The Dreamer's projections: a glimpse of the future

So I started thinking about the Dreamer's projections.

It occured to me that the "Dark Hero" was a bit strange.  After all,  Vanessa (as the dreamer) was only 6 years old!  Legacy was a shining figure of goodness, and so it seems like it would be extremely strange for the Dreamer to have such a sinister version of him lurking about. So I started thinking about the projections in general, and why she has such specific nightmare creatures in her head.  

See, the Dreamer is unique.  Her brain actually exists in two places at the same time  in the head of the 6 year old girl, and the head of the adult Visionary. And they are both powerful psychics.  So what I think is happening is that the Dreamer's mind is taking the Visionairy's knowledge of the future, filtering the terrifying bits through the mind of a 6 year old, and distilling them into these projections. I actually think that each projection represents something or someone VERY specific.

Take the Dark Hero.  I think that this is Iron Legacy, as understood by someone who had NEVER met or seen him, but HAD seen (or knew about) Legacy. The future as described by a child who didn't really understand all of the context.

So, with that in mind, I started looking at the other projections.  

Dark Hero: Like I said, I think that this represents Iron Legacy.

Grotesque Arachnoid: Given the Argent Adept's involvement, and the eyes, I think that this might represent Akash'Bhuta.  "Earth spirit, sort of, kind of a primordial force really that can animate and create limbs out of the environment", boiled down to a kiddie version of "A scary big thing, with lots of arms and eyes!"

Illusionary Demon: I think that this represents Apostate.  A demonic thing, but its not quite real.  Maybe just the tip of something bigger that is dangerous in and of itself, but which is concealing the truth.  Its an illusion, or a lie, covering up what it really represents.  Foote has had some great ideas about what could actually be going on with Apostate, and I think that to a child, "Illusion demon" might be a good way of distilling it.

Granite Oni: this one is a bit more complex, but I think that it could represent either the operative, or the force that Fixer and the Operative are both contending with.  something immeasurably strong and incredibly tough.  this could be the operative herself, as this is a good description of her (and she can be pretty demonic), or it could potentially involve Zhu Long as the Dragon.  Something that you need to entangle and ensnare (like with a hoist chain), since confronting it directly is dangerous.  

The Whipacorn: Taking a look at Mainstay's incap, it seems like he is being confined and imprisoned.  Though  I don't have the card in front of me, I recall it looking like he was being held on a spaceship.  I'm wondering if he is being taken as a slave, or as a potential gladiator (possibly ot fight in the Arena seen on one of Parse's cards...)  Certainly, if you wanted a gladiator cantidate based on looks alone, Mainstay would be a good pick.  

The whipacorn could represent one of the alien slavers.  

Treacherous Ape: the Ape's laser pistol makes me think of the guy on Blackout, and I wonder if the circus could be another representation of a gladiator pit/arena.  A circus of the Roman kind, with the ape representing a guard who kept people in line?

Tooth Fairy: I've suspected for a while that we would see the Old Gods come back, possibly related to Atlantis.  Tempest (in silver shadow) certainly seems to be wearing druidic garb and carrying a blade.  I've speculated about possible Matriarch links to gods, and links in Atlantis to dragons.  I think that the tooth fairy is a representiation of myths and legends coming to back, but not like the good, cute, disney-fied versions.  and ot a kid, I could see that coming out as a Tooth fairy....that eats your teeth.  Basically, think fairies done by Guillermo del Toro.

Toy Master: I think that this represents FILTER.  someone who sits back and collects tech, pulling strings and moving puppets around.  It could be a specific person Iinside FILTER.  It might also represent the V5, since one of his toys is a train...

Heh, wow - great stuff as always, Braithwhite! And intriguing. Makes me even more interested in what is to come...

Another option for the Toy Master, sitting back and controlling all of the things - Mr Pike.

Dude I was JUST thinking about the Dreamer the other day and I am SO glad you brought her up.

Visionary and her younger self sharing a psycic link is brilliant, and your Dark Hero example totally sold me on this idea. Just brilliant.

I have some slightly different takes on some characters, though I think all of yours are great.

Macabre Spectre - Spite. Even the flavor text is from Wraith. (Notice how Dark Hero quotes Legacy, Oni quotes Fixer, Adept quoted on Arachnoid, and Illusionary quotes Fanatic. Theres a huge pattern there fitting in with your theories, so lets run with it) Macabre means dealing with death or injury, and who do we know that comes back from the dead even more horrifying than before? A spectre indeed!

Whipacorn - I really like your interpretation, but with the Rainbow and Volcano, I wanna try and connect it to Dawn somehow. But then theres the flavor text to consider. If we wanna keep the patern above, it could represent LaCapitain cracking the whip for her crew (since Mainstay is quoted) or possibly when Set was dominating Horus in slavery. Looking at the volcano, the approaching storm, and all the other elemental things in that picture, the Ennead could be whats being alluded to here. Visionary has a few run-ins with the Egyptian side of things, even got sucked into the underworld presumably. Maybe it was there she saw Ra and Set.

The Ape - Tachyon is quoted here. Might his have something to do with Matriarch? Both are heavy on the inteligent animal theme, and both are up on the "weilding a power artifact" theme as well. (She also has that toy monkey...so theres that too).

Tooth Fairy - At first, I wanted to say that it was related to the Final Wasteland deal, with the whole "legendary creatures turned evil" deal. But then Unity was quoted, and you know how I like to shoehorn in patterns. Why stop now? First off, Fairys are cute girly things that go right up Unity's thematic ally. The Tooth Fairy is doing something important though. Its eating organic material. Why is this important? If you don't think Unitys nemesis consumes or transforms organic material in a foil to Unity consuming/transforming metal, then idk what you think her nemesis could possibly be. Obviously we dont have a nemesis to compare to, so thats a shot in the dark, but I like kinda like the connection.

Toy Master - I think Toy Master is a much bigger character than some one-off projection, though thats just a hunch. I mean, have you ever really looked at the incap side for Idealist? Her face is being ripped off in jigsaw pieces. The Toy Master could easily be an analogy for Chairman Pike or Baron Blade. The quote from Visionary suggest that the Toy Master is a very big threat and one that she wanted to avoid. We see some landscape art of a very weird place (look through the Sentinels Deck or Friction). There is a cartoon like area shown a few times, which could involve Toy Master in some way. (And for Playtesters, check out those Beacon Proofs once more for another relevant piece of this point).

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Other Dreamer related thoughts:

The cross-over comic event Nightmare World deals with the Dreamer sleeping still in her coma. But I am very unsure that Nightmare World concludes with the Dreamer actually waking up. I think her flip side is a seperate storyline that happens sometime after the events of Nightmare World. Why? First off, we see a walking Dreamer beating up on Skyscrapper who at this point in the story hasn't even been introduced (as far as we know). We also see Scholar offing support to the Dreamer herself in her awakened state, but that could be at any time.

Funny thing, there wasn't a single mention of the Dreamer in Visionarys Tactics read-up on KS. This far into the future, with Legacy's hair greying and Young Legacy now Beacon and Unity all grown up, you would think that a Young Visionary would be running around somewhere with massive powers. Maybe Dreamer doesn't survive into Tactics? Maybe the concluding events of SotM see the Dreamer die somehow, and thats what effectivly cuts off her ties to all the other timelines (as per the Tactics bio). If they do share a strong psycic connection, the loss of one could cripple the other in various ways. Also could explain the speed up in her mental deterioration.

Vanessa has a stuffed unicorn. It's her protector. Stands to reason her mind would parlay her protector as one of her projections.

What unicorn?  While dreaming, she has a teddy bear (with an interesting thing in its belly), but no unicorn.  And turning something that she considers a protector into a nightmare?  that seems weird.

I think that Foote is right on about the Macabre Specter and the tooth fairy.  

The person talking on the flavor text for each projection seems really important.

For the toy master, I totally think that its FILTER relatewd, specifically because vanessa (which, given the context, seems the older vanessa) says that it is what she most wanted to avoid- and given her upbringing as part of the secret project (which is likely FILTER related), it seems reasonable that the director of project Cocoon would factor into her darkest fears.

All little girls have stuffed unicorns.

It's actually an ape, the thing in front of his belly is a shard. Doesn't that sound a lot like the Treacherous Ape?

Also, I will point out that besides the Whipacorn and Tooth Fairy, the projects actually appear in the deck of the hero their flavour text is from. Sacrosanct Matyr, Thokk, Throat Jab, Lightning Reflexes, Demoralization, Hoist Chain, and Counterpoint Bulwark.

This makes me think that Tooth Fairy and Whipicorn might break away from the above pattern Braithwithe hinted at. Whats your thoughts on all this Ronway?

(A shard? Hmmmm…where have I seen a shards before…)

huh.  I always thought it was a teddy bear, but yeah.  thats an ape.  

What I think happened is this:

Dreamer falls asleep.  Drags all of the heroes into a nightmare world that consists of visions of the future, reinterpreted as toys, monsters, and projections. Because each of the heroes are going to be involved in the future scenarios, they get taken to the specific "visions" that most directly involve them.  As they overcome them, they get back together, helping each other out of the nightmares, until ultimately the dreamer wakes up.  I'm not exactly sure what happens when the dreamer wakes up, but Fixed Point suggests that something unpleasant is involved.  

My guess is that she confronts the leader of Project Cocoon.  Given how afraid the Visionary is of the Toy Master, it seems like that particular confrontation is important, possibly important enough to become a Fixed Point.

So having each hero witness the specific vision of their future seems like it would be important, and having them respond ot it seems similarly important.  It could also be interesting HOW they respond.

Legacy responds to the dark hero with confusion.  This could be hinting that part of the tragedy of Iron Legacy is that he never really thought he could fall so far, or that he never thought about what could happen to him.    

Wraith comes out swinging against the Spectre.  She goes for precision strikes (IE, throat jab) that keep it from hurting anybody.  I very much like the Spite analogy. 

Mr Fixer avoids direct combat with the Oni, choosing to tangle it up in the hoist chain.  If this is a vision of his confrontations with the operative or some Dragon analog, then it is telling that he can only contain it, not directly defeat it.  Or perhaps containment IS the only way to defeat it.  

The Adept stands fast in the face of the Arachnoid, facing it head on and protecting himself from it.  This might be because he recognizes it AS a dream.

Fanatic fights the demon.  because she is fanatic, and no one has ever accused her of overthinking things.  Which is kind of her problem, really.  the particular danger with her is that she takes things at face value, and has problems with villains that lie and decieve.  If anyone has the card handy, I'd be curious to know how Fanatic is dealing with the Illusionar demon in her deck.  Is she fighting it?  containing it?  banishing it?  It is possible that she learns something about dealing with deception because of it, but I don't have the correesponding card at hand.   

I have no idea why the Treacherous Ape is a tachyon problem.  I thought it was carrying a gun, but it seems to be a wooden stake.  It could be someone pulling funding for her Laboratory?  Or a competitor?  I don't necessarily think that it involves the matriarch, but Tahyon has made a lot of enemies over the years.  Its the "Treacherous" part that makes me think that it is someone she trusts that is going to backstab her.  there are hints that the lab is going to be destroyed (AZ's incap, F6 AZ's art).  It could also represent the figures (dimly) seen on tachyons incap- we still haven't met them.  

Unity and mainstay's visions are very ambiguous.  I suspect that they involve the future scenarios, and that perhaps we "see" those situations reflected in their incapacitated cards, rather than the deck itself.  I could see someone imprisoning Unity to try and replicate her powers.  Perhaps it represents a nanotech threat, a Grey goo scenario?

 I thought it was carrying a gun, but it seems to be a wooden stake.

Look at that green energy blast it is firing. Then look at every appearance of the ape and see if you can figure out where the blast is coming from.

Braith, Fanatic is fighting the Illusionary Deamon in Sacrosacnt Martyr to the best of my knowledge. 

I always assumed it was coming from the stake as well. I don't think you woulda said anything if that really was the case though. I'll have to relook through some stuff when I get home

I am also of the Opinion the Dreamer doesn't wake up during the Nightmare World arc. I have a feeling that doesn't happen till much later in the story

That makes an interesting idea, then.  A sacrifice of self to burn away the illusion and reveal the truth.

I won't know until I get home, but the wiki says that it is on Lightning reflexes (which I do remember as featuring energy blasts).  I'm guessing that it looks like a wooden stake until the ape uses it, at which point it is revealed as a crystal.  

Hmm... Let me go get my cards, and I'll look at it...

Could it be a Scholar analogue? He's fat, hairy, holds a stone?

So the ape IS firing the beam, then? My guess would have been that he's actually ABSORBING the energy, rather than firing it. The only other green energy I can think of is Argent Adept's Polyphoric Flare.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what you mean by that. It would appear that it's just coming from the shard in its hand (if it were purple, rather than green, I might think there were a connection there, but it's not...).

There's also the fact that he never seems to be HITTING anyone with it. He's always shooting it up at an angle. Could that have some significance?

I just had a thought.  What if it isn't a crystal?  

what if it is something that LOOKS like a crystal, but is in fact a hiding place?  

Here's my thinking.

Dark Visionary tried taking over Visionary pretty soon after her arrival. Specifically, while the Visionary was worn out and resting in her telekinetic cocoon.  The cocoon, by the way, looks exactly like a purple crystal.  

Eventually the visionary recovered strength and cast her out.  Don't know how long it took.  

What if Dark visionary went looking for easier prey?  the dreamer woudl be a perfect cantidate.  Young, untrained, healthier than the visionary.  I'll bet that DV hid herself in a telekinetic/telepathic cocoon (since she doesn't have a physical body, as such), and made as if she was a protector or an invisible friend.  then at night, started filling the kid's mind with horrific visions of the future.  the goal being to break her down so that DV could move in without a fight.  the crystal in the ape's belly ISN'T a crystal.  its the Dark Visionary's version of a Telekinetic cocoon.  Same shape as the Visionary's version, but DV's signature green color.  

that is why the ape is so treacherous.  It styles itself as a protector, and then goes after people when their backs are turned.  Its the ringleader of whole thing, and is wrapped in layers of protections.  In order to really cast her out, the heroes have to win free of their specific visions, then wake up the kid and get her to recognize the threat nesting so close at hand.

I think DV has always been inside of Visionary right up until she cocooned herself during a fight with Gloomweaver, and popped out to save the day (so to speak). But with that said, if Dreamer is getting all of this second-hand-future visions and is filtering them through her imagination, that implies there is some kind of strong telepathic link that Visionary shares with her younger self. It could makes sense that DV has access to this connection as well and could be the cause of the distress befalling Dreamer. 

The Dreamers character card depicts the same color change dynamic that Visionary/Dark Visionary have. Her front side shows the healthy light purple telepath energy, and when she awakens, its back to the deep purple and bright greens of Dark Visionary. 

But back to the Ape…after Christophers comments and McBehrer's reaction, I think Christopher is implying that the blast is not coming from the wooden steak. I think the best evidence is on Lightning Reflexes were Tachyon is not looking at the Ape, rather she is looking in the total opposite direction. Then theres Violent NIghtmares where the Ape (if the shadowy figure guy in the background is indeed the Ape) isn't shooting ANYWHERE near our escaping heros. Why is that exactly? Is is absorbing energy blasts all Dr Gero style? And toward what end?

In the Dark Visionary's bio through the ST Kickstarter, it talks about how DV just needed to buy time to grow stronger, and it fed off of Vanessa's stress and pain brought on by her timejump. The battle against Gloomweaver was the stresser that free'd DV. What if the Ape is acting in a similar fashion? What if it is gaining and absorbing energy until there is enough to awaken the Dreamers full potential? This could be DV's plan the whole time, why she latched on to Vanessa in the first place during the Time Jump, to get another chance to acomplish something she couldn't do herself in her own time.

The awakened Dreamer could very well be the young Dark Visionary and the condiut for something larger… The child is the center of this whole thing lets not forget.

Although it doesn't really fit anywhere into this theory, the Ape = Scholar is more than interesting. If the Ape is acting as a sort of protector, redirecting damage from others to itself, well that sounds a lot his Alchemy Redirection. We also see an awakened Dreamer on Flesh to Iron, Scholar by her side. Since the quote is from Nightmare World, I'll assume the picture and flavor text are from the same event. They both are protectors, both are large figures with an item of power. But why the deliberate connection with Tachyon and the Ape? And why would the Scholar's memory evoke a projection anyway? We see Dreamer attacking Skyscrapper, and we see an alchemy symbol on the box for WotC. Maybe that answer is still on the horizon?

I'm looking at lightning reflexes again, and honestly I can't be positive I'm seeing it right. It's more strange than I thought especially in the contex of this thread. 

I have two theories. 

1. One Beam is coming from the top right toward the Ape, which in turn is being blocked with a shield. You can see that shield form around the Ape against the comet style look of the beam.  The beam may or may not be being absorbed by the shard, but it seems that the glow of the shard is seperated from the glow of the beam. 

2. There is a green beam coming toward the Ape from the top right. But it is being absorbed by the shard, which then redirects a yellow beam toward tachyon (or back through the green beam)

Im not sold either way. Next time you guys break out this card and take a look. What is going on in this picture? 

I think it's option 1. However, look at Viokent Nightmares. The ape, presuming it is the ape, is holding something up and has a simialr beam effect. Howeve, he's not looking where the beam is going to/coming from, but at chrono-Ranger. Perhaps the beam is broadcasting power to the Ape?

Maybe it's the child's fear and pain, being beamed at Dark Visionary and absorbed. It's not the sort of thing you'd want to (psychicly) get in the way of, but Dark Visionary uses it to get stronger and reinforce her hold. 

Or, contrarywise, it could be Dark Visionary firing a blast of negative emotions at the child's psyche (and everyone involved) to bring her down faster.

I think that in "Flesh to Iron" the scholar is actually daring Dark Visionary (inhabiting the woken dreamer) to rummage around inside his head and try to find something to scare him with. She feeds off fear and pain, but the scholar has dealt with his demons, and doesn't break easily. 

Lets talk more Art examples for a second:

• The toy Ape is on the front side of the Dreamers card, but not on her awakened side
• The front side of that card also has an interesting boarder. Its Black dots and Purple dots coliding around the edges. Notice the flip side has a clean cropped boarder
• The Purple glowing orbs on the front side surrounding Dreamer and the Green glowing orbs surrounding the toy Ape and the green shard

I think the Ape has something to do with actually getting the Dreamer to awaken, hence his lack of presence on the flip side. The green glow of the shard and ape, along with the darkness thats surrounding her on the boarders as she sleeps has all been absorbed into the girl for the flip side of the card.

Lightning Reflexes vs Violent Nightmares

• Ape absorbing a Green Beam and a Yellow Beam respectfully
• DV's signature color is greens/blacks, but her incap side has her exploding with yellow energy

For what its worth, the Ape seems to first be seen in the issue Freedom Five Anual #4. Pretty early on, considering I think I have seen those anuals go as high as the mid-teens (12-15 range). Both LReflex and Treacherous Ape reference that issue in flavor text. 

Could DV be blasting the shard as a way to empower it? To move her conciousness from an unhealthy host (Vanessa) to a younger and healthier body (Dreamer)? Idk. I feel we are still missing something.

And honestly, I am still not sure at all what I'm looking at with Lightning Reflexes.

Because I love how this discussion is going, here's the cute lil' guy you're all talking about:


No, not the floating psychic girl. Her fuzzy friend. Here's his first appearance in the card game:


Hopefully that will help you see what's going on. Here's his specific card:


I can tell you that the thing he's holding is not a wooden stake. Also, because this image was referenced, I'll post it, too:


Ok. Enough images for now. At least now you all have the reference material in front of you. 

Carry on!

Christopher you are the man, thanks. The larger image of LReflexes is sure helpful (Though my brain still can't seem to look at it right. Hopefully other eyes will chime in here).

And of course its not a wooden stake! But if it is what I think it is...

Quick question, I guess there is no way you would tell us where young Vanessa got that gem incrusted stuffed animal? Might have to be a question for the letters page.

So the ape is holding a crystal, probably the same one as on the stuffed ape. And I think the crystal is a variant of the philosopher's stone.

ETA: What if the ape is the scholar? They have similar heads if you shaved his mustache and took out his ponytail, and that would explain why the ape is called treacherous 

Maybe the Treacherous Ape is the Scholar's nemesis.

I think that the crystal is Dark visionary's telekinetic/telepathic cocoon.  

1. its the same color as Dark Visionary's powers.

2. Its the same shape as Vanessa's Telekinetic cocoon.  while embedded in the ape doll, it is surrounded by the same kind of telepathic bubbles that appear when Visionary uses her powers.

3. Cocoons are a huge part of the visionary's story (and the dreamer's, and Dark visionary).  She is in "project cocoon", visionary gets taken over while in her cocoon...  its all about emergence and change.  

The adept mentioned (in grotesque arachnoid) that her dreams were "tainted by another world".  Dark visionary comes from another world (or version thereof), where she made much different choices.

Is the Ape opening a rift with the shard in Lightning Reflexes that is unleashing that energy blast?

The differences between Lightning Reflexes and Violent Nightmares is just not jiving for me either. Not sure how to reconcile the color differences, though I imagine DV's incap side plays some role.

I keep looking at the picture expecting something to just click for me. Understanding that picture is going to open other doors.

Continuing that train of thought...

I think that Dark visionary is limited by her choice of host.  Or at least shaped by it.  In this case, she bound herself to the ape doll.  So her travels in the Dreamer's mind (and out as a projection) is limited by that choice.  My guess is that DV is out and about sowing discord (as a projection), while the core of her stays close to the dreamer and worms its way into her psyche.  

Once she can assert control, the dreamer wakes and the doll is discarded.  However, because the dreamer is still a powerful psychic, DV can only maintain control as long as the dreamer remains scared and unsure.  this is why all of the projections are so (intentionally) scary- they are meant to intimidate and prevent the dreamer from confronting the actual issues and possibilities that they represent.  horrible future visions that she has seen (Like Iron Legacy), and traumatic events that she has been through (Like Project Cocoon and (possibly) the Toymaster).  

Salvation comes in the form of the heroes confronting the projections and defeating them physically, showing the dreamer that they can be overcome.  It also comes in the form of the scholar, who reaches out to her directly (on flesh to iron) and shows her that horrors can be endured.  

So, any significance with the Ape being at a circus/carnival?

Maybe its not a rift, or a shield.

Could it be the outline of a cape? Is it projecting something besides an energy beam? This is gonna drive me up a wall I swear

Look at Tachyons right arm. There is no green glow on the right side of her arm (or left side looking at the picture). This tells me the beam is coming from well behind her and to her left. I had originally thought it was flying over her head and she ducked (good reflexes), but dont think that energy blast is anywhere near her.

New thought on Lightning Reflexes:

The Ape is shooting the beam at Tachyon, its not being shot at the Ape. The shard is creating a triangle shaped rift (pointing down) from which the beam is coming from. The circus tent is being blown backwards because of the forward force of the beam.

If thats not it I'll eat my hat.

I have a theory that the ape is a gift from the head of project Cocoon.  A "congratulations on the birth of your daughter" gift, sent anonymously.  

The Visionary got her out of the program before she was born, but I'll wager that a psychic appearning from the future, with the same last name as the girl's parents, determined to get the as-yet-unborn child ouut of the project... that might raise a few "keep tabs on this" flags in whatever organization ran project cocoon.

And what better way to keep tabs on her, than to give her lovely plush ape that she'll sleep next to every night, and take everywhere she goes?  Given the level of tech that they have access to (in that they are actively endeavoring to create super-soldiers), adding a few hard-to-find widgets on a stuffed toy seems like it would be easy.

come to think of it, why not make it obvious?  Its not like "Tummy Crystal" is going to set off any particular alarms.  Especially not with new parents.

And ESPECIALLY if you have the crystal emit low-level waves of psychic energy, encouraging the baby to sleep (and trust the ape).

The Ape appears as early as Freedom Five Annual #4 judging by flavor texts.

Visionarys first apperance? Freedom Five Annual #16

Chrono's first appearance is Freedom Five Annual #10 and is seen in the Nightmare World series.

In other words, the Dreamers projections have been croping up in the comics for a long time, well before we even meet Visionary, and long before Dark Visionary ever takes over Vanessa. The strange thing is, Visionary must have been around during that time even though she never appeared in the comic, since she made the time jump before the Dreamer was born to get her parents out of Project Cocoon.

The timeline for these comics is strange indeed. Does Nightmare World happen before Visionary's apperance? Trying to imagine seeing the Dreamer in the comics before ever meeting Visionary seems weird, so I'm guessing Nightmare World happens after FFA#16.

Visionary has that precognitive vision of our heros being enslaved by Voss, and I'm guessing that is the major plot point of the WotC expansion. Once we get back to the Thorathian homeworld (presumably) we also see images of the Dreamer awake and kinda fighting Skyscrapper. But that Dreamer no longer has the Green Energy glow that we have come to asssociate with the awakened Dreamer and with Dark Visionary (same can be said of Fixed Point which I'm guessing depicts when she first wakes up from her coma in the hospital). But this would seem to indicate that Nightmare World takes place before the WotC story. 

But when does DV take over Vanessa? Her fight with Gloom where DV takes over has to take place after FFA#16, and considering Glooms first apperance was FFA#6, this fight might actually take place around the Skinwalker arc (since that was a much later Gloomweaver story). 

If we are gonna run with the idea that somehow DV is whats corrupting the Dreamers thoughts (as evidenced by Argents flavor text in her deck), then the conclusion of Nightmare World should end with the Dreamer being "saved" somehow (just like the card game). That most likely entails purging DV from this reality as to not allow the Dreamer to be corrupted further. This is could be whats depicted on DV's incap side. In that sense, Nightmare World would have to happen after the apperance of DV.

The dreamer's bio indicates that the Visionary got the parents out before the Dreamer was even born, so my guess is that before the Visionary ever did anything with the F5, she was busily arranging the departure of her parents from project cocoon.

similarly, Dark visionary's bio mentions that Vanessa was feeling the effects of the time jump after about a year- that seems like enough time to get teh unborn Dreamer out of project Cocoon, and then move onto other things.

We know that the dreamer didn't fall into a coma until year 6 (or thereabouts), with the projections moving into the real world at that point (again, from the bio).

I'm thinking that DV happened fairly early in terms of the overall plot- maybe 3 or 4 years in.  After dawn/voss, but before the dreamer's coma.  

As for the projections: 

Theres a possibility that The Dreamer's projections started showing up in the heroes dreams in advance of the dreamer's coma.  This could explain how things like the ape appeared to Tachyon in advance of the events of Nightmare world.  

I think the coma has to come first before projections start showing up. This means the Dreamer has been in a coma for a long time through the comics (since the Ape appears in FFA#4) even if we didn't see her or knew of her yet.

Gloomweaver didn't even show up until FFA#6, so that puts DV happening well after her coma since Visionary has to show up in the comics first, then fights Gloomweaver, then turns into DV.

I don't think Nightmare World starts with her going into the coma. I think the heros have been battling these things intermitently through the years and at some point Argent Adept figures it out these are dreams. I don't think they would have known about them being dreams though without knowing about the young girl, and I am betting they wouldn't find out about young Vanessa without older Vanessa's help. And if Nightmare World ends with the "saving" of the Dreamer (thats a large presumption but I think a fair one), DV would have to be around for that. If not, that may mean DV isn't the one tainting the dreams, which is too good of a theory not to run with at this point given all the art clues.

Foote and Braithwhite, you two should star in your own sitcom or do a youtube show done in the style of History Channel program conspiracy theories but with SOTM. I would totally watch that.

Given the number of questions we've both submitted to the letters page, I expect that we'll have new conspiracy materials soon enough...

You know, I'm kind of getting an Evil Con Carne vibe from it. Like, the CRYSTAL is in charge; the ape is just a host. I rather like the idea that Dark Visionary (or some other form thereof; maybe even the Dreamer's own psychic hitch-hiker) is in the crystal, and is the one firing the energy beam, and is also controlling the ape (so as to carry it around.) The projection is the Dreamer's interpretation of her ape friend as her protector, but the crystal (which perhaps originated from the toy) has since betrayed her, hence the name "Treacherous Ape."

I'm just going to link to this post for my thoughts on the ape and the crystal. It's not as indepth as others have posted here but it is an alternative theory. posted months back I might add!

https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/ape-ing-around-3723

I've been looking at the various cards, and I've come up with a (tentative) timeline.

1. The visionary comes from the future.  Along the way, she picks up the psychic hitchhiker soon to be known as "Dark Visionary".

     1a. Dark visionary is described as a version of Vanessa that "made very different choices."  The choices themselves are unknown.

     1b. did Dark visionary ditch her own body in order to hitch a ride?  Or does she exist only AS psychic energy?

2. Visionary gets her parents and the dreamer (not yet born) out of the program known as "Project Cocoon".

     2a. Part of Visionary's creation was the injection of the fetus with compound PSY-200.  it is unknown if the Dreamer was injected with this compound        before the rescue.

     2b. The Dreamer is born without any explosions of psychic energy.  She appears normal.

3. Visionary begins fighting alongside the F5 (and presumably on her own).  She is seen clashing with Baron blade, Dawn, and has visions of the Thorathian       invasion, so presumably she was involved in that as well. 

    3a. The rise of Dark visionary specifically takes place during a ritual with Gloomweaver cultists, before Gloomy had fully materialized.  Dark Visionary        was able to banish gloomweaver.  this suggests that it is the nightmare version, as opposed to the Skinwalker (as the Skinwalker is a zombie and has a        physical body, it is presubably much more difficult to make him go way with the wave of a hand).

4. Various Heroes start seeing projections.  it is uncertain when this starts happening, but it is likely before the events of the "Time Cataclysm".  

    4a. I think that "Nightmare world" is the equivalent of a massive crossover event.  Many heroes fight projections on their own, then figure out that they     are all connected and converge on the Dreamer.  

    4b. It is unknown if the Dark Visionary is still in control of the Visionary's body.  

    4c. The visionary meets the "Toy master" projection in "Mind over matter".  If this follows the crossover event pattern, Mind over matter would take           take place before nightmare world.  The visionary talks about it being thing she wanted to avoid...but is this DV talking, or the Visionary?

5. IF the Dark Visionary is in control of the Visionary's body, she would have access to the Dreamer (as she would know where she lived), as well as access     to the heroes. She could manipulate things behind the scenes.

    5a. It is entirely possible that the treacherous ape is the Visionary.  this could explain why that projection appeared to the F5 (who know her best, as         she has fought alongside them).

    5b. The ape could represent the Visionary fighting the Dark Visionary from within- unable to re-take her body, but able to provide clues as to the nature     of the threat.  The out-of-place ape (that resembled the Dreamer's stuffed toy), and the green crystal that resembled the Telekinetic Cocoon.  The           fact that it attacked in a burst of green emnergy (which is EXACTLY how the emergence of Dark Visionary is described from the Telekinetic Cocoon) 

6. During the Nightmare world, the Dark visionary transfers to the mind of the Dreamer (signified by the glowing green eyes on "The Dreamer Wakes")

    6a. Best guess is that while the Dark Visionary controls her waking body, the Dreamer has gone walkabout in other people's minds- the only time we            actually hear her talk is on "Projected Paralysis", which is during "Nightmare World # 5". In that one, we see the Dreamer walking around, but emitting        purple energy (as opposed to the green/yellow of the Dark Visionary).  This might be her "core" self, lost. 

    6b. "Nightmare World #5" appears to be the last comic of the crossover, as that is when we hear the dreamer talk, and see the Scholar protecting her       (with her eyes open and glowing green).  

7. The Dreamer reclaims her mind, casting out the Dark Visionary (because of the presence of Omnitron X, it seems possible that this is during the Nightmare World crossover).  This is a "Fixed point", and by throwing out an extradimensinoal time traveling psychic entity, the Dreamer shatters the walls of time and space, creating the Time Cataclysm.

Does anyone see any major holes in this?

The heros start seeing projections a few years before Visionary first appears in the comics. (Ape = FFA4 and Visionary = FFA16) So I would switch 3 and 4. But really, the only projection that is seen outside of the probable timefrime of the Nightmare World crossover is the Ape.

I have a strong feeling that the flavor text for Projected Paralysis and its art do not match up. Theres always "Reasons" why they choose not to line up art and flavor text, and it usually has to do with not giving things away too early. The Dreamer potentially finding her way to the Thorathian homeworld would certainly be too leading for when Shattered Timelines was released. And it totally raises questions. Fixed Point's art is probably after Nightmare World but before the Projected Paralysis art juding by the energy color of our awakened Dreamer.

I am in agreement on #7. I didn't think I would be honestly, but I think the expelling of DV could very well be the driving catalyst for the time rifts. Consider the fact that the Iron Legacy arc doesn't happen until after Nightmare World concludes. Americas Finest Legacy #81 is Legacy vs Dark Hero, which is likely around the same time the Nightmare World crossover event is going on. Iron Legacy doesn't appear until #201 of the same comic title. Iron Legacy also has to happen after FFA16 because the Visionary is present during that arc. Also consider that LaCapitains first appearance isn't until Freedom Five #650 which most likely occurs around this same time, maybe even a little bit after Iron Legacy.

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I think you are right on Gloomweaver. My idea of the timeline of events shifted yesterday night. I thought things like Moonfall and Sunrise happened really early on, but thats not the case. Moonfall at the very least happens after Visionarys first appearance and Sunrise happens right after Moonfall. Skinwalker and the Dark Watch certainly happen well past that point and most likely after Vengeance. Nightmare World happens before the first apperance of LaCapitain, and Vengeance has a quote from Seige-Breaker.

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The most likely place for DV to show up is before Nightmare World given everything in this thread. Hell, DV's appearance might actually cause the whole Nightmare World senario. I'm thinking that DV has been manipulating both Visionary and the little girl since Visionary made the jump, instilling a little bit of herself into the Ape to stay close to the girl and grow her power from the girls fears. The part thats still with Vanessa finally grows strong enough during the fight with Gloomweaver to take full control of Vanessa's cognitive functions. Thats when the girl falls into a coma due to Dark Visionary and her projections become many. I think thats why the Ape is Treacherous, because its been controled by Visionary (or at least her evil self) the whole time. As the heros defeat the projections, they defeat Dark Visionary as well (her incap side), who has turned on the heros at this point. Even though they get rid of Vanessas dark passenger, it escapes into the piece that she left in the Ape/Shard and finally takes full control of Dreamer, awakening her. This MIGHT be what we are seeing in Violent Nightmares! DV's incap has her exploding in yellow energy, which then transfers itself into the Apes Shard. THATS why the Ape isn't attacking anyone in the picture! He was hiding in the shadows waiting for this moment. Then Scholar to the rescue! But the final defeat of Dark Visionary is what sparks the Time Cataclysm as the interdemensional ties are broken in that final confrontation. 

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Mind Over Matter. Thats when Visionary runs into the Toy Master, assuming the flavor text and art sorta match up. Mind Over Matter, as guessed by the "Mapping Sentinel Comic History" thread (which is in grave need of a Vengeance Update) puts that particular issue of Mind Over Matter sometime after the events of Nightmare World. Remember at the top of the thread when I mentioned I thought Toy Master was a potentially larger character? I think this projection, a particularly nasty one at that, continued to exist even after "saving" the Dreamer in Nightmare World. I am very keen on Toy Master being responsible for Idealists Incap side, and this seems to fit that idea.

What if DV and Con are related. Both live in other things, can time travel, know what will happen at the end, try to help, etc. They could even be two sides of the same coin, a good side and an evil side.

Con time travel portal is the same color as Visionary's powers, not sure if that is related at all. I was thinking that DV was origianlly Con, trying to help out as much as possible. That didn't work out, so it takes over Visionary and switches places with her, to have a more direct role in the outome. Too much of a strech, I know, but it was fun to think it through.

Maybe the Toy Master is the kind of psychic that even other psychics fear.  The kind that can manipulate and control even strong willed people directly. Its entirely possible that he is a fellow member of Project Cocoon, a later experiment along a different path from the visionary. Or he could be from a rival organization/government attempting to create its own psychics.   

Yes. Totally. Idealist is a psycic herself, and her face is being ripped off in jigsaw puzzle pieces.

So, the Dreamer's flip side is "Roused from Slumber." Her glowing eye go from pink to green and no more teddy bear. So, who/what exactly was "Roused from Slumber"?

welll... I have this theory that the idealist isn't strictly speaking "real," so much as a girl-shaped construct.  

(copied from another thread)

I have a theory that the Idealist isn't "real" in the conventional sense.  I think that she might be a construct who sincerely believes that she is a little girl- enough so that she remains one.  Literally, she is an "idea".  

The incap might be when she figures it out...but it might not be permanent!

1. Her power source (in her bio) is listed as "unknown"- NOT telekinesis, psychic, or telepathy.  

2. In all of her artwork (except Team communication), her constructs are connected to her eyes.  I think they are more "extensions" of herself than constructs.  Her construct form is basically changing shape- the little girl remains solid, but an extension of her forms another shape.  But they are still one thing.

3. Team communication is the ONLY art where her construct is a separate thing.  I can't help but think that this is after she figures it out and goes to pieces... and then re-forms with a new awareness.  After all, you can't keep an idea down forever!  I bet as soon as they give permission, that head will coalesce into her normal shape.

4. Her mother (who tried power a machine using her) might know the truth- that she never existed before the machine, and it brought her INTO existance.  Instead of stealing her memories, she simply never had any before that moment.  

The child fell into a coma at the same time her projections started showing up in force. Its supposed to be her awaking from that psycic-induced coma.

Edit: I can't spell psychic. I'v been misspelling it all thread.

How have I never read that theory before now Braith?

I'm 110% on board with that.

Why would her eyes change colors? What if little Vanessa was an in incubator for DV, and the being being aroused is DV herself. Defeating the Dreamer sent DV back into a submissive state, waiting to come free the moment Visionary loses control.

I think something needs to be revised.

[quote=Idealist's Bio]

Across town, young Miranda Fischer’s mother was conducting experiments, using her daughter’s developing telekinetic abilities to power an infernal device she had built in hopes of bringing Miranda’s father back from beyond the grave. His death had left the widow despondent, but her daughter’s power gave the scientist a horrifying hope. However, the negative energy accumulated by the machine she locked her 8-year-old daughter into was diametrically opposed to the energy that made up Nick Hernandez, and when the machine was powered up, his howl of pain echoed the one made by Miranda. Working backwards through the pain, Dr. Medico directed the furious Mainstay to the house where the infernal contraption slowly drained Miranda’s powers. With one brutal sweep of his arm, Jackson knocked the crazed Mrs. Fischer through a wall and shattered the machine. The psychic backlash caused by the destruction wiped Miranda’s memory completely, leaving her mentally little more than a toddler.

After a couple years of caring for her, Nick and his partner Caleb legally adopted the young girl, who already thought of them as her parents. She progressed quickly, showing no memory of her previous life, and having a overly positive attitude about everything in life. However, her fathers were concerned when she began displaying signs of mental powers once again.

[/quote]

The wording doesn't enitrely agree with your theory.

1) It specifically says telekinetic abilities, at first, and mental powers after. It could be that the unknown is how exactly the machine changed her.

2) It says her mother tried to use  her developing abilities to power the machine, which would imply she exsisted before the machine and had those abilities beforehand. Not to mention her being 8-years old.

3) If she was a construct, the words mother and daughter are purposely misleading as opposed to being cryptic.

4) The name Idealist seems to be coming from her "overly positive attitude."

Thats pretty much the common thought of the last few posts. DV seems to be highly involved in some way thats for sure. I'v posted a lot about that connection here already.

Oh totally. But my money is on DV taking over Vanessa's body before Nightmare World takes place. We do not have many Gloomweaver accounts to place after the Time Cataclysm and Vengeance. It is very possible that Dark Visionary makes her appearance during the Fabric of Despair storyline, which occurs before Nightmare World and could possibly occurs after Visionarys first apperance

1. the idealists power source specifically states "unknown" in her bio.  this is absolutely unique in the ENTIRE series of bios.  Every other bio has a definitive power source. this implies that something strange is going on.

2. While it mentions "developing telekinetic abilities", it is possible that this is just the closest analog that her mother had to what was going on.  It coudl also explain why the machine failed so spectacularly- her powers weren't telekinetic, and so there were complications of an explosive nature.

3. it entirely depends on the context.  Here are some possibilities:

     a. Mrs. Fischer could be the person who created the energy construct known as the Idealist, and consider her a daughter.  If she's insane enough to shove her in a machine to thwart death, I'm pretty sure she's insane enough to call her greatest creation "daughter"

     b. Mrs. Fischer could have power in and of herself.  If she is driven enough, and smart enough to build an infernally powered (IE, diametrically opposed to Dr. Medico) machine, then perhaps she is strong enough to will a daughter into existence.

     c. The accident could have created the Idealist (a machine to bring back the dead, in the presence of a being of prettty much pure life energy).  We also have NO idea if Mrs. Fischer is still alive after being knocked through the wall by Mainstay.  As such, its entirely possible that the Idealist is the one who tells the Sentinels that Mrs. Fischer was her mother.  

4. The name Idealist could indeed be because she is extremely positive.  Or because she is literally a "list of ideas"

1) I agree there is something strange going on, and my money is on how the machine changed her, so something isn't clear, not that it never was.

2) It also says mental powers when she was in the care of Dr. Medico. Strange use of the word there. If it isn't pyschic, why have psychic damage. If these are physical constructs hitting a target, it would be melee damage. What makes it psychic?

3) I agree it could be used, but other words would be much better to be cryptic without being misleading.

a. Maybe she had to use her because she needed a blood connection to her husband as well as the telekinetic powers.

b. Maybe, but no evidence either way.

c. This gets into the issue of who is telling the story, which could raise a lot more questions. However, if the machine did create her, I wouldn't think that Dr. Medico could stay around her.

Actually, here's a version that reconciles both ideas.  

1. Miranda Fischer (daughter of the crazed Mrs. Fischer) died in the explosion.

2. The machine brought her back to life as a construct.

Thats exactly what I am thinking.

I still have a problem with it. There are so many things in the story that are purposely misleading if that is what really happened.

None of this makes any sense if she is something different. I would say that the word choice here is very specific. Otherwise, we would have to go through every other bio and take out all similar words.

If the basis for this is the incap side, there are other explanations. What if the purpose of the machine was to kill the idealist and replace her with her father. The machine transfers her body's material to him. The incap side could just mean the completion of this process. The ultimate end that so many incap sides show. I just see no evidence that she doesn't really exist, and a lot that it is the same person.

EDIT: If she is a construct, how does she age? Teh experiment happened when she was 8, now she is 12.

EDIT2: Regarding "Power Source: Unknown" This actually makes a lot of sense considering the by Visonary it says "Power Source: Science." Visionary says says scienceand not "menta" becuase that is the source or origin of her powers. However, it makes sense that Idelaist is unknown, since there was no known science involved with her. Why odesn;t it say "genetic" like some other heroes? Becuase it isn't. Otherwise her mother would have the power and be able to do the experiment herself. So, it says unknown, because based on the other sources, there is no reason for her powers.

Easy.  She believes that she is a little girl.  She might not even know she is a construct.  

Her abilties show that she can manifest and shape energy inot solid constructs that can effect the physical world. Its not much of a stretch to think that her construct body re-shapes itself to conform to her idea of what a little girl is, and grows appropriately. 

If this was true, why is she dealing psychic damage, and not melee?

Even the Dreamer's listed power source is "Latent Psychic Powers"

"Unknown" seems like its important in some way

But not Visionary's.

Unknown is important, but no make a jump to "she isn't real" is a big jump.

She is dealing psychic damage, because that is the closest analogue to what is actually happening, and it may actually feature a psychic component.  She is attacking them with constructs made of belief- so they "believe" that they are getting hit, and take damage from it.  Thats a psychic attack.

I completely agree with this explanation, however, it also completely disproves the idea of any physcial construct of her powers or her body.

I agree. I'm just saying it's important somehow, regardless of the reason why.

Team Communication's art is really where Braiths theory holds its eggs

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe it was confirmed somewhere that the little girl appearing on Rhapsody of Vigor in The Argent Adept's deck is The Idealist.

As a construct? No. As some sort of invisble friend that everyone believes is really there, maybe. But even that is a stretch.

Not really.  She believes that she exists, therefore she does. her constructs attack the beliefs of others, imposing her will and version of the truth directly against theirs.  However, when it comes to herself, she believes that she is real.  She has a physical body because she believes (on a fundamental level) that girls should have bodies.  As soon as that belief is shaken, she (literally) goes to pieces. 

Besides, theres a very, very fine line between something being physical and believing that something is physical because you happen to be experiencing it.  Its like getting hit while wearing soundproof earmuffs and with your nose stopped up, standing in complete darkness.  All you know is that you experienced the sensation of being hit- you have no other indication that a physical being was there.  

In the case of psychics and constructs, that line gets even finer.

Well, it is on the wiki.

Honestly, this distinction doesn't make any sense to me. We see no where that she has the ability to create physcial things. However, even if she did, her own perception of herself wouldn't create any difference at all. Sure, she think she is real so she is real, but how she interacts with others is forcing her beliefs on someone else the exact same way that she makes a mental fist. I see no practical difference. Unless you are saying that she is only physical when it doesn't affect anyone else, so why does it matter that she is physcial. Also, we have no idea what is going on with the incap side.

Also, the Dreamer's projections seem to be beings created by her psychic ability, yet their damage is not psychic. Implying that it is possible to create physical beings, and that the Idealist is not doing that.

Toy Master deals psychic damage

I meant all of them should, not just one.

We see Fanatic holding an Illusionary Deamon. That Deamon is a construct, but it also has physical properties. Maybe I am missing the crux of this debate.

Let's take a closer look at "Power Source: Unknown."

If the source of her power was the explosion and the machine, why is it unknow. Remember, this is the source not the actual power.

For AZ, it list sciene, and he had an explosion. Vis also says science, and we know her story, NM says curse and the Occult, KNYFE has "Energy Fluctuation from Unstable Work Environment". some say experimentations, etc.

If the source of her power, because she is now something new, was that incident, it would follow that the destruction itself (like KNYFE) or the original source (curse) would be mentioned. The absence of these implies that this one incident was not the source of her power or creation.

I think that the main difference is that the Dreamer's projections have a bit more oomph than the Idealist's extensions-of-self.

The Dreamer is a massively powerful psychic at the conflux of a time/space tear.  She is putting out enough energy to rip the universe apart and put it back together again.  As such, her creations are so real that they can do toxic/melee/whatever damage.  They are infused with reality, pulled from actual events and altered by her perceptions.  To the dreamer, the nightmares ARE real.

The idealist is the memory of a girl, given form by a machine and sustained by belief.  When she creates something, she doesn't believe that its "real".  Its a construct karate robot, or floating knives, or a giant fist punching something.  and when it hits, it makes the opponent believe that they've taken damage.  

Original power source and creation dont have to be the same thing. The machines explosion could have changed her on a fundamental level and still the original source of her psychic power is unknown. 

If the idealist could create physical  things, it would reflected in her damage type. If she is really creating a fist, it would be melee, not psyhic. Now, you could argue that since it was created by her mind, that is why it is psychic, but we see by the Dreamer that it isn't psychic damage. This implies that while the Dreamer can create physical things, the Idealist cannot.

But the argument is that this isn't the little girl that went into the machine. It is something different.

I really hope someone has submitted this to The Letters Page! podcast...

How about the machine that went into the little girl?

But I completely agree. All "Power Source: Unknown" means is that we don't know the source of the power, not the actual power. I was arguing against this:

Rabit, I am 100% positive that someone has asked about both Idealist and the Nightmare World crossover.

But the argument is that this isn't the little girl that went into the machine. It is something different.

Is that the argument? In my mind she is still the same girl, but the whole thing with the machine and the explosion, that psychic backlash that wiped her memory MUST have had other unintended effects, and I think thats more what Braith is getting at. I think that connection the machine made with Medicos pure life energy turned her body into some amalgam of what she used to be a pure psychic energies. Its not the "source" of her original affinity toward psychic activity, but its certainly shaped how she can wield and shape it

Actually, that is the arguement.

In my mind she is still the same girl, but the whole thing with the machine and the explosion, that psychic backlash that wiped her memory MUST have had other unintended effects, and I think thats more what Braith is getting at

[/quote]

The only reason why there is a "MUST" is becuase of the "Power Source: Unknown." My point is that nothing could have changed and we still wouldn't know the source of the power. I don't see the need for the "MUST." In fact, if something did change, it wouldn't say "Unknown."

I'm quite willing to state that I have no special knowledge about this.  I thought (and still do think) that it was an interesting theory.  

Its possible we dont know her power source because she lost her memeory in the blast and has no idea where or when it all started. If her mom was able to build a machine that takes advantage of psychic ability (not a common skill to be sure), she might have had a way to instill those abilities as well. Her mom could have even been a part of Project Cocoon like Vanessa and Truth/Dare, but that information is just not known to our heros

This get's into a separate issue of who it is unknown to. Interesting in its own right. However, if she lost her memeory, we wouldn't know anything before Medico and Mainstay showed up. Unless her mother is still alive and talking, in which case, we should know a lot more.

Another question: Are all of the Sentinels incap side from the same incident?

Also, if you have a question for the Letters Page, don't rely on someone else asking it.

I imagined they showed up, heard a quick monologue from the mother hitting the brief talking points laid out in the bio, then gets laid out herself by mainstay. I imagine she doesn't get far past the whole "child locked in an infernal machine to bring back my husband" bit.

Their incap sides may not be from the same incident, but I kinda suspect they are all linked to Mainstay being captured. Mainstay is the rock of that group, the "center mast of a ship" if you will. When he gets captured, the rest of the team falls apart without him. Idealist looses her mind, Medico looses his body, and Writhe looses control. Details are nonexistent, but thats how I see the broad strokes.

I agree. Dont rely on others for asking.

I’m with Pydro. The game mechanics point toward mental constructs being capable of dealing damage outside of just Psychic damage. Idealist is definitely something special, but I think ol’ G-Unity is the only hero that thinks she’s made of meat when she actually isn’t. So far, that is.

Ok. One more crack pot theory that I'm just gonna throw out there sans explaination. 

Treacherous Ape = Ophidia the Deceiver

Well, as long as we are doing that, here's one:

The bear contains the remnant of the broken Fiddle, and it was meant to " hold back the tide of chaos and destruction  through their connection to the primal forces of the natural world" contained within the Dreamer…a t least it explains the green beam.

One thing that struck me this weekend is the flavor text on Lightning Reflexes, where Tachyon is telling the team to "suit up".

This implies that the attack come at a time when they were NOT suited up and ready to go, but together.  My guess is that Tachyon came across Dark Visionary doing something she wasn't supposed to do (maybe at F5 HQ, or the hospital), and then the gig was up and DV made her big move to kick the nightmares into overdrive.

It could also be a prediction of Miss Information, but she doesn't fit the narrative or the accoutrements of the ape nearly as well as Dark Visionary.     

The issue in the flavor text on Lightning Reflexes is FFA#4, The Visionary's first appearance is FFA#16. Lightning Reflexes issue is a full 12 issues behind The Visionary's first appearance, I really don't think Dark Visionary made her deput before The Visionary.

Absolutely true, but think in terms of metaphors and predictions.  

The treacherous ape is a vision of things to come, filtered through the mind of a (very powerful) psychic.  We know that the Visionary doesn't appear until FFa #16, and Dark visionary until even later.  BUT- it is entirely possible (if not outright likely) that the Visionary is around at the time of the ape's appearance, getting her parents (and unborn self) out of the clutches of Project cocoon.  My guess is that as soon as the kid was born, the Dark visionary took an interest and moved a part of herself in.  This, in turn, led to the Dreamer developing powers and projections to start manifesting.  

The visionary didn't notice any psychic powers in the baby, but how reliable of a narrator IS she?  She has someone else living in her head who has an agenda and clearly exerts some measure of control over her actions and mental state.  I'm thinking that the baby's developing psychic abilities were being cloaked from the visionary and suppressed by Dark Visionary.  ITs kind of like a dam bursting.  The early projections were leaks, and then later on the coma led to the flood.

So the projection of the ape is a herald and mataphor for Tachyon catching the (someone, I think Dark visionary), somewhere where they weren't supposed to be, doing something they weren't supposed to do.

OR

Christopher is doing that thing where the art/text don't match up in terms of being the same event, like with the Platform bot.    

Which is exactly where my potential Ophidia theory comes in. Early on in the comics before Gloomweaver first appears, the heros have been fighitng voodoo magics and cultists for a while. The Acolyte (aka Ronways face) might even have been a major player in the cult (FFA#5) before Massy takes over much later during the Fabric of Despair crossover (which is exactly where I'm thinking Dark Visionary makes her apperance). The cult seemed to be very important in early Mystery Comics as well, hence the only hex doll shaped like someone we know - Wraith.

We talked a lot about how we think DV is the one feeding off the pain and fear of the Dreamer. After all, DV does the same thing to Vanessa. But shoot guys, who else does the same exact thing? Gloomweaver, thats who. 

From the wikipedia entry on "Familiar Spirits":

According to the records of the time, they would appear in numerous guises, often as an animal, but also at times as a human or humanoid figure, and were described as "clearly defined, three-dimensional forms

The second manner in which the familiar spirit commonly appeared to magical practitioners in Britain was that they would be given to a person by a pre-existing individual, who was sometimes a family member and at other times a more powerful spirit

I think we're both well into crazy town at this point.  But I also really like your Ophidia thoery.  

With one of Gloomweaver's sides being "Nightmare Walker", Dark Visionary being a cultist makes a LOT of sense.

What if she didn't banish him?  What if she sent him to the Dreamer?

How do we know the Ape is a projection on Tachy’s card?

Same way we know Macabre Specter is a projection on Wraiths card. Its infered by its card in the Dreamers deck.

What if thr Ape in Tachy’s deck is the real thing, and the Dreamer used Tachy’s memory to create the projection?

What if the Ape was real and the Toy Master turned it into the toy version.

No reason why thats not possible.

I had another thought about Gloomweaver, Dreamer, and Skyscrapper.

We see Dreamer fighting Skyscrapper on Projected Paralysis. My hunch since Vengeance went live is that the art does not take place on Earth, since I assume our heros will be seeing the Thorathian homeworld where they eventually meet Skyscrapper.

There is a very large mini series (I think thats what it will be. It may also be a similar shorter serial to Tome of the Bizzare though) called "Cosmic Concurrance". We have already talked in this thread how the timeline of events that we can nail down point to the Dreamer being the cause of the Time Cataclysm, since Iron Legacy and LaCapitain happen after the Nightmare World crossover. The title of "Cosmic Concurrance" suggests a strong theme of the cataclysm mixed with more cosmic events in the story. This could include the Cosmitron even, and the capture and transportation of Mainstay, Parse, and others to the Thorathian homeworld.

Either way, we know Dreamer and Skyscrapper have a level of interaction, and my other hunch says that the art for Projected Paralysis comes from the Cosmic Concurrance series.

I'v started digging into bringing Gloomweaver and his cult into the whole story behind Nightmare World and its possible connections to the Dreamer and Dark Visionary. Check this out though. Profane Zealot. The flavor text calls this cultist by name. Deathrattle. Why though? Why not call him by his name instead of Profane Zealot? Even the Chosen is called that in flavor text, as well as The Acolyte. But Deathrattle was left for the flavor text. Now, take a good look at Profane Zealot. Ok good. Now, take a look at Naturalist's card Shifter's Strength. That is, for certain, an alien planet. But the villain...could that be Deathrattle? (Cpt. Cosmic's nemmy is my first bet, though they don't have to be mutually exclusive really).

I think not, considering that Deathrattle says that "The gloom of death serves the master in many ways." It seems obvious that he is talking about Gloomweaver, and I find it hard to imagine any villain being subservient to another.

I think Foote is on the right track. There has to be some sort of connection between The Dreamer, “The Nightmare Walker” and the sickly green glow their powers share.

When did I say he wasn't a cultist? Oh, you mean a standalone villain being a servant of another standalone? Thats a fair point. But what about Apostate? He is but an Emissary of the Host. I'm betting dollars to doughnuts we end up seeing more of the Host and who runs that show.

Yeah, but that's Apostate being the servant of the FINAL BOSS, and one that was (has yet to be) introduced AFTER him. It's one thing to go, "remember that guy you beat earlier? THIS guy is that guy's MASTER," and quite another to go, "That guy you beat earlier? This guy is that guy's minion."