Sentinel Tactics is now on Kickstarter!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gtgames/sentinel-tactics-the-flame-of-freedom

I'm so excited for this!

Huzzah!

Backed.

These will be minis I will HAVE to paint, though... and I haven't been very good about that with any of my games. 

Woo! Sentinel Tactics!

Look at those new costumes! Look at those extra characters with potentially cool costumes!

Awsome things to point out about the KS:

1. Omnitron-V! Not our familiar I, not quite the hero X, but V. Too awesome.

2. Long lost Ra? He looks awesome! Even after becoming Horus Ra, his power was not enough to best Set and the Ennead. He is back and more ornate than ever.

3. AbZero has a brand new shiney white suite! Awesome FV logo and he is now fully embracing hero status.

4. Bunker got a suite upgrade, and it looks very similar to one found in the Freedom Tower deck in the card game. I'll bet theres other suites out there!

5. You can see Tachon wearing a back brace of sorts. Just better technology or has she sustained a big injury like the incap side of her TLT card game promo?

6. The video is hillarious. Between Adams harddrive and dip dive dodging Wrenches, and Paul cleaning the floor, it was fantastic and hillarious. Well done.

7. Unlocked characters. WHO COULD THEY BE!? We are gonna want them. All of them. 

There are secrets in the video! I can't make them out! Theone I noticed are two promo cards taped to the boxes when Christopher is showing the tiles.

Edit: Nope, just realized it is Agent of Gloom Spite and SkinWalker GloomWeaver, curses!

Here's the video on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWm5zUTs-fk

I noticed a doll on the shelf by the wrench--any idea what that could be?

The doll is also on the bookshelf behind Adam.

Raptor bot is also seen attacking Deadpool while Christopher is walking.

I see a total of three cards, but one of them looks like a villain rule card. A few seconds later, there's an intriguing large piece of art. I don't see how you can identify them!

He was showing off cards that say "The Operative", which if I'm not mistaken is not one of the villains in the base game.

When he's showing off the miniatures, there are some black cat sculptures; what are those for?

I edited my previous post, I had realized it is just SkinWalker GloomWeaver and Agent of Gloom Spite.

*dies laughing*

Christopher. I know your not a person who likes to get up and perform, but my god you are hillarious. thank you for bringing your unique brand of humour to that video.

Well done! I love to see how you guys are progressing as a company and learning things with each new game :)

This.. Is a wrench!

No backing for me, I'm afraid. International shipping just kills it.

Not complaining because I know shipping's expensive. It seems fair to charge that much, but there's no way I can justify paying such a high price. Especially not with customs fees on top of that. 

And then it becomes another one of those games where some people get free cool stuff because their geographical location allows them to back the project and support the game at half the price of us international types, and that makes me sad.

silver, can you maybe get in on one of those sweet times where everyone chips in to one pledge? I know many have done that and >G has always bene good at working to get a massive single shipment out that costs less to ship all at once to someone in Europe who will then turn around and internally ship it out to anyone who contributed. I'msure it will pop up soon for this one as well.

The FAQ says no combined orders, since the shipping's based on weight and there isn't actually a saving to be made by sending multiple games together. 

ahh. I missed that one :/

You think you're excited!

The Unknown Characters look sweet.  OMG so sweet.  We must unlock them all.  Because I will cry if we do not.

Ra is all super-egyptian and awesome.  Love it.

All red dawn, awesome.

Tachyon, does it look to anyone else like she might have got some ideas from frictions suit?

I love the bookends, lovely touch.

Also a rather nice row of bottles there at the end.

I'm not entirely sure I understand, so I'll ask here for clarification:

If we pledge 80 USD now, do we automatically get bumped up to the higher reward levels when they're made? If not, how much will the "game + all promo miniatures" level cost? I'd like to get a copy or two of that.

The Promo chars are free if you KS back, but cost extra if you didnt

fromthe comments 

Creator GreaterThanGames about 1 hour ago

@Brett

So, each of the pledge levels include the cost of the game plus shipping. At the point that we hit funding, everyone gets art prints and promo cards for all of the characters. Then, at each Stretch Goal, there are additional free characters that will NOT be free outside the Kickstarter. These promo cards and additional characters are the sorts of things that people hound us for at conventions as via e-mail.

If you don't feel right supporting this Kickstarter, we totally understand, but Greater Than Games Kickstarters have always been focused on making sure our backers get significant bang for their buck. And that focus is still important to us.

I almost called in sick from work just so I could keep refreshing the G>G Kickstarter profile page.  Their twitter comments sure weren't convincing me that I'd have enough time to drive to work first.

I'm asking about the miniatures for the extra characters, not just the characters themselves. At once point it seems to imply that they'll be free if you back early, but at another point, it seems to say that it'll be extra regardless, so I figure I'm misreading it at one point or the other.

The promos are free, yes. But the miniatures for the promos will not be free.

Already 66% funded! I'm pretty excited for this, and I basically never play competitive games.

I thought that Legacy died, and Young Legacy took over the job?

A lot of the Europeans are justifiably staying away from backing because it's not reasonable for them to pay shipping for the full box. It seems like there should be a pledge level for non-American fans that would let them just get the promos and bonus character cards. GtG would only have to pay postal rates so hopefully the shipping costs wouldn't be insane and the non-Americans could still participate and get some of the goods. Obviously, the miniatures would be excluded from the rewards at that pledge level, but the non-Americans could eventually buy them at the store.

Not quite. That's what would have happened, but you know something's been messing with the multiverse/timelines. We don't know how things shape up…

As Christopher said in the video this is after the main sentinels storyline, since the story isn’t over yet clearly he got better.

Any time travelers out there want to inform us how much the kickstarter will rake in and what kind of sweet stretch goals are to come?

I see a vision of the future… it's a number! With some cryptic symbol in front of it, made up of a line segment and a curve… And words! I see words, words everywhere! Mostly on cards and such though.

Apropos of nothing, I was highly amused to see a helm and shield on the shelves that looked like they got some regular SCA use.

And now I need to see which of my friends I can bribe to paint miniatures since they'll look far far better done that way than if I tried to paint them myself.

We are up to almost 40k in less than 6 hours. I say we fully fund by the end of the day.

At this point, "fully fund by the end of the day" seems rather pessimistic. I'll be surprised if the current stretch goals aren't broken by then.

I think we'll break one stretch goal, and get halfway to the next by the end of the 24 hour period.

That being said, I always guess low.

Totally agree. I'm only saying the project may be funded in less than 8 hours. Everything else is gravy. 

And... it's already hit the KickTraq Top Ten!

I do love that the minis are being made and available, but I can't justify $30 for 9 figures, more for any additional stretch characters. So I'm very happy they made those a separate option. I'd love to have them if I could, but I appreciate they are mindful of tight budgets for the rest of us.

Can't wait to hear some storyline. I'd love if one of those new characters to unlock turns out to be a new character that then later shows up in a SotM expansion. That would be a fun reveal.

That video! These guys know how to have fun.

I’m ready to Sentinels some Tactics, friends. Flame on, Freedom!

I totally read "Stretch Goats" there for a second.

I really need sleep! ;)

Almost funded and we haven't even hit the rush of people in the US and Canada checking their e-Mail after work yet...

On the front page of Kickstarter in the Popular section. Which is awesome.

So, I had decided to try doing some comparing to figure out if Blake Washington got really dark or if there is a new Ra! I have came to the conclusion for 100% that it is a new Ra. How do I know this? This new Ra has both nipples, that's how.

I guess Blake Washington still has both nipples…

While that is infallible logic, it makes me sad. I liked Dr. Blake Washington.

Will be backing later today.  That said - here's to hoping that >G puts an announcement here on the forums soon. Not so much for our benefit, but so we can get rid of that depressing User Ban announcement off the top of feed.

Note - I sent >G an email agreeing with the ban. It's done, it's depressing. Can we have the exiting, happy announcment, pro forma, please?

Perhaps Dr. Washington got cloned, etc....

https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/footenotes-ra-horus-of-two-horizons-4414

I see nothing about Ra's nipple in there.

I can tell you that, if you're in Adam's presence, don't talk about a missing nipple.

It can get bloody.

You might actually survive, but I wouldn't bet on it.

He was an adventurer once, until he took an ancient Egyptian deity to the nipple.

Less that 1K away! Keep refreshing! We're almost there!

Well, they have 29 days to go and less than 4% of their funding goal yet to be met.  Somehow, I think they'll manage to pull this one off.

So Ra is black Nubian now, eh?  (To be clear, I have absolutely no problem with this, I just think it's interesting that the mantle of Ra-ness got passed, given that we already had something similar happen with Bunker.)

And Omnitron is on his fifth version.  I like that.  Presumably the first four versions are regular Advanced, Cosmic, and Advanced Cosmic.

Who exactly are these people who've been waiting with bated breath for miniatures of the Sentinels characters?  What exactly do you need them for?  (Again, I'm not trying to sound accusatory or anything, it's just legitimate curiosity why you think that SOTM, which was previously nothing other than a card game, would require miniatures.  It's not like BAHOTH or Arkham Horror where you're forced to use chits instead; SOTM has no board or anything to put the minis on.)

I hope that isn't the case; I'm hoping that Cosmic Omnitron is Omnitron II, and that the Advanced versions don't count as separate versions. This means we could get up to three more alternates for Multiverse.

I think a game like this absolutely deserves miniatures. I wouldn't have paid for minis for the card game--they'd serve no purpose. But here, the desire to have them is much more understandable--It clearly sets apart your character from all of the other tiles on the map.

I posted the link but forgot to type the context hahaha. My bad. 

Is it possible he just got really tan? It is pretty sunny over in Egypt…or the underworld. Whichever.

Annnnnnnnnnd

Finish line. Time!

We still have 6, 7, 8, and 9 to look forward to; I don't think we really need a separate 3 and 4, and if Christopher came out and endorsed your statement, I'd start going nuts wondering what 3 and 4 were like and why we didn't know about them.  Already I'm curious enough about how X came about, what events of the intervening aeons convinced OT that he needed to become small and bipedal, instead of remaining a huge hulking insectoid.

Perhaps eventually >G can start making their games available to 3D "print"?  Then you could have local printers manufacture things, so there'd be no need to ship them across oceans in cargo containers.  It'd have to be done in fairly high volume to make costs manageable, of course; I'm jut throwing ideas out there, not saying they'll necessarily work.

I've backed for the full game despite living in the UK… I may not be the most financially responsible person.

I'm hoping more stuff gets added through stretch goals so it won't be the case that I'm paying an extra 50% (+customs) on top of the price of the game just to get the box here. At least if I'm buying extra minis it'll make the proportion of he postage costs smaller…

Not particularly fussed about playing this one - PvP isn't really my thing, generally, but I'm happy to see it's made the funding goal already and everything :D. I'll certainly be keeping an eye on it so I can go "yay" every time a stretch goal is met. I might chip in a small pledge just because its >G but I have no intention of actually getting the game myself, just because it's not my sort of thing.

Haven't watched the video yet - might do that later :).

Yes, Ameena, you must watch the video! It is great, on many levels.

Oh yes, please Ameena, watch the video.

I would have backed the kickstarter anyhow, maybe because I am a loyal GTG minion, or maybe because I actually believe it is a seriously great game. But watching this video is ultimatly what made me run for my credit card. No kidding, I am an international backer, but I feel that the video has sufficiently reimbursed me for the shipping cost.

It certainly is multiple magnitudes better than any video I'v seen from them yet. I'm a sucker for those long tracking shot gags. I watched way too many mel brooks movies as a child. Really screwed up my sense of humor.

Christopher, ever think of trying out for an Old Spice comercial? Get Paul on that asap.

Can you explain the lost nipple thing? I missed that somewhere haha

Look at Ra: Horus of Two Horizons. Look at his chest, the left side infact. There is something that should be there, but isn't.

Where is there an image of the Ra in Tactics where we can see his left breast? He appears on the cover art, but only his right side is visibe there.

On the Kickstarter homepage of Sentinel Tactics: The Flame of Freedom, go done to the "Miniatures" area, go down a bit until you see the Grayscale images of artwork of the miniatures. On there you will see an image of Ra.

Backed for the game itself, but not for the minis.  If I wouldn't have to paint the minis myself, I would have gone for the full kit.

And just for everyone's benefit in this, cannon-per-Adam is that Ra did not lose a nipple - it's just obscured by his hand.

Anyway, he's a god. Pretty sure he can regenerate just by using his staff enough...

It isn't missing? Well this is a sad day indeed… Well his awesome points just dropped.

[god voice] You will burn for your blasphemy!!! [/god voice]

Left my (wifi-free) office at lunch so I could back this (Backer # 249). Snuck out again later on but was just a touch too early to watch the instant of funding. Was at 57K when I checked before dropping in here just now.

Someone asked something along the lines of "Why minis?" For Tactics, yes, makes perfect sense. Even playtesting it, I used sand-ins just because I think it makes it easier to visualize what's going on. For SotM, you don't need minis. So why would you get them? Beacuse they're cool!!!

OK, yes, they'd be cooler if they came painted. (They'd be cooler by several orders of magnitude.) In fact, I generally ignore minis that don't come painted, because I'll never paint them. But these I pledged for without even looking too close at the prototypes and artwork. Why? Because I must have Ra!

Pledging for Tactics, pledge for the minis too. (Rent money, meh.) Not pledging for the game, pledge for the minis anyhow. They're cool!

Huh.

I spy "Core game #1" on the side of the (mock up) box.

What could this mean?

I'm in the same boat as Silverleaf - although the price plus shipping comes close to the UK store price, it's if you get hit with the customs charges that it can really hurt. The game looks awesome, but I'm going to wait to either buy it somewhere local, or if they find a way to deliver the kickstarter without the import issues (I know some projects for other companies have, but I don't know what their circumstances were)

That said, congratulations to everyone involved for what looks like an excellent game, and for getting fully funded within half a day!

http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1970559/sentinel-tactics

If anyone wants to go Thumb this picture, it could help catch people's attention on BGG.

I have lent a thumb.

I am really into the game, but as others said 40$ for international shipping is too much: it almost doubles the cost, even if we get the game and miniatures (70$ for game+minis, 50$ in shipping).  

Indeed the shipment is super high quality (UPS that takes 1 day from the US to anywhere else in the world), but other KS projects manage to ship for way less. I wonder how they do it. Maybe they have someone willing to reship the games?

Kickstarter reached the first stretch goal a minute ago. My guess is Unity but that's probably wrong

I was thinking Unity too. Are we gonna have to wait until tomorrow to find out? 

>G is Central Time (I believe) which means it's already tomorrow for them.

I'm on Central time too–I mean when the sun rises. 

Just messing with you. 

I would assume mostly because it is late, probably tomorrow morning. But hey, great surprise for the morning. Onto the next goal!

To those whove playtested...

How does the game scale for players? 2 to 8 is a great range of player count, but how does it hold up at those ranges. Most my gaming is with 2 (my wife and I) but after that it is usually in the 6 to 8 range (why do so many games support up to 5?) Anyway, is this good with 2? Is it good with 8? Do more players add more lag time? Is everyone actively engaged on more then their own turn? if not I'd think more players would make it less fun?

I appreciate any insights in this regard.

My guess would be that other kickstarters drastically underestimate the price of international shipping and take a huge hit on it. I've seen it in more than one update that theyve underestimated the shipping cost, but are striving forward anyways (because they don't have a choice). 

being the 4th Kickstarter, and 6th game to ship by >G they have a reall good handle on shipping costs internationally now. Still working to lower them it seems, but nothing is a guarantee.

This what my thinking as well, I've been in a kickstarter where the maker suddenly had to ask all the international backers to add extra to their pledges because it turned out shipping was higher than he thought it was (luckily I was only backing for digital rewards and wasn't affected) for a big heavy thing like a board game I'd rather know it was going to be a big cost than suddenly have to pay extra (or feel guilty about costing them money).

I think that any reply to this would be so full of [redacted] tags that it wouldn't be funny. Unless it was hilarious. Would it be appropriate to say that involvement in tactical wargames is mostly dependent on the players? This is equally true of Star Fleet Battles (where the rules are written like contracts, and are approximately as thick as the contract necessary to do ~13 million in municipal work) as of The Song of Blades and Heroes, where the rules are available for $8.00 via download.

When playing with two players, generally each player would be controlling one side of the battle, and not just one character each. With larger player counts, each played would generally control a single character. Really, though, the whole game is built around character count and not player count – if you want, one team could be player A controlling REDACTED, player B controlling REDACTED and REDACTED, players C and D each controlling REDACTED of player E who is controlling REDACTED, while player F is on the other team controlling all of REDACTED, except one REDACTED who is controlled by player G who's having to cook dinner at the same time and can only be at the table during REDACTED.

See - hilarious

Well, just because it is cannon doesn't mean it is right.  Canons never were the most reliable things, and cannon isn't much better.

Just because the powers that be refuse to admit to the nipple displacement doesn't mean it didn't happen, it was probably just so traumatic that they blocked it out.

I've decided it is in fact unity. She is facing left with fixer's hat and her little bangs below the rim. 

You know how SotM is a 2 player game, but you can't really play with just 2 heros? You can apply that to tactics as well. If its just the 2 of you, I'v played a bunch of 2v2 skirmishes and it works very well. The Senario's included would also work very well, since they are 1 villain vs multiple heros, 2 players works well here too! 6-8 range you could do anything from 3v3, 4v4, 2v2v2 are always a fun time. Its pretty flexible

Looks like we were all wrong about the new character!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gtgames/sentinel-tactics-the-flame-of-freedom/posts/789184

so

what citizen is that?

Bacon has been unlocked! We get a delicious pig meat character!

Assault, judging by the bardiarche, but he looks a lot darker than I remember his card being.

Sentinel Tactics has made the Hotness on BGG. Now, let's get some more images up and get them on the front page, too.

Stupid question, but how do you know that it's a Citizen?

Agreed, if there are more pictures it's easier to keep it in the Hotness and also the pictures will likely make their way to the top of the Hot pictures, so there will be plenty of exposure.

As an aside, where are Wraith's bandages? That's a big costume change.

Woo! Pauline looks awesome! This is what I've been most excited about--grown up versions of younger heroes. At this point, alongside Beacon, Unity and Visionary will be in their late 20s, and Idealist should be about 20 now. 

I wonder why they're drawing so much attention to Tachyon, Tempest, Fanatic, and Nightmist fighting Baron Blade. Odd.

That’s a good question I think we asked it last year and never got an answer maybe we’ll get character updates for this kick starter, probably when things slow down a big and they need to drum up more interest.

There is a pretty big Citzen logo on his polearm. The exact terminology for the weapon currently escapes me, but this isn't a bardiche. Looks more like a weird glaive.

Also, he doesn't look much like Citizen Assault. He looks more like Citizen Ouch Not In The Face.

I agree, it seems odd. Tempest's name made me perk up cause I'm really hoping he shows up soon in Tactics.

On the other hand, if there are multiple Base Games for Tactics and this one revolved around Ra, maybe one of the others will be entirely centered around Tempest, which would be awesome.

Well, this might be the source of a few odd plot points.  

We know that Nightmist gets hit by the regression darts (a weapon that seems designed to incapacitate Legacy or Beacon), so this is probably when it happens, which could cause her to search for new sources and access to power, triggering the changes that make her into Dark Watch Nightmist.

My guess is that Tachyon's presence is significant because it signifies her transistion to a leadership role, moving her closer to Team Leader Tachyon. 

I would think that Tempest would make sense for a mission to another world.  He's the only one of the three with direct experience (that we know of) with space travel, so it is possible that he went along as a the pilot.  It is not inconceivable that Tachyon managed to acquire his ship's wreckage from FILTER and restore it to working order!

Redeemer Fanatic's incap shows her crumpled on the desert sand, which could be on mars (perhaps the mars base's dome encompasses some of the martian desert?)  Or its entirely possible that the Baron has been terraforming!  This could also be related to the Prime Wardens, in that Fanatic and Tempest appear to be on that team.  Perhaps she went along specifically to watch Tempest's back?  Maybe she needed to test her faith on an alien world, under a strange sun?  I like to believe that she has devoted herself to being part of a team with the same zeal with which she holds her religious convictions, and will not let a fellow Warden go into battle alone!

Well, this answers my earlier question.  Hooray for time travel madness!

2 goals down, at least one to go

That Core #1 is intriguing. Perhaps Core #2 will be the 5 Prime Wardens (plus one more hero), 3 additional villians, and then 2 new terrain areas. This game design seems like it would work well with each set being an entry point then have things like promo packs and miniature packs be the small expansions to the series. I love the diversity that the environments add to SotM and seeing more terrain seems most likely in full boxed sets…

This is a great guess actually! 

I'm trying to remember who makes up the Prime Wardens. Haka, Tempest, Argent Adept, Fanatic . . .

Captain Cosmic would seem to be the 5th

Ah, no wonder I couldn't come up with the last one, haven't really seen much of him yet.

No one has. He first appeared in the artwork of Argent Adepts deck (Silver Shadow) along side all the other Prime Wardens. When his name showed up the Vengence Decks, and his picture on the cover for the next SotM expansion, the pieces kinda placed themselves.

And the operative adds her sword to the fight. Also the comment about the chairman makes me really curious

I wonder if characters from this will appear SotM. Or if things like promos for SotM will be part of the KS

I definitely hope so. As excited as I am for Tactics, SoTM will always be my first and dearest love.

Well, the next stretch goal has to be Visionary. I just can't imagine anyone else with that silhouette.

I think a question about promos for sotm being stretch rewards was asked and they answered they weren’t planning to

It could be a grown dreamer…

To be serious, at first I thought it looked a little like proletariat. But im 90% it’s visionary. But then I was wrong about Beacon

You didn't hear that Unity shaved her head?

Oh yeah. Her hair soon to be replaced with legions of tiny replicas of AB's limbs. You heard it here first, folks.

That’s supposed to be classified.

Anytime a major villain "disappears" in a comic, you can bet the farm that they will be coming back at some point down the road…In which case I am very curious as what Mr. Pike has been up to!

Operative trying to form her own operation outside of Rook City is awesome.

Look at her costume though. Does anyone else see more than a minor resemblance to Zhu Long? We got the Dragon imagry, the Green robe with gold accents, the redish arm gaurds…There is a much larger link going on between Zhu Long, Operative, and Mr. Fixer/DWFixer. 

I thought the same thing foote, I also think one of her men might be one of the people to stab dark watch fixer through the heart again.

See? Now that is some solid speculation!

Yeah I was thinking the same about Pike. It also reminded me of Christophers comment about Blade looking youthful and Pikes vats.

And the operative bio makes me wonder who her new under bosses are

It looks like it just hit the 95k mark, so another charcter is coming soon... though it did take a suspicious 10k jump fairly recently, so I'm not sure if someone messed up entereing $100 or if a retailer has bought an inventory (which would be awesome...)

I hope it’s real I hope someone isn’t being a jerk or making a mistake.

In a sense, with the speed the game is being backed, it doesn't matter if it's real or not, it just changes the timing! I reckon it'll go past $110k by tomorrow anyway

EDIT (Well, an addendum really):
Someone on the comments for the kickstarter is suggesting it's the minis that are carrying it over, since they usually help kickstarters do well. The thing is, most minis can be repurposed (zombies can be used in any zombie game, orcs can drift in to any fantasy game...) - it's hard to see a use for these beyond the Sentinel game, so are they really making that big of a difference?

What mini gamer wouldn't want some awesome superheroes?

Edit: Heck, I'll probably use them in RPGs from time to time.

Truth, I have a group that just started using alternity’s super hero rules. These would be great for that.

at just 1000 backers thats on average just under 100 dollars each, i dont think anyone dis the 10k mistake

Guise. BOOM. Mind blown?

number of backers times pledge level amounts = 85,010

actual backed amount = 97345

difference 12335

difference divided by # of backers = 12.20

(not drwawing any conclusions, just doing math)

And if ~1/4 of backers are from neither the US nor Canada that would account for most of the difference, plus you should take into account people forgetting to update their pledge levels when they up their pledge, or people throwing in a dollar to help keep track of the campaign.

Yes, the math does theoretically work out, but I think those who were watching the status more closely than me pointed out that there was a very quick leap of about $10,000 without a significant leap in # of backers. It looked a little suspicious.

Okay, so we got Visionary right. My guess for the next stretch goals: The Block, Ambuscade, Insula Primalis, and . . . I dunno. Citizen Shovel?

As a playtester, I'll honestly say I have no friggin idea what the 140K goal is

I already have 100+ superhero minis, which was really useful when I was running Mutants & Masterminds (a d20 superheroes game). I'd love to have more, especially cool ones that look like Sentinels. Getting to play Sentinels Tactics with them is just a bonus.

Also, I use the HP tracker mat (http://www.spiffworld.com/sotm/non-spiff.cfm) so having the miniatures to use as tracking tokens instead of tiny slips of paper would be great.

Kharnel I think we already have insula primalis as an environment, maybe we’ll get environment minis at 140k. Or at least a T Rex.

I'm guessing it's extra scenarios.

Ah, that's right. You'd think I'd be able to keep track of two whole environments. A T-Rex mini would be fun times.

Umm, It's a T-Rex.

I would guess it is some kind of environment thing.  You know, like a Big T-Rex, that eats you.

110K is clearly Guise.  That or if we get there the game actually comes in a box.

I would guess the big jump would be a retailer signing on, or a few being added at once.

Ok, there is too much story related stuff in the Visionary update to not talk about it. 

1. Events by the end of SotM will seal the timelines up. 

2. The allusion to the pull of dark energy is most certainly referencing Dark Visionary. It says she used to be very brutal to her enemies, and I'm guessing that her "dark passenger" so to speak was a reflection of her nastier side taking over. It seems she learned a valuable lesson there.

3. "She has evolved from the last hope for existence to her own hope for beautiful uncertainty." Visionary, as I have said before, is going to be a major key factor come the final showdown with the cosmic entity. She has flavor text in her deck saying how she is "all possible futures" or something like that. Her role in repairing the timelines will be big.

4. Rubix Cube? Ha

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

*collapses*

*dies*

Glad to see at least someone at >G is keeping their sanity

I think the Visionary is setting up to go Psylocke and become all Obi-wan on us.

That or something (maybe some cosmic energy) fixes her, maybe turning her into a villain?

The Operative however, how cool is she?

She's also switched up weapons, I wonder if Price of Freedom Wraith did take hers.  I know that's the other timeline, but I can't help but think there's a connection.

Also double Legacy vs. Legacy is now cannon.  We just need something saying Grandpa was involved and the 4 Legacy Apocalypse will be on!

We need more amazing art to post on BGG to fill the 9 front page image slots. A good shot of the 9 miniatures for instance. Cool art from the game. We must take over the front page!

Wasn't expecting the Operative, but I did figure it would be Unity for the 95k goal.

at 110 I'm thinking an upgraded box to hold it all?

125 - Ambuscade (2.0 with less suck.)

Instead of a T-Rex at 140...what if it were...Unity?  (and no I don't mean Mr. Chomps...or do I?)

155 - either someone new OR Mr. Fixer (personally leaning toward Mr. Fixer as he's the only one I know who uses tools and it looks like this time he's brought a shove.)

I thought that was a shovel...but then I thought "but no-one uses a shovel..." and then immediately went "Oh yeah, it's not a shovel - Proletariat, duhhh"...so either I've jumped to a completely wrong conclusion or somehow have guessed who that is ahead of all you lot, lol.

Without specifically saying it isn't storage related…they did say in a post on the 4th Update comment section…"Since people were asking about the $110k level being a storage solution, I'll just say this: the core game box IS a storage solution. It's roughly 12" by 12" by 5" and will have a molded plastic insert designed to hold all the things."

So that gives me hope its something else, hopefully further game content related…addtional hex tiles/scenarios/core game #2…etc.

I saw the $155K character being Proletariat. Looks like a stance he'd take, and he's got the smooth head we've seen before.

I didn't see the new Pledge levels till now, I'm glad they added the all the stuff level, I'm on board.

7k to the mystery box.

It is seriously Guise.  That much is obvious.

Are the heroes represented by tokens, or do they get something that goes in a base? If the former, did that get confusing at all in the playtests?

That international shipping is a total killer, but I just can't resist. Damn you Greater Than Games I am going to be so incredibly skint after this... but yay mystery T Rex!

Playtesting is incredibly basic, and the tokens we make at home will be nothing like what is in the final product.  But even with a chunk of 3-5 card with a name written on it in a unique color it wasn't very confusing.  (my first playtest was thrown together by hand, it was ugly)

Would it surprise anyone to hear that I made 3D stand-ups for the characters rather than use boring old 2D tokens?

We just hit $110K. Wonder what's in the box

I wonder when they will update. . .

I'm guessing tomorrow morning again. They like us and all, but it can wait until the morning to update. 

I’d agree definitely tomorrow, but seeing one before bed would be cool.

Unrelated, I really love to see the slow trickle of the 80 dollar pledges move to the hundreds.

Backed at the hundred dollar level with no hesitation. I've missed out on every single sentinels kickstarter, but not this time! Here's hoping we get some promos for sotm as well, maybe beacon?

Nope, no promos for SotM. Stated earlier in the comments on Kickstarter.

I'm guessing the box is gonna be just a bigger box with which you can hold both the core game and the miniatures. Just my assumption. I'd be happy with that--I'd rather carry around one box than two. And maybe it will have some extra room for expansions.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this idea debunked in the comments to update #4?

Yeah, besides, Everyone knows that box is Guise.

Also - I wonder what happened to young Vanessa, the Dreamer… I thought she would be the new Visionary, but was proven wrong. Did she merge with Alternate Future and Dark Visionary , and is Psychic Cube Visionary the result ? Maybe explaining how unstable she has become ? Would fit the "triad of women" symbolism…

Or is there a teenager Vanessa Long somewhere in the Next Generation Multiverse, ready to make her own hero name ?

Side note : I play the sims too much - since I've seen Pauline/Beacon and aging Legacy, I keep wondering who fill be the father of the next Legacy. Probably a simple mortal. Does Baron Blade have a rebel son somewhere ? Can we call him Hope ?

Well we have a 110K goal. . .

MR CHOMPS ATTACK!!!

nomnomnomnom.

Best video ever.

Also comic book story things. . .

Yes Please.  For the love of everything holy yes.

Update #5 was just posted: it's an expansion. All the unlocked stretch goals will be collected in a boxed expansion, included with each pledge level.

You even get the expansion even if you only pledged for minis!

Even if there was no game at all for this kickstarter, I would probably pledge just because of the comic book style senarios book.

Now, I have no idea how they plan to format that book, but if its anything like what I'm picturing it could be in my head, then it would be the single greatest thing ever. As much as I love the "puzzle", straight up story is so appreciated.

…

damnit. now i have to rearrange the wiki again

Craig, you know I can't read.

Heh.

Anyway, I'm taking a break from monitoring the comments. Kinda near my breaking point on negativity from idiots. I leave it to you all.

Finally got round to watching the video - lol Mr Chomps all over the place :D.

i hear you impris. thick skin time and haters gonna hate and all that jaz. were well founded and i could see at least the next stretch reward, if not even thr one after that

so their opinion matters little

So to make sure I've got this right, if you back the kickstarter you get the following:

* The backer level you choose which can be picked from the miniatures box, the core game box or a combination of the two.

** The Superheroic backer level which includes the core game + core minis AND the Uprising miniatures box (I know that's not what it's listed as but that's what I'm callin it for until told otherwise).

*** A fifth backer level (Superheroic miniatures) also exists which includes only the core miniatures AND Uprising miniatures box.

All of the above will get the following regardless of pledge level:

* The Uprising expansion box. Which you get for free regardless of the final composition and MSRP.

*The promo card pack (only available through the kickstarter or later on through Conventions appearances).

The core game, core miniatures, Uprising expansion and Uprising miniatures will all be available for purchase through normal means later on.  However the final MSRP of the expansion materials will fluctuate based on how many stretch goals are obtained.

This is the only way to get the promo pack sans conventions.  Just like all of the promo stuff from SotM.

Does that all sound right?

*edited for missed backer level*

I wonder at what point we can get minis of Unity's bots, because painting a 10mm model of Mr. Chomps is my idea fun.

Yes - getting Unity has to happen along side or first. But Mr. Chomps is all his chompy glory.

Given that it's later than the "current" SotM timeline, I wonder if Mr. Chomps can be optimized for aerodynamic flight and become Mr. Pchomps.

Fun video. As a question - how many people out there also paint minis? (I used to, before kids.)

I only recently started painting minis, I have a friend who plays a lot of 40k and flames of war teaching me. I doubt I’ll ever be used to small scale like that.

And howler that sounds right to me but I haven’t really been keeping up, hopefully someone else can field your question shortly.

Howler, you can also get the all the figures together.

Whoops!  When did that appear?  Thanks!!

Mostly correct. You can also get "SUPERHEROIC FIGURES", which is the minis for the base game characters, the minis for the other announced characters, the full Uprising expansion, the art prints and promo power cards, and the other stretch goals when they make it, but not the actual game itself.

EDIT: I have been ninjaed!

Yeah… I'm going to take a break now, myself…

It's worth it if we can help reduce the confusion, though.

Don't worry, I'm all caffeinated and ready to step up.

You paint kids now?

I'm afraid to look for myself--where are these awful comments popping up? Are they really that bad?

You just have to leave a small area unpainted, otherwise painting kids is fun.

You just need a paintball gun for the runners, and parents that get upset about art at the park.

I think my favourite complaints were the ones about how the $110k stretch goal didn't get them enough additional free stuff...

I made the poor choice and am currently reading the comments. This is not fun.

As much as I loved it, I kind of think that the Reaper Bones (original) kickstarter sort of made things worse in terms of stretch goal entitlement. People ended up getting more stuff for free in the stretch goals than they got in the original backer level!

It was kind of telling that the second Bones kickstarter went a different way, so that you only got all of the stretch goals with a much larger initial pledge.

I think people were starting to understand now and that the comment section is getting better. Unless of course while coming here to type this things have got worse, but I honestly think that the hostility has come from people misunderstanding and a small bit of entitlement.

It definitely seems that way. I think a lot of people are just genuinely confused as to what they are getting with their donation, which is a reasonable question when you’re looking at shelling out up to $100 (more for international).

Hopefully constructive, helpful comments can keep people informed and keep the community positive. I know reddit was overly negative towards the kickstarter a few days ago, and I wish most of the naysayers would take another look now that some stretch goals have been unlocked ($50 for the base game and an expansion? That’s an amazing deal if you don’t care for minis)

And yes, I think a bit of the negativity does come from entitlement. Kickstarter is supposed to be about financially supporting a project you like while getting some benefit for contributing. Not “How much free stuff can you give me?”

Anyone who says “Why would I back this? It’s going to be cheaper on amazon later.” doesn’t understand the point of a kickstarter.

ssssh The wife only thinks the daughter decorates herself

I'm confused why people might have been awkward about the latest stetch goal, in terms of actual gameplay and longevity a bunch more scenarios is going to give more to the game than some bonus miniatures. When it comes down to it, yeah miniatures are fun but if paying out that much I'd much rather have something to increase the amount of gameplay I'll get from it.

I disagree. I think it's perfectly reasonable for people to choose to back or not back a Kickstarter campaign based on whether or not they think the cost of what they will get is a good value. Further, people using Kickstarter are acting as investors, taking a risk that a product might not materialize. I think it's reasonable to expect to be rewarded for that risk in some way, perhaps w/ more product or a lower than retail price.

I agree with Arenson.

Also the intitial launch was seak on value.  I can understand the early stretch rewards being stuff you know is oging to get achieved quickly, but that left the initial pledge options pretty bare.

People reacted to that, and were right to, if they are looking to get the game for as little as they can, which I won't blame anyone for doing.

Frankly, GtG isn't living or dying with this launch, they don't need our support to be able to keep making SotM anymore, and they aren't going to run kickstarters designed to undercut retail options, they need those relationships.

Basically Kickstarter is better than taking out a loan and hoping the game sells, but there really isn't a "I need to help this company so they don't go under and stop making cool stuff" angle with this kickstarter.

Investing in this game because you are a hardcore fan who just wants the chance to throw money at GtG is a legit position to take.  A lot of us fall under that category.

Others are going to look for something that makes them special if they invest, if there is a chance to get it for less a few weeks after everyone gets it then that chance needs to be offset, and not just with art prints, with stuff that says "I'm special, I got here first"

That's what they were looking for, exclusives.  They will come back, the economics of investment are changing.

I also want to say I respect that >G is leaving SotM completely out of this Kickstarter, it would be easier to get people to buy Tactics if they threw in some shiny SotM promos or a new deck, but having this game stand on its own is awesome.

I also want to say I respect that >G is leaving SotM completely out of this Kickstarter, it would be easier to get people to buy Tactics if they threw in some shiny SotM promos or a new deck, but having this game stand on its own is awesome.

Thank you, phantaskippy.

The other reason we're not putting SotM promos or products in this Kickstarter is that we don't want to force this game on SotM fans. If you look through the rules and watch (next week's) game play video and go, "Eh, this game isn't for me," that's totally fine! But if you're not into Sentinel Tactics and you are a huge SotM fan, it would be uncool of us to offer a promo in this campaign that wasn't available elsewhere. 

If people are enough into our stories and characters that they want the game based on that alone, that's awesome. But I don't want anyone to have to buy a game they don't want.

I noticed that GtG added some images to make it crystal clear exactly what you get with each level of support. I thought it was clear before, but I also see that many people were confused.

I absolutely respect that line of reasoning, and there are definitely plenty of companies out there who would try to leverage their existing game's popularity toward this new project.

That said, I had a dream last night about there being a stretch goal where every existing SoTM promo card was a reward and I was pretty damn excited. It's normal to have dreams about board game Kickstarters, right guys? Guys?

Kharnel I wouldnt say that’s weird when order of the stick had its kick starter I had a dream or 2 about it. I really wanted a Rich Burlew drawing, too bad I was unemployed at the time.

Actually, those have been there the entire time and have been updated after every stretch goal that has been achieved.

The SotM: Tactics Kickstarter was the subject of an article on The Escapist today!  Check it out!

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/133301-Sentinel-Tactics-The-Flame-of-Freedom-Tabletop-Raises-100-000-in-48-Hours

Not to be a negative nancy, but isn't that exactly what people who aren't interested in Tactics, but interested in the story and characters of SotM have to do?

As it stands now if I want to see how characters evolve and change over time I have drop coin on a game that doesn't necessarily appeal to me. 

However if I could get a mini-expansion (or at least a promo or two) I would be totally down for dropping 125 or whatever, because now I'm getting something for a game I love, get to learn more about characters I'm interested in, plus getting a chance to try a game I was previously uninterested in, and in doing so may find out I really dig it.

The story isn't exclusive, once it is out I'm sure it won't be kept secret.

If you want the comics then wait, someone will most likely sell them, or maybe they will be available some other way.  I don't think that is being forced to buy the game.

They even are allowing the purchase of just miniatures so you don't have to buy the game to get miniatures of characters you love.

Each and every story aspect we discover in Tactics will be put on the Wiki in easy to find places for each character. It is exactly what I created the Wiki for!

What are the chances the final expansion for SotM will include some similar reading material that outlines the story we have been pulling teeth trying to piece together? It's too fantastic to have the Tactics narritive more accessible from the outset, but Im too invested in the Multiverse storyline to not crave the holes being filled in

I'm still hoping for an "Encyclopedia of the Multiverse" someday that details all the various storylines and includes artwork for all the characters and all the key moments and battles. 

It may be years down the road... but I'm still hoping.

True that, I would love a codex or something similar in the future.

In other news we surpassed 120,000, not a stretch goal but still a fun milestone.

Christopher has hinted that the full story will be known at some point... (usually with smoke bombs)

They need a kickstarter for this … they would take all my money
I think they would wait until the end of both lines (only assuming that tatics has an end like the card game)

then they can be a little less careful about what they can and can't say … if that makes sense

On another note  … I need to check my update settings … I didn't get this one either … its starting to bug me that I might have missed out on something else… (I missed out on the last lot of playtest enrollment because of this same issue)

Is it permissable to take images on the Kickstarter and repost them in the BGG forums? There are only 2 pic there and while one is currently on the front page and its listed near the top of the hotness...there isn't much content to see there and its where active discussion needs to take place if we want to see new blood. If conversations like this were over there it might strike a stronger chord with new browsers.

Also, if permissable, is it only the ones with the black tag line on the bottom or would any art be fair game?

Also also...if permissable, could some of the art shown in the video be posted so we have imagery of the game itself and not just the stretch goal stuff?

I'd love a graphic novel type deal where they do the comics, then place a page setting up the game (e.g. panel, panel, panel… Freedom 4 vs Baron Blade, Megalopolis… panel, panel, Panel… Tempest (and others) vs Grand Warlord Voss, Ruins of Atlantis)

Nope.

(And before anyone panics, yes, we did get official permission to share these. Enjoy! )

Special shout out to Rabit, Foote and Braithwhite. Thanks for helping keep the discussion on the Kickstarter civil and using correct information!

So is anyone uploading these to Boardgamegeek?

I don't quite understand their rules: Do these fit? They are not images of the game, after all.

Fixed that for ya.

Sorry - can rarely pass up a chance to make fun of BGG's interface.

As a big fan of Privateer Press miniatures, I'm definitely going to paint these minis as soon as I can get my hands on them! I just hope that I can do the studio paint scheme justice as I had been particularly bad on selecting the paint color match...

1,258 backers and one of them just upgraded and pushed it over 125K. More miniature goodness!

I’m nervous to paint them. I’m a decent artist but I have 0 experience painting miniatures so I’m scared I’ll screw them all up somehow

I'm really looking forward to the "look at my painted minis" threads that will crop up.  

Agreed!

Unfortunately, I've had all kinds of ideas for things to do, but painting/working minis is something I dropped a few years ago to better manage life.

Here's what I would love to do / see:

• Find a way to run fiber out Beacon's eyes so they glow. (A friend did this with a lich mini, once - it was truly awesome.)
• Same for Ra's eyes.
• And parts of Tachyon's costume.
• And parts of AZ's costume.
• Replace Ra's flame with a translucent, flame-like material and run a light into it so it glows.
• Replace AZ's ice effects with translucent, ice-like material.
• Create dioramas of fights of key story moments

Wow, glowing eyes and all sound absolutly brilliant! I would not trust myself to do that to a miniature that size though, not without about 20 practice runs on trashy miniatures. 

I am starting to think that I might need to build a playable 3D Insula Primalis landscape with special effects, though. I just can't resist!

So Ambuscade has now been announced, yay!

Story-wise, is anyone else wondering if Ambuscade has actually lost his powers, or whether it's just his perception of them that's faded due to his addictive personality? After all the reason he got them in the first place was because the rush he was getting from hunting reduced and he needed to hunt bigger things, maybe the same has happened with the thrill of using his powers? 

Also do we have any idea where he got them from? It just says a shady genetics company of his profile, do either Pike or Revocorp work on genetics? (Pike seems more chemicals and drugs and Revocorp seems to be A.I. And machines from what I can remember of them both). You'd think he'd have more of a grudge with the company than the heroes...

I'm sure you'll do fine and be proud of your work after all is done Just look at various youtube tutorial particulary on washing and highlighting. I just started painting minis myself last August and I must say it's a really rewarding hobby.

Hey, worst case scenario you can always throw the minis into simple green overnight and strip all the paints away

Well if it was Pike who gave him powers he doesn't really have anyone to be mad at.  Unless he's the reason Pike never resurfaced.

See if anyone in your area has any spare figures from the Reaper Bones kickstarts that they'd be willing to pass your way. I have a couple of pounds of the things that are redundant to my existing collection and are never going to get painted. I'd happily give some of them away to a novice painter who wanted to practice.

Seriously, if anyone in Austin wants generic fantasy figures from either of the Reaper Bones kickstarts, PM me. I don't need all the ones I have.

I'm planning on learning with some cheap plastic army men. Got a billion of those things.

How much affect does the terrain have on the gameplay? Right now we have Megalopolis and Insula Primalis. From what I've read thus far my impression is that in a skirmish they would functionally just provide a varying arrangement of hights accross which the battle rages. Is there more uniqueness to the terrains in scenario/story play? For instance would a Rook City environment really play much different then Megalopolis?

That said...if there is uniqueness, I wonder which other environments might be brought into play (probably not until Core #2 though I'd be stoked to see that as a stretch goal too).

Right now its a city and a wild jungle as options.

Some environment decks don't seem like they'd scale well to Tactics terrain hex scale.

I don't see Blade's Mobile Defense Platform or the Freedom 5 tower translating well (given the Freedom 5 tower is currently represented as about 4 hexes big). It would be cool of the Mobile Defense Platform were a separate hex piece that had rules for moving over the other terrain...a moveable section of level 5 height or something that can be moved by the villain across the battle field.

Storywise I don't see the Wild West or Final Wasteland envrionments available given the story hints so far show a contained single timeline.

I love the effect environment decks have on the Card Game and I hope that is still felt with Tactics.

Atlantis seems really big, I could see it being a thing.  Rook City vs. Megalopolis would be different if they add different hazards or targets or modifiers to the game.  But even the way the city is set up can create a lot of difference in the fighting.

I think they mentioned hazards in the rules PDF.

Ooh, resin! I have resin!

Not that I can afford the minis. 

Not that I can really afford the base game, to be honest.

But if I do get it, AZ's totally getting epoxy resin ice. 

I love the look of Tactics Ra!  Can't wait to see more of that design.

Yes! Resin!

My brain just could not process that word for some reason.

It's been a long couple weeks…

There's even some resin with the brand name ICE, I believe. :)

So seeing that not many are interested on the Ambuscade update...

Anyone think that he will be a pushover villain ala baron blade? This is not a coop game though so for balance purpose most likely BB and Ambuscade should have a much stronger power base... So I'm looking forward to that :D

Also it seems to me that over 5 years Ambuscade has upgraded his hunting tech weaponry, any thought?

Neither are pushovers.  Stealth and explosives are very different in a hex game than a card game, and it shows.

Since every hero/villain will be player controlled, I doubt any of them will be "pushovers".  I'm sure we'll see characters cater to different playstyles and some perhaps requiring more thinking/risks to tradeoff more power.

Please let the next stretch goal be more environment tiles! Eight tiles are not that many and I can see things getting crowded on the board with more then 3 players involved.

Please, please, please more environment tiles!

In practice, it's actually a really good size. More than that, and it's just bigger for the sake of being bigger. It would artificially slow the game down.

must…resist…inappropriate…comments…

Really. Low hanging fruit. And more comments.

I'm easily amused, apparently. 

At least, no one I've ever pulled it out for has complained yet.

No, but I bet people don't exactly marvel at its hugeness.

Well I haven't seen an actual game in action. Perhaps you have had a chance to play test and liked what you saw. I am not saying that the game won't work just fine the size it is. However, I have played quite a few miniature games and there are several advantages to a bigger board. It is not just bigger for bigger's sake as you suggest.

1) A larger area gives you more room for tactical maneuvering allowing for greater strategies to emerge. Especially when new/different combinations of characters are employed.

2) You can adapt and play larger games or have more variety in the terrain when you maintain the smaller size. Playing on the same board is totally fine, but who doesn’t want more variety.

3) With bigger you normally get a grander thematic feeling. If bigger was just bigger than why not just have Omnitron occupy 1 hex? Is he just bigger for bigger's sake? No! He is soooo much cooler being the big robot that we imagine him/it as.

Yes, games will go faster if you have an artificially compressed battlefield. Area of effect powers will catch more bad guys (or god guys), the enemy is always within range, etc. I know that I can use one of my play mats to create my own environments to play on (and I probably will), but they will never be as cool as ones created by GTG. Even now I can see Spiff creating maps to be printed on card stock and cut into game pieces, so maybe that will be the answer to my desire.

At the end of the day what really would be wrong with more terrain?

I wasn't making a blanket statement. Not to put too fine a point on it, but I have played it and I responded from a position of knowledge. I'm not saying it's a correct response for every tactical game, just this one.

WOW! I'm sure that you didn't mean it, but that was snobby. I have played the game, you haven't, so I am right and you are wrong. I withdraw my request. You know best.

I'm sure that's now how imprimis meant his comment at all. The problem is, any attempt at explaining properly why eight hexes is enough ends up looking like this:

[quote="waedens"]

1) A larger area gives you more room for tactical maneuvering allowing for greater strategies to emerge. Especially when new/different combinations of characters are employed.

[/quote]

Well, with at most five characters on each team you don't really run into this problem, plus with the speed the game runs at you could end up with situations where you were spending turns and turns just moving, which would get dull (especially for poor [REDACTED]. Plus [REDACTED] could [REDACTED], and [REDACTED]'s [REDACTED]s can't really [REDACTED] very well, and [REDACTED]'s [REDACTED] really stops cutting it.

[quote="waedens"]

2) You can adapt and play larger games or have more variety in the terrain when you maintain the smaller size. Playing on the same board is totally fine, but who doesn’t want more variety.

[/quote]

Yeah, variety is good. That's why we have more than one environment, and that seems like the best way to expand the game. Megalopolis and Insula Primalis really do feel different; Megalopolis is all [REDACTED], while Insula Primalis is more [REDACTED], and has [REDACTED] and a goddamn [REDACTED].

[quote="waedens"]

3) With bigger you normally get a grander thematic feeling. If bigger was just bigger than why not just have Omnitron occupy 1 hex? Is he just bigger for bigger's sake? No! He is soooo much cooler being the big robot that we imagine him/it as.

[/quote]

Omnitron's not bigger for coolness. He's bigger because it's thematic; Omnitron is friggin' huge. This is further reflected in that he's [REDACTED], and between those two he's really [REDACTED], which sort of counteracts his [REDACTED] and [REDACTED]. These arguments don't really apply to environment size.

Which is, as you can see, less than helpful. By far the easier, and just as helpful, response is to say that while you may have experience in tactical games in general, we have experience with this one, and we're doing everything we can to make it as awesome as possible, and if it needed more hexes, someone on the playtesting forums would have suggested it by now, and they have not. That's not snobbery; that's fact.

So it really isn't the size of the board that matters... 

...it's how you move your heroes around on top of it.

Dear BHM, That was snobbery and that’s a fact. Your attempt at justification cannot change that. There were many more civil ways he could have responded. It was unfortunate that it came from a moderator. I appreciate that you are trying to come to his defense. At this point I am just chalking it up to me catching him at the wrong time. I have to say that the playtesters here seem really defensive. Was there some attack on the job you did that I am unaware of? I fully expect that everyone did everything they could to make the game awesome. I also understand that sometimes decisions about components are made for business reasons that cannot be helped. I will just hope that Spiff will come up with something or that I can order extra tiles as replacement parts if I want them. If you do not want more environment tiles that is fine. I can still want them. You can think that I am wrong and that is fine. I am just disappointed at the response of a moderator.

PS - "Omnitron's not bigger for coolness. He's bigger because it's thematic; Omnitron is friggin' huge." You and I are saying the same thing here. thematic = cool.

Just FYI, playtesting for Tactics has been going on for awhile and is not closed (though pretty much in the tweaking things phase at this point).  I personally haven't seen any posts that made me think any playtester was being defensive; there wouldn't be a reason for any of us to be so.  I honestly think you interpretted that comment differently than it was intended but it's not a big deal.

I will say, to your point, that I have played a number of games with 5 characters per side and felt that 8 tiles was more than sufficient space to give solid tactical choices (but I certainly wouldn't be against more)

I feel the game gets bogged down a bit with more space, and cramped quarters is a ton of fun.

That said we hit 140K!  Time for the Dinosaurs!

140! 140! 140! 140! 140!

It's Dinosaur time

Edit: Operative'd

Anyone think there's a chance we get an update tonight? Or will we have to wait til morning?

Every update has been in the morning unless it occurred in the mid-afternoon. I would guess tomorrow. 

woah, calm down, bro!

You asked whether the board was too small, and he said that it ends up working fine for the game. That's not getting defensive, that's answering your question.

Then he gave several examples of why the size is best the way it is, but – unfortunately, seeing as the game isn't out – some of it had to get redacted for non-playtester eyes. (Redacting every other word is kind of a running gag, here; you should probably get familiarized with our community before you go around calling people snobs because they made a joke.)

Edit: Ecch, I, too, got Operative'd.

waedens wrote:

You might want to avoid sweeping statements. I'm pretty sure I, for example, haven't been defensive about it at all.

My personal opinion? While more boards for variety would be great (for different scenarios, configurations, etc), I don't think the game needs a bigger play area. Anything more than a certain size and you spend the first few turns just getting to your opponents, needlessly lengthening the game. I want to start and bam, get to the fun part of beating each other up right away!

While I know it's a tactical game - I think its fair to say that most comic book battles have only a few panels before the punching begins. I prefer playing on the Ogre map over the GEV maps too!

Overly large maps won't work so hot with the game system being used.  Range is largely determined by your dice roll, and without special rules attacks are limited to 6 hex range.

The characters that get special rules would gain incredibly from starting the game farther apart, while faster characters would do fine, but some characters might spend half the game trying to get to the action

Whew.  Tensions are getting a little high in this thead

I think we're all just a little antsy about the 140K update, which is understandable; I too feel the dangerous urge to headbutt a brick wall in sheer anticipation.

We hit another benchmark, folks!  That's exciting in itself.

I find it less inflammatory to state one's opinions and feelings than to make claims about another person and or his/her statements.

For instance, I think I would find it more palatable if someone told me that my remarks made them feel as if their opinions were being dismissed than if I were told that I was being snobbish.

I am very excited for Sentinel Tactics. One concern I have, however, is that every game will quickly devolve into all of the characters running  up and just trying to hit each other as hard as they can. Though a playtester, I've only played a handful of games and all of those were skirmishes rather than scenarios, so I hold a lot of hope that with more experience I'll start to see more (as well as more nuanced) tactics and strategies in my games.

I wonder if the OPs point about a larger game board might, indeed help. While I agree with other respondents' that at least some if not most of the time having a larger board will simply mean a delay in the action getting started, I can see room for other situations -- things like leading part of the opposition a significant distance away from a crucial point on the map or splitting one's characters such that an opponent is forced to comit to two smaller skirmishes rather than one larger one.

To divert things back to the kickstarter, update 7 is up!

Advanced rules for the environments, they could be fun but not as fun as having a T-Rex model

Oh, I'm sure that'll be a future goal - here's hoping we can get to it!

I have to admit that every time I see the outline for the $155k stretch goal, I keep thinking of William H. Macy's character in the movie Mystery Men.

Monorail!

What's it called?

Monorail!!

Once again

Monorail!!!

From the Kickstarter comments regarding questions about the environment tokens:

GreaterThanGames: "These elements are all tokens. For now"

That "for now" seems extra sly.  Here's to hoping a future stretch goal is dino/monorail mini's!

I've got some plastic T-Rex that will fit.  I love the Environment additions, this is going to be awesome.

Skirmishes:  Heroes vs. Villains vs. OMG THAT DINOSAUR ATE LEGACY!!!

One you have the rules, finding a playing piece should never be the hang-up.  Unlike the characters, who would take some time and effort to find and repaint analogues for, dinosaurs are widely-known, so there are always some good options.  The only trick would be making a base of the right size.

As for the next stretch goal, it's clearly Proletariat, which is awesome - always good to see him getting some love.

Question is a villainous or a repented Proletariat as both would be awesome.

I hope there is a way to get ahold of multiple Proletariat mini's.

Doesn't he make his own? 

The 600k stretch goal is that the Proletariat mini has a built-in 3D printer

In theory, outside of Scenarios, Heros and Villains are balanced against each other, so a Tactics Proletariat should be able to be played alongside a group of Heroes regardless of what he is in the story.  For that matter, you could have Citizen Dawn join the Freedom Five against Baron Blade, if you wanted.

That point aside, I don't see a silhouette on Uprising that looks like a bunch of dudes, and the bonus characters thusfar have gone Hero-Villain-Hero-Villain, so I'd say the smart money is on Proletariat being a Hero right out of the box.

The hero is the Dinosaur.

Also it is pretty easy to have a hero be a villain or villain be a hero in Tactics.

Since they are played by a player no matter what they are interchangable.

You can team up The Operative and The Visionary to take on Dawn and Tachyon.  It works.

Scenarios have rules and miniony things to make a villain a match for multiple heroes.  The skirmishes are balanced for each character, so it doesn't matter.

Depending on teh rules you could swap in a villain for a hero in a scenario, it would work fine.

That's one of the awesome things I look forward to with Tactics, once people get their hands on it I can't wait to see some creative fan-made scenarios.

Oh no! The Wraith has been seducing The Operative's boyfriend. It's now up to The Operative, The Visionary, and Baron Blade to put a stop to The Wraith's seducing ways!

Please don't publicly discuss scenarios that aren't available to the general public yet. This scenario is the culmination of the [REDACTED] story arc!

Something I'm slightly confused about - if the scenario book is already planned out for Uprising, doesn't that already lock in the extra features? It makes sense for the environment rules to be something in the expansion (i.e. no scenario in the core set involves the monorail), but if the stretch goals are all things that are already planned for in the expansion, what happens if the kickstarter ends and not all goals are reached? Does it mean the planned expansion 1 will get broken up? Will some villains originally planned for expansion one have to be released separately?

That said, I'm not the biggest fan of Kickstarter as a concept - I get it from a games company point of view, it lets them get income earlier in the development cycle, and allows them to have a bigger initial print-run, but the stretch goals sometimes seem a bizarre concept with people getting more free stuff becuase other people buy the game. I get games where they upgrade components (economies of scale allowing plastic coins as opposed to cardboard chits for example), and I'd love to either see standees for Heroes, villains and minions as a stretch goal, or maybe hero/villain cards with the health as a dial, but the current goals feel more like content reveals. Not that it's an bad thing to do - with the Sentinels lines being so story led, it's actually fair enough - but it falls foul of the slightly absurd expectations people have of a kickstarter

The weird thing is, it seems like some people would be happier with extra maps that don't have any relevance to the game, than for the extra characters, whilst the fans of the cards want stuff purely relating to the Multiverse. It's making the comment section interesting...

I, too, look forward to the opportunity to pit The Shoveler against such fiends as Baron Blade.

Please, someone, make this happen

I'm pretty curious about that too; I have a feeling the Uprising stretch goals they have planned will get reached, but if for some reason they don't, I'm not sure what their plan is.  Make the scenario book shorter?  Add "Uprising mini expansions" later on to fill in the gaps?  Maybe give them all to us anyways for being handsome good sports?  Only time will tell.

Stretch goals get the backers involved and put a bit more "word of mouth" pressure on them.  If there were no stretch goals, I'd back the project, do other stuff for 30 days until it was over, and wait patiently for the game to arrive.  When there are stretch goals involved, I'm active in the comments section and am representing Sentinels flair on BGG and doing my best to support it indirectly.  It can seem like scummy business; getting the fans to do your advertising for you, but I kind of like it.  It feels like it brings the community together a little more as everyone is hyped up on speculation and doing their best to indirectly/directly support a project they feel is worth it.

Yeah I've definitely taken note of that.  Especially concerning the recent environment interaction update for the 140K stretch.  I saw that and said "awesome."  Others saw that and said "Wait, so its just more rules?  Lame."  I like the idea of getting more scenarios and more elements from the multiverse woven into the gameplay; other people just want more characters/maps.  And I understand that; getting more characters is awesome!  But, we need more depth too; a game is never great when it spreads itself extremely thin with tons of characters but doesn't have the core mechanics to support it.

Pretty close: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/yachtclubgames/shovel-knight

I think from GtG point of view, the more important effect is that they know what size print run to order. The larger the print run, the lower their per-unit costs, and the more things they can include for the same margin. There are other economies that come with scale, too, like shipping.

In the case of Sentinel Tactics, my understanding is that miniatures have a large fixed cost to create the molds, and then lower per-unit costs; so the more people that buy the product, the cheaper it is for them in the end.

I see your point - I'm a touch jaundiced by hearing a guy talking to Tom Vasel about "how people who don't do KickStarter are missing out". It sounded like he valued get caugh up in the initial excitement more than the games themselves, whilst I view it from the other extreme, that the experience of buying it is irrelevant to owning the game (and the game's qualities). I quite like the fans acting as advocates and I can see how it helps, it's more the attitude to the stretch goals seems off and divorced from reality! There was a washing machine scandal years ago in the UK where a promotion wiped out a manufacturer (Hoover Free Flights Promotion), and sometimes you get the feeling the fans think they're entitled to a lot more than what represents value to the company. $40 for the base game + $10 shipping seems about right for a retail release, but because other kickstarters have been ludicrous, people are complaining about bad value… admittedly, there is a delay between purchasing and receiving the product from Kickstarter, but is it worth that much? How many people pay for holidays months in advance?

That's what I mean - Argent The Consortium from Level 99 upgraded components as Stretch goals as the higher numbers of pre-orders made them more viable. I'd love to see a stretch goal here of XXXX EU orders allowing GtG to ship from within the EU - that, standees and a game play video would probably convince me to pledge (I'm not keen on getting hit with the import charges by the post office…), but it's the customer attitude that is a bit rank in my opinion. Heck, some of these people deserve to have new pledge levels as stretch goals so even though stuff is getting unlocked, they actually have to pay more to get access to them…

Did you see this thread?

Hmm, I never heard anything regarding that guy saying that to Tom Vasel; what was the context of that quote?

And trust me, I have plenty of apprehension when it comes to Kickstarter.  I made a comment earlier in this thread voicing my disappointment with how people treat Kickstarter campaigns these days.  I believe I ended up saying something close to "People who go onto Kickstarter trying to get free stuff don't understand the point of Kickstarter." Some folks on this thread disagreed with me, and I see their points as well, but I still stand by my initial feelings.

I understand backing a project imposes a risk and that there needs to be an incentive system in place to reward those who take that risk.  I'm all fine and dandy with that.  It's the (as you say it) entitlement that I have a problem with.  The fact that people who already spent their money to back a project sit around and wait to get more stuff and then complain when they're cut off like an upset drunk.  And as great as stretch goals are (who doesn't like watching the amount of content they get for backing go up as the campaign goes on?) I believe they are to blame for this attitude.  Stretch goals have created little monsters in all of us, and because some campaigns have had the balls to offer stretch rewards at ridiculous levels, people now expect it from every single campaign.

But I still firmly believe that Kickstarter was founded on the basis of supporting the people and businesses that put their projects out there, because you believe in them and because it is a mutually beneficial way to both get your game/product, ensure the company is successful from it (therefore ensuring they continue to make more in the future!), AND get a little bit of extra stuff as a small "thank you."

People looking to score a deal or to save money should wait until the game is out on Amazon or even just buy it used if they really want to spend wisely; Kickstarter is not the place to make a bargain.

I don't know; overall, I love and hate Kickstarter.  I love what it stands for and the basis on which it was found it, but I hate what it has become and how it has transformed into a tool for consumers to seek more and more with little regard to how it affects the company they "claim" they're supporting.

But those people are necessary.  Kickstarter isn't so much about believing in people as it is about allowing people with talent and ideas to curcumvent the normal obstacles that crushed such ambition in the past.  The Person starting the Kickstarter takes far less risk than they would getting a loan and hoping they can sell their game, and bypasses the incredible amount of hoops you have to jump to get your game published by a company that can get it to the audience you want.

Whether they love your idea, love the idea of getting free stuff or just have a weakness for throwing money at anything they read on the internet isn't important, the final result is what matters, that creative people are getting their ideas to people who can fund them, reaching all sorts of audiences easily.

The "what will you give me?" crowd are like fair weather fans of a sports team.  The "real" fans may find them distasteful, but their money is still green.  The more people jump on board for the wrong reasons the more the people who got on board for the right reasons benefit.  I think >G walks the balance beautifully, throwing out value, but not the exclusives that make it suck to be a month late to the table.

As a person who jumped on board during the Shattered Timelines Kickstarter I wish my Printer Studio Young Legacy and Beardy Ra Promos were replaced by the real deal, but that's the only thing I haven't assembled that someone who was onboard from the beginning would have.  

And I don't disagree with any of that  Not by a longshot.  I guess you'll have to trust me when I say I'm usually the one to defend the "general audience" especially in the face of gamers (and other groups) wishing they'd just disappear.  I often point out that if that sheer amount of people spending money on your hobby failed to exist, your hobby likely would too.  When Envisioner was around he loved to voice his distaste for companies catering to the "bottom rung" and I was certainly on the opposite end of the argument (but that's neither here nor there).  I truly know that the mass consumer makes the world go 'round and that in the end, money talks, not honesty or good intentions; I was an Economics major, afterall

But, those feelings inside me still exist.  I understand that people buying movie tickets to the new Spider Man movie just to watch stuff blow up are the only thing ensuring that my favorite comics still get made.  But that certainly doesn't mean I won't be annoyed whenever they go fumble their way onto the internet and misrepresent the fanbase by spouting out whatever incoherent BS they can muster.

Same with Kickstarter.  I'm so so so glad that so many people are pledging to Tactics.  But when a certain group of those people spout hateful comments or complain about the lack of free stuff they're getting and that they "should have just waited to get it on Amazon," I'm most definitely going to shake my head in disgust.  Like I said before "I both love it and hate it."  I love Kickstarter for the opportunities it creates daily for projects/people that would have never in a million years seen their dream realized.  I love that the general audience IS backing such an amazing thing.  No matter what their intentions are, I'm glad their money is showing up on the pledge counter (and I'm sure >G loves it too).  But by no means does that mean I won't get an urge to punch people through my monitor when they act like a bunch of brats over the internet.  I can't help these feelings of passion!

Here's a quick insight for all you awesome people into how we planned the Uprising stretch goals for this campaign:

There were a number of characters that we really wanted to release, ideally together, and ideally around the same time (or shortly after) The Flame of Freedom. We had basically three options:

1) Release each character as a separate mini-expansion, then release PDFs of scenarios online.

2) Bundle all of the characters together into an expansion, including the scenarios.

3) Some combination of 1 & 2 (i.e., put some characters and their scenarios into an expansion; sell the rest as mini-expansions)

Our preference is #2 because, if we are able to produce enough volume of an expansion, the per-unit cost is lower than producing a bunch of separate mini-expansions, so we can sell them for a lower total cost, and put them in a cool box to boot! However, if our capital is limited, #1 is a better option, because we can space out the printing of the mini-expansions rather than outlaying the money for printing them all simultaneously.

Kickstarter is super handy for us because we can figure out which option makes better business sense; the better the Kickstarter does, the more we can afford to spend up front on the expansion. As more characters (or environment effects) are added to the expansion, the included scenario book grows along with them. Any characters that aren't unlocked as part of the Kickstarter will be saved for future mini-expansions or the like (if the game is popular enough to justify them), along with their associated scenarios, if any.

Dan - it was the most recent podcast by BoardGame University:
http://boardgameuniversity.libsyn.com/ (episode 30, Richard Bliss)

It's an interesting listen, though I find myself getting a little 'allergic' to the guest!

Paul - Thanks for that. Is there a plan for stretch goals if all planned characters are unlocked? Also, will the Uprising minis be grouped and sold separately (Uprising mini-pack?), or when Uprising hits retail, will it automatically include minis?

Gameplay video is up, be prepared for magic and explosions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzbrrjOTEpQ#t=90. It is also on the Kickstarter page.

Man I wish I had audio right now This is going to be a long day.

@VioletSilence

The Uprising miniatures will be packaged and sold separately.

Has anyone figured out what the picture behind the stretch goals is? I think it looks a bit like AZ but it’s not clear and it doesn’t look like tactics AZ.

Hah, I didn't notice! We might get a better idea after we get the next stretch goal and get another line of images.

I'm pretty sure that's just the megalopolis image as a background to the stretch goals

I think so too. I took another look at it and thats what I saw. I guess I was hoping there would be an easter egg there

This is great information!  Any chance of something like this going in one of the updates, for any backers who aren't forum regulars?

I posted a link to it in the comments. But yeah, an update would definitely be more readily accessible by those folks coming into the Kickstarter later.

A question, are the included heroes and character tokens "standing up" tokens? Something like those found in Legends of Andor?

I really hope GTG is able to get actual gameplay footage up after this weekend to appease the people who are disappointed with the video posted yesterday.  I completely understand where they are coming from; if I didn't have access to playtesting and hadn't played, I would just look at this as a *very* simple game and not see how the interactions and powers work.  It's hard to justify backing at full retail with limited information.  Maybe considering showing a couple of examples of power cards on the KS?

They posted an update about the FV on ks. It makes me wonder if the Cosmonautilus is the final battle. The government wouldn’t be scared of superhumans if they saved the earth from a giant evil entity from space.

Or the Cosmonautilus uses superhumans in its plans like Apostate like has been speculated

Lets not forget Visionary. We have yet to see how her tampering with Dark Energy affects the SotM story line. I have a hunch she plays a MAJOR role in the final expansion. It could make sense that the governments view of superhumans didn't change because of the actions of supervillains (they had existed for a long time), but emerged from someone they trusted being the cause or the catalyst for this apocolyptic event. Would explain the distrust

That’s a good point. I had considered it but I think Fanatic a more likely candidate because of her connection to Apostate.

I love how the updates are giving everything away without giving anything away. We still don't know what happens but we can see the effects, it's a perfect Christopher style update.

I don't know about a gameplay vid - it'd possibly be better (and maybe easier) to do a video for a single character, and show how their turn worked. It's one of the things about TableTop in than whilst you see the game in motion, a lot of the show is more about the actual interactions between people (which is why some games won't work on it)

I'm guessing good gameplay videos are quite hard to do. You want to show some, but not too much to make it boring; you need to give closeups of the cards and dice rolls from time to time; and so forth.

And you need the people in the video to know what they're doing, to be clear and animated, to sound excited, to be appropriately friendly with each other, and to make the game look as much fun as it is.

That guy with the monotone voice who sounds like he'd rather be doing anything else but he's tolerating being here because you promised him Twilight Struggle later if he just tries out this fun new game with you? He should probably not be in it.

I recommend at least one girl in the video, because that can really help women gamers (who often feel marginalised and ignored and under-represented) to feel connected to a game. But don't make a fuss about her being a girl.

just over $1000 away from Proletariat reveal, and new stretch goals!

FTFY.

It's odd, I feel more excited to see the next set of silhouettes than the reveal of what the current stretch goal has been up to in this new time.

$447 til we get the next character and new silhouettes. Anybody have a guess on what any of the next set of goals will be?

Probably clones, so Proletariat doesn't have to fight alone.

That’d be perfect. He can’t do anything if he doesn’t have those so adding them fills out his character

Stretch Goal 155K knocked down.

NEXT

Proletariats it is. But the new stretch goals are intriguing. The first set of silhouettes are the silhouettes in the background of the uprising box but the second set of many shadows looks like a mix of new characters and old ones (wraith). Maybe 185 is grown unity and 200 is her bots?

The new goals are up.  Man I have no clue what they could be.

I'm going to guess 1 is scenario minions miniatures, 2 is Unity, and I say that because I think I see a Raptor Bot in 3.  3 would be the bots miniatures.

Top middle of 200K is raptor bot.

The unknown future is a goal level where the >G crew actually shatters the timelines to see what kind of games they will make in the future, giving us first dibs on the Post-Apocalyptic gaming options.

My guesses.

1) Citizen Dawn Citizen Mini's

2) Unity

3) Unity Bots (Looks like an old wraith image in there too, with the raptor bot, being Stealth bot)

Bottom left is stealth bot and bottom right is swift bot. I think so anyways.

Also Unity!!!

Good question - I'd been wondering that, myself.

So, Proletariat is revealed!  Good old Proletariat, though it seems I was only half right about his being a Hero now, which seems fair.

The next set of stretch goals look pretty neat - all those little shapes were hard to Kim Howell at first, but if you look at just the image and zoom in, the first one has a bunch of what seem to be sets of two or three figures smushed together, including a three-headed one with long-fingered hands and a two-headed one with a halberd.  So, pretty clearly, that has to be a bunch of Citizens.  And "who is Slash's partner" posters take note - one set does appear to include a figure with Wolverine claws alongside someone else.

The other multi-image set is even more exciting to me - it has a bulkily armored-looking shape, something kinda anglar but posed as a speedster, something surrounded by either a cape or shadows, and (half-hidden by words in the top center slot) what can only be a raptor.  That's right, y'all - Unity is on the way.

The lone figure between them is, ironically, harder for me to nail down.  It appears to be a woman with shoulder-length hair, wearing either a short skirt or shorts (possibly the bit I see as a divide between clothing and legs is a utility belt).  My best guess if Miss Information, followed by Ermine, but neither really feels right.  I am open to theories here.

And more to come!  I estimate this KS will end up around 250,000, which means Greater Than Games will have to fill in that ambigious final slot and then some!

EDIT: Of course - first Unity, then six Bots.  How silly of me.

There are 13 citizens in the card game, 9 shown.  I wonder how many have changed? 

In the Bots picture the top left one, who could that be?

Bottom middle seems to be turret bot, I agree with stealth and swift rounding out the bottom (that one on the right just gives off that "I don't like explosions in the lab" vibe)

Top we have Raptor in the middle, leaving Cryo and Champion, I'd say the one on the right is Cryo, which would make the weird thing Champion.

I am confused, maybe she changed her bots?

There are much more than 9 shown, several of them are grouped together.

By my count, we have 16-17 shown.  The top row has a figure I cannot see clearly (might be two Citizens, might be one) at far left, followed by the four Seasons.  The bottom row has all the classic Citizen sets (Truth/Dare, Blood/Sweat/Tears, Attault/Battery, Hammer/Anvil, in that order), with the addition of Slash/Whatever second from right.

So, that's all the old faces, plus 2-3 more (Slash's partner, and whatever is going on at top left).

Oh good call on Citizens for the first new goal.

Now that I look at it, the second from the left on the top definitely looks like Citizen Spring (the skirt gives it away; I don't know who else wears a skirt in the Sentinels world?) That'd be really cool.

Phantaskippy, the next stretch goal has some silhouettes with what look like multiple heads. There are some with two and some with three so it looks like we’ll have all the citizens and maybe some other sorts of minions. New drones for omni? New trips for Blade?

As for the bots it would make sense for unity to change how her forms look.

I'm not seeing those each being two citizens.

Champion bot has a billowing cape, thats why his shape is so weird

Seriously or kidding? You're not seeing the additional heads and legs? The most obvious one is the second from the right on the bottom row.

The thing that looks like a farming tool could be a person. . . but I don't see them making the citizens paired up, esp. Truth and Dare, while the seasons all go independent of each other.  To me it looks much more like people with heavy equipment.  I'm leaning towards a more generalized scenario Minis set that would include Citizens.

I was wrong about the cape. All the bots are posing based on cards in their corresponding deck. Legacy for example is in his pose from Inspiring presence

I think based on where the compaign is it that we will get to the 200k goal.  I just wonder how much beyond that it'll get

Last 48 hours with all those extra minis will see a rather size able push. If we can reach (presumably) Unity by that time we will be in a very solid place. 

I don't know, man, 2 days for another 15k seems iffy; especially considering it took 3.5 days to go from 140K to 155K.

But, I'm hoping your intuition is right.  I can see the extra minis giving more current backers incentive to upgrade to the super heroic packs, but as far as fresh blood goes, that will continue to come in at a slow trickle (since that largely comes down to getting the word out there).

This campaign will clear 200K easy.  Good timing for word to get out, a big thing will be after PAX, see how many jump on board then.

Would it be terrible for me to putty up one of my Proletariats to be wearing gold parachute pants?

Hammer time.

Whoops, I forgot about PAX.  Good call.

Oh ye of little faith. Sit back and watch the magic 

So my earlier guesses were mostly wrong (ok I did get Ambuscade and again I hope he has less Suck - considering there seems to be ranged involved, I think he'll play out MUCH better in Tactics than in SotM)  The Environment Effects made me grumble a bit, but I'm glad that they are there.  While I wish it were Mister Fixer for the 155 stretch goal - The Proletariat with 6 minis does seem like a better upgrade.

Update 8 talking about the happenings of the universe seals the deal for me, I always love knowing what's going on, and I'm glad the story will continue in Tactics beyond SotM. I really wish we got more story somedays, so I'm looking forward also to the comic book like instructions.

So this is what I think are the next stretch goals

170 - Everyone is saying "The Citizens" I like this answer and I'll lean toward it.  Initially because there were only nine sillouettes I thought "Oh the Ennead! We've got Ra so who better for the FV and Ra to fight against."  However, Dawn does need her own posse to roll with and with everyone pointing out all of the random heads arms and legs poking out of other places, the Citizens does seem like a better answer.

185 - I'll say Expatriette.  Here's why. First  Ambuscade's character is a character that would benefit from switching weapons and making "ranged" and Melee attacks.  The Sillouette for the 185 character is drawn in a way to hide what could be important details.  While one hand looks like its on her hip - the other hand looks...big. Is it a hand cannon? Is it a bazooka?  Expatriette would be another "Gun Toting" character that could switch weapons to affect different ranges and different tactics as well as benefit from different weapons and tactics.  Sure powers could be changed/adapted to represent these things, but she's also one of a few characters who people are polarized on from the card game.  At the same time - a character that would probably play very differently on a tabletop version of the game.  My only other guess at the moment? Unity. Why? See below.

200 - Unity's bots make sense as that does look like raptor bot in the mix of them as well as the original FV.  However shouldn't there be a Unity Sillouette included?  If not... than that would mean that 185 isn't Expatriette but actually Unity and her bots would be another goal altogether (lets face it, if you didn't get a plush Mr. Chomps over the holidays, than how could you say no to a miniatures version of Mr. Chomps?)

The gameplay video showed hex tiles, but I believe those are prototype components. I have no interest in getting the miniatures (I'd never get round to painting them, and if I did, I'd get somewhat concerned about trying to carry them anywhere in case they got scratched and needed to be redone…), but I'd worry about how easy it was to spot targets rather than effects if they're both 2d. That's one of the questions that is keeping me on the fence about backing the game (the other being about the issue of import charges biting like it did when I bought a game direct from a different company… only to spot the game in a shop when I went to buy extra bases for the standees at quite a bit less than the total I had ended up paying… Had to laugh at that one…)

For a game like this - and I pledged for the minis for the love of painting minis and for the love of SOTM - I think that the best bang for buck are cardboard upright counters in plastic bases. Something akin to the original editions of BattleTech. The more the play area resembles a sandbox, the more miniatures make sense. The more it looks like a gameboard, the more counters make sense. Easily grasped upright cardboard seems a nice balance here.

Still, backed it to the fullest extent already...

Ok. I keep updating Kickstarter and checking my email today because it is killing me to know Ra's story. Christopher, if it's not shown by PAX, I may hunt you down before I even check into my hotel.

While you are at it, please get the story on Freedom Six Wraith: Price of Freedom… been waiting over a year for bio updates on all the Freedom Six in general, but her in particular…

Ra was the Hero I picked the night I first played SotM and is still my favorite (with Parse and CR fighting it out for 2nd place), so I also would like to hearwhat Tactics-Ra has been up to.

Ra was the first character I played, also. Many moons ago in a demo at the debut GenCon.

Tempest was my first, and was instrumental in convincing me that SotM is an awesome awesome game.

I really wish I'd played Argent Adept, because there's a perfect pun opportunity right there which I'm sad that I had to miss. 

I think that AA was my first hero, up against Miss Information and we lost.  With an intro like that, I'm amazed I'm still playing.

I have no idea who my first was, there have been so many since then all of them have blurred together into one massive cluster.

Please tell me you’re not still clinging to her being undead/raised from the dead/some other variation of zombie.

If the cap fits...

Absolute Zero was my first and I instantly loved him, so I'm rather happy with the update with what he's been up to... and he looks pretty good in white.
Although now I am just really impatient to find out what that next unlocked stretch goal is. Waiting is harrrd!

Add 10 more minis to the pile!

Extremely cool, but oy, those are going to be a pain to paint. :)

You know, this is beginning to add up to a pretty bodacious pile of minis we're going to get. :D

The more minis that are unlocked, the more attractive the pre-painted minis are. They would have been wise to set the price point with an eye for where they think the stretch goals may end up. And I believe they are wise =)

Unless the "Unkown Future" stretch goal is that the pre-painted minis will be cast in solid gold, I still have a hard time seeing it.

My first hero was Legacy, and unlike a lot of people who find him boring, I loved him, and still do.

After that I jumped straight to Zero, and he remains my favourite. Really interested in any story that Christopher will give us on any of the characters!

Hah! I was right. Citizens.

And suddenly it makes sense to me why the Season's and Truth and Dare aren't paired but Anvil and Hammer, Blood Sweat and Tears, Assault and Battery, and ... slash and????? are - their cards (well except Slash and Unknown!) are all paired with each other when they are out they have grouped effects. Seasons do not, and Truth and Dare remove the other from play.

But the new Citizens of the Sun (RISE!) uniforms are pretty sweet, and I can't wait to learn the name of Slash's partner! (With blade arms? I'm bettin Hack)

Allthough I'm missing Blood's top hat for a deadpool look. I thought the tophat was awesome.

Hack and Slash sounds like a good match. Like I posted on the kickstarter, we've been thinking of Slash as the first in the set, not the second.

Man, 10 extra mini's really made the value skyrocket for the "with mini's" pledge levels.  And they're all looking awesome.

If Unity Bots add 6 more, we'll be up to 35 mini's, and that is just awesome.

How many more times can I say awesome?

As many as possible!

I know I say 'awesome' most often when GTG are involved.

Mostly because Paul and Christopher say it a lot...

Actually, if that adds Unity's Bots then we'll be up to 36 minis, you forgot to include the 1 at 185k.

Not that you would necessarily buy all these superhero miniatures - unless you were running a SotM campaign - but I think there's a pretty strong argument that the $100 level is now "Buy these miniatures for slightly less than retail, and we'll throw in this cool game for FREE!"

Nicely done, >g.

$185k breached, closer to those mystery goals again

@Koga: Yes, you're right.  How could I be so blind.

@Matchstickman:  As fun as reaching a new stretch goal is, I think I'm more excited to reveal the next group of silhouettes; it's fun to speculate with other fans as to what those might be :)

Yippee Unity unlocked with minis for her bots at 200K

It could be Slash and Burn, if slash is indeed first. Usually the citizens have differences, hacking and slashing are quite similar. 

But we've seen an image of Citizen Slash (as a mini-nemesis), and he does not have huge blades on his hands.

They are as similar as Assault and Battery

I have to confess that I've never looked at a Sentinels character as eye candy until today.

Wow.  Unity.  New favorite hero.

If they have a picture of her in a lab coat I might need an ambulance.

I would like to know why Unity's goggles glow

I've looked at a Sentinels character as eye candy ever since I say the Cursed Acolyte. He's so freakin' hot!

We've also seen an image of his partner - in the Citizen's Minis, the parther to the one that is Slash has two long blade arms. 

This is not burn

sigh The first time I did that was with Setback.

I'll just leave this here and be on my way.

This coming from the "Busty Backer" 

Excessive Awesomeness.

Unity looks great. And it looks like i’m not the only one who thinks she should be part of the official team.

It’d be funny if Unity had been a mini expansion twice

Now I’m curious what happens after 200k

I'll admit I'm not a huge fan of Unity's outfit. Not only is it very pink (which I will admit she would totally wear), but I really liked her previous outfit. She's a builder and a mechanic, plus a teenager (young adult now) she should be wearing something a little less "superhero Costume" in my mind.

I get why she's wearing it, I agree this is completely what she would do, but I prefer the younger Unity's look. *shrug*

That was years ago.  This Unity is a powerhouse, confident and in your face with her metal constructs.  It fits her really well.  She's not the little girl just looking for a place to play anymore.

Maybe, but I also like the visuals of old Unity better than those of new Unity. New Unity looks like she's trying to start a relationship with.... somebody. I just can't decide whether I think it's somebody on the F5, Beacon, or somebody else.

Edit: Cleaned up a funky turn of phrase.

Ha. I cling to nothing… Just really really curious about what her deal is because she seems so different than her old self. 

I like the new Unity's look a lot as well… though I agree that it just doesn't seem as unique as her old look. But I get it. She is bona fide superhero material now. 

I love the touch with her adding the "I" to the end of the belt, which she claims stands for "Intern" (sneakily turning the FV into the FVI)

So the new stuff is an add-on pack.

First I totally understand the reasoning behind it and approve of how they are handling it.

I am a bit sad though.  The whole shebang with painted minis is now up to $350 which puts it out of the "maybe if I cut this and skimp here I can get painted minis."

I'm balancing the idea of dropping the minis all together and going the $90 for everything but the minis route.  We'll have to see what all gets added and how much finagling I can do with finances, and how much goodwill I can build with my wife before decisions have to be made (2 weeks, sheesh)

Lastly, the poster maps.

I really like the variable maps, but for the scenarios it would save time to roll out a map and anchor it instead of build it.

I'm wondering if future expansions will include only poster maps, or if those are just something special for this.

I have a feeling they are specifically for this: They are significantly cheaper to produce. Of course, the art, playtesting, and printing of the scenarios is probably the largest expense…

@Rabit

Were you one of the ones talking about trying to make custom dice for this game?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/customgamelab/custom-game-dice-you-design?ref=discovery

Just throwing it out there. Saw it during lunch.

Looks like I am going to up this to $140. I can image some grand scale fights on a 24 x 36 playing area! With some luck they will be printed on both sides. That would make the $140 feel much better. Even if it was just a big picture of Legacy on the opposite side it would be pretty cool. As it is we will probably get something on the order of 10-15 figures and 2 posters plus 2 corresponding scenarios. Not too shabby if it all comes to pass. 

Yeah, as it stands, even without new scenarios, I've got months of exciting gameplay ahead of me. Not to mention how nice it's going to look on the table. I'm looking forward to many more expansions.

Oooo…  Shiny!

Thanks, Foote - I'll take a closer look when I get home. I appreciate it!

Cool. I mentioned the idea of making custom dice in the Kickstarter comments too and some people there seemed interested. If you need help coordinating production and stuff, I'd be happy to help, Rabit. 

I may be interested, as well. Depends on how soon after this Kickstarter it'll be.

What sort of custom dice were you thinking?

Honestly, I'm not going to have time to coordinate much of anything in the immediate future. (In the middle of a move plus work plus... )

If no one else has picked it up in the next month, I'll definitely look at it.

My thoughts were to have sets of dice specific to some of the heroes. For example, I wanted a set of cold/ice-related dice for AZ, fire-related for Ra, mechanically- and/or gun-oriented for Bunker, pink with bots for Unity, etc.

I figured Legacy would be covered with the red, white, and blue dice that come with the game.

I imagine many folks wouldn't be willing to buy dice for all the characters (and I'm probably one of them, to be honest - that's a lot of dice!), so there would have to be some kind of analysis of interest levels (a poll of the options, with the top two or three being pursued), something like that...

Maybe we need a Kickstarter! 

Honestly, i may just end up waiting until GenCon and doing a dice pull at a booth. I'll be happy if the colours are right.

I would like a single dice for each hero for their on card movement recording (I use different dice for each hero's move, roll the regular dice but record it on the special ones.

I want a Tachyon move dice that show a sadder Tachyon the lower the number gets.  I'm sure that is reasonable.

For me, the second expansion's going to have to wait until retail.

I'm not even sure I can afford the base game at all right now, being unemployed for the rest of forever due to a chronic pain/fatigue condition. I'd absolutely love to get the minis, but that's almost certainly not going to happen.

Still, at least I get to playtest it, right?

Whoah, hold up.  The what now?

I would be totally up for a "Superheroic Combat" option, as I don't have the resources to paint minis or the money to get painted ones, and I'll take colorful tokens over white figures any day.  I've been frustrated that such an option isn't available, in fact.

Where are you seeing this "everything but the minis route," exactly?

On an unrelated note, I am deeply relieved to see >G separating further stretch goals to at least need a little more money to help cover production and shipping - it would be a crying shame to see this become the next Ogre, bankrupted by its own stretch goals.

The 50 dollar pledge plus the 40 addon pack gets you everything minis the minis. Well, you get whatever is in the addon pack at that point

Ah, sure.

But you still wouldn't get any of the Uprising stuff, so it's a long way shy of "everything," or am I reading this wrong?

Heroic Combat comes with Uprising. Check out the visual guide closer to the bottom

No, the uprising characters/cards.secnarios (everything but the minis) are stretch goals for any reward level, including the $50 pledge

$50 for the base game plus Uprising, and $40 for the add-on pack, right? That's everything except the minis?

Edit: Double ninjaed. 

"What do we want?"

"MORE STUFF"

"What do we want to pay for it?"

*Grumble....*

Damn the conversation on Kickstarter is kind of depressing!

As one of the folks grumbling a bit after this latest update, my biggest issue is the funding model of "Pay $40/$100 now.  If enough people do, this add-on pack will be worth the money you are paying."  I think there would be a lot less negative reaction if they just realeased them as revealed addons and not strech goals.  Right now you are paying 40 buck for the Blade Battalion.  That, to me, is crazy

Well, just like at the start when people complained about what they would get for their investment, whenever you start a new set everyone gets all "OMG $### for just that?" but then when more gets unlocked they jump on board.

What I find funny is the backers who dropped their bids alltogether after the announcement.  Suddenly the bid they put in wasn't worth it because there was new stuff that wasn't included at that level?  wth.

For me it means I'm priced out of painted minis.  I can't go with some painted, some not.  Right now I'm all "I'd rather not get the minis at all," but I'm just going to wait and give it some time, or I'll go to PAX, see some minis and get all crazy about them and start practicing on my Zombie hordes form Last Night on Earth, hoping that I can learn to paint them well enough that I won't hate the results if I paint heroes myself.

Hey, fair enough.

This Kickstarter is still, I'd say, gaurenteed to pass $250,000.  And there's two weeks left.  It's no harm to anybody if you just wait a week or so to see what gets unlocked, then go for it - and, in the unlikely event that you don't think it looks like much of a deal then, there's surely no requirement that you pay for it at all.

Ha. That's usually why I just put a pledge in and avoid reading the comments as much as possible. 

Oh, I have no doubt enough people will jump on to unlock stretch goals for the next pack.  I'm just saying the model and the way they communicated it caused a lot of unneccessary animosity, IMO.  I've played the game and am still in for my full pledge with no intention of cancelling.  I can just understand where the people who are very unhappy are coming from

In for $350 myself, luckily I'll have a few paychecks between now and then to get ready for it, get paid weekly.

I'm getting really confused looking at the comments, it really seems people just want to hate.

Some people are complaining about being "misled" due to there being additional payment for stretch goal.... um, I have never seen a miniatures based Kickstarter which doesn't add optional cost add ons, Super Dungeon Explore for example you can easily go over double your original pledge with theirs.

Also cmschex, your idea doesn't really work too well when broken down. >G don't really do exclusives or discounts, so everything we get from this has to be the same as it will be at retail. A few individual packages per stretch goal with all relevant packaging etc would be more expensive in the long run than putting everything as one package, so your idea could only end up costing more. I'm sure Paul even said something along those lines earlier in this thread in regards to the expansion before.
Sure, right now it seems pricey, but it won't be in the end, which is exactly how this whole kickstarter has played out too, so it shouldn't have been too much of a shock.

Will the new add on be available later for retail as is? Or will kickstarting provide anything that isn't in the retail (such as the extra power card per hero?) Have they clarified that?

The difference between this and the first $20 increase for the expansion minis is that the stretch goals added content to both those who did and didn't pledge at the increased levels, leading to a funding model where enough stuff was unlocked to make it a no-brainer for people to increase their pledges (if they wanted minis).  This current increase is asking for twice that amount, includes both minis and scenarios (which potentially alienates people who don't want the minis), and is relying entirely on attracting enough new backers to reach the stretch goals to make it worth the price of the addon.  It looks likely to get that way, but I've seen stranger things happen on KS.  The real downside is that if it only hits 1 or 2 more stretch goals and the value isn't there, then people who have increased for this tier on speculation of future goals will (I am assuming) drop from this tier, which will dramatically alter the funding in the last hour.

I'm not saying that this option, will, in the long run, be a bad deal.  But right now it is, and I just wanted to make the points that regardless of the business sense of the approach, the way this has all been communicated has obvioiusly left a negative impression on a fair number of people

Fair point about the combination of minis/non mini stuff, also it seems that painted Blade Battalion doesn't come with unpainted ones too, which would mean fewer figures than the standard painted set, which I would find frustrating if I was a backer in that tier.

Maybe it would have been better to do it as two add ons, one for minis one for non-minis. Then you could purchase the minis twice if you want to complete the set of having both unpainted and painted, just once for either painted or unpainted and then purchase the non-mini stuff separately too, which fits much better in with previous backer options.

I have been thinking about it and if GTG really wants to add some juice to the $40 add on there needs to be some exclusive content. That may not be a popular idea, but that is a big reason that people go for kick starters. Let's face it you can buy Vengeance for $25 on Amazon right now. Some exclusive content would really sweeten the deal. Now I am going with the $140 anyway out of loyalty to the company that produces a product that my family loves. However, I have to be honest and admit that if all the add on only has the blade battalion and one poster map I will probably be one of those people dropping back down to the $100 level. If it hits the dino minis I will probably hold at the $140 level. 

Well, on the Vengeance front, you paid more for retail price + shipping but also got 2 promos that, while not KS exclusive, are hard enough to come by that they sell for 50-70 bucks each on promos.  So I think the value is there for paying full retail plus shipping in the instance.  In this case, there are no additional promo items you are unlocking and we don't even know the ultimate contents of the add-on pack.

We're already getting 15 promo cards and you want more?

I absolutely disagree with the idea of Kickstarter exclusives.

It's unfair for international people who have to pay so much extra for shipping, and it's unfair for those people who don't discover the game until after the Kickstarter finishes, or who just can't afford it right now. Why should they miss out on the cool stuff?

I've probably said this before, but I can't understand the mentality of people who want their nice things to be owned by fewer people. Do you really take more pleasure in your shinies if Joe Bloggs is denied them? I want as many people to have the fun stuff. It doesn't affect my gameplay at all if everyone has Awesome Promo X as well as me.

Apart from the question of fairness, exclusives make bad business sense. Why? Because so many people will decline to buy the game at retail if they see it as "incomplete". Sure, exclusives might make the Kickstarter campaign more successful but you've got to look at this long-term. 

Seriously, are you all so convinced that GTG can't ever do anything less than optimally that it is that hard to understand what I am saying?  I am NOT asking for more promos, I am talking about the concept of value that waedens brought up when referencing that Vengeance can be found online for $15 less than what was paid in the KS campaign.  With adding Vengeance, you got additional value in the promo cards for paying full retail + shipping.  With any pledge level, you get additional value in the promo cards and expansion material.  With the add-on, you (at current information revealed) get no additional value for paying full retail price + shipping over 15 months in advance.  Therefore, all I have been saying this whole time is that it is understandable that some people are less than excited or even upset about this.

No-one's forced to buy the add-on. Think it's not worth it? Don't buy it. Why are people upset?

Adding in exclusive content penalises people like me, who can't afford another $80 right now and will have to wait for UK retail and therefore miss some good things.

As for discounted games, if you can get a game cheaper at retail then that's because the retailer's taking a hit on it. 

Fortunately, GtG agrees with you!

My apologies to Ronway because he tried to unpublish this post and I accidentally republished it.

And now for something completly different...

I am not sure how hard to do this would be from a logistical point of view, but I can imagine that there would be some interest in an 'spare miniatures add on' for this Kickstarter. I mean, there must be some people out there who would like the option of just buying an extra Raptor Bot, or would like to have a spare Bunker so they can paint one normal and one battle damaged. Or even someone who wants a painted Operative shipped out with their add on pack in July, just because they really don't want to draw that dragon tattoo. I can even imagine people shelling out a few extra bucks to just get the mini of their favourite character, although they are at the 'game only' pledge level.

Ok, I'm bowing out of all ST kickstarter conversations of this nature.  I've stated my opinion and feel like it's still being misinterpreted, so there is not a lot of point in continuing to debate.  On BGG this project is getting a lot of negative attention and have been posting there defending it, yet here I I am voicing some concerns and I feel like they are all shot down.  I feel there should be room for a middle ground between the two camps.  

I don't think they should have added anything more. This Kickstarter was for the core game, and they set a target for the amount of money the needed to get the game made. Understandably that original target was just to simply get the game made at a basic level that would be adequate for production. I think that's what Kickstarters should be... and people back the project because they want to see that game made as described. Then, stretch goals are set to improve on that game... basically all the things a producer would have wanted to put in the game if they were able to have the money for it. So as pledges come in and you surpass your goal, you begin to hit your stretch goals and get closer and closer to that ideal game. This should all be laid out and planned ahead of time. I believe GTG did that. Once you have reached enough funding to make everything you planned... Well, you simply stop. Mission accomplished. You have raised the money to produce what you need to produce. No need to scramble for additional goals in order to raise more money just to meet those goals you scrambled to create. It's only gonna come off as rushed and probably be I'll received by a lot of people and create negativity that isn't necessary.  I think that's what happened here, GTG told us they got to the end of the planned line for this particular Kickstarter and rushed in to try to appease the horde of stretch goal fiends that Kickstarter has created. I think that was the "mistake" (I put it in quotation marks because I don't really think it was a mistake in the sense that it was the wrong thing to do, but more in the sense that it may have created more headaches than it is worth)

If at the end of a campaign where you have achieved your goal to find the shiniest game you had planned to make, you find yourself with a lot more money than you expected and you want to really thanks all those people who believed in you and your product... throw a little something in for all your backers, and THAT can be an exclusive at that point, because that really is a "thank you".

I greatly appreciate you trying to have the conversation, cmschex. Seriously, I think it's just a difference of understanding on expectations for Kickstarters, why we back them, and things like that. As with so many topics like this, it's all about perspective.

No, of course not - they're human and they make mistakes. Their past Kickstarters showed that (because they lost money in some cases by putting too much "free" stuff into it), and they tried to learned from them.

They are trying to ensure this Kickstarter does specific things, such as gauging interest in the game and not causing them to lose money as a business.

I think that latter part is what conflicts with what some folks are asking for. >G is trying to ensure they can cover the costs of the extra items they throw in.

>G has, on a number of occasions, said that online sellers are going to sell for what they want - >G has no control over that - and that when they do that, they are probably selling it at virtually no profit, if not at a loss.

And that's been true for virtually all Kickstarters: If the product is commercially available after the KS, it's probably going to be available somewhere else for cheaper. That's nothing to do with the maker of the item, it's just the nature of Internet commerce.

If that is a deciding factor for folks, they probably shouldn't get into the Kickstarter. >G can't sell the product on the KS for a loss - that's pretty much the opposite of what they are trying to do.

Yeah, I definitley understand what you're explaining, and I understand why folks might not be excited about it.

But I don't understand why people would be upset or be as venemous as they have been on the comments. If someone doesn't think there's value in the Add-Ons, they can ignore them. No value is lost in what they were already getting and nothing was taken away. And after the Kickstarter, they can get those items once they are available. (And, as you noted, they might be able to get them for even cheaper.)

Fundamentally, I think this point is what's confusing myself and others. People are saying they've been conned and things like that. I've had it explained as to how they got to that place. I see the gaps in the logic that got them there, but explaining those gaps will not make a change - once we, as human beings, have a concept in mind, someone explaining how it is wrong will not change it.

As to the value of the Add-Ons, looking at the Kicktraq estimates, I personally believe we're going to hit all four of those Add-On goals and probably more, so we'll be getting the Blade Battalion, 2 poster environments (probably MDP and FV Tower), and (probably) figures for the environment-related items (dinos and such), in addition to anything else that we get over and above that. Right now, that sounds like a lot of stuff for $40, to me, so yeah, I'm happy with it. In fact, my bet is we'll be getting far more than I'll be able to get for $40 once they are released to stores. But I'm looking at where it's likely to go; if folks want to look at only the current state, that's their call - I have no control over their choices, but I can see why they might not be excited if they're only looking at current state.

I just don't understand why they're getting upset…

While I'm against exclusives…

I'm torn on this.

I think it would have avoided some of the negativity, but I also think there would have been complaints that there wasn't more stuff being thrown out as we went along. I haven't run a KS and I don't know what kind of data they have available, so I can't say what the right or wrong decision is.

The perils of living in our post-microwave society I guess

Rabit, thanks for taking the time to respond at length.  I think this all boils down to communication - at the core, many people read the update as saying that they were paying $40 for shipping because the add-on pack is coming later. However, I would also say that GTG brought some of that on themsleves by having a pledge level that said you would be getting all stretch goals, then going back and adding more stretch goals that you had to pay into.  If they had either made them addons from the beginning or just not had any more stretch goals, I don't think you'd be seeing the negativity.  (I'm not saying the former is economically viable for them).  Anyway, the KS is obviously incredibly successful, so at the end of the day this doesn't matter beyond how people percieve GTG.  I want what I think everyone here wants, which is to have people have a good opinion of an excellent game company.

I think whatever complaints about the Kickstarter Add-Ons are negated by one simple fact: All of it will be available for retail purchase.  Think $40 is too much?  That's fine, wait until the add-ons are available at your FLGS and purchase them there.

But I have a feeling, in the end, that the $40 will end up being a great deal (if you take into account it covers a second shipping cost as well) even if it doesn't appear that way right now.

GtG asked for an extra $20 for Uprising Mini's.  People hummed and hawed and cried.  But now, that $20 is getting you 17 mini's.  And the original "outrageous" cost for the Core set mini's is now getting you 19 minis.  That's a ridiculously good price.  At $40, if the first row is unlocked, that'll net you 6 blade battalion mini's, 2 environment maps, and (what appears to be) environment mini's, and who knows what else.

I don't know, I somewhat understand the complaints and the confusion that's happening, but at the same time it comes down to an extremely simple decision: Pay to add on more stuff or wait and get it retail, with the possibility that the cost for all the add-ons retail will likely be more than $40 total.

And I agree; people cancelling their entire pledge over it?  Just...wow.  If that's all it took for them to cancel their pledge, it sounds like they were just looking for an excuse to back out.

Yeah, I think better communications of what was going on would have helped.

I also think many of the folks who are being negative would probably have found something else to be negative about. Seems to be the way of KS.

Totally agree!

I think everyone concerned about having exclusive content in the add on needs to keep in mind how awesome GTG is. I missed the shattered timelines kick starter literally by less that a week when I first discovered SotM.  So I missed out on the promos for Shattered Timelines. However, they had a pre-order for those of us who missed out and it included all the promo cards. 

There is obsolutely nothing that says they wouldn't do the same thing here. In fact their track record says that they probably would. 

In the meantime having extra promos would give that feeling of more bang for your loyalty over people waiting for rock bottom price on Amazon. Maybe I am wrong. That is just the way I feel. 

They did the same for the pre-order of Vengeance (allow those who preordered from the site to get the promos)

Yep. I got everything that I missed out on from the kick starter that way. 

Sure, preorders are a possibility. But that doesn't help people who also miss the preorder, and it doesn't help international types at all.

I desperately wanted to preorder Vengeance. But that would have cost me the price of the game plus $40, and I just can't justify that over waiting for UK retail and paying UK MSRP.

Any completely-unavailable-otherwise exclusives would have cost me essentially $40. And my friend who wanted to buy the base game at the end of last year when it was out of stock everywhere (and therefore had no need to buy an expansion just yet) would have been completely unable to get any exclusives despite loving the game. And that sucks.

Pushing for exclusives essentially shuts us out those of us who don't Kickstart because of timing, or shipping, or similar. Why do you want to do that?

What you are talking about is a very philosophical thing. What you are saying is that if everyone can't have something than no one should have it. I don't agree with that point if view.

What I am talking about is doing something to make the add on more palatable to more customers. In you case you will not be getting it no matter what. Ok I respect that. I would love to have a nicer car, but we all have to live within our means. That doesn't mean that GTG shouldn't do something because a certain set of customers can't afford it. Heck I would love the painted minis, but again out of my price range. At the end of the day all the content (even the promos) will be available for purchase.

What GTG needs to do is what is best for their business. I am just saying if you want to make this kick starter eve more successful exclusive content (in the short term) is the best way to do it. 

Ah! I think I see the difference of perspectives, here.

The goal >G has set isn't to make this KS get as much money as possible (i.e., "even more successful)." Their goals are to gauge interest in the game and get sufficient funds to run the first print of it. They've already met those objectives. Yes, they want to keep us interested and excited, but - from what I understand - they are not willing to put out exclusive content to do that.

Because they also want to build a community of people who like (or even love) their products and they feel that creating exclusive content divides that community, something they are trying very hard not to do. So the community objective outweighs interest in pushing the KS higher.

That's my perception, though - I don't know how close it maps to reality, so "mileage may vary" and all that.

Hi Rabit,

I'm not sure that is totally true. If they really didn't want any exclusive content they would not include any promos at all. In addition, they would have already reprinted and made available the promos that many of us missed out on. Young legacy is one of my daughters favorite characters and I would love to be able to give her the promo card for her birthday (May 9th by the way). I can't. I understand it was a reward for someone who was with them from the beginning. 

So now they are in a tough spot and I guess we will see how things go. The problem I was trying to address is how to make the add on more interesting as there is quite a bit of backlash about it. Just my thoughts. 

Definitely understand. Yeah, hopefully they'll find a way to respond and help alleviate the concerns being raised. It's a shame this had to happen as they were heading to PAX East - talk about bad timing.

Hey, if it helps you any (and you haven't heard this already), they are planning to reprint all the promo cards in the future, once the storyline has completed.

I think it was someone on the DiceTower, or maybe Giant Fire-Breathing Robot, who said the best way to do KS exclusives are "time limited" - your exclusivity is a period of 6 months/1 year from the retail launch of the product. It's less valuable than true exclusives, but still gives people something for backing the product without permanently denying the wider audience.

In terms of internet retail being cheaper than bricks and mortar, it's not the case that the internet sells them at a loss, as generally their operating costs are lower. You don't simple pay for a game - you pay the wholesale cost of the game, plus the costs of storing and shipping the stock, the staff wages (and benefits), the costs of the store and other things, plus the profit margin. Internet retailers can make much more financially efficient use of their space since they don't have to worry about presentation (and have fewer staff in relation to how much stock they carry). I suspect games companies could undercut internet retailers selling directly, but doing so would undermine the retail/distribution channels, so they'll generally sell the game at MSRP and add exclusive extras (promo cards etc), and retailers take on some of the storage burden btu can discount

Back on to Sentinels - I was underwhelmed by the first game-play vid. It felt like a collection of people rolling dice. The second one (Baron Blade scenario) was better, it gave a better feel for how it plays, though it would be nice to maybe edit some graphics in showing a power card or two in detail, and maybe cutting away in to someone's though process whilst making a turn ("Well, I switch this power out because..."). That's moved me towards backing the project. One thing I still have reservations about is the use of tokens for the characters (which still seems to be the case in the latest update) - you can see in the second video someone hit some effects tokens reaching to move their character. Stand-up cardboard pieces would look better, and be more user friendly (I suspect they might also help visually impaired gamers if all characters/targets distinguish themselves like that)

Regarding stretch goals and the new add-on pack, I think something that too many KS backers obsess on is free-stuff, rather than better stuff! I kept an eye on the KS Campaign for a rival company's worker placement game, and they had some goals that added more things in, eventually including an expansion (available for a higher pledge level), but quite a few goals were things like replacing wooden pawns with plastic figures and replacing cardboard coins with plastic, once they hit a point where economies of scale let them do so. This campaign has added stuff, eventually completing the planned versions (which I said to someone on FaceBook that it's a strength and weakness of GtG - they bind the games brilliantly to story, but the story also constrains what they can do with releases). I dislike the idea of poster maps - my brother and I had Marvel Superheroes from TSR back in the day which used paper maps and they can only survive so much folding and unfolding, so I wonder if a stretch goal could be having them in a board format somewhere along the line? Or maybe have the poster maps as a KS 'exclusive', with the retail version printed on to the same material as the playmat for SotM?

Would we be allowed to suggest things for the add-on pack or would that go against forum rules?

Yep. I know. That was one of the reasons I didn't understand all the backlash against the promos as they are really only temporarily exclusive content.

It is sort of like being a play tester you get to play the game before everyone else, but eventually we all get to play. 

It's a slightly grey area, I think. If you suggest any game mechanics or other game design elements (character backstory, color suggestions), it could potentially lead to claims of ownership if those happen to be things that GtGs actually intends to put in the game. 

Suggesting that you'd like to see lots of minis or you'd like to see improvements to the quality of card stock, boards, or boxes seems to me like it would be no problem.

Yeah I have no idea what they mean by "poster maps".  Maybe someone can clarify; do they literally mean "poster material" that you would roll/unroll/fold/unfold?  If so, I would absolutely love one of the add-on stretch goals to be double-sided hex tiles for the (assumed) Freedom Tower and MDP maps.

But, we'll see what happens I guess.

To my knowledge, no one knows what they mean by "poster maps" yet. 

SotM promos aren't the same at all. They've always been available to print at home, so no-one's missing out on them, and they aren't exclusive. And the physical card isn't even necessary to play that hero - I played for months on G+ with nothing more than bits of paper with the promo powers scrawled on until I got them myself. I don't know what the plan is with Tactics power cards, so I can't comment on that. 

I actually got a handful of promos at the Games Day in London in October, for example, from Christopher, despite not being an early adopter (two expansions were already out before I'd even heard of the game) and being unable to Kickstart any >G products because of the cost of shipping.

But physical objects that affect gameplay that only the select lucky few that either live in the US or have lots of spare cash can get? Not cool. I want EVERYONE to have the cool stuff. That's much better for the game as a whole rather than only a small group enjoying exclusives while the rest of us play a strictly worse game than you. 

And as I said before, exclusives help the Kickstarter but actually put off retail customers. It sounds crazy, but a significant number won't buy an "incomplete" game at all. Why alienate potential customers?

I have an extra copy of Young Legacy - it's not an official one since they're rarer than hen's teeth and twice as expensive. It was printed via Printer's Studio and while it's distinguishable by the fact that it has a slightly more matte finish than the originals, it looks like a professional card. If you'd like it for your daughter, I'm happy to send it to you. 

In an RPG context, it refers to a mat that's printed on a single sheet, often about 24x36 or so, as determined by sheets of US letter paper, that needs to be folded or rolled/unrolled. I used to have several from running D&D game days, but purged out my 4E stuff over the summer because I hadn't gotten to play in a year or so.

That makes me think. I have a giant clear, eraseable hex mat. Definitely want to put that over some maps for Tactics now.

Silverleaf, I guess I would be happy to take those exclusive promo cards off your hands. GTG has never come to a convention within 500 miles of me, so I have never had the chance to see them at a convention and get any of the exclusive stuff like you have. 

As it is I'll have to wait. Is it fair? No, but that is how the cookie crumbles. I don't see where it says that not having the promotional cards will ruin the game. My guess is that you will be able to print them off and be playing with them within a day of them shipping. 

The offer of young Legacy is very generous. I have a print and play version that we use, but nothing professional. I would be happy to pay for shipping, but I get a little worried about promoting unofficial cards. I don't want anyone thinking about setting up an underground market place...

Thanks for the offer.

Sure, I'm good with promo cards that don't have to be shuffled into a deck and that are available to print, or are available to buy/earn later - i.e. Not exclusive. And you're right, the game plays perfectly well without them, but if the game wasn't better with them they wouldn't be much of a reward!

There are plenty of Kickstarters out there offering things to backers that have a real impact on the game that no-one else will ever be able to have, and those people who take great delight in the fact that they own said objects when other people don't. Any suggestion of selling the things they got for free is met with with hostility because my things aren't as good if everyone can have them!

Look at Agricola, with the so-called exclusive animal-shaped meeples. There was a huge outcry when copies of the game including animerples became available to the unwashed masses, with people feeling betrayed and cheated and as if their game was suddenly less fun to play because someone else's copy had something other than the standard cubes as well. And I simply can't understand that attitude (although I understand anger at a perceived broken promise)- it seems miserly and selfish to me. I guess others disagree.

If someone bakes me a cake it still tastes just as good if they baked a cake for everyone on my street as well. I want cake for everyone. 

I've never really had a problem with Sentinels games being cheaper outside of the Kickstarter.  I've not been much of a customer to Greater Than Games over the past few years.  I've been an investor.  They provide a commodity that I want and I want to share with others.  I've backed international shipping, bought a game to donate to a local game store, and driven to a couple of conventions to discuss the game with its creators and fans.  If that means that I'm not going to get the game for a smaller price, than so be it.  It's a sacrifice I'm happy to make.  If there are others out there who don't care for this and find it to not be worth their time or money then that's fine.  It's their time and their money.

Kickstarter's stated goal is to "help bring creative projects to life".  While I appreciate a good deal as much as the next Sentinel, I have never gone to fund their projects because I thought it would be cost effective.  I fund them because I want them to exist.

I have much the same mindset, Reckless. I backed GSF for minis, despite the fact that I've never been a minis person. Same with Tactics. Interestingly, I was the 3rd Tactics backer, before I looked at art or anything. My pledge has only got up and will stay there.

But I also know that I do this because of the company more than the product. I love SotM, GSF, and Tactics, but I like the people behind them even more.

Sure, I wouldn't want to make money out of it anyway - Printer's Studio essentially repeated my order since I had a few cards that weren't printed perfectly, so the extra YL didn't cost me anything. It'd be me sending a gift to a fellow forumite, and if you want to cover shipping that'd be great.

>G guys, I assume that you'll let me know if that's not acceptable.

Upon a little reflection I did want to clarify that I completely understand the frustration of international shipping.  It's insanely expensive and no one likes it, least of all the >G crew.  I didn't want anyone to think that I was saying that international backers just needed to suck it up and pay an extra $40 without a thought.  I'm happy that I was able to help someone get a copy internationally, but $40 was no joke!

[/quote]

O n the flip side though… is your cake less tasty because you found out that last week they were serving it with ice cream as part of a promotional sale to get the word out?

I absolutely understand your point about people clamoring for more exclusives being a bit silly (and definitely selfish)… but at the same time, I feel that to some degree people clamoring for past exclusives to be made available to everyone to also be a bit silly as well. The existence of exclusives does not make the game you purchased any less complete. 

EDIT: added quote since there were like 5 posts added while I was typing and I have the terrible habit of not quoting. 

Hi Reckless, I wish everyone thought like you did. The main reason that I am posting is that I want this add on to exist and not collapse under its own weight. I am guilty of loosing site of that and saying I would back down my pledge if it looks like it won't "be worth it". I am going to have to recant that statement and just count on the awesomeness that GTG always delivers. 

I can completely respect that perspective.  The Greater Than Games team has always blown me away with how expertly they can craft a Kickstarter, so I may be taking a leap of faith with the $40 add on.  An informed leap of faith, mind you.  But a leap of faith, nontheless.

Yeah, that's what I thought - it's more of the former, though it's an extrapolation of existing things in Sentinels and something that could maybe be added to tactics, rather than "Hey, how about adding this hero that I've invented myself…". Will sit on it for a while.

Will keep asking for standees though - arguably they compete with minis, but I'm not keen on using tokens for heros/minions/villains/golems etc

In the interests of fairness, I want ice cream for everyone too, if it makes the cake better. Some people seem to want other people to go without ice cream just because they have ice cream.

I'm actually fine with exclusives that don't change the gameplay. Upgraded components, extra tokens, swag dice, art prints, nifty little bags to put your meeples in, free candy in every box, whatever. But once you get to items that actually change the game, that's when I draw the line, since without them your game actually IS incomplete. Sure, it still works, but it's incomplete, and people clearly feel strongly about that.

I don't think it's silly to want to collect everything for a game you love and want to support. 

Exclusives, big reward deals and such might get you a big number on your kickstarter, but what it won't do is give you a predictor for future non-kickstarter success.

This Kickstarter is not an attempt to get enough capitol to make Sentinels Tactics, it is just the best method for >G to test the market for the game.

If it does well on Kickstarter because they gave some really cool SotM crossover rewards or a bunch of exclusives then they didn't get a good look at the future of the game.

This Kickstarter is going to show them the viability of different strategies and products, like whether painted Mini's would be worth making a product they sell with a later expansion, or if poster or hex block maps are a better way to do their maps., as well as give them an idea of how big a market there is for the game.  It isn't going to tell them how many people love exclusives, or how many people will buy a new game to get SotM promos.

This isn't a small company willing to do anything to get you to buy their game so that word gets out and the game spreads.  >G has been there, they aren't there anymore.  They aren't going to make a big investment with little profit now.  This is a very different style of Kickstarter from what people the Kickstarter crowd likes to see, but it is a great use of the platform.

Yeah. I can support all that. I'm actually ok with some gameplay changes when it is a novelty item related to the event to which the exclusive is tied and provides a bit of an in-joke "I was there" feeling to those that got it. That way it doesn't feel canon enough to make those who weren't there really want it and a still fulfills the goal of rewarding those who were there for the event 

That's an interesting idea. I could get behind that, certainly.

Surprisingly, while the comments show a lot of voices clamoring for additional map tiles and new environments, I am surprised that the topic of custom environments appears to be unstruck. The tiling system seems quite easy to be combined with home-made maps or even google-earth (have your next campain staged in Paris or even your own neighbourhood!).

Btw, I vote for a >G character as a kickstarter exclusive. Wouldn't need to be a balanced character in my point of view, as the pen is mightier than Absolution and as such would not require playtesting .

I think we have our next stretch goal!

I think I see where all the resistance to promo items is coming from. The assumption that they would be 1) better in some way than what is in the core game or 2) related to the card game rather than tactics. 

For me something like more art prints would make sense. It is unrelated to gameplay and would give a cool added bonus. Maybe a >G button or something like that.

Just my thoughts. 

Curious with the possibilities to make a custom environment tiles, here is a quick attempt featuring the Eiffel tower.

Paris-Eiffeltower_3.png466×504 372 KB

How about a World of Indines Map if Level 99 agree? Legacy is a promo card for Devastation, and it would have absolutely no story impact, just an extra map that people could have fights on (maybe a map that relates to the University so it promotes their upcoming release)

EDIT: Darned typos...

Aerial Photography maps are awesome, but generally expensive because you have to alter them quite a bit to make the elevation changes fit into hexes, or it ends up looking like you forced a hex grid onto something that doesn't fit.

There are several people who do it for the steampunk Zepellin game and Battletech, or at least did 2 years ago, I can't find their stuff now.

There are programs like Hexographer that let you make your own, but not with photos.

If the game gets big enough someone will jump on it and sell some cool maps like that on Ebay.

Love it.

I've already made a full set of Insula Primalis tiles and about half a set of Megalopolis tiles, back when all we got for playtesting were tiles with blocks of color on them.  I used basic Photoshopping skills, plus some 3D models from Google's Sketchup (the app that lets anyone make 3D models for their maps) and some Dundjinni top-down art assets for things like trees and cars.  It's not that hard, and I expect to see a whole raft of custom tiles from fans once the game comes out.

I use Inkscape rather than photoshop, as I find that it provides better quality, especially when varying the size of the map to fit it to the grid or aligning the height-indicators within the hexagons. When I have some time tomorrow, I'll draw up a base-file containing a few lines explaining how to use Inkscape to insert a map and fill in the dots…

This update is taking a while. Also this place is quiet. We need a divisive topic ASAP

"I demand compensation for my misunderstanding of updates and funding structure! I have no patience for delays like PAX East! All of the painted minitures should be free! Also, throw in some copies of Young Legacy until I am appeased..."

...You mean like that?

Platform Bot isn't in Tactics!!

I'm outraged!  I demand Platorm bot!!

Platform Bot is superior in all ways to Raptor Bot!

Down with dinosaurs, up with Platforms!!

Where is Cursed Acolyte? He needs to be in it ASAP! He also needs his own villain deck in Sentinels of the Multiverse! Lame!

No more like, “From the game play video Tachyon is too powerful. Nerf immediately or I take my pledge and use it to heat my fireplace”

If Ambuscade's miniature doesn't actually turn invisible when his cloaking shield goes up, I'm pulling my pledge.

I'm still waiting to find out if they're using standees or tokens for heroes/villains/minions etc in the final version of the game since I have no interest in miniatures... Is that divisive enough?

No because that’s a legitimate complaint

I demand that all the heroes and villains are in the base game! And there should only be five copies ever printed, three of which are for me, because I hate other people! The other two should be in badly misspelled Welsh semaphore! And I want my copies delivered to my house personally by Adam, Christopher and Paul wearing kilts and purple wigs and clogs, singing in four-part harmony despite their being only three of them! And they need to arrive on Thursday! With a giant pizza, which may not contain any ingredient that has more than six letters in its name!

If I don't get this, I'm totally pulling my $1 pledge. 

Silverleaf, we are not speaking anymore. You forbade pepperoni. We no longer can be friends

You're good with the kilts and wigs and semaphore though, right?

Tell me it's salami and we can be friends again. 

Cool! Which one of them throat sings?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1WZSiNceoE

(there are much better examples, but this one was silly.  Check out the movie "Ghengis Blues" for the real deal.)

So, no more stretch goals, all the add on pack unlocked? Pretty awesome! 

It appears that one of the Underbosses is the final character on the back of Rook City Wraith.

LAUGH. OUT. LOUD!

I'm mostly sad about this because I wanted to figure out how to make the Platform Bot mini hover in place above the board.

One of the underbosses seems to have a FILTER emblem on his suit.

And Citadel of the Sun as an environment?  Can.  Not.  Wait.

You would not believe the… discussion I had to win to get this to be the case, actually.

I'm backing for the 250 mark but if I want the add on I need to +100 to my 250 pledge to get it?

if you want painted minis in the addon, and you are having it shipped within the US, yes.

I had a lot of those moments catching up on this thread…

I'd say more of a concern than a complaint - I can't complain about something that hasn't happened (well, unless someone didn't buy an anniversary gift, that's probably fair game… )

The thing is, I have a friend in my (semi-)regular gaming circle who I think has backed everything. I'm so indifferent to figures, I've got some that are 26 years old and are completely untouched by paint…

Unfortunately, having 26 year old figures that are untouched by paint is not proof of indifference to the value of figures or painted figures. It's much more often proof of wanting to buy more figures than one has time to paint.

Can anyone help me out with figuring out this kickstarter and its pledge levels?  The colorful chart picture is helpful, but I feel like it is missing an option.  I'm looking to get the game with all promos, expansions, stretch goals, etc., but without any miniatures.  Is this possible?  It seems like the stretch goals add on more miniature characters, but there isn't a mention of tokens for these characters.  So if I were to get Heroic Combat then add the "Add-On" pack, I would have the base game with heros as tokens, then a few extras as miniatures?   Seems odd...

Also there isn't an option for "Super Heroic Combat" - so it seems if you choose to get no miniatures, you are choosing to not get the stretch goals as well?

If anyone could help, it would be much appreciated!

$50 pledge level gets you everything sans minis. Yes, Heroic Combat does include Uprising and everything that comes with it.

Add $20 on top for "just maps" of the addon pack (no need to pay an extra $20 for minis you dont want)

Boom. You're good to go.

That sounds terribly easy.  So two examples - in the $50 base game pledge level, there is no "six blade battalion miniatures," but there will be six tokens to represent these guys in the game?  And in that pledge level, Unity and her bots are included, just as tokens? (in Uprising?)

It doesn't seem that clear to me because the difference between heroic figures and super heroic is "PLUS all stretch goal characters…" whereas stretch goals aren't mentioned in the Heroic Combat level…?

Well, to be fair, its not supposed to be hard   But I understand where the confusion is coming from.

So two examples - in the $50 base game pledge level, there is no "six blade battalion miniatures," but there will be six tokens to represent these guys in the game?  And in that pledge level, Unity and her bots are included, just as tokens? (in Uprising?)It doesn't seem that clear to me because the difference between heroic figures and super heroic is "PLUS all stretch goal characters…" whereas stretch goals aren't mentioned in the Heroic Combat level…?

[/quote]

The Blade Battalion tokens are included in the Baron Blade Senario, which is part of the core set.

Unity and her bots are included in Uprising. Anyone who gets Uprising gets all of the Stretch Goal Characters. And jsut to be clear, Heroic Combat pledge level does include all of Uprising.

Heroic Figures level only gives minis for the characters found in the core game, and does not include minis from any characters in Uprising. Super Heroic Figures includes the minis from Uprising in addition to those of the core set.

Cool.  I think that decides how I'll be backing.  Thanks for you help dude!

No problem! Thats the way I am doing it as well. Everything under the Ra sun without minis. Glad I could help.

I'm a bit confused.

everything but the Minis = $70

Everything with Painted Minis = $350

That's a $280 difference between no minis at all, and all minis and they are painted.

The 3 packs of painted minis are going to be $89.95 each, or $269.85

Which means it would be $10.15 cheaper to buy the minis later, or at least before shipping.

I think this is because you actually get two sets of minis for some of the sets when you order them painted.

Correct. For $350 you get two copies of all minis except those in the add-on pack. For $320 you get just one painted copy of all the minis, although some of them are delayed.

Silverleaf, I can agree to call it Salami despite the difference between the two, and the rest is good too. My question is if you will accept tomato sauce or mozzarella cheese because both have more than 6 letters

Not when they're the only ones you own! Well, almost - my Bloodbowl (2nd edition and 3rd edition) ones were left unpainted too!

Hey mods, any chance we are getting an update today? I am mad for information and will derail this thread if desperate enough.

Update 19 is up. It’s about Blade, and also added a pledge calculator.

The blade story was interesting because it confirmed very little but provoked interesting possibilities and questions.

Also I love the way the updates have the feeling of each character’s flavor. Good job >G on that

I hope they're still planning on giving us that update on the 'poster maps'. I'm waiting to upgrade till I get more information on them.

Update 20 contains more information about Citizen Dawn and poster maps. Had a few bumps on the Kickstarter, so I think people are excited.

I'm quite excited for the Poster Maps.  My greatest wish is for them to be card playmat material people use for Magic/Netrunner (mousepad-like), since they would roll/unroll easily and feel very nice.  But at $9.95 per map at 24"X36" I highly doubt that's the case.  However, the same vinyl material they use for their SotM mat would be just fine (though I have trouble getting my Sentinels playmat to stay unrolled without weighing down the corners while we play)

But the idea that the maps have a set design means they can get really creative with balancing the arena, and I like that.  It also opens the doors for some interesting scenarios when you don't need to worry about the player customizing the layout.

From update #20: "Now that a new source of power has found its way to our world, the Citizens of the Sun are much more active than before."

Looking forward to seeing the speculation and eventual reveal of who or what gets turned into a power source...

YUP! Totally in the same boat. That was certainly a tantalizing piece of info

Thiago! Tumbleweed! Cosmonautilus! The Hippo!

Did I get most of the forum's pet theory bait?

Turns out all of the Citizens are just Guise.

Thow in CON and I think you have all your bases covered

Cosmonautilus comes to Earth, defeats all the heroes and armies and villains and everyone.

Only to be defeated by the one power Cosmonautilus could not predict or counter.

Thiago and his partner Tumbleweed, aided by the lingering spirit of the Hippo, who was saved from death by Unity who turned him into the most powerful of her Golems:  HippoBotamus Prime!

The new world forged in the aftermath would experience an event unparralleled in human history, when HippoBotamus Prime merged with the power of Cosmonautilus and brought about a cosmic event known as:

The Hippocalypse.

All the villains and Heroes would fight for ages to control this new source of power, until far in the future it would eventually cause the destruction of mankind, and the rise of all sorts of creatures.  Only Haka would survive the chaos, and used the Library to research what had actually happened.

After millenia alone with the books he discovered that the Cosmonautilus was in fact some creature known as Guise, and that all of the creatures outside the Library were also Guise, and that the books were Guise, and that Con was HippoGuise.

When he realized this he heard a rustling wind, and turning saw a young boy.

"We are Guise." it said.

"Thiago?" Haka replied.

"We are Guise." it said again, and then a strange wind blew through the Library, hot and dry.

"We are also Guise."  Haka heard whispered on the wind, and when he looked, he could see them.  They were coming, through time and space, from all corners of reality.

"Tumbleweed?"  Haka couldn't believe what his eyes told him.

"We are Guise. . ."

Beautiful.

So, will the poster maps be available for sale in game stores later?

That would depend on the store, I don't know how many stores are going to stock the periphery items, but it will be for sale through the >G website and probably other online stores.

Don't forget REVOCorp!

Guise is REVOcorp.

Is it too late to nominate phantaskippy for Bolster Allies?

You could nominate him for next year's awards.

What's interesting is revocorp is involved somehow, probably by gathering a fragment of this stuff, as shown in the KS picture with dawn and her goons.

This also probably has something to do with the Matriarch and the "great power" she first felt when she put on the mask. Probably pulled it here from where ever it was. Way to go Lillian, way to go

Wait, isn't everyone Mainstay? As I recall, Mainstay was everyone for a while...

The trick is that Mainstay was actually Guise all along.

He was, but then YOU went and spoiled all that with your 'plot' and your 'sensible' and your not letting everyone be Mainstay.

The Ultimate Christopher Move: Guise is never released and we are left in the dark forever--it was a trick all along.

I'm seeing this actually happen.

Wait a Minute, you mean Thiago grows up and becomes Guise who is Mainstay?

I think I am starting to see how this works.

Guise is actually the Sentinels of the Multiverse box.

It's all just Guises and Mainstays all the way down...

Update #21, translucent miniature for Visionary's decoy.... Will a future stretch-goal for the next core-set include translucent mini's for Citizens Truth and Dare, so that their energy-fields can be visualized as on the art? One can always dream :-)