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Recent DC/Marvel discussion (Comic Spoilers inside)

26 posts · 764 views · started 2016-05-26 18:15 UTC
FO
Foote
2016-05-26 18:15 UTC
#1

I dont know how many folks here follow the current offerings by the establishment that have inspired our favorite tabletop game, but there has been some interesting things coming out from both Marvel and DC recently and I thought I'd share my thoughts and maybe a disscussion about whats going on. There will be comic spoilers below.

Marvel

Captain America: Steve Rogers #1

Honestly, I have enjoyed quite a few of the books comming out of Marvels "All-New All-Different" branding era (Spider-Man/Deadpool being my personal darkhorse favorite). And even after the unruly story arc that was Pleasent Hill, where an old and aged Steve Rogers was brought his youth thanks to a Cosmic-Cube-fragment-turned-litte-girl, I continued to enjoy it. But there is a strong possibility it all kinda stops here.

Steve Rogers #1 marks the historic event of being the Retcon to end all Retcons, that moment where Marvel gloriously leaps over the Mobie Dick of all sharks. The moment you tell your audience that Steve-mother-f---ing-Rogers was a Hydra double agent from the time he was a little boy is the moment you make them all question your ability to write compelling stories. The lead writer has already come out and said that this is a long haul shift, not something that will end or resolve in one arc or even the next few. And frankly that worries me. They better have a damn masterpiece of storytelling up their sleeve to warrent this. Look, im not trying to be the old man who hates change and tells the kids to stop playing on his yard, but I have limits to what I can swallow (yes, even in comics). Captain Americas creator was Jewish for cryin out loud, and you're turning Rogers into a full on nazi Hydra agent? Give me a break.

How It Could Work: Steve and his Mom were talked to by a New York cell of Hydra in the late 20's when he was a boy. This is a good chunk of time before the Nazi-lead branch of Hydra croped up in Germany. Hydra has long been an organization thats disjointed, or has many heads, as it were. Just look historically at the differences between characters like Zemo and Red Skull and the differences they represent in how they view Hydra and what it should be/stand for. It is possible then that you could write a story where Steve grew up in a Hydra cell that believed in Freedom. Maybe not 100% exactly the proto-typical American Freedom as he has had everyone believe, but some form of it that will likely be explored. He took his stance in Civil War against what he viewd as oppressive governemnt action. He fights against Hydra (or the Hydra that we have come to know) because they are oppressive as well. By shedding a light on the type of Hydra Steve is a part of and maybe contrasting that to the current Hydra that is being build by Red Skull in a similar fashion to current middle eastern terrorist groups, we can break Steve down as a character and really explore what he feels and what he really fights for. Are there better vehicels to tell such a story other than to make Rogers Hydra all along? 100% yes. But even as skeptical as I am, I can see a way for them to at least make the most of their hillarious Retcon and make the most out of it.

 

DC

DC Universe: Rebirth

I have complicated feelings here. First off, let me say that I have not been a big fan of much coming out of DC the past few years. Recently, the Darksied War arc of the Justice League was pretty freakin cool honestly, and I have been a fan of Snyder's entire New-52 run on Batman. But thats about it for me. The Darksied War was the lead in to DC doing a 100% overhaul and rebranding of their entire line of comics that they are calling the Rebirth for those who don't know. What Marvel did last year to some decent success, DC is following. And of course like everyone else I was skeptical of the direction they might take. DC Universe: Rebirth is the stepping stone from the New-52 era into the Rebirth and we got our look at what they wanna do and the philosophical story reasons for wanting to do it.

This was 80 pages of an issue that was deep and full of meta disscussion not only about the characters and universe that the New-52 characters find them in, but there was a deeper message about storytelling and where DC is at in general. I can't get into all of it, but I'll try to outline to basics here for those who want to know and don't read comics.

Wally West is our main character through the piece. No, not the current version of Wally. The Pre-New52 Wally West. Immediatly I am hooked by this because you know a major shift must be coming for them to bring this discarded version of Wally back into the fold. He is stuck inside the SpeedForce outside of time/space and trying to get a foothold back into the current universe to tell someone of the secret he has learned while there. But there is a problem. No one in the current DC universe remembers anything from the Pre-New52 erra (those stories and universes were destroyed and discarded by DC after the Flashpoint arc by and large). Wally first tries to contact Batman, but Batman doesn't know who he is. Seeing Batman is of major importance though, because Batman actually has the letter from his Father hanging in the Batcave, the very letter that Barry gave him during the Flashpoint arc I mentioned above. It is the only piece of evidence in the current DC universe that there was more before it, but Wally cannot explain it to Batman in time. He cannot tell Batman that someone has ereased 10 years of the Universe from everyones memories and the timestream, that there is another force outside time/space that is playing with their lives. Eventually by the end when Wally is about to die in the SpeedForce, he finaly gets his old mentor, Barry Allen, to remember him and pull him into the real universe, saving his life.

There was a lot more, trust me, but thats the basic rundown. Someone messed with the past ~10 years of their comic universe history and Wally is trying to get everyone to notice. It's already a sorta meta discussion not only about in-universe but the outside storytelling at DC. It's pretty cool stuff. But the end takes it to a whole new level. Wally threw something from outside of space/time into the Batcave, something to give Batman a clue as to what happened (aside from just asking him to talk to Barry about the Letter). And that clue was probably the most shocking thing I've ever seen in my 28 years of reading comics.

The blood-stained Smiley Face pin worn by the Comedian in The Watchmen graphic novel.

The force outside of time/space thats been messing with the DC universe? Dr. Manhattan.

It took me a while to pick my jaw up from off the floor. The immediate response I had was "Are they really brining the Watchmen into the rest of the DC universe?! HOW DARE THEY DO THAT!!!" But after a lot of reflection, I can't be sure if they are really going to do that. What I do know, is that immediate reaction almost made me lose sight of the symbolic signifigance of Batman finding the Comedian's pin.

The Watchmen, for better or worse, was a major turning point for superhero comics and characters. It completely changed the way they were written and how people viewed them. The historical impact of the Watchmen is massive and it's ripples are still felt today because it was the first time we saw heros as just nitty and gritty people. And that's exactly what Wally West was trying to tell Batman by throwing him that pin. Their entire Universe was changed in large part due to the effects of that book. In a lot of ways, DC is showing their audience that they are going to try and respond to their own responce to what the Watchmen was (its so meta, I know) and rebell against it. It's a "rebirth" in light of trying to fight against their own post-watchmen way of storytelling. It's brilliant.

Now, if Rorschach shows up in the new issues of Batman coming down the line, well, they will have screwed up in the largest way possible and I'll be pretty angry at them for diminishing and trivializing what they have done here. But for right now, the future of DC looks really bright and this kick-off issue of a new era was pretty incredible.

P2
Powerhound_2000
2016-05-26 18:31 UTC
#2

Haven't read the Captain America Hydra comic but I've seen articles about it.   I'm not sure where they are going with but since I'm not highly invested in Captain America I'm curious how they justify such a retcon. 

FO
Foote
2016-05-26 18:47 UTC
#3

Well, I outlined one possibility above. But there is another that I like:

As most of you may or may not know, Charles Xavier was killed last year by a Phoenix infused Scott Summers gone made (who also was killed sometime later). Red Skull managed to capture Prof. X's body and implant pieces of Xavier's brain into Red Skulls, giving him the same telepathic powers as Xavier. This is a pretty major story, and it's the prime objective of the Avenger: Unity team that was organized by Steve Rogers when he was still old (pre-Pleasant Hill). Post Pleasant Hill obivously, the cosmic cube girl turned Steve young and vanished with Bucky and the Thunderbolts. The Scientist that worked with the cube closely was captured by Zemo (an enemy of both Red Skull and Rogers). The flashbacks we see in Steve Rogers #1 about his boyhood and his mom being recruited into Hydra are all in black and white. With the clear exception of splashes of red. This could be nothing, or it could be very deliberate. The splashes of red in those memories could indicate that Red Skull is using Xavier's powers to implant memories into Steve's head, and using him to get to the scientist who worked on the Cube (which does happen in this issue). Red Skull has a long long history in the comics of wanting to get his hands on a cosmic cube after all.

AL
Arcanist_Lupus
2016-05-26 20:12 UTC
#4

I'm not a big comic book reader.  But I think I basically agree with you, Foote, about Rogers.  Captain America, moreso than a good many other heroes, is defined by his ideals and motivations.  retconning those ideals as a false persona destroys who he is as a character.  But if you can redefine those ideals - keep what he believes in the same, but view it through a different lens - that can become a compelling exploration of what those ideals really are, and what they mean.

 

I also find it interesting that this reveal comes so soon after the Civil War movie - an arc in which Captain America ends up on the wrong side of the law to fight for ideals that the audience agrees with (probably), but against opponents who aren't entirely in wrong either.  

 

The other possibility (which is a bit of a cop-out to the cliffhanger, but still would present a compelling story) is that Steve is a Manchurian Agent whose brainwashing has only been activated now.  Everything that he's fought for up until now is his true beliefs, but now he's enmeshed in a long running Hydra plot to discredit everything that he's achieved up until now, and he doesn't know if he can trust himself anymore.

 

A third possiblity  (which I find more entertaining than the other two, but far less likely) is that he was a Hydra believer as a child, but during the super soldier program he was discovered and brainwashed into being the good American hero we all know and love.  

DP
dpt
2016-05-26 20:40 UTC
#5

 I found this take interesting, as objecting to the current moment, regardless of what the overall arc turns out to be.

http://panels.net/2016/05/26/on-steve-rogers-1-antisemitism-and-publicity-stunts/

SP
Spiff
2016-05-26 21:23 UTC
#6

The Steve Rogers thing seems like it's a few years too late.  A couple of years ago cynicism about our heroes was in, and this storyline would've seemed in step.  But nowadays, we're watching movies where Steve Rogers is the biggest hero there is.  Who's going to want to read about him being a secret villain?  My guess is they'll retcon the retcon by the end of the year.

MA
Matchstickman
2016-05-26 21:43 UTC
#7

There's a theory that the Captain America thing was done partially because Marvel comics doesn't like the way Marvel films is treating them.

DO
Donner
2016-05-26 21:51 UTC
#8

My understanding was that they were just glad they were getting attention.

TA
TakeWalker
2016-05-26 23:17 UTC
#9

Not a comic reader either, but bringing Watchmen into another universe does seem like a mistake, from afar. I mean, I don't even think the movie was all that popular, and it was years ago, so how could this even be a cash grab/name recognition thing?

DP
dpt
2016-05-27 02:07 UTC
#10

Did you forget the actual URL? With that warning, I'm curious...

MA
Matchstickman
2016-05-27 02:18 UTC
#11

Yes and no.

I used to have an "angry" picture of Alan Moore but it appears I did not transfer it over to this new computer so it is lost. I was hoping to find it and come edit the url back in, I guess I'll remove it.

MA
Matchstickman
2016-05-27 02:21 UTC
#12

The Watchmen film was based on a 1980s comic book written by Alan Moore, and it's akin to a Citizen Kane of comic books. It's widly consider to be one of the significant pieces of literature (yes, literature) of the 20th Century.

As to the inclusino of them in the DC universe themselves, it's like revealing that Gandalf was Dumbledore all along, sure they are both magic related but they both operate at different places in the spectrum, the Before Watchmen series wasn't all that and I do fear what they will do to them with their inclusion in the DC landscape.

 

I wonder what Alan Moore is saying? (NSFW link, language)

RA
Rabit
2016-05-27 11:22 UTC
#13

Should be easy to find a picture of an angry Alan Moore… :wink:

(Apparently there's even a Simpsons version! :open_mouth: )

I’m not closely following comics anymore, but I’m really hoping they can spin this Cap retcon to the positive. Right now, it’s looking like it’s going to be one of the least popular versions of Cap. (And that’s saying something – you know about Capwolf, right?) Right now, it feels like they’re spitting on his creators’ graves…

As to DC's changes, I'm just pissed someone went and dug up the pin. Seriously. It makes no logical sense that that pin could be available, as it was buried with the Comedian…

Seriously, I get the meta they're trying to communicate. I'm really hoping they don't actively integrate the Watchman universe with DC and just leave the symbolism as a message to the readers instead of a full integration.

Hopefully folks keep us updated. :slightly_smiling_face:

P2
Powerhound_2000
2016-05-27 13:40 UTC
#14

Here is a good one on this from a Captain America Twitter account (warning it does contain curse words if that bothers you) https://twitter.com/capofbrooklyn/status/736188912142540800

FO
Foote
2016-05-27 14:22 UTC
#15

I think the point was that Wally threw the pin into the Batcave from where he was in the speedforce outside of time/space. And I agree with you as I said above, I really hope that DC is just using Watchmen as symbolism for DC wanting to attack their own writing response to Watchmen and undo some of the bad decisions along the way. If it's isolated as symbolism to this one story, it could go down as one of the greats. But if the Justice League finds itself actually battling Dr. Mahnattan at some point, well, then I think they missed the whole point they were trying to make in the first place.

 

On Cap: I am really thinking that Red Skull has a major hand in Rogers thinking. I went back and re-read pleasent hill arc, and there is a sequence where Rogers does run into Red Skull being disguised who helps Rogers escape Zemo and death. Why would Red Skull do that unless he had a much bigger plan for Rogers? When Rouge almost caught Skull stealing something from a gold vault, he mentions to his daughter that he can't implant memories into Rouge because she was trained by Xavier, the same brain he is now using. But he was able to alter some yet unknown memory in Quicksilver because no one ever trained him to resist that kind of stuff. Steve Rogers would surely be in the same boat and very vulnerable, especially in his old age, to be preyed on by one of the greatest telepathic minds in history. His vendetta against Rogers runs deep and turning him into Hydra and watching his fall from grace seems plausible.

The one thing I guess I'm trying not to do is accept that the retcon is actually a retcon instead of a long-con

FO
Foote
2016-05-27 14:29 UTC
#16

Oh dude. Watchmen was probably the most iconic and important graphic novels in the history of the comic medium. Hell, it was on my required reading list in a Modern Literature class where I went to College. Even if you are not a "comic reader", I strongly recommend picking up this graphic novel at your local book store. It's well worth the read, not just because of its importance to everything that came after, but just because the storytelling is so good and the characters are as compelling as any. If you do not want to buy it (who wouldnt want it for their own book collection though?), send me a PM and I could probably send you an electronic copy. It's honestly worth your time.

CR
Craig
2016-05-27 14:39 UTC
#17

+1.

If you're not familiar with comics history, it's easy to miss how much Watchmen affected how stories are told now. We tend to see heroes in comics now as real people with real lives behind the mask, if you will, but Watchmen was integral in making that so common.

RA
Rabit
2016-05-27 20:45 UTC
#18

+1
It really is worth checking it out.

DO
Donner
2016-05-27 22:18 UTC
#19

Bleh.  I never enjoyed Watchmen.  Not because the people were real.  Just because they were told how to negate stuff and they blatantly ignored it.  Stupid Silk whatsherface on Mars following Dr. Manhattan up the stairs after he said she would.  Break the cycle, girl!  So...aggrivating!  Best character in it was Rorschac (sp?).  He actually used his brain.

RA
Rabit
2016-05-27 23:14 UTC
#20

I think that's part of the charm of it, to me. They act like people, and like most people they do fairly stupid stuff. They don't understand how Manhatan views time, that they should/could change what he sees – and actually they couldn't, as he's already seen them do it and would see them taking the action to avoid what he's saying. That's part of the core of it all, that they have no choice in avoiding it.

"… timey-whimey…"

But yeah, Rorschach is certainly the most interesting of them, although he is psychotic. :confused:

TR
Trajector
2016-05-28 13:34 UTC
#21

Only comics I’ve read are Watchmen, V for Vendetta, and Sandman, so I’m also not really a comics-reader.

I’d definitely suggest Watchmen. If you’ve seen the movie first, though, it may lose some punch because the movie is almost a frame-by-frame remake of the comic. Yet, somehow, it’s not as good.

TA
TakeWalker
2016-05-29 00:00 UTC
#22

Reading the comic afterward was definitely the right choice, because yeah, the movie's not that great.

V for Vendetta meanwhile is one of my all-time favorite movies, and when you read the comic, it gives the story a lot more subtext. That one, I enjoy two different ways.

BS
Belle_Sorciere
2016-06-06 18:57 UTC
#23

Actually, he really isn't. He doesn't show any signs of psychosis in the series.

Did you actually mean something other than "psychotic?"

RA
Rabit
2016-06-06 19:14 UTC
#24

Yeah, I didn't mean he's literally psychotic. He has a variety of issues with mental illness. (I don't have a psych background and very limited experience in the field.)

BS
Belle_Sorciere
2016-06-07 08:57 UTC
#25

Yeah, he does have a lot of issues. 

BO
Bowie
2016-06-07 14:15 UTC
#26

Twelve of them, really.

Collected in a graphic novel, y'might've heard of it, "Watchmen".