The Last Jedi (seriously spoilerrific)

Who's seen it? Thoughts?

I did!  I was wondering if there would be an Off Topic thread about this.

I have seen it. I am too awed to actually find any legitimate flaws at the moment though.

I saw this as part of a double bill Wednesday night, it is a solid 8.5/10, full of unexpected turns and twists well worth a watch even if your not super into Star Wars

The only flaw I really noticed was that if purple-haired captain lady had just told Poe her plan, he probably would've been fine with it and that would have made things much easier.  The whole Finn and Rose mission wouldn't have even happened.  I'm just not a fan when conflict comes purely from characters unnecessarily refusing to communicate.

Ah, but she didn't need to. She was in charge. Why should she have to explain herself? Poe is supposed to be a consummate officer, and he should accept orders.

She didn't NEED to, but she didn't have a good reason not to other than an attitude of "I'm in charge, so you just have to listen to me."  It would have made more sense if there was a reason the plan had to be kept secret, like they were worried there was a mole aboard or something, but nothing like that was mentioned.

funnily enough conflict coming from a refusal to communicate is pretty realistic.

I'm really angry at kylo right now. Could he just have the descency to not want to destroy everything.

Why do you have to find flaws? You can always relate stuff you like!

My random disconnected thoughts:

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• Something this movie did really well was setting up scenes that look familiar from the Star Wars canon (like the Emperor's throne room on Death Star II - some of Snoke's lines were directly lifted from that scene) but then taking them in a completely different direction.
• As soon as Luke appeared on that battlefield, I noticed that he had the wrong lightsaber - Anakin's, which we had recently seen destroyed. I immediately thought he was doing some kind of trick. Then he withstood a ridiculous blaster assault (badass! and what shade he threw!) and fought Kylo Ren in a manner that didn't ever involve physical contact, reinforcing the idea that he was projecting an illusion. It was totally awesome, and I liked having the hints of it there in front of us.
• Likewise, the moment Kylo Ren turned on Snoke, I wondered what he really wanted. I doubted he'd turn to the light side. Interesting that his take was sort of a transcending-the-sides-of-the-Force one, that he wanted to cast aside both Jedi and Sith. But he still wants to impose order and rule.
• Rey had a kind of similar moment, when she goes into the dark side cave on the island. She went right ahead an investigated the dark side, despite Luke's uging not to. But her reaction was: meh, this doesn't offer anything for me. It's not the kind of struggle we saw Luke go through. Something tells me she will have a more holistic and confident view of the Force going forward.
• Kylo Ren, on the other hand, certainly has a more sure view of himself now than he did in the last movie. As several characters noted in this one, he has been torn apart by murdering his father in a moment when Han was showing him unconditional love.
• They did a great job showing how Luke's confrontation with Ben Solo could have been interpreted differently by each of them.
• I love Yoda's attitude.
• The lightspeed jump through the First Order ships is one of the coolest effects I have seen in a space battle.
• Luke will totally be a Force ghost. What a way to go, expending all his power on an illusion halfway across the galaxy to buy time for the Resistance fighters. And illusioning the dice from the Falcon all the way until Kylo could find them - what a troll Luke Skywalker is!
• I noticed that by the end of the movie, the Resistance were calling themselves "Rebels."
• I really wonder who those allies in the Outer Rim are...here's hoping we see Lando in the next movie.
• A couple things that might have been tough to catch: the kid with the broomstick at the end briefly uses the Force to pull the broom to him, and my wife is certain that when Finn opens up the drawer on the Falcon to get medical supplies for Rose, the Jedi texts are in there. There are some good threads for the next movie to pull from.
• I really wanted to see Leia show off some Jedi powers. And, wow, I got that.
• The scene where Luke ('s illusion) talks to Leia is immensely powerful in retrospect. In the movie, he seems to be talking about Han. But in the theater, I thought that he was talking about Carrie Fisher. And then, by the end of the film, I realized he was talking about himself, as well.
• John Williams kicks so much ass.
• They are gonna sell a bajillion of those rings.

It was fun, still enjoyed Ragnorak a lot more. There were some great part and some part I was asking the movie "Really saving space horses made it worth it? How about the slave children that are going to be punished for your actions? Or the rebel ship you are where sent to try and save! "

Was pissed off when they played bad guy music for the purple hair commander. She was my favorite new character. Her last scene, so good very creative. I am going to see it again just for that moment. And Po learns his lesson right quick after that. I hope they introduce the gray force user idea. Where the force is Balance in all things. Dark side is not evil. Light side is not good. But it is Disney so I doubt we will get a deep concept like that. Secretly I want Ray and Ben to meet in the middle and go off as a new kind of force users. Joda had a good moment. Forget the past and start your own future.

I do hope Luke was the last "Jedi" and Ray become something new.

Just gonna say one of my favorite scenes right now: R2 and Luke meeting again and R2 playing the "help me Obi-wan Kenobi, your my only hope" thing to convince Luke.

Couple thoughts:

• Nitpick #1: The X/A Wings have their own hyperdrives. The rebel fleet doesn’t need to wait for them to dock before jumping to hyperspace
• Nitpick #2: When the First Order was shooting at the Rebels, the shots appeared to be arcing. That’s what physical projectiles fired in proximity to a gravitational source do. But turbolaser batteries/cannons fire energy blasts. In space.
• Holy Crap that was Awesome #1: Luke is bad ass!
• Holy Crap that was Awesome #2: Music was, once again, fantastic.
• Holy Crap that was Awesome #3: Definitely a lot of unexpected twists in there.
• Holy Crap that was Awesome #4: Great acting pretty much across the board.
• Holy Crap that was Awesome #5: Why do I have to wait until Wednesday to see this again?

i love how your only nitpicks are thing that are scientifically inaccurate in a movie full of scientific inaccuracies.

The Force Awakens and Last Jedi look like they are both playing with projectile/weapon behavior. I mean, how the heck does the Starkiller weapon split apart the way it does in the Hosnian system? What’s with Kylo Ren’s fire-saber? What are the ventral cannons on Hux’s ship firing? There seems to be an overall mixing of the behavior of lasers and artillery shells in both movies. I kind of agree that it looks a little funny.

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This movie was trying to kill me through dehydration by crying. Almost any scene with Carrie Fisher in it (esp. Leia using the Force), Yoda appearing, Rose saving Finn, Luke and Leia’s “reunion,” all had me teary eyed.

Then they decided to pull out Binary Sunset as Luke went into the Force. Such a beautiful reflection of the start of Luke’s journey back in IV. Waterworks.

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I just… guh… this movie. I honestly don’t understand how people didn’t like it

Because people had expectations that weren't met. They wanted Luke to be more central to events/more active and less focus on the new characters.

I saw one negative reaction lamenting that so much time was spent on characterization because that's "never been what Star Wars was about" - like, they wanted the movie to have shallow characters because that's what the old ones had.

I mean, I've been trying to figure out exactly what my feelings on it are since I saw it yesterday. What I can come up with as negatives are:

• My continued disappointment with the films canonizing the idea of the Dark Side being part of the balance in the Force (opposite the Light) as opposed to being the imbalance itself, but I've been fighting the long defeat on that front for a long time due to non-film continuity additions, so this is just more of the same, really.
• The chase scene on the casino planet. I thought there were some good ideas being presented in that setting in the first place, but the chase itself... meh.
• The ticking clock being tied to spaceship fuel running out and a long slow chase - couldn't the First Order have just jumped a few ships ahead through hyperspace? They weren't running out of supplies.

Yay Star Wars!

Boo character deaths, even when they were earned.

When Luke walked out of the blaster fire I figured he had died in it, and was "force ghosting" himself to face Kylo, the reveal was better. (Did he leave foot prints? I didn't see)

The silence when Laura Dern made the FTL jump into the fleet was far more effective than a huge boom was, I was almost disappointed when the sound came back in.

I... Leia always needed more connection with the force, but that was just ridiculous.

Why did we need someone to say "salt"? Was it just to show that they weren't redoing the snow/Hoth battle from Episode 4?

Kylo killing Snoke? Sorry but that was played out. Did anyone not see that coming? (except Snoke) And why did those guards fight on? Don't get me wrong, watching Kylo and Rey fighting side by side was great, but why were they fighting?

Why did the First Order not get more ships to jump in closer to the fleet? Was that the majority of the First Order on the "death star 3.0" when the Rebels blew it up?

This was an interesting movie that was too long and had a silly side plot (Finn & Rose) that went nowhere and could have been easily exercised.

According to the people I saw the movie with, their second showing so they spent all of time both paying attention to minor details and watching my first reactions to the film, Luke did not in fact leave footprints. I think the whole salt thing was both a "this isn't Hoth" thing and the fact that Kylo made footprints in the salt and you could apparently not see Luke leaving marks, so the scene made you pay attention to that.

I really loved it. I'm going to be watching it again. My favorite article on it had a headline "Toxic Masculinity Is the True Villain of Star Wars: The Last Jedi".

He did not. They made a point of it: the red salt that was normally kicked up was visually striking, and they had a close up of their feet a couple of times.

The silence when Laura Dern made the FTL jump into the fleet was far more effective than a huge boom was, I was almost disappointed when the sound came back in.
That was my favorite moment. So effective.

Why did we need someone to say "salt"? Was it just to show that they weren't redoing the snow/Hoth battle from Episode 4?
Beyond the other purposes, this was part of building up to the force ghost reveal. (Also, Luke looked way younger as a projection.)

Loved the Silver streaks in the Hyperspace collision too, best scene of the movie imo.

My only complaints are about a couple "Checkov's Guns", for lack of a better term, in the movie. and both of them are on Jedi Island with luke. First, His friggin X-Wing. I'm good with the projection and it was a cool reveal, but we get a Glimps of his X-Wing in the water, a clear mirror of ep.5 and then just... nothing, it's a cameo i guess but seriously, if you're gonna show something that iconic that obviously do something with it.

Second is the mosaic pool in the center of Luke's meditation cave. It clearly, much as I'm not a fan, shows a figure balanced between the light and dark. But then it's never mentioned, addressed, brought up, or even referenced. It's the friggin Centerpeice of the whole room! If it wasn't such a loadbearing image used i could understand the 'rule of cool' and dismiss it. If it were just another copy of the old jedi symbol from the book, fine. However, they went with something heavily reminiscent of a Yin-Yang symbol. In a series so razor focused on the balance &/or struggle between the light and dark they pulled in a very relevant or even poiniant image(given the events on the island) and then never even alluded to it.

Yeah, as soon as I saw that X-Wing, I figured Luke would have Rey lift it out of the water like Yoda had him do.

We went as a family to see it and were all mightily entertained. In that respect it did its job very well. Overall I liked it - I do however feel that it suffers from an attack of The Stupids and suspect it will not hold up well to repeated viewing, much like TFA which I find less enjoyable each time I rewatch it. I think the problem is that films like this require a suspension of disbelief which is totally fine except they go way over the top on so many things that it starts to verge on the ridiculous. The Disney habit of lurching from one set piece to another is in evidence here, bending the plot out of shape in order to get to the next big punch up or explosion which is usually made garish enough to help you forget that the rest of the movie isn’t making much sense.

Some thoughts (good, bad and indifferent, with apologies for length of waffling):

Poe Dameron is a bit of a jackass – not only is his poor decision making responsible for trashing the entire resistance bomber fleet along with the loss of dozens of lives, he is then directly responsible for screwing up their escape plan to the salt planet resulting in hundreds more deaths, not to mention his misadvised mutiny against the admiralty. This guy would have been shot in the back of the head in any guerrilla army by now, rather than getting a mild slap and some grudging admiration because he is so loveable he can be excused anything.

Hux as an imbecile – “you may be wondering why I keep such a craven around” says Snoke and yes, I really do wonder. I think they just dialled up the stupid on him for comedic effect but at least Domnhall Gleeson is a fantastic actor so worth watching regardless.

Phasma is the most pointless ‘character’ in the entire saga - Even Jar-Jar was more convincing, yes I went there. All of her dailogue in TFA could have been handled by random officers or Hux and she has even less to do in this one. She seems to be there purely to give Finn a nemesis to fight against in an awkwardly convoluted set-piece.

Luke as Kung-Fu Master was great – I love the way that he just tossed that sabre away then pointedly ignored Rey despite her doggedly following him around. Given the Eastern influences into the original movies I thought the whole pastiche of the student begging the master to train them was spot-on. They also gave him real gravitas in keeping his distance and his bitter atonement for his past mistakes. The whole angle with multiple versions of that moment with Kylo was also done well, as was the moment with Rey in the pit. X-Wing in the water is just a reminder to Rey that Luke came here to stay, that thing ain’t flying again after years in the ocean.

What the heck is BB-8 made out of? People are picking it up and throwing it around in both movies, but the shell alone must way hundreds of kilos.

Thought that the Kylo being drawn to the light wilst Rey is drawn to the dark thing was fantastic. Also loved the fact that Snoke wasn't anybody special, just a bad guy with force powers. I think that the question of Rey's parentage is still open but at the same time hugely releived that she didn't turn out to be a Skywalker/Solo/Reincarnation.

Deus Ex Machina all over the place – Leia can now fly like Superwoman in space because the plot needs it right now! We can track you through lightspeed because the plot needs it right now! We can superspeed your X-Wing because the plot needs it right now! We can blow up a rebel base from space during the first ten minutes but not in the last ten minutes because the plot needs it right now! Luke can force project himself into a physical form halfway across the galaxy because the plot needs it right now! We can’t track more than one ship at a time, even though later we can track several at once, because the plot needs it right now! And many many more, far too many to be excusable.

Super flying space Leia – I’m not so bothered by the scene itself, I think it was a missed opportunity for story reasons. If Leia had left us on the bridge at that moment then we could have had a magnificent sequence with her sensing Kylo, Luke dialling in and realising what is about to happen, then Kylo easing off the matricide only for the torpedoes to go in anyway – it would have lent credibility to Luke’s decision to finally get involved, made a stronger case for the introduction of Admiral Purple-Hair (Laura Dern was great but her character was completely redundant), and made Poe’s temper-tantrum and mutiny all the more poignant and relevant given that the fleet would be in complete disarray.

Casino planet – contrary to a lot of the negativity out there I think that these scenes were great. They set up the notion that the new rebellion would come from the lowest quarters, allowed Finn and Rose some bonding time together which makes for some interesting romantic tangles later on, and brought to life that there is more going on in the galactic struggle than simply bad hats versus good hats. It’s also one of few truly original parts of the film that isn’t directly aping ESB and RotJ. I thought that Benicio Del Toro was superb and his character worked in a way that was a perfect fit for the story thread that was being explored. It certainly wasn’t ancillary to the overall plot, however the setup was horribly flawed; going there to find a macguffin on the advice of Orange Yoda in order to solve a ridiculous plot point that was only there in order to make this whole sequence happen in the first place – yeah, okay, not buying it. Which brings me onto…

It felt like two films in one – there’s a natural cutting point where the gang are all going their separate ways, some of them into extreme danger, and with plenty of mysteries still to be unwound. Given that the end note has such a feeling of finality to it there is a sense that this could have been the second and third parts of this new trilogy with any further films being on a complete blank slate. At the end I have to say that I didn’t really feel like I need to see any more of this particular story.

they wanted the movie to have shallow characters because that's what the old ones had.

Wasnt nt one of the main complaints of force awakens that it had shallow characters.

And honestly, if people want Luke taking center stage then they should watch the original trilogy. How would you feel if you were some new guy and an older guy who was a world saving celebrity stole your thunder even though the movie wasn't even about him! 

Also: am I the only person who remembers that lady purple-hair is named admiral holdo.

I keep thinking about this movie more than a Star Wars movie has done in the past. It's really fun how they turned a bunch of the other movie tropes inside-out. I think the Canto Bight escapade is a good example: the whole point is that the heroes go on a heroic secret mission, because their heroic friend leading a heroic mutiny said so, and it doesn't matter. Because sometimes a resistance force is going to have setbacks.

Seriously, the on-the-run-with-fuel-running-out gave this movie just a good a desperate on the run feel as the Battlestar Galactica episode "33."

That was a very good article. I thought this one was an interesting take, too.

I also have to say I don't understand the backlash, especially when people cite the prequels or the Expanded Universe. Nothing that happened in The Last Jedi was out of line with the shady characters, temptations of the Dark Side, resurgent Imperial Remnants, technological superweapons, Nar Shaddaa bounty hunters, Skywalker family members going dark and light and dark again, mistakes at the Jedi Academy, and new characters coming from humble origins that already permeate everything from the Star Wars expanded universe. And so I thought that The Last Jedi was perfectly consistent with everything that I'm used to seeing from this wonderfully complex, baroque, mythological universe.

I don't think it's his "loveable" attitude that keeps him out of a shallow grave. I think it's his dog-fighting talent. I mean, if we go back to TFA, they jump in to that system with Finn, Han & Chewie on the ground and in around 13 seconds between locking sfoils & it cutting back to Finn we see him snuff at least 7 tie fighters. That type of talent in the air usually gets Red added to your name somewhere (the Red Baron, the Red Tails, Etc). Although I do agree that mistakes were made when his type of personality gets any authority in a movement like the resistance. I mean the "Red Baron" was just some pilot.

I think one of my favorite parts of Luke's "crazy kung-fu master" attitude is when they go out to the meditation chamber and I notice him randomly carying a reed with him. Then he uses it, it reminds me a Lot of old movies where the master does something seemingly random because he's experienced and knows what mistakes a student is likely to make.

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Of course - except Leia and Holdo do have that conversation about how much they "really like that guy" while shaking their heads and smiling in admiration. I think that is where I'm getting the feeling that he is being given a pass on catastrophic errors by being one of the beautiful people. We’re told that he is one of the heroes rather than being shown that he is one. Heroes are created by their resolve in the face of adversity, not because they have some brilliant trick they are good at, which is why I struggle with Poe as a hero just because he does some tricks in an X-Wing.  <o:p></o:p>

Here’s a thing though – I saw someone elsewhere describing Poe’s flying exploits as over the top so I looked at what is considered the marker for someone to be described as a ‘Flying Ace’. Apparently the bar of roughly five career kills became so commonplace in WWII that over seventy pilots earned the marker within a single day, so I guess that downing seven or eight Ties in one flight really isn’t that big of a deal after all. I think they’ve just gone for this rather thrilling video-game style of flying which is why it looks a bit incongruous. Poe is supposed to be the greatest combat pilot ever though, so I for one am buying it; it’s greatly entertaining after all.

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Another thing that has been occupying my thoughts is Finn as a metaphor for the modern consciousness.

He’s introduced to us as naively following the path that has been set out for him to follow, knowing only what he has been told in seclusion. When he is faced with the harsh reality of the society he is part of he reacts in shock and breaks away; but even then he is constantly berated by all around whenever he tries to follow his instincts, as everyone seeks to instead impose their own views upon him in order to influence or control him in their own way.

Poe is pretty much the only person that doesn’t tell Finn what to do, what to think, or point out his perceived failings in their eyes. Everyone wants to control Finn’s mindset and direction rather than facilitating him in finding his own path, which results in him constantly wanting to run away from everything yet always coming back to the familiar for reasons of security or a misplaced sense of duty (or guilt). His actions are continually shaped by what others deem to be right. Even wise old Orange Yoda feels the need to tell him who and what he is.

Maybe because of this he remains oblivious to reality, which is exposed to him so meaningfully during the Canto Bight scenes. His experiences with Rose and DJ expose that even the ‘good guys’ have been leading him on with ‘alternative facts’ and that the supposed bad guys aren’t the real menace that is really controlling and influencing society. The powerbrokers in the casino don’t care about dark side or light side, empire or rebellion, only that they retain and grow their immense power and wealth regardless of the methods used. Given the way the film ends I would say that there is more of this to be explored, unless of course JJ loses his nerve and just gives us RotJ with bigger explosions.

The one moment where Finn steels his nerve to do what he feels is right (drive headlong into the death star cannon) it is a futile gesture that is aping the expectations of heroism that have been fed to him by others; Rose is quite right in saving him from himself in this respect. The rest of the time he is getting into terrible predicaments due to the bad decisions made by others around him.

All Finn really wants though is a Human connection, and he jumps at chances to build relationships with Poe, Rey, Han, Rose, pretty much everyone right off the bat. I was really hoping that Disney in their diversiverse would have the nerve to follow through on fostering a romantic connection between him and Poe, but I’m actually quite liking the arc of his character growth as he switches affections with a sense of lessening awkwardness.

I’m probably reading way too much into Finn’s character but what I really love is that this film is making me think in this way, regardless of how right or wrong I may be. It really is more than just big explosions and space wizards.

Vice-admiral Holdo.  If you're going to go full nerd in a Star Wars discussion, better make sure you're right.

id like to point out that many real life heroes were actually jackasses. As well as many real life heroes being heroes simply because they a. Won a war for us or b. Did something notable and heroic on the battlefield.

i can't keep track of all these military ranks.

My sense was of a movie that was trying to do everything and achieved ... some things.

Beautiful scenery. Some very exciting action. Really appreciated multiple moments where expectations were undercut. Still really love Rey and like Finn almost as much. Rose was a welcome addition. I think Luke was very well fleshed out. 

There was an awful lot of death. I was reminded of Rogue One as all of those resistance fighters were dying in the bombing run assault and, in particular, with Rose's sister's heroism. 

Stupid science stuff knocked me out of the story. In particular, the whole bit about running out of fuel doesn't make any sense to me. Fuel is for accelaration. With no friction, those ships are just going to keep accelerating. You're telling me that the resistance ship's top accelaration is exactly the same as the Last Order's? If not, they should either be caught or they should get far enough ahead that they can drop off those transport ships without any danger of them being attacked. Also, since velocity isn't limited, can you imagine trying to slow the velocity of those transport ships enough to not crash land on that planet after they were accelerating for hours and hours in advance of being launched? When the support vehicles ran out of fuel, they were shown listing in space. Umm, ... No. They would just stop accelerating.

OK, rant over. Did I enjoy the movie? Well,  sure, mostly. But it certainly did seem like an excuse to show a variety of set pieces rather than a cohesive plot, and I have lingering uncertainties on just what is the moral here.

its called suspension of dies belief my friend. We already have to susupend our disbelief to believe that a laser that can b,ow up entire solar systems can be made or that explosions can happen in space, what's a few scientific accuracies in a series full of them.

Assuming that fuel/power usage translates into speed - instead of acceleration - is a pretty common science error in sci-fi. Battlestar Galactica and The Expanse are the two most recent shows to depict Newton’s second law largely correctly.

Incidentally, if Star Wars treated acceleration properly, the fastest ship in the Galaxy should probably be the Corellian Blockade Runner.

Also, it’s not entirely unreasonable to assume that the Resistance was deliberately matching acceleration with the First Order because the efficiency scaling of the way their fuel is consumed means that burning at a higher rate will actually get them caught sooner.

Saw it last night. Loved it much, despite the science whiffs.

There were several moments of THe Stupids, true, but overall, I'm glad I saw it.

And the Jedi books were totally in that drawer, and Luke honestly didn't know.  I'm pretty sure Yoda did, though.

It finally released in China, so now I can look at this thread. Resurrection time!

I didn't like it, but I'm glad most of you did because it made me like it a little more than I did. There were just too many times, even for a Sci Fi flick that I was saying, "oh, come on." I just couldn't get over that the MAIN conflict in the movie was a fleet of bad guys floating after a fleet of good guys slowly. Also, the "jokes" fell super flat for me; I hated that Hux went from sneering dictator to sniveling whiner in the first moments of the film because of a schoolyard "I can't hear you" prank. And, plot-wise, it's just poor writing to have an entire side story be completely irrelevant.

Visually, this movie was friggen stunning. Like...jeez, everything looked so beautiful. From real world locations to red salt eruptions to diamond wolves to splitting starships, this was the best looking Star Wars, for sure. And I liked seeing puppet Yoda again, too, haha.

Anyway, I understand the complaints, I guess, but I'm not sad that I spent my money on this...and of course I will get in line for number 9 haha.

Oddly enough, I agree with all of your complaints (except I did think whiny Hux was funny), yet I still really liked the movie.  It's either my 3rd or 4th favorite Star Wars movie.

I kinda loved that - it reminded me of the Battlestar Galactica episode “33,” or s submarine movie. It took an epic space battle situation and stuffed it all into the cramped continues of a ship under siege. In warfare, as they say, amateurs study tactics and professionals study logistics.

Besides, I think the “main” conflict was the one with Rey and Kylo.