Episode 223 of the Letters Page: Writers’ Room: Fanatic # 27

Cover not showing currently but this is the incap side of FA Fanatic

Edit: now a cover

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Random aside based on one of the letters. If I ever use the Lance of Longinus in an urban fantasy story, it wouldn’t be significant because of it’s connection to the Crucifixion. That might have primed it, allowed it to become a focus and gather power, but that’s not what forged it. No, that happened when Longinus, a simple soldier, refused to elevate a man into a god. Since then, the spear is very good at cutting through the defenses of those who would claim to be gods…

I mean, if that was his goal, he failed miserably…

I haven’t had a chance to listen to the episode yet (important life stuff going on), but it would be a bit funny if the lance was cursed such that it revived whoever it was used on.

Fun fact: Garfield hates Mondays because they remind him of how cyclical and monotonous his life is. This is canon according to Jim Davis himself: Jim Davis Explains Why Garfield Loves Lasagna and Hates Mondays and Why People Love Garfield | HuffPost Entertainment

Garfield does not have a job, Garfield does not go to school and every day is the same. Nevertheless every Monday is just a reminder that his life is the same old, same old cycling again and for some reason even though his life is pretty much the same every day on Mondays specifically, awful things tend to happen to him physically.

Also, the part about Garfield and propaganda reminds me of this video .

Oh, it wasn’t HIS goal. He just said “no.” Sure, he died because of it, but that’s how a lot of these legendary items are forged.

Honestly this is the clip from Garfield and Friends that sticks in my mind Garfield: It Must Be True! - YouTube

I was definitely swayed by Garfield’s pro-lasagna propaganda when I was a kid.

Wow, did not expect Christopher to know about the “Garfield misses Jon” theory!

They could call it Il Garflimento. :V

Ooh, Apostate confirmed for Definitive Edition! :3

Fanatic is an Agnes song.

I love Christopher’s know-it-all turbonerd voice for Soothsayer Carmichael. XD

Wait, the Dagger of Thuul isn’t real?

Lots of good questions this week. And Trevor did a good job!

Are we talking about the same spear? The one that a Roman soldier (“Longinus”) thrust into Jesus, to ensure that he was dead (not even kill him, just ensure the death)? After which, Jesus rose again, thus proving he is God?

Not quite. Longinus wasn’t the nameless soldier that was at the Crucifixion. He was a Christian soldier sometime later, who refused to worship the Emperor as a god. He was put to death because of that. His spear was said to carry one of the nails from the “True Cross” (enough pieces of THAT have been sold over the centuries to build Noah’s Ark a couple times, but that’s another thing). That it was the same spear as the Crucifixion is debatable, and like bit in Authurian mythos that combine Excalibur and the Sword in the Stone, they blended together over the centuries.

For me, the Spear of Longinus is what Asuka uses in the End of Evangellion, as best evidenced in that awesome AMV set to Du Hast.

For me, it’s what Hitler used to keep all the superheroes out of WWII:

Interesting. I have not seen that interpretation of it, nor can I find it in my searches. Do you have a link to something I can read about it?

Argh… can’t remember where I came across it. Something I was studying in college or watching back when the History Channel was actually about (gasp) history.

The Wikipedia article has lots of citations for Longinus being the dude who stabbed Jesus on the Cross.

I could be wrong. Problem is tradition and mythology actually predates scripture, so add two millennia of drift, and a nameless dude in one part of the tale gets conflated with another dude from a different story.

Again, see Authurian mythos, or Robin Hood, or any mention of Zagreus in Greek myth, or a thousand others.

Well, I really like your interpretation if you’re discussing a spear that was used to kill an emperor who was claiming to become a god! That would make for a really cool relic.

If someone claimed that was the goal with the spear that pierced Jesus’ side, they failed miserably (in which case, I like my thought about a cursed spear that actually revives whoever is stabbed, although I would not like for a story like that to be made).

That’s the idea. Kind of a Stargate Teal’c in the way. “You are no god.”

Again, the story I’m referencing, the soldier just refused to worship the Emperor as a god. He didn’t get away with it, but I imagine it would be VERY useful to some uppity ancient threat that’s emerged in the modern day…

No respect for Garfield or Jim Davis since he’s admitted it’s not written to be funny, only to make money.

Garfield Minus Garfield is a brilliant case study in John slowly losing his mind, however.

Counter-argument: More respect for Jim Davis for finding a niche and making it work for him, and not trying to pretend that it’s some grand vision when he knows it’s just a little cultural touchstone that makes people’s days a bit better.

(Also bonus points because he endorsed Garfield Minus Garfield and enjoys people playing with his work, probably because he doesn’t have a lot of ego invested in it.)

Points for honesty, certainly.

While we’re on this subject, I recommend mezzacotta - Square Root of Minus Garfield.

I think the only Earthborn villains that might compete with Atum in terms of body count would be one of the extremely long-lived villains: Gloomweaver, Zhu Long or Biomancer. While they don’t tend to kill a lot of people at once, they might have killed a city’s worth of people over their long lives.

It also depends if kills from their minions or organization also count for them.

Well, I strongly disagree with Christopher and Adam about something: it is not interesting at all to have a non-Christian writer produce material with a Christian theme that gets lots of the details right. That is phenomenally common. Not only do non-Christians gain a passable knowledge of Christian mythology just by absorbing or assimilating standard American culture, but we are also more likely to make some study of comparative religion in our own religious education (that was a standard unit at my synagogue). Plus, we could always research for the writing of a character like Fanatic – and we would have extra motivation to get the details right if we are trying to blend in, either with writers, editorial direction, or with audiences. Conversely, I would think that if the Sentinel Comics metaverse is like our universe, the Fanatic-tries-different-religions storyline was definitely written by someone with a generic middle-of-the-road WASP upbringing who made no special research effort beyond the encyclopedia level.

This isn’t to say that I think C&A weren’t perfectly well-meaning in suggesting that minority cultures will have interesting things to say about the majority culture. I just think most consumers in the US with Christian cultural upbringings really have no idea how much of the media that parrots back their own cultural touchstones was actually written by Jews or atheists or other non-Christians.

I joked on the LP Discord that I felt called out when they said actual Christians wouldn’t like Fanatic, because I’ve noted a few times I actively dislike Fanatic in large part because she’s an incredibly lousy depiction of a Catholic. And I don’t mean in the sense of “oh they didn’t follow the details of the myths right” but because she just doesn’t at all behave the way I was taught to be when raised as a Catholic growing up.

And in any other venue I’d probably just sigh and be like “whatever” because certainly there’s plenty of RL comic writers who get this stuff wrong, but it feels a little nose-crinkly when it’s specifically coming from two writers who usually take the effort to handle other religions respectfully when they come up.

So I’ve mostly just said I hope later on they introduce a more accurate Catholic hero, or maybe at least have Fanatic go through an arc where she meets up with a minor Catholic character–ideally a purely pacifist charity worker of some stripe–who shows her how to be a better Catholic.

Alternatively, have said minor character call Fanatic out on being such a lousy practitioner of the religion.

I sometimes forget Fanatic is Christian, despite how in my face it is. Like, I remember that Unity and Wraith are Jewish but I always see Fanatic as just “non-specific Angel” until I remember she’s specifically meant to be Christian.

The image that just snapped into my head was of Fanatic, with the same grim expression, armors, intensity, and demeanor, but going through the motions of actual Franciscan-like practices.

“YEA, INNOCENT BYSTANDER, I HEREBY BESTOW UPON YOU LOAVES AND FISHES TO SATISFY YOUR NEED!!!”

“AUGH! THE VILLAIN HAS STRUCK AN ANGEL OF THE LORD!!! BEHOLD, AS I PRESENT MY OTHER CHEEK! RARRRRG!”

“WARDEN!!! I AM VISITING THIS PRISON NOT TO DELIVER MORE LAWBREAKERS UNTO YOU BUT INSTEAD TO WASH THE FEET OF THE INMATES HEREIN! LET ME PASS, AND RELEASE MY BASIN AND CLOTHS FROM YOUR SECURITY HOLDING AREA!”

Pfffffff.

Not… quite what I meant, but it’s so dang hilarious I’ll allow it.

Sometimes I do, too. But part of that is because before I got into Sentinels, I was a big fan of Secret World Chronicle, and one of the characters there (named Seraphim, of course) WAS a generic angel-type, and there were… odd things in her demeanor.

Yeah, I would categorize the relevant populations here as not only whether they’re Christian as a professed faith, but part of the “Christian” (i.e. Western) world. Anyone who grows up in most parts of the Americas or Europe is going to have a pretty decent understanding of what the Christian faith consists of, even if they weren’t raised in it. (And there are plenty of atheists, Jews, etc. who have a stronger academic knowledge of Christian history and mythology than many practicing Christians!) So I think Christopher conflated “Christian” with “Western.”

And of course there are plenty of different interpretations of Christianity, even beyond Protestant/Catholic. A Southern Baptist would write Fanatic very differently from a Presbyterian. I actually don’t know how much knowledge of Christianity the average citizen of Japan or Saudi Arabia has.

You’d be surprised. I mean… look at Xenogears…

But also keep in mind that Fanatic is probably one of the oldest human heroes (yes, calling her “human” is a stretch). IIRC, one of the people who was an age peer of her at the convent when she was a teenager, she later met up with as an old woman. Think of the stereotypes of older nuns from comedy from before the 80s. Or George Carlin’s “Classic Gold” collection when he talks about the Catholic school in New York in the 40s and 50s, and the liberal for the day priests and nuns vs the old school ones. Fanatic didn’t feel that off from that.

That said, I think Adam and Christopher did a better job of the religious angel of Fanatic when they talked about the supporting cast. The older nun, the man in the ruined church, and other stuff.

For me regards Catholicism in particular, it’s two things.

One, we consider faith in God to be a start rather than the end-all and be-all. It was not unusual to be expected to attend Bible study as a child and by that I honestly mean actual study, and you were also expected to behave in a way that made you grow closer to God. It’s why the Sacraments are a big deal, because they’re codified things that help you form a bond with God, and why things like charity and public works are often considered a life goal.

Two, sanctity of life is a big thing. I know that abortion gets all the spotlight, but it’s actually a whole package of sorts with Catholicism, in that they’re also often anti-death penalty, pro-healthcare and especially finding cures for usually terminal diseases, pro-gun control, pro helping needy people afford food and shelter, etc.

So the upshot that is a character who’s all about blind unquestioning faith, puts little effort into living according to the teachings and Sacraments, and killing evil people, is all about as opposite from the modern ideal Catholic as you can get.

Interesting that on the cover Apostate has no scar…

It’s part of his first appearance and he doesn’t have the scar until a later encounter with Fanatic.

I don’t often post (and especially don’t often necro-post) solely for the sake of saying such content-devoid things as “I like this!” - even though, apparently, people on this forum enjoy expressions of pure positivity, without requiring that there be some sort of interesting idea to discuss or anything like that.

But in this case, I simply had to say that the opening Garfield digression of this episode is one of the funniest things I’ve ever heard. I think this is probably my favorite episode of the Letters Page since I stopped having the time to listen to them the day they went live (said timestamp corresponds either with my becoming employed at the start of May 2021, or with the Writer’s Page where the Neighborhood Watch were the featured villains, making my eventual listen of that episode very confusing to someone like me who hasn’t read the Guise Book, in which C&A introduced the villain team of Polly Hedron, and Diana Duplicatrix or whatever her name is, and the third one who I completely forget, as I also forget this team’s name).

The hilarity dropped off when their digression evolved through Foxtrot into the most popular musician of 1977. But if podcasts carried a price tag, I’d already have gotten my money’s worth before this dip in interest value. And then we get into the actual subject of the episode! It’s like going to a movie and seeing a really awesome trailer for another movie, where the movie I actually bought a ticket for might still be good but I’ve already gotten my ticket price’s worth of entertainment from the trailer. So I can very easily forgive one minute of boredom while they talk about fire exits and silencing your cel phone, before the show I originally showed to experience can finally begin.

SHE HAS NO WINGS!!!

How am I only noticing this now?

Oh right, the episode explains it. I’m still dumb for not noticing the last time I saw the cover tho.

I’ve often said that Fanatic is to Christian Mythology as Wonder Woman is to Greek Mythology; to complement that, Wonder Woman riffs on Greek Mythology while also paralleling certain social movements of the day…Golden Age is the women’s wartime homefront, Silver Age is hippieish, Seventies gets more Charlies Angels, the modern version is all feminist, etc. I feel like Fanatic paralleled more of the counterculture instead of these mainstream things; the metal aspect is the strongest such example of taking Christian Mythology and very much NOT playing it straight. The early Christians wouldn’t recognize Fanatic as aligned with their beliefs, and the ancient Greeks, who were very much not hippies or feminists, wouldn’t vibe with Wondy even if they were faithful worshippers of Hera and Athena and such.

Doctor Bee had one question per polycule triad of Ennead members. Every three gods have two ‘ships’ (barges?) between them.

Don’t judge a comic book by its cover…