost all of his cards augment his basic ability (more damage, AoE, irreducible, etc.). If you had another character that did the same thing just with different abilities: Form A adds 1 damage, Form B adds healing, etc, at leat to me, it would feel the same. I am well aware taht I could be standing alone on this one.

I did make a sugestion above that wouldn't rely on forms, but I think it is because I was trying to get so far away from another hero.

I do like the idea that only certain cards work in certain forms, but I think you would need some other little trick there. Either each card has a bassc effect with an addiitional effect per form, or each card has a line, "discard this card and draw 1  (or 2 more)" or something like that.

I can't wait until Vengance is revealed and our entire theory about who/what mainstay is is blown sky high out of the water.

I bet the guys at >G are laughing their butts off say "Oh man, these guys are going to feel SO dumb later" as they smoke bomb off into the night haha

Mainstay's the kid on Rhapsody of Vigor, and is the nemesis of Miss Information. Calling it now.

That isn't a IRL picture?

It might be, but if it is we don't know whose, so we don't know that it is. Even if it is, maybe that person pledged so much that they were unknowingly immortalised as a future hero.

What if 10 cards were dedicated to each form and that each of those were kept in a separate pile and you drew from the deck that your current form is in. The starting hand could be a card from each and the power to switch form with other little changes than the draw pile. I don't know if it would work well but it would be a different mechanic from what we've seen. Of course there needs to be a pull to draw from each deck but at the same time sometimes some forms could be better for specific things.

I think the problem with that is that it changes the mechanics too much; every hero currently plays the same (in terms of 'here's a deck and a hero character card, go'), and I doubt they'd change that without a really good reason.

I'd like to see them channel some more Infernal Relics.  Spell Number and Perform/Accompany text was absolutely magnificent, and I think it would be pretty great if they could find more ways to play with the core mechanics without completely rewriting them.

I can confirm it is an IRL picture…

That's what I thought. Thanks for clarifying Rabit. I have seen that question come up a few times but without a confirmation

Yeah, I don't know if I should have confirmed it, I was just… in a mood last night and decided to.

This could easily have been touched upon days before, but if we're thinking of a multi-form hero, why not have his base power be a Form Shift? Most, if not all, of his cards grant various bonuses and/or basic things when played in each form. A given card would allow, for example: Fire- Deal 1 Target 2 Melee damage, Water - Deal up to 3 enemy targets 1 damage, Earth - Reduce the next damage dealt to a hero target by 2, Wind - 1 Hero target regains 1 HP and may draw a card. (Obviously he wouldn't be an elemental shifter, but that is much easier to write out instead of pretending to know anything at all about Mainstay).

In this way, Mainstay would have to plan all of his actions one turn ahead, as he wouldn't ordinarily be able to shift before playing a card. I would imagine he would have ways around it (such as a One Shot: Change Form, then play a card), but generally he would need to see what's ahead and plan for that.

I would also imagine that if he had Equipments or Ongoings, they would give certain boosts to one or more forms. Consider a Motercycle Jacket granting Fire form +1 damage, or Steady and Clear as the Ocean, allowing him to draw an extra card at the end of his turns.

Ah! Playing one turn ahead! I like this and I've had the same idea...but that mechanic will be for Twitchy! My working theory of twitchy being a "fixed outcome" hero (as opposed to his nemesis Kismets luck based "anything can happen" theme) fits well with that idea.

Cant wait to see how wrong/right we all are on this. 

It occurs to me that you could do some VERY neat things with a multiple form/split through time person.

So:

Character card- the "base form" 

Power: Shift/split/phase- searches for a form and puts it into play, but not as an ongoing.  New forms go directly into play over top the character card- maybe keep the HP totals to avoid healing to full each time.  Or each form has low HP and they do heal?  Maybe its even 4 different "Character cards" that you set aside at the beginning?

The trick is since each form has its own base power, switching back is difficult.  You'd have to rely on the cards to help you switch. 

It would be really exciting if each one had limited HP, since then La Capitan could steal them as she beat each one- stripping him of his alternate forms/selves

So you could have a one-shot that allows you to switch to a new form.

A one-shot that allows you to go back to basic (maybe basic has more HP, or intrinsic damage reduction?)

A one-shot that allows you to put multiple forms into play simultaneously (increased damage, extra power?)

Ways to get them back from the trash

Ongoings that allow for on-the-fly switching. 

You could have conditional equipment- things that always give a bonus, but give extra oomph to the associated form.

Chains- increase Mainstay's damage by 1

If in biker form, increase damage by an additional 1

Its possible he's a Jekyll/Hyde split, but if he is associated with La Capitan, I'm guessing 4 forms.  (LC's "Split through time" side has 4 versions of her).

 apologies for the rambling.  this was disjointed, even by my standards.

Might wanna be careful with posting stuff like that, I had a whole legal argument over on my speculation thread about leagal stuff, and all I did was give suggestions for three different cards. -.-6

Uh…What?

Well we were discussing the possibility of Mainstay having multiple forms. In another thread Christopher casually mentioned:

He used the plural. Just saying…

Ah. Might want to just…type that all out next time for the more dence of us.

Maybe it’s a clue. Maybe it is clever context sensitive misdirection. With Christopher there is no telling.

I'd be hesitant to call it a "clue". Probably more of a misdirection like Jaymann said, since the topic has been a popular one recently.

If we get enough clues, does Christopher flip and become a target so we can zap him with stuff? ;)

Considering that H would equal the number of people on the forums, that will be a lot of clues.

I am pretty sure his card reads "whenever Christopher would be flipped, instead have him use his *smoke bomb* ability. Place confusion counters on each player equal to the amount of vague responses given this post"

Actually H is equal to the number of heroes on the forum, I wouldn't be counted then.

I WOULD use my Smoke Bombs... EXCEPT SOMEONE STOLE THEM!

*glares at imprimis*

So Imprimis is the inspiration for La Capitan?

*vague idea about forumites being used as fodder for the Great Machine that is powering the Sentinels universe confirmed!*

The first version of the 5th?

The 5th what?

And hey, cool. we can get away with stealing gear from the devs - quick, someone use Precognition on Christopher! :D Or Prophetic Vision on his office or wherever he writes down his dastardly plans, that'd work too, I suppose >:).

The 5th imprimis - imprimis5 :P

Could we perhaps start Timeshifting the >G team as much as possible? That sounds like it would work...

Ooh yeah, that'd work - get everything into play that much quicker :D.

This is my favourite part of this guessing game!

Agreed. The only downside of being a playtester is not getting to participate in all the guessing since I know some of the answers! I know it's weird to complain about something like that (I LOVE being a PT), but in the words of Michael Caine in The Prestige:

"You don't really want to know the answer. You want to be fooled."

Speculation is still a load of fun though. I quite enjoy it.

Personally, I like messing with the people who don’t know with little half truths and a bit of misdirection.

I love speculation and crazy half baked theorys as well (as you can tell since I started this thread). I am VERY excited to start brand new theory threads once Vengeance is out and I can pour over every last piece of flavor text and card art to try and string together more interesting ideas. The way >G has gone about doing things has lent itself wonderfully to fueling my perverse pleasure in doing so.

But lets not get ahead of ourselves. There is still a mystery afoote! Get it? I slay me.