Character Deaths

So I was going through older topics and I found this one http://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/dead-heroes-and-incapacitated-sides-2734 about hero deaths.

This interesting line to me was this one "So from what I remember, it was mentioned by Christopher in a podcast interview that 3 heroes die in the main Sentinels timeline."

So forum veterens is this really something Chistopher said? Is it still true or has it been retconed?

I'm going to make three assumptions: 1) That this is legit. 2) That the Sentinels Timeline is referring to just the Card game. 3) That we are just considering the main timeline not the Iron Legacy timeline (where additional hereos have died, Bunker and Unity at least).

At the time it seems that Legacy was considered one of the 3 and while he does die in an alternate timeline the Legacy of the main timeline not only survives but is around for Tactics as well.

So who are the three? Here are some choices.

1) Mr Fixer, we have confirmation with the Dark Watch Promos that he did die. As is common in comic books... he got better. "The hero team known as Dark Watch has gone through a lot. They were originally formed by Expatriette, Setback, and NightMist who were seeking to uncover the truth behind the events of the death of their friend, Mister Fixer." http://greaterthangames.com/content/sentinel-tactics-dark-watch

2) Legacy, he is still a possibility as I believe there was a comic arc where he did die (like the incapacitated side of his card) but the Iron Legacy arc changed that and he ends up surviving. Very comic bookish. "In this timeline... (Other stuff)...Years later, Felicia Parsons was the best prepared to accept her father's death at the hands of Baron Blade." http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gtgames/sentinels-of-the-multiverse-shattered-timelines/posts/357311

3) Ra, the human using the powers of Ra seems to be different than Blake Washington in Tactics, did Washinton die and that is why someone else has taken up the staff?

4) Scholor, this has no basis behind it but it seems from his promo that things are getting worse for him. "John Rhodes has learned far too much and seen too deeply. He now acts as a gate between reality and the infinite void. He cannot protect himself, but can he protect his allies from what is yet to come?" http://greaterthangames.com/content/promos-and-oversized-cards-and-more

5) Someone else?

Let me know what you think, or debunk this podcast rumor.

The problem is that the Sentinels Multiverse, like so many comic book universes, has many states that could be considered death, but maybe not.

Legacy dies, but not in the main timeline.  Does that count?

Something happens to Nightmist, and she turns into a cloud of mist (or leaves one behind, or something).  Does that count?

Ra is replaced by another Ra.  We have no idea what the mechanism behind that change was, whether that required the death of Blake Washington or not.

Unity was replaced by Golem Unity, which may or may not actually be her.  But in the future, and possibly not in this timeline.

That said, I think that the three best candidtates for "three character deaths" would be Mr. Fixer, Nightmist, and Ra.  But it's hard to say for certain.

I think the statement was 3 characters from the base set will die. I think we can pretty much assume Blake Washington is one of them, considering there is a new Ra in Tactics. I also think Legacy is counted, as he was supposed to die in this timeline, but thanks to Iron Legacy arriving, it prevented that death. Also continueing with Tactics as a reference, neither Grand Warlord Voss or Haka have made an appearance. It has since been confirmed that Voss will appear, but we would not recognize him. Considering Legacy most likely counts towards the death count, it is possible that Voss also dies where he is banished to and gains a new body or even he gets his old body back that has been transformed in some way. Also, Haka was confirmed to be able to live long enough to be at the FInal Wasteland. Does this mean he does not die? We'll just have to keep waiting to see.

It's also entirely possible that this has changed, as far as I can recall, he has only ever said it once. Which occured on a podcast somewhere within the first year of SotM's release. Probably even prior to the release of Tactics. Perhaps Legacy wasn't originally going to be as injured in the Iron Legacy fight, allowing him to go to the Wagner Mars Base, where he would die instead of Young Legacy. But with them getting approached about Sentinel Tactics, but they wanted Legacy in it more than they wanted to stick with Legacy's death, so the altered the story to fit it. Same with Voss, perhaps he was intended to die when he was sent, but his fan base kept him from dieing. Though he instead becomes horribly disfigured in exchange for his life. 

Based on incap art all three versions of Legacy end up dying.   Grandpa Legacy has been shot, Finest Legacy is holding a dying Young Legacy in his arms, and the main version Young Legacy is holding a dying Finest Legacy.   I think Grandpa Legacy dying though is the only one that still occurs in this main timeline whereas the others were avoided due to changes caused by Iron Legacy.   

For some reason I really don't think Blake Washington is dead. He's definitly not visible by the time of Tactics, since there is obviously a new Ra. But something's always bothered me about this new guy.

The Staff of Ra gives three things to it's holder: the power, knowledge, and the personality of the god of the sun.

If the new guy posesses the Staff of Ra, shouldn't he have gained the knowledge and personality of Ra as well as his power? Yeah he knows how to use it's power, but I don't think he has the boundless knowledge of the Egyptian hero. And he certainly doesn't talk like Ra either. Where are these other 'gifts' of the staff?

I think he doesn't have these gifts because Blake Washington still posesses the spirit of Ra, meaning he's still alive out there somewhere.

Ra (Blake Washington verison) should have known what was coming when the Ennead arrived but his past knowledge only ended up in his initial defeat.   Ra was gone for a few years before Beardy Ra came back to finally take down the Ennead.   While some stuff may be passed on I think the Ra persona on a whole is pretty arrogant about what he can do and doesn't contemplate about his past knowledge that much.   Blake Washington also had the advantage of being a well educated Archealogist whereas with the new Ra we don't know what his background is.   

I will agree that I don't think Dr. Blake Washington is dead and I'm pretty sure Christopher has said so at one point.  I'll see if I can find that.   

Would be much appreciated if you could. :)

Only piece I've found is a confirmation that it is a different person being Ra in Tactics.  I know at the least we don't have confirmation that Dr Blake Washington is dead.   He is like schrodinger's cat in Tactics.  

Thoughts On Ra:

I did a Footenotes piece on Beard Ra and what the historical context was behind the name. Long story short is that there is a death/resurection theme and a specific journy Ra takes into the underworld to die only to return reborn. Ra's initial defeat at the hands of the Ennead was a figurative death for him which sent him away for many years wandering the desert. Beard Ra was the resurection. A mucher stronger version of the Ra we previously knew. But what should interest everyone is the middle part that's missing, the details of the journey that led from the metaphoric death and resurection.

My current hypothesis on this journey is that like in the history books, our Ra also travels to the underworld (which we know exists in the Sentiels Universe thanks to the Tomb of Anubis environment deck. Anubis is seen with Ammit and the scales which weigh a pure heart). To become reborn into something more powerful than he was to save his friends Blake Washington likely had to give something up. A trade, if you will. Resurection is never without cost, a theme Christopher has played around with multiple times with Nightmist, Fixer, Operative, Pike, Spite, ect. The question becomes, "what did Blake have to give up?"

Thoughts on Dead Heros:

1. Blake Washington (Ra): I think this is the "gimmi" of the group.

2. Nightmist: The miststorm in Tactics and the Dark Watch bios do not make it sound like Nightmist made it out unscathed.

3. Scholar: The short sentence bio for the new Scholar of the Infinite promo is fairly damning of Johns fate. 

Now, Ronway might be correct that the quote wasn't that "3 heros will die from the card game" but that it's "3 characters from the base set will die". I do not remember the podcast well enough. But if he is, the list is as follows:

1. Blake Washington (Ra): Again, this is a "gimmi"

2. Voss: We know he was banished from this realm by Nightmist. Does that count as a death? Not sure, but it's the closest thing we have that we know about from the base set.

3. Haka: The only character from the base set to never be mentioned or seen in any current Tactics art/flavor text. If Ronway is right about the nature of the quote, then this will have to be true as a confirmed death (but again, I'm not sold that it is)

I always like reading your theories Foote.  

In regards to Haka, he is not the only character from the current SotM heroes who hasn't been referenced in Tactics so far.  Tempest ,who is in the base set, isn't in any of the artwork or quotes seen so far that I recall in Tactics but is mentioned here about Ra's creation https://boardgamegeek.com/article/18389808#18389808 as possibly being used instead of Ra.  I think Haka is just waiting for a Prime Wardens release.  

Tempest makes an appearance on Baron Blade's Regression Burst.

Well my recollection is bad then.   

From the art that Adam drew for the new version of Geb ,he looks like a different guy as well, perhaps the Ennead did some ritual on Ra  but it backfired and there was some sort of musical chairs situation and now one of the guys who was in the Ennead is Ra and the guy who was Ra is now  in the Ennead

Is there anything online of this new Geb art? If so, could someone provide a link?

That’s an awesome theory, padcurtin!

There is only the YouTube video http://youtu.be/xXT9qIW4Ljs

Golem Unity is not the same as Unity, but rather a new 'being'. See for this the incap side of Termi-Nation Unity: Sentinel Comics Wiki - Sentinels of the Multiverse;

Though, I do not think Unity dies somewhere in the story as she is also present in Tactics.

Im surprised there isn't more talk about Termi-Unity's incap art and how it fits in with what we know about Golem Unity. It's certainly Footnotes worthy material, but I havn't quite found a the right strings to tie it all together just yet. I think the most interesting thing about that incap art is that it directly challenges an assumption I had at least that Iron Legacy was the only character who crossed from his timeline into the main timeline during that story arc. Makes you wonder how Golem Unity did it and if maybe there were others to cross over as well.

Well only a small amount of folks have gotten the cards that I know of and if I weren't looking at other sources I wouldn't know what it is until my copy came in later this week.   

All it means to me so far is that Termination Unity must come from the Timeline that spawned Iron Legacy.  

This is gonna get off topic now, but any inclination that base Unity's incap is directly tied into this somehow?

I don't know about "must". As if she was from the same timeline then that would mean Absolute Zero and Bunker are also from the same timeline. Considering we see Bunker's death on Iron Legacy's Flying Assault and he is wearing his original suit, I would think Termi-nation Bunker is still the main timeline. While it is possible they rebuild his suit, but I would think they would enhance it and give ti a btter design. Also if you take Freedom Six Absolute Zero we can still see the face plate of him, which the incap of Termin-Nation Absolute Zero we can plainly see is destroyed. Once again, they could have rebuilt the suit but why wouldn't they enhance it?

It's possible for sure.   She is isolated in a plastic looking cell on her original incap and it's not clear where she is at so they could have tried some further experiment later to recreate Unity as a robot.   That robotic version of Unity was still missing some spark that the real Unity they had and so they needed to transfer her conscious over to it. 

Given what we know about the Tactics timeline I can certainly see the Golem version of Unity in the "core" timeline being something the government/military tried to create to make more... controllable heroes.

It's not uncommon for events from a Bad Future timeline to get some kind of nod in the main "fixed" timeline in other comic 'verses. So I could definitely see something like Golem Unity showing up in the Iron Legacy future, the heroes avert it, then later on, in separate circumstances, another Golem Unity surfaces.

Interesting. If all that is indeed the case (I don't own the ST set), then the only way that this makes sense to me is the following:

After termination Unity fought Chokepoint, she is caught by an unkown organisation to create Golum Unity. Golum Unity is subsequently send to the Iron Legacy timeline to assist the heroes in battling Iron Legacy. 

Could be, but why would this organisation spend time and money in this timeline do that when Iron Legacy was already defeated when he crossed into this one? Doesn't make much sense right?

It could be that Golem Unity, and the scene depicted on Termi-Unity's incap, just so happens to occur in both versions of the timeline. I think before this art was released it was sorta assumed that Golem Unity was stricktly a by-product of the IL timeline (sorta like FrightTrain becoming the new Bunker) and maybe in certain ways that can still be true, but the notion that a Golem Unity was going to be created in both timelines regardless is somewhat newer (at least to me). 

Also keep in mind that incap art depictions are never good things and depict heroes in serious trouble. Where the IL version of Golem Unity turned into a hero post the death of the real Unity, there is no such promise that this version will become good as well. In fact, since the real Unity is alive, the Golem will never have the chance to think itself the real Unity and might have a different outlook on life as a result. Not to mention that it is also possible that the creation of this timelines Golem was inspired by the IL version but created for a more nefarious reason or purpose.

I don't think Golem Unity is Unity, and I don't think she was made by Unity.

I think this ties into something that happened in both this and the Iron Legacy Timeline.

Incaps don't always look forward, for example Expatriette's incap is where whe loses her eye, it is the birth of her character as we know it.  Termination Unity's incap could be showing a time in the past when she was abducted, and the Termination mission could be about resolving that storyline.

Termination could be an effort by Unity, Bunker and AZ to go destroy the group that made these things and Golem Unity could be one of them.  In this theory the rise of Iron Legacy would take place after they were created, but before Unity, Bunker and AZ got together and went after them.

Must was too strong a word for this case.  I see it just as likely.  Reading other comments I like the idea that Golem Unity came to be even outside the Iron Legacy timeline.   Knowing what we do with the govt wanting to control the heroes in Sentinel Tactics , I could see ithis Golem Unity being part of Project Ironclad.  Based on what Chokepoint does who came out of that project originally I could see them wanting something similar under their control.  Since I have to imagine the Termination team is successful overall Chokepoint may not be available for their continued project.  

Changing what I wrote here.

The ironclad project created the Bunker suits, and raised Chokepoint, who could never do enough to satisfy those who ran the project.

The ironclad project would definitely be interested in Unity, but she was with the Freedom V, and at this point they aren't public.

It is possible that Golem Unity is a creation of the Ironclad Project.

Another possibility is that Omnitron-IV is the site of Unity's incap.  I mean who out there is better equipped to control Omnitron-IV than the Ironclad Project or Chokepoint?

I would also feel pretty confident about a theory  suggesting that the Ironclad project is heavily involved in this Golem Unity. I have a strong feeling that the "secret bunker" in Ft. Adamant is also where Unity is being held in her base incap art. Would make sense if this all ties together.

Also something to note, the new and improved Sentinels team is also training at Ft. Adamant as part of a hero project. If Adamant is part of some shady stuff, makes you wonder what they are doing with the Sentinel team as well right?

I wonder if this story line is building to the last expansion, specifically afterwards when the government tries to crack down on their own heroes freedom.

If this program is the start of an attempt to replace heroes, or build a force to oppose them, they could even be responsible for the robot heroes you see Legacy fighting in Tactics.

Just from the fact that it’s on the incapacitated side of her card, I think the creation/transfer of Devra into Golem Unity was a sinister thing. So what happened to Golem Unity to make her then ally with the heroes? Perhaps this is why Golem Unity has to hurt herself to deploy Unity’s golems.

She doesn't have to, but she can.

I took the HP to Golem power as meaning she spawns them from her own parts. Detach a hand, turn it into a Bee Bot, etc.

Yeah, she can do that.  She doesn't have to, but she can.

That isn't Biomancer's work?

Also Tempest's Incap side shows him having lost an arm, yet the only Tempest we've seen with one arm is in the Freedom Six from Iron Legacy's Timeline. So that's an example of a main timeline character with an IL timeline incap art.

I don't have Tactics though, is Tempest in an of the art, one armed or otherwise?

Also there are other ways he could lose an arm and get it back in the main timline, because that's what happens in comics.

Legacy and Young Legacy both have incaps from different timelines.

Yup, Legacy's looks to be from the timeline where Young Legacy steps up as Legacy, Young Legacy is from the IL timeline.

Didn't Christopher mention once that all the incap art happens, just not in the same timeline?

Yeah. I'm presuming Sentinels comics probably has as many Elseworlds as DC and Marvel would, which would be plenty of fodder for art of heroes getting harmed/killed while remaining safe in the main timeline.

(Now I really want to see a Red Son-esque Legacy, or maybe a The Dark Knight Returns for Wraith)

There are a few art assests coming with VotM concerning Wraith that might be right up your ally.

Another possibility to the similarities between Unity/Golem Unity and Tempest/missing-arm Tempest in the two timelines could be how time travel / timelines / destiny works in the Sentinels multiverse. Maybe some things are simply meant to be. Tempest loses an arm no matter if events are barreling towards Iron Legacy or not. Golem Unity comes into being even if Legacy and Young Legacy both survive.

The details vary but there are certain "fixed points" that always occur.

Maybe???

There are assuredly some fixed points in the Multiverse. Just ask Visionary.

I'm surprised there has been no discussion of Termi-nation Unity's frontside.

She is clearly older than original Unity and she is wearing a name tag or security badge of some sort. My eyes aren't great and I don't have a magnifying glass handy, but I think that tag has an "R" prominently displayed on it. If I'm right, then Unity either temporarily worked for, or more likely infiltrated, Revocorp, who we've long had suspicions about.

What if taking down Revocorp and the events in Rook City are what caused the government to get more concerned with controlling super powered individuals. Sure, alien threat, couldn't do much about it, but then they attacked a major American Corporation. They got lucky it was a sinister plot, but they went in with little evidence and caused a lot of damage. What if next time they are wrong?

That sort of thing.

Also, I think Termi-nation AZ is the first time feel I could guarentee an incao happened before the flip side, since Chokepoint destroying his suit is what would prompt AZ to fight without it.

P.S. In regards to Devra not dying. Brain Transfer might have had the potential to leave her body brain dead. But being older... hmmm, can anyone tell if this Unity is older than Golem Unity? If she is then something delayed the creation of Golem Unity and that could make all the difference

It's a pass for the Eaken-Rubendall LaAboratories, where Tachyon works. It's also an all access pass, which is a little concerning given it's Unity.

Dang, one theory out the window.

Has anyone considered any connection between Chokepoint and Golem Unity? Something about the way Chokepoint heals just makes me think of the way Golem Unity is 'constructed'.. Chokepoint was held in Fort Adamant, and Original Unity's incap art is probably at Adamant, from what we know of them so far. Just a random thought that crossed my mind, but the more I think about it, I'm sure there's a connection.

I'm not sure about that, my current theory actually places it with Biomancer creating Golem Unity.

Chokepoint has the power to do it, but not the mentality. Her quote to swift bot was how being forced into a form with arms and legs was not "its truth", so the idea of her making a robot that builds other robots doesn't fit

I'm with chaosmancer on this one the similarity between biomancer's skeleton on his incap and golem unity on her incap is striking and she seems to bring complement to his skill set he would want.

Any connection to Termi-nation Unity?

Interesting theory linking Biomancer into all of it though. Can't say it doesn't peak my interest. Wish we had more to go on.

Also, could it be that Biomancer created Golem Unity, or was it the one who created Biomancer? Judging by Biomancer's incap art he either fooled the heros into destroying a decoy of himself, or that Biomancer was just a creation by someone/something else all along. 

Piqued. Related to piquant and the idea of relishing a taste.

(Sorry… pet linguistic peeve. I keep trying to release it into the wild and it keeps coming home.)

Couldn't my interest be at the "highest 'peak'" though? /shrug.

That would work if you phrased it as, "My interest peaked," but that implies that your interest has subsequently waned. Used as a verb acting directly on your interest, it has to be "piqued."

Source: Am an editor.

I think Biomancer "created" himself. His bio states that he kept himself alive for the last few hundred years by using his proccesses on himself

Yep, pique>peak is what we linguists call an eggcorn, which is a reshaping of a word or phrase based on a mishearing to a new word that still makes semantic sense.  See:  The Eggcorn Database » peak

Yeah, "piqued" is definitely correct in this context. I'd noticed it too, but I notice a lot of this kind of thing and can never be arsed to say anything because people would probably get annoyed (though I'm never quite sure why that is - if someone tells you you've done something wrong, can't you then start doing it right, rather than if they don't tell you, so you don't know you're doing it wrong and so keep doing so?) ;).

It depends how you phrase it. If it’s a criticism, it can be seen as an attack, but if it’s constructive, the person may take it into consideration.

The trick I learned is to start constructive criticism with “I” and make it a positive statement. Such as, “I think the right word is…” rather than “You used the wrong word, you should have…”

My favourite one is "from the gecko" instead of "from the get-go".

Modern Life is Goodish anyone?

Of course!

Ok, looked up Biomancer's incap art. Wow. That is the exact same look as Golem Unity's incap. But my next question... why the hell would Biomancer have robotic parts?

Who says that the Biomancer being incapped is actually Biomancer and not some clone he sent out to deal with the Heroes?

See, that's the thing. He isn't a technology-based character. He manipulates flesh. I'm having a hard time accepting that he sent out the robot, if that's whats going on in the art. The look on his face is a 'gotcha'-type smile, which makes the robot theory more palatable, but who made it? I don't think it was Biomancer.

It's stuff like this that makes my brain ache. I love it.

It seems likely that Biomancer makes or uses robots as that explains the art in Inspiring Supertonic which I assume shows RepliBlade.   I'm not sure how else we get that scene as there isn't anything else with Baron Blade showing him making Life Model Decoys.

I agree.  he manipulates flesh, but flesh alone does not a body make.

I don't have my cards, but there is a card in his deck showing him creating a flesh doll. He's "wrapping" the fleshy bits around a skeleton made of stel. It isn't unreasonable that his dolls are robotic skeletons wrapped in flesh. Cyborgs or androids, I don't know the proper term.

Back to the original topic, the ARG confirmed Ra's death.

And those of the Ennead, to boot.

Well that itineration of Ra and the Ennead is gone.   We know a new Ra shows up in Tactics and I would surprised that a new Ennead doesn't show up eventually.  

we know for a fact a new guard of enead shows up in tactics. We saw Adam draw art depicting some of them in a twitch show back when Akash was announced as being part of the 2nd wave of tactics. 

That's right.  I'd forgotten about that stream.  

How does Ra die?

You find out by reading the Tim Cosing pages/panels!

http://sotm.wikidot.com/sotm-arg

Go read all this stuff, there's tons of character/universe lore in it, you will not regret it.

It's okay, I found out today in London when Paul showed me his tablet with all the images on it that got discovered during this giant massive forum-puzzle thingy that I missed, so I've read all the things now, from the picture thingys :).

So is that death of Ra relating to him becoming the Horus of two horizons or the death of Blake into a new Ra for tatics?

The latter. Ra did the Horus thing way before he faced off against Oblivaeon along side the Ennead and was killed.

Because Blake died, when Ra returned in Tactics, it was because the avatar of Ra choose a new host.

Oh. That makes me sad since Ra is my favorite charater to play as. At least they aren't make death the temporary thing that it is in all other comics.

Welcome to the forums!

Ra is my son's favorite to play as as well, I haven't been able to tell him Ra's dies in the story yet.

We have two confirmed deaths so far:

1. Mr. Fixer

2. Ra

When you do tell him that Ra dies, be sure to include that Ra was the first person to hurt the big bad that no one thought could be hurt. Surely that would make him pretty happy.

Then take his candy from him and run away.

But to be fair, Mr. Fixer is resurected in the main storyline. Regardless, he is my second favprite character in the series. It seems like being my favorite is a curse haha. Here's hoping Chrono Ranger makes it out alive.

He does...more or less...

He ends up more mechanical for what I have seen. That is unless I am missing something.

Specifically, you can read about him post-SotM here: https://greaterthangames.com/content/for-profit-characters

Welp, the KS update confirms another death - Nigel Lowsley, aka Infinitor.

It made me happy.

Course, I still want a heroic Ennead deck so I can at least play out that fateful (and fatal) charge.

While Ra remains, playing Excavate will never feel quite the same again.

At least Excavation isn't a card that is needed to be played too often. 

I love it myself, re-stock the heck out of the Environment deck.