The Letters Page! Episode 2 Discussion (The Wraith)

Appropriately, there was something in this episode I didn't see coming -- namely, who really killed Spite. I didn't think Parse had it in her to do something like that, but I suppose if anyone could see the outcome of not wasting Donovan, it'd be her.

The revelation about who's on the Collateral Damage card makes her foil incap art make a lot more sense, too.

It was interesting to hear how the publication history of Sentinel Comics vis a vis the Wraith lasted through the Cold War; and I'm also intested in who the original Freedom Five were, since apparently it did not include Tachyon and Absolute Zero. (My money is on Tempest as one of them, making his Freedom Six appearance a mythology gag).

We do have an instance of what looks like an early Legacy and Blackfist showing up on Hall of the Terminarch so maybe Fixer back in his heyday was part of it.  

I really hope we learn more about Black Fist.

I'm sure we will.  The two character episodes have provided a lot of back story so far and I would be surprised if they stopped doing that as the beginning of them.  

I was thinking the same thing. If it was him, it might indicate that the original five members each represented a different genre; standard Golden Age heroics for Legacy, mystery \ detective for Wraith, war \ army for Bunker, and kung fu \ blaxploitation for Fixer. That might mean that the fifth would be someone to do with magic possibly. Looking forward to the Freedom Five episode to find out!

Early Legacy? How are you determining when it happened in his timeline?

Also, Spite is a dick.

"Oops." Indeed!

Well we see Blackfist for one and second the art style of Legacy is similar to the cover seen on the second page of the Hero Challenge Acheivements document.   At the least it's early in Legacy's publishing history.  

Given that The Enclave is an homage to Kirby's style I don't think that art style alone is an indicator of age. I attribute the fact that Blackfist is in the Enclave to time travel rather than an adventure that happened with him during Legacy's early days, but can see why it might be that too.

I would find it very odd if it was a more recent event.

I enjoyed them exbounding on the history of Wraith's comics, and how they told more about her main plot-points and such.

The whole 'Mainiac Jack' thing really caught me off guard, and it was one of the highlights of the episode for me. I'm surprised they used a character from sooo early in her history and used him in that way...

In that vein, Tempest would represent Sci Fi comics – and he'd fit with how they describe the Freedom Five's early comics as dealing with a lot of aliens that would later become the Gene-Bound troops. Tempest could've served to infodump on the various races they encountered month to month before the reboot turned them into the minions of his nemesis.

So my guesses for next week is either Baron Blade or Progeny.  Blade because he seems to be the most long standing villain and is from the base set.    Progeny only because they used his music for the outtro.  

I think they used the same outro for the other episode(s)? My money's on Blade, but they could pull a fast one on us.

They said it was one of their earliest villains, so I figure it's either someone from the base set, or someone they've mentioned they designed really early on but didn't add till later.

The Cult of Gloom is one of the ealiest villains/groups I know of. I'd be surprised for that to make episode 3 over Baron, but the cult was a large part of early mystery comics even before the introduction of Gloomweaver as the figurehead

Imma still put my money on the Ramonat family, just because they seem to be tied in so closely to everything else. (Is it just my headcanon that Fyodor was involved in the research project that created Proletariat?)

Iron Legacy led an army of Spike clones?! Wraith turns into a cold hearted vigilante queen?! Holy crap I need to see that show!

Lots of good stuff this episode.

I need these shows. The Collateral Damage thing, Maniac Jack, and Parse thing all threw me. I love it all! Except Parse taking Wraith's kill. Not cool, Parse.

And I would be surprised if they did only the Wraith before Blade. Imho, Blade is episode 2, or he comes after all the FF.

He should've been episode 2 though.

Does it count as kill-stealing if Maia wasn't going to kill him?  Parse only killed him because the Wraith couldn't.

Now I blame Maia.

With this episode, I gained a whole new appreciation for the world that Christopher and Adam have built.

First of all, while the Legacy episode seemed like it was about the character Legacy's backstory, and answering questions about the character, this episode seemed like it had much more to do with the history of Wraith's comics. Christopher kept talking about how when she appeared in this book, she'd face such-and-such adversaries, and that evolved into the books that appeared during the Cold War... It really drove home how Christopher and Adam didn't just invent characters. They invented a whole set of comic publishing histories. We've heard hints of that for a while, but listening to a description of all the evidence really blew me away. Maybe it's just because I haven't been into comics in the past, and so I focused on the superheroes and the plots depicted in the game, instead of thinking of their depictions through the various "ages" of comics. This is quite the feat of world-building.

Second, I'm impressed anew with the original take they have on superhero characters. Describing the Wraith in a vacuum like this would have been really difficult for me - I would have had a lot of trouble avoiding a word that starts with "B" and ends in "man!" I suppose, after spending 5+ years steeped in their own characters' lore, of course it would make sense to Christopher and Adam to describe the Wraith this way. But, still, it reveals where they have homages and where they have original takes on what drives this sort of character. I really appreciated the Wraith episode for further drawing distinctions between her and...that guy...and using the character of the Wraith to describe these comic archetypes and the motivations driving her.

B-man?  Like Randy Beeman from Animaniacs?

Are you talking about the Bman known as Beetlejuice?

That’s definitely the Michael Keaton role he was refering to… though I believe in the sentinels world his name is Beetleguise.

Beetleguise Beetleguise Beetleguise!

"A devious villain"

It is Blade.

What?! Oh, hey!

How goes the fight against Evil?

Mixed results at times.   

Those times being between 12:00:01 am and 12:00:00 am.

So no Interlude this week, huh?

I thought the drops from Freedom Five Annual to Freedom Four Annual for one annual was related to Wraith. If not Wraith then who?

Also the Iron Legacy event is when Iron Legacy crosses over into the main timeline. So when in the comics do we ever see the Freedom 6 fighting Iron Legacy, like Wraith becoming the Chairwoman and fighting a bunch of Spite clones.

Freedom Four Annual number one that we was actually made is just missing Absolute Zero who would join later on.   Based on what was discussed there was a Freedom Five before FF Annual #1 that had Legacy, Wraith, Bunker, and two other unknown characters at this time.  

In regards to the F6 fighting Iron Legacy there is a Freedom Six One-Shot referenced on a few cards in Iron Legacy's deck and that issue is also listed with the bios of the F6 variants in the video game.   

Right. In the Legacy issue we learned something that wasn't clear to me before: The Freedom Six apparently defeated Iron Legacy in their timeline, who then attempted to invade the main timeline.

Yeah, I had figured it was a situation where the Freedom Six were seeking help from the "main" timeline's heroes.

I must've missed that part of it.  About what time in the episode did they say the F6 defeated Iron Legacy?

My bets for the two "lost" heroes are Haka and Tempest, to make their apearance in the barbeque photo an easter egg for very long term fans of the comics.

Makes a lot of sense; also a little bit of a thematic tie that, when Legacy becomes Iron Legacy, Tempest reunites with the group to take him down (doesn't work with Haka, sadly)

Nice catch!

It's mentioned very much in passing: I don't think Christopher and Adam realized they were doing a reveal. But 35:46 of the Legacy episode, there's a reference to Iron Legacy being " ousted from [the] other world", meaning the Freedom Six timeline.

They say Iron Legacy got ousted but I'm not convinced it was the F6 based on that.   Maybe OblivAeon caused him to be ousted. 

This was before the OblivAeon event. You’re right that right there they don’t talk about the Freedom Six specifically beating him, but it seems implied to me. In the Wraith episode it certainly sounded like that Wraith gave up her ideals but successfully achieved the goal of defeating Iron Legacy.

Thanks for the info on the Freedom 6.

Regarding the Freedom Four Annual I was referring to it was not Issue #1. Looking at Absolute Zero's cards Cryo Chamber has the flavor text:

Flavor-Text: "Better bored in here than dead out there." - Ryan Frost, Freedom Four Annual #2

 

This is likely the issue of Freedom Four where Absolute Zero joins, then we have the Freedom Five Annual starting at annual #3.

 

In fact Onboard Module Installation in AZ's deck has a quote from Freedom Five Annual #4

Flavor-text: "What to wear, what to wear..." - Absolute Zero, Freedom Five Annual #4

 

But then on Isothermic Transducer the flavor text is back to Freedom Four Annual #7

Flavor-Text: Tachyon: "But the laws of thermodynamics have more to do with-" -- Absolute Zero: "Look lady, all I know is fire gets all weird around me." - Tachyon, Absolute Zero, Freedom Four Annual #7

 

Since Tachyon and AZ are mentioned and I can't see Legacy missing, I assumed Wraith but I suppose it could be Bunker instead. I can't find them now but I'm pretty sure Annauls #6 and #8 are both Freedom Five so its just one Annual that drops back to Freedom Four.

I'm not really sure where you are trying to go with this.   Freedom Four #1 was just missing Absolute Zero from the main Freedom Five we know and he would join shortly after.  His first appearance is credited as Freedom Four Annual # 2 in his bio so it would make sense shortly after that issue it would just become Freedom Five Annual # 3

Christopher and Adam have said a lot of time shenanigans always comes back to OblivAeon.  So actions of OblivAeon direct or indirectly have been occurring throughout the SotM canon.  

I'm mainly excited to see what happens with Chekhov's Hairdryer. I wonder when we see it again.

Also I could not stop laughing when they did the voice for it in Imbued Vitality.

OblivAeon is the new nanomachines!

I think what he was pointing out is that it's suddenly Freedom Four again with Annual #7; meaning after AZ joined up, it got bumped back down for some reason.

Gotcha.  It wasn't very clear to me.   If anyone left for a bit I could see it being Wraith due to the explanation given that she thought she felt for a while she was doing the team a favor by helping.  

Yeah, of the five, she seems like she was the least invested in the team until Spite killed her friends.

It's also possible she needed some physical and/or mental recovery time after Spite was dealt with. Of the Freedom Five, she seems the most vulnerable to injury, since she lacks superpowers or an armored suit of any kind.

Keep in mind the incap art for Wraith. It seems that she was assumed dead for some period of time.

Or it's just a shock-cover. You know, a comic book cover designed to make you thing "Oh my gosh, does the Wraith die?! I gotta buy this issue to find out!" But it just ends up that she fights in a graveyard or something…

Yeah you guys got what I meant about Annual #7 dropping down to Freedom Four for some reason. Sorry for not being clearer.

I did confirm the #6 and #8 were both Freedom Five so it was only dropped for one Annual. (#6 is first appearance of Nightmist and #8 is on Legacy's Bolster Allies)

Anyway I sumbitted the question: is the Wraith is related to the Freedom Five becoming the Freedom Four, if it is, is it related to her leaving the team, or her "death"?

And if its not related what story arc is the grave scene a part of?

We will get a better answer to this as I assume they will do a full episdoe, or at least a shorter interlude episode, on the Freedom Five as a whole post the individual character episodes.

Agreed. I actually submitted a question about any temporary roster changes, also…