Why don't we have a full card spoilers?

Refering to this discussion on BGG: (I'm cozmic0 btw)

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/15215921

So apparently (not sure myself) the devs of this game give us permission to upload the full game text and card images to any site somewhere, which is not that strange of an idea as a lot of cards game does provide this especially the like of TCG and LCG even some board game like Arkham Horror also has a wiki with full card spoilers. So why don't we have one for SotM? We already have a wiki that does an excellent job on capturing the game lore and card reference so why don't go the whole way and allow users to upload/input full card spoilers?

I think having access to spoilers everywhere will do help promoting the game and its expansion, and of course greatly help us for referencing certain cards quickly, heck it will help me go through long day of work too! Anyway, if the wiki allow I'm willing to help on inputting those game text to a spoiler.

How does it promote the game?

by showing the extent of the card mechanic and hero abilities. Much of SotM complexity lies on the card text itself which you have no way of knowing from just reading the widely available rulebook. People on the fence of getting the game will love the chance to take a peek at the cards and just by imagining how a particular hero works, setting up potential combo, and see how it fits together thematically can easily drive SotM to a purchase!

In fact personally I bought Arkham Horror and Warhammer Invasion LCG after spending major amount of time looking at their cards spoiler and imagining how cool they will be when played.

Obviously for existing fans, looking at spoilers of a new expansion will easily persuade them on purchasing the new set too… Magic has done that for years with great effect.

MTG is an order of magnitude (probably several) bigger than SotM. It has a fan base that far outstrips anything here.

Just because something can be done, does not mean something should be done.

ok then please tell me an argument why we shouldn't? So that players still buy an unknowingly bad expansion?? Personally I haven't had any regrets buying any of the sotm expansion.

I still believe that having a full spoilers somewhere is a great benefit to the fanbase and game health as a whole, please tell me why would it be bad for the community?

There is no such thing as "bad expansion" in SotM. There are text spoilers available.

Exactly! So we still don't have a reason against a central spoilers site… Btw where is that card spoiler available? Why can't we complete and centralise those spoilers to a single easily referenciable site?

The reason is simple

>G Is Three people trying to make a living and full card spoilers are far, far, FAR down on their priority list on 'ways for us to make money' compared to 'Release new product' and 'maintain current product' and 'playtest new product'

and no one else has gone about to host such a site because no one else so far has the time/energy/money/desire to do so.

Yeah, I think that's the answer - of the people who are passionate enough to do it, none of them are convinced it's a good idea or is worth the effort to do it.  At some point, someone who does have the inclination will do it and then we'll see if it was a good idea or not (personally, I think it'll be fine, and I do have a platform for hosting such a thing, but I don't care enough to put in the effort at the moment).

This isn't a full arguement against the idea, but it would have a different effect than MtG.  In Magic, when you see I see a card reveiled I start thinking "oh what an interesting card, how can I use that in my already existing decks, or with other cards that already exist that I am familiar with?"  With SotM you don't really play with the idea of how to incorrporate a new card into existing decks since it will only be in the new deck.

>G Is Three people trying to make a living and full card spoilers are far, far, FAR down on their priority list on 'ways for us to make money' compared to 'Release new product' and 'maintain current product' and 'playtest new product'

This exact, precise reason. :)

I don't see how it could hurt anything. If all the text and art were available and someone wanted to print their own copy, it would probably cost more than just buying a set. Someone could just print the text or maybe print on flimsy cardstock or paper, but I doubt there would be enough people interested in doing so to seriously affect how many copies of the game are sold.

How could it help? Easier reference for online discussion would be nice. Showing off the cards might help some people decide they're interested in the game or an expansion.

As others have said, though, the main issue is who's willing to put the time and effort into making an easily-used online database of cards. I suppose GtGs might decide they're willing to post the proof sheets  at some point, but that's not particularly easy to use for referencing individual cards.

I have been wanting to try to run a game of this for some friends on a different forum, but it ended up looking too tricky to do without a nice spoiler to show them all the cards easily if they play characters that need to search their deck or the like. Also just to have pretty posts to show them the gamestate.

Alas. 

I recommend Spiff's search sheets. Just assume I'm always doing that. 

The search sheets are great.. if I already have every different card in the deck in text form to reference against. 

But the search sheets DO have the card text. 

I'd support a text spoiler, but since I'm not going to bell the cat, I can't complain that there isn't one.

I don't think a full visual spoiler is a good idea.  It works for MtG, but MtG is a competitive collectible card game, and SotM isn't.

I must be looking in the wrong place because the pdf with the quick search lists I can find only has card text for errata'd cards. 

Spiff's deck search sheets.

So I was. Kudos Spiff.

I definitely think there's value to having a card database. The main use case for me would be when reading strategy guides or discussions and I'm less familiar with the decks. The card titles get tossed around without definitions and it can make it a lot harder to follow.

That said, I completely understand why it wouldn't be a priority for >G. Spiff, if you've got a platform and just need someone to transcribe the cards, I would definitely be willing to put in the work.

MtG works by persuading people to buy many cards they dont want in order to get one they do want. If you're following that model, you absolutely need to show off the cards in all their glory so that people know how they would fit in their deck(s) and thus know why they want them. 

Sentinels is not Magic. Decks are fixed, so individual cards are much less important than the overall way the whole deck works. 

I don't think my site is the best place for it.  Either the SotM wiki, or an actual searchable online database feels like a better way to go.

The thing is we already have an excellent Sentinels wiki which for some strange reasons disallow the posting of a card text spoiler.

Does anyone know who is the main moderator of that wiki? Perhaps if we can show him that it is ok to do so then we can make this a group effort for the completion of SotM database.

Fair enough. I'm willing to do the legwork, I'm just pretty useless beyond that, haha. Maybe I'll ask around a bit and see if I can come up with a good solution.

The main moderator of the wiki is on these here boards and has posted in this here thread.

The lynkfox has spoken

I am definately willing to put the effort in.  Actually sounds like something fun.  I almost (but not quite) have the time.

Hey there Mr. Lynkfox, could we please add a section for complete card spoilers in your awesome SotM wiki?

Nope. I know GtG has spoke that its okay and they dont mind, but I personally do not like the idea of giving print and play options.

Its not that a full spoiler is a bad idea, just that my personal tastes and opinions are against it in this case

however, Wikidot is a free Service. if you would like to make a sister wiki spoiler then by all means, go for it. ill even help you learb to code it.

also, memor options are rather low for wikidot. with what we do have already up there we are at about 1/5th of the memory allowed before money becomes involved. full spoilers would destroy that

The big difference between Sentinels and any CCG is that in a CCG you look at the card lists to see what cards work with your deck, and get ideas for your new decks.

If a Magic expansion was a box of decks that you did not customize they wouldn't post the cards, they'd post pictures of the deck's theme, and give a description, maybe a card or two to highlight the deck.

In SotM they post hero bios.  You get a feel for what the deck will be like, and it builds excitement to play the hero, or you say, "I don't think I'll like that hero, but this one over here sounds fun."

A complete card list helps a few situations:  

1.  Someone has a toddler named William, and that Toddler gets into their box and now Parse has 39 cards and they have no clue where that card went, or what card is even missing.

2.  Reference when talking about cards online and you decks are harder to access than an online list.

3.  When you think of something really cool you want to try with Hero A and Hero B and you can't remember the exact text of the cards and you are at work so you can't get out your cards, or even focus because it is driving you crazy.

It will not help promote the game.

It will not be a big part of getting new players into the game.

It will be convenient for current players, and those waiting for their game to get to them and are desperate for spoilers.

Just to offer personal anecdote, in the past I had purchased games after I obsessively looked at their card spoiler so to me it certainly play a big role on promoting the game to me. IMO Sentinels big points lie on the intricate card interactions and brand new players have no way of seeing that short of looking at the card text (or playing off someone's copy obviously). Yes you can read heroes fluff and get an idea of how they play, but without seeing the proper context of card interaction, new potential players will not have any idea on how it could play out.

Yes SotM is not a CCG, but even other LCG game which come with fixed deck have full spoilers somewhere and they greatly help on convincing existing players to buy a particular set, though admitedly they are also not hosted from the official site so probably the same situation as what we have now. 

I understand your stands Lynkfox and certainly respects your position. And I still would love to see it happen, so perhaps when the time allow I'll will try to see if I can get it going on wikispace or wikia (hated wikia excessive ad though), and I agree with the bandwidth limitation point so I also think it's best to start with just the text spoiler.

Edit: With the full image spoilers I don't even think print & play is a feasible idea, for one the low resolution will make it looks really ugly when printed, and when you add up the cost of printing full colour + the trouble off proper cutting, you are much better off buying the game. Even if you send it to a printer studio (eg. artscow) for printing, with that huge number of cards in the end it's still cheaper to just buy the game.

What about just a text listing on each hero's page?  No images of the cards, just the essential card text itself.  Perhaps like this:

Flak Cannon:  Deal one target 3 projectile damage.  Equipment, Limited.  [3 copies]

I can't imagine that the text would eat up the memory that much, especially in comparison to the images.  And, having just a text list would dissuade the 'print and play'-ers.

I know I would love a list form like that, because it's easier for me to see how different cards can interact and work together.  I'm a visual-linguistic learner, so that's my bag in general...

I would already erratu you by putting Power: without that the card could not be complete

text doesnt take up any space at all comparatively. its just at this point in time I dont see the need, nor do I agree with the idea of full box spoilers for this game.

(note i do think a card or two spoiled from /upcoming/ sets would be awesome but thats certainly.not a possibility from fans/players atm)

im not against it, just dont think the wiki needs it. The wiki was more designed for lore purposes, to find all those clues and all those stories we stumble upon. to put even just txt spoilers up there would be a lot of information I dont believe is relevant.

again, however. Im not against the idea in anyway. its not a bad idea and >G has said they are aoK with it. Im just a fudgley ol fudgey about it

That is a very fine moral line you're drawing.  (I say this in exactly the tone of voice that I might observe, say, a certain cloud to be peculiarly-shaped.)

also, memor options are rather low for wikidot. with what we do have already up there we are at about 1/5th of the memory allowed before money becomes involved. full spoilers would destroy that

This, of course, on the other hand, is a much more straighforward justification for refusal, to which there can be no real argument.

So...

There seem to be, what, six or seven people strongly in favor of this happening?

We've established that Greater Than Games don't object.  If someone made a wiki, and those 6-7 people each put up one full deck (that couldn't take more than half an hour) every other day, then in just a few months, this would exist.  Keeping up with new expansions would then prove trivial.

Why debate when you can create?

Yep.  Just need to find out who "someone" is.

I'd be more than game to contribute.  However, I think that something like GoogleDrive might be easier to navigate than a wiki.  An Excel-type document with a deck on each tab would be pretty easy to set up.

I did some Sporcle quizzes a while back (like, maybe a year or so ago) about different decks, which included the card text for whichever deck the quiz was about. I didn't get round to doing everything though, plus more expansions have come out since then as well.

Didn't Greater Than Games get a bit bent out of shape from some of the unreleased stuff found at The Gathering of Heroes that was put on the wiki?  I don't think posting a list of cards up is an essential need for Sentinels, but I'm definitely not against it.  I'm just trying to fully grasp what the negatives of this are.

People may print-and-play the game and have one free copy, sure.  It's unlikely someone would do that if they had any intention of buying the game proper.  It doesn't save money, look better, or store better if printed on card stock or sleeved with proxy cards.  But what happens if someone else plays this print and play game and wants a copy?  Will they print it all out themselves?  Possibly.  But they might also just buy the game.  As far as I'm concerned it is at least somewhat likely that money will be gained from releasing that spoiler.

I've just noticed that Greater Than Games has said nothing against a full card spoiler, but has expressed some limitations on what exactly they want released to the public as spoilers for future sets.  End of the day?  The wiki is your baby and you can do what you please with it.  It has already been an excellent resource, and a lack of a spoiler list won't diminish it in any way.  Though your preference is not necessarily opposite of Greater Than Games, it does seem to have some noteworthy differences.

[quote=Reckless]Didn't Greater Than Games get a bit bent out of shape from some of the unreleased stuff found at The Gathering of Heroes that was put on the wiki?[/quote]

Pretty sure it was because it was using someone else's IP though

That's fair.  Regardless, I've seen posts from users discussing taking pictures, video, or transcripts of unreleased cards Christopher has shown off at conventions that have resulted in him giving them a stern look or requesting to keep the information private.  I haven't ever seen Greater Than Games get bent out of shape for someone openly discussing the released cards and their text online.

The reasoning (as i get it) was actually because its not been finalized. He left it as a teaser for those of us who came, but didnt want it out there in full yet. So he asked me to take it down. No worries, because thats fine with me. 

As I mentioned before if someone want to print their own copy, the low res image will look really bad and the end cost will be more expensive than if they just buy the game. This is not CCG where the price of a card is crazier than the cardboard it printed on, or even like Munchkin where they overcharge like crazy. SotM price relative to the number of cards is already pretty low so much that printing your own card is just not economic (the only exception is perhaps for the environment mini expansion)

The reason I prefer wiki over Google Docs format is that each card entry has to be easily found and refered as a link to make reference easier. I think it sucks if you want to show someone what a card does and that person have to open a document and look for it for themselves.

Also, I'm still intending to start it, and I'll see how I can get it going....

The only stuff I don't want shared (in photographs, at least) is not-yet-released stuff. Already existing stuff is another matter entirely.

And I'd hope that I don't come across as "bent out of shape" about it. *grin* I seem nice!

I like how you went with 'seem' instead of 'am'.

[grinning intensifies]

[/quote]

Such nice!

Lost Doge

-Such Trubble

-So Scare

-Wow

-Plz Call 969-DOGE

MUCH REWARD

(stupid link - why not working? - much annoy.)

I had a Twitter exchange this morning with someone who is blind and is planning to make a braille version out of their copy of the game. Pertinent point from the exchange below: "It would be easier if I had the card lists with all the texts"

(Loravara) Considering buying Sentinels of the Multiverse. I know I'll need to Braille the cards. Is it a good game? Think it's playable in Braille?

(arenson9) @Loravara I love Sentinels, but every card has instructions, so you will be reading and rereading constantly.

(Loravara) @arenson9 I bought the base Sentinels game from Amazon last night. Not all the Braille will fit on the cards, I'm certain.

(Loravara) @arenson9 What I'll do is put an identifying number on the card, and maybe a few important values.

(Loravara) @arenson9 Then I'll write the full card description in my PDA and tie it to the card number I assigned. Did similar with MTG, Dominion, etc.

(arenson9) @Loravara Interesting. I'd be interested to learn how it works out.

(Loravara) @arenson9 Me, too. It would be easier if I had the card lists with all the texts. Copying verbatim takes time.

Ok, I'm definitely off the fence now.  I think it would be awesome if Loravara (and anyone else who has a similar vision-impaired situation) had access to card lists.

I will start writing up base SotM characters' decks tomorrow in a GoogleDrive spreadsheet.  

Once I get started, I'll share the link here so others can contribute.

Okay, I agree. For accessibility purposes I'm all for this, and will totally help out with the spreadsheet. 

Here's a start, I believe it is the original edition though

https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/sentinels-multiverse-spoilers

EDIT: Checked, it is. But that's all of the cards from from the set.

would the card amounts for Tachyon be the same as the enhanced edition?

My toddler got into my game and now Tachyon has a 35 card deck.  I can't find any clue as to the location of the missing ones.

Deck sizes didn't change. Some art was changed as sets advanced. Wording was changed in some places.

I finished updating the base set heroes today and finished inputting the Rook City heroes as well.

I should be able to finish off the heroes this week, then start on the Villains/Environment shortly thereafter.

jffdougan has proffered the data for the Vengeance set and the fan-made Cauldron set, so that'll help get things done quickly!

O yea be careful with the wording the from the first printing of the base set, not just wording change but some card functionality are also changed like Wraith's stun bolt nerfed from reducing 2 damage to 1, and Wraith's base power changed from preventing to reducing.

There was only 1 card count change from Original to Enhanced, Absolute Zero swapped 3 Coolant Blasts and 2 Frost Bound Drains for 2 Coolant Blasts and 3 Frost Bound Drains.

PW, if you share the link I am off work this week and would be more than willing to take a few decks

I'm actually almost done with the Heroes--I only have Unity and The Scholar left, and I need to go through and make sure that the spreadsheets provided by JFFDougan line up with mine.  I'll get that done either tonight or early tomorrow, and will post the link as soon as it's done.

I'm going to start on the Environments next and save Villains for last.

As soon as I post the link, if you'd like to start on the Villains in that format, that'd be great!

I'm happy to start on the villains - I'll update this thread each time I am working a set, starting with the Core

Actually, hold off for a tick.  JFFDougan's spreadsheet was much more comprehensive (and more well done) than mine, so I asked his permission to open it up for others to view/use.  

If he gives the say-so, I'll open up the link which has everything already put in!

So...

With this development thats enough to reverse my stance on spoilers on the wiki.

My daughter is blind in her right eye, and while she isn't old enough to need or understand braille yet, it may (or may not, I dont know) become a thing to learn. I can't be against handicapped accessability.

When you guys are done let me know and Ill set up a special place on the wiki for em.

Wait, you have a daughter who is blind in her right eye?

Does she have purple hair?

And shoot lots of guns?

That's why we need the list, to remedy the situation.

Not yet…

Guys, I think we figured out who Citizen Dusk is

i am waiting till she is strong enough to learn to shoot… xD

Okay, gang!  With permission of its original creators--Brian Mola and our own Jffdougan--here's the database.

I really cannot thank them enough for this.  My own efforts seemed profoundly feeble by comparison and I only personally contributed the flavor text for the Vengeance heroes.  Their hard work is surely appreciated!

Sentinels of the Multiverse--Full Card Breakdown

Wow.  This is amazing.

Minor typos:  The environment deck breakdown doesn't have the deck names pinned like the other pages do, and the final column is labeled "Villians" rather than "Environments"

So wonderful, folks. I've sent the link to @Loravara via Twitter, who, btw, is interested in getting online and joining the forum, but has run into some difficulty with the captcha. I'm working on that.

and ...

wiki'd

on the Fan-Created page.

Awesome, awesome, and awesome. 

The vengeance hero decks are not in yet,as far as I could tell. I would start adding them but I don't have it

I can do it it but it appears to be write-protected

They're in the copy I e-mailed to PW. He might not have added them to the GDoc (maybe) because they needed the flavor text added in.

The Vengeance decks were in the one I uploaded, because I added in the flavor text..  I'll double-check those tomorrow and get back to you.

Can some version of this be stickied, perhaps? This very useful thread fell to the second page just now.

Maybe it should just be linked from this welcome to newcomers thread: https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/new-to-the-sentinels-forum-look-here-faq-2894

So why have you not edited the first post in that thread Mr Moderator?

(Seriously, this is the fourth or fifth time I've had to come searching for this thread, it's such a pain to be out and about and suddenly need to look up a card without access to my bookmarks)

It is alo on the wiki. Just go to Fan Created.

its linked there now ;) (in the new to the forums thread)

Magic, thanks for linking the link Lynkfox.

On the off chance that this was a serious question, my guess is that the reason I didn't add this link to the newcomers thread when I wrote the above is that I was either unsure of whether or not it should be linked or I was under the impression that the newcomers thread was community-owned in such a way that it would be more appropriate for the community to come to a consensus about what should be there than for a Moderator to take unilateral action.

I give complete permission. (hah) for mods to add anything they think is a good fit for that thread. More information the better! Might even change the title to welcome to the >G forum!

Last night I noticed that the spoiler list is not up to date!

The (minor) changes made to Rook City and Infernal Relics are not in there, how can we help to add them in?

Anyone know who I should talk to about fixing errors in the full card breakdown? Planar Banishment is listed as Planar Punishment.

Jffdougan. Send him a PM.

PM received. Ironically, the person who uploaded the GDoc forgot to give me editing permission. (Hint, hint.)

I can fix it on my master Excel sheet, but....

Fixed!

Anything else to add while I'm at it, aside from the fact that I'll put in dummy spots for the known upcoming Heroes/Villains/Environments?

https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/rook-city-reprint-errata-4765

I think I have all the Rook City errata in. The thread you linked doesn't have a list for the Infernal Relics errata that I saw, if any exist.

You do now!  Good work!

I'm not sure there was any for Infernal Relics.

Is there any way we can help aside from typing out cards in the future and then PMing it to you?

I need to fish Brian Mola's email address back out and give him editing access to the GDoc.

In the immediate term, the decks with yellow first columns have not been proofread by anybody. A second pass would be useful for any assorted other typos that have been missed or other issues. Beyond that, identifying the fonts used for any heroes not labeled would be good.

When Wrath starts arriving, it's going to be a matter of just plain typing them. My original is in Excel; a cloned GDoc would give people a place to work, too. If you go the latter route, sharing it with me would make splicing it into the master sheet more straightforward. My email address is my username here at comcast dot net.