Thought on Vengeful Five (and The Sentinels)

Granted I've only played Vengeance once, but I love the villain synergy of the V5. Sure, there's more things to think about, but if each player's running a villain it isn't that much work and becomes even less as they get incapped. The lack of variety in the V5 only applies in 5 hero games - there are five different 4 hero combinations and I think six 3 hero combinations. 

Also I'm pretty sure that everything's already mapped out in terms of what's coming up in the remaining expansions. Whatever's going to happen - heroes, villains, mechanics, whatever, will happen. None of that's likely to change, so if there's another V5 style villain set in the future I advise you just don't buy it. There's plenty of other villains to fight anyway...

I agree with the OP. I too like the v5, and would like to see some expansion on the concept of a team of villains. I also hope it isnt the only format going forward. The biggest problem I have with fighting the V5 is time. The game takes twice as long since each player basically takes two turns. And sometimes one of the members of the group is new, or cant really multitask so having them try to handle a villain and their own hero bogs them down and makes it not fun for them. Granted those arent situations where I would choose the V5, but if more and more are released only like that then it could cut out some options in the future. 

TL:DR: Im greedy and want both kinds of villains for future releases! 

We might expansions with a combination of stand alone villains like we're used to, and team villains that could be slotted into the vengeful five.  The main problem with that is that the team villains would require Vengeance in order to be playable.

OTOH, if there's another expansion with the five mini-villain scheme, I hope it's designed so that those villain decks are combinable with the five from Vengeance. 

[quote="Silverleaf"]

 The lack of variety in the V5 only applies in 5 hero games - there are five different 4 hero combinations and I think six 3 hero combinations. Also I'm pretty sure that everything's already mapped out in terms of what's coming up in the remaining expansions. Whatever's going to happen - heroes, villains, mechanics, whatever, will happen. None of that's likely to change, so if there's another V5 style villain set in the future I advise you just don't buy it. There's plenty of other villains to fight anyway...

[/quote]

Yes there are 5 different combination on 4v4 and 6 combination on a 3v3. But how much variety is that compared to all-different 4 solo villain for each game? One 4-player game with Proletariat and the other game with Ermine while the other 3 villains remain the same doesn't hold a candle to the variety of completely different solo villain. I sure know which I prefered.

Also I realized that >G had mapped out the team roster and what's coming in the future, but that's the thing it's mapped out not set-in-stone gameplay mechanic. There's still time to change from villain group ala V5 to ala The Sentinels, or even better flesh them up further so they can be tuned up to be a solo villain. As far as I know playtesting for WotC hasn't even started yet so there's still plenty of time to nail down those design elements.

Nine, actually, unless you mandate the inclusion of Baron Blade (in which case there would be only four 4-villain combinations).

Don't worry. I asked Adam at the Gathering of Heroes if there would be more Vengeance Style Villains and he said these were the only ones. That's not saying things may not change (id expect if anything it be exchangable mini expansion decks) but at the moment, doesn't seem like there are plans for it.

I would also say, if you want less randomness on the Ennead, play them on advanced ;)

That certainly removes randomness, like winning and not horribly dying.  Everything normalizes into a countdown to Armageddon.

The last game I played against the Enead would've turned out the same on advanced. We were a team of five and all nine actually came out without having to be on advanced. That was a brutal game.

Baron Blade is NOT required in the game.  Under Game Setup: "If Baron Blade is present in the game, he should go first, ..."

Thus one 5P setup, five 4P setups, and ten 3P setups:

5P: Baron Blade - Fright Train - Proletariat - Ermine - Friction

4P: BB - FT - Pro - Erm
     BB - FT - Pro - Fric
     BB - FT - Erm - Fric
     BB - Pro - Erm - Fric
     FT - Pro - Erm - Fric

3P: BB - FT - Pro
     BB - FT - Erm
     BB - FT - Fric
     BB - Pro - Erm
     BB - Pro - Fric
     BB - Erm - Fric
     FT - Pro - Erm
     FT - Pro - Fric
     FT - Erm - Fric
     Pro - Erm - Fric

Still, I agree that one game of Vengeance doesn't seem like it would be that different from another, at least when compared to the differences in playing against the different solo Villains.

You really should play them a few times before forming such an opinion. The reality is this is very far from the case. A few games could have told you that.

You're probably right, but we got destroyed so badly in the first game (F5 vs V5 in Freedom Tower) that I have yet to convince anyone to try again. And solo Vengeance is a logistical nightmare even with a double set of counters.

 I asked Adam at the Gathering of Heroes if there would be more Vengeance Style Villains and he said these were the only ones.

Wait, really? He said that?

I agree with this.  I like having the option for something different, the same way the Ennead are something different, but I don't want all villains to be like the V5 going forward.  Luckily, that doesn't look like it'll be the case.

Having said that, I still wouldn't mind promo decks being made available for V5-style villains to add into the mix when choosing a V5 match-up, as long as getting those didn't mean I was giving up something else.

I don't want only Vengeance style villains, but I'd love more of them.

I agree with Foote, the game even changes a lot by what heroes are in the game, suddenly that nemesis goes from least important target to "Oh Crap, Knyfe is in the game, we need to kill that thing."

My group did a five player game, the five new heroes vs. the V5.  We managed to take down a few of them, but it was pretty rough.  The game was long, and the heros got beaten to a paste.

I tried a solitair game later, using Legacy, Visionary, Tempest, KNYFE, and Omnitron-X.  I won, but it was close; Tempest and Omnitron-X were incapicitated by the end (and a good thing - incap Tempest saved the team from nuking itself with toxic damage once Baron Blade and Fright Train dropped).

Solitair games vs the V5 is rough, even for me!

Yeah I did a full 5vV5 solo, that didn't go well, for the heroes, my brain, rules accuracy or time spent.  Bad idea.

I'm aware that by swapping different villain in V5 we can get a lot pf permutation and perhaps more variance than I thought too... But really comparing that to the diversity of traditional single villains? No way for that level of variance to even be close.

The biggest detractor for me is the development oppurtunity cost, considering that each V5 has a 20-card deck, it's close to the effort of developing a traditional 25-card single villain deck. And now instead of developing 4 diverse villains, the oppurtunity slot is taken by the V5 group. Again I'm happy that >G has done it this one time and it does feel fresh and different. I just hope that there aren't anymore similar thing in the future.

Btw, on the thinking for something different and with less development cost, perhaps they can introduce a 'duo' villain? Two villains on the board with their own 20-card deck and taking 2 villains turn back-to-back. Sounds like a blast to me :D

If you think their permutations of order are the only thing that gives them variance, then it is obvious you have not played more than 1 game against them either.

Informed opinions people. They are not to be feared. The lack of them in this thread is troubling.

Edit: Feeling nice, so I'll give provide you with an example, free of the hassel of playing them for yourself. In a standard Villain with a standard deck, how much of that deck would you say you go through during the average game? Just from my own experiences and knowledge of the mechanics, you are most likely going to go through most of the villain deck on average, maybe around 75% (obviously some villains you will go through the deck multiple times like Akash or Matriarch or Chairman). You see them play most of the same cards every game, with some of the rarer ones making less frequent appearences (like Voss's starships). 

What percent of each V5 deck do you think you blow through during the average game? Hint: Its much lower due to the nature of the turn order and damage output. For each game, each V5 deck will have more variance because you see far less of their deck per game. This combined with their different permutations of order, and you get magnitudes more varience per game than with a traditional solo villain. But if you played a few games with them, you would have figured out all of this yourself

Wow, I do not understand why people seem to get blown up so badly by the V5.

They're a lot like a team of heroes in scope, but with lower average HP, lower average damage, limited ability to focus fire, and no ability to make plans.  Barring really bad luck, why do people have such trouble cleaning their clocks on non-Advanced?

(For anyone who wants to know, I have played two five-Hero games against the V5*, two four-Hero games, one three-Hero game, and two two-Hero games.  I am also basing my opinions on the two five-Hero games against them on the BGG forums.)

As for the original topic, I really like the V5's playstyle, and would very much like to see some V5-compatible promo decks.  That said, I neither expect nor particularly want it to become the new default mode.  Variety is good!

And it is in the name of variety that I am working on a few variant rules to help people out if they want some new faces to switch up their V5 games a little more...

* I will allow that one of my five-hero games didn't tell me much, since it contained a Legacy who drew The Next Evolution, followed by all three copies of Heroic Interception back-to-back.  While the first made me wonder why a team which can expect to often face Legacy is so cripplingly dependant on Melee damage, all the HIs will make a joke of essentially any villain, so the V5 get a pass there.

??? Look it doesn't matter how low is their percentage on how much of their deck you got to see. Even if you only go through 20% of each decks in a single game, you are still bound to see the same card on the next game (not to mention same core mechanic). No way tou can compare 20% seen with 0% of a completely new villains. No matter how you want to slice it a fresh villain will always be more diverse than facing an already seen villain from the last game.

Why don't you try playing a 4-player V5 game four times in a row using any permutation you want, then next session play another 4 game this time facing Shattered villains sequentially. I'm sure we can agree which one provides a more diverse experience.

For me the V5 is all about a good start.  As soon as you kill the first one, the game gets easier.  Kill the second and it gets easier again.  The main thing is to decide as a group who to target and focus fire the crap out of that villain. 

My group normally likes to play the long game with a lot of control and keeping the board empty but we found that wasn't effective in V5.  Instead we had to completely change our normal play style and focus all of our efforts on the villain card and just ignore any card that comes out of their deck.

When my team has a slow start its brutal, when we can kill one of them early its no problem.

I've also found the game is much easier the more heroes you have.  After all you have one more person focusing on killing that first, most important target.

Are you talking about a brand new, never before seen or played Villains being more diverse than playing a Villain you have had for a while? If so, so what? Is that really what we are talking about here?

If we are talking about multiple games vs the V5 vs multiple games vs a single villain and talking about which villain will provide more diverse game experiences over the span of those games (which is what it sounded like you were saying), then we are not going to agree at all. And honestly man, I'v got way more than enough of those games under my belt already to form my opinion, and frankly by the sounds of it, I'm not the one who needs them.

Your basic math is off. If you went through 20% of a 20 card deck, you go through 4 cards. There are way more than 4 unique cards per V5 deck, so there is a pretty great chance you will not run into the same 4 cards. Now, we both know the %'s here are totally pulled from thin air, and your argument doesn't even work when you use your own numbers. 

Oh, one other thing I am curious about:

How would you design a villain deck more similar to The Sentinels than The Ennead?

This is an honest question!  As someone who really enjoys tinkering around with SotM mechanics, I am not sure how it could be done, and would appreciate insight.

It could be done by having all of the villains out at the beginning of the game along with there being fewer of them (potentially making each one a bit stronger by itself).

Neither, its not about new vs "had for a while" he is talking about what if this expansion had 4 new villains instead of the V5.  Playing the V5 4 times vs playing 4 new villains once each.

Alternately after you have had the V5 for a while and played them several times, playing V5 4 times in a row vs playing any other 4 villains (that you have had for a while) once each.

Also cards from the deck could reference members by name like

"The villain with the highest Hp deals the hero with the highest Hp 2 damage.  If Seargent Smackdown is in play he deals that same hero 3 damage."

Another idea would be to base things on the number of active members similar to that Sentinels card that does X damage where X in the number of active Sentinels +1.

Are you even allowed to mention WotC here?  I mean, you didn't even put the 'TM' next to their name and they can get really cranky about that…

So to sum up:

1.  Vengeance is really cool.

2.  The other villains are also really cool.

3.  More Vengeance Villains would be cool.

4.  More Non-Vengeance Villains would be really cool.

5.  We all like cool stuff, and new stuff, esp. when it is cool.

Yes, 4 normal Villains offers a more diverse feel than the V5.  That's why we got 5 Heroes in this one.  It's a big deal, and it opens up a brand new way to be awesome.

The V5 are cool, and as a villain experience will get more use than the normal Villains I already have, but not a huge amount more.

Baron Blade is a Jerk.

Yeah I hope we get some V5 style Villains, when the designers are like "This group should totally work that way," and more Regular Villains when that villain works best that way.  I even like the current attempts on BGG to make old Villains V5 style and the V5 work individually.

If they come out with another brand new way to play the game, I bet you I'll like that as well.

And I love the new Tactics game.  

You mean  Will of the Cosmonaulitus?  It is going to be awesome.  I hear Spielberg wants the movie rights already.

This makes me excited, if it means we may get more villain teams, I’d love a vengeful five equivalent for the prime wardens, it would be cool if each hero got a nemesis deck like this.

I thought he did.

To be fair i wasn;t really paying attention and slightly sick, among other things going on. It is entirely possible i remember wrong. In fact its probably likely.

I'd like to see another V5-esque team, and a mini-expansion set of villains that could fit into teams to add even more variety would be awesome. Of course I want regular villains too, and any other villain types that >G see fit to grace us with. Everything's been good so far so I trust them to give us more good stuff.

Can Vengeance get to me faster please? I've been a good girl. 

I feel terribly for you right now.  Be strong.

I feel the best approach would probably be a middle ground approach.  Maybe something along the lines of an expansion that allows you to adjust any villain deck to be either solo or team play...

Thank you. It's preordered, and they'll email when they get it. I don't think it's making things any easier knowing I have a copy on its way though, weirdly.

If only I could have justified $40 for shipping to get it earlier, but my RPG club who are paying for the game would probably beat me to death. And then I wouldn't get to play Vengeance at all! Stupid club doesn't understand the significance of Vengeance, obviously. 

Sure sounds like they know exactly how important it can be!

Yeah, I was kind of wiped by the end.  It helped that I have a 6' long bar that I could devote to it, and just go down the line, but it still took a while.  I don't think I'll do it again.

How about a standard sized expansion with:
        2 Heroes
        2 regular Villains
        the same 2 Villains in Vengenace style
        2 Environments

I think any additional villain decks that can be added to the V5 (and I really hope they make more) should be done as mini expansions. That way it doesn't render an expansion, or even a part of one, useless to players who don't have Vengeance. 

Yeah, this really seems like the best approach.

Agreed, and I hope it shall come to pass.

So I've been looking for a place to discuss the Vengeful Five game play with folks who aren't "What's wrong with you? Why can't you see this is awesome and easy?"

Anyone know where that conversation is?

We've played a few times. It's been a brutal beat-down every single time. I've got folks who simply will not play it again.

What I am looking for is advice, possibly modifications, for playing out a version that isn't just Hate Times Ten.

Thanks!

~SPF

What seem to be the specific issues leading to the beat down?  I dont know that I would call the V5 easy, but I have certainly found them beatable.  What teams have you been playing, how many players etc?  Also, as a general strategy rule I would recommend prioritzing targets and focusing fire (especially because all of their cards, including the nemeses, go away when one of the V5 is incapped).  

Welcome, Sean. Are you still writing these days?

I have no strong advice. But I will say that my group hasn't lost a V5 game yet. The common thread through all of our games is focusing on one villain at a time (usually leaving Ermine until last, if she's out). Other than that, I haven't thought about it in detail yet.

If you're game for trying modifications, why not take a shot playing against The Vengeful H-1?

The Vengeful Five's real advantages are (1) the fact that it's a different playstyle, and people have trouble adjusting, and (2) the fact that at the start of the game, the V5 are 2-3 turns ahead in terms of card play, so (as with so many villains) you're scrambling to catch up from the word go.  So if you have one fewer of them than of you, you should have the extra resources to close that gap, and so have a better chance to get used to the different target priorities of fighting the V5 before you take on the full set.

If you have less than 5 players leave out the Baron.

That really helps.

They are really tough, You have to manage the clones or they will kill you, you have to keep Blade from getting too built up, you want to get rid of Frictions devices, and you are getting pounded by Fright Train.

Oh and Ermine would love for you to ignore her.

Bring lots of toughness and damage.

Tempest is great against them, all target damage is good, and we got to a point where we got to use shackles on 4 of them in one attack.

Legacy is big, he can eliminate the Melee damage if you get the right cards, otherwise his damage boosting makes the all target damage really good.

Fanatic is amazing, End of Days is a Godsend when they are flooding the field with cards, first turn EoD is incredible.

Chrono Ranger's bounties are also awesome.

Haka and Rampage, Bunker and External, any all target damage is great.  Also since non-advanced they have almost no armor Hypersonic is awesome.  Ground Pound and Grease Gun are also sick, and Salvage Yard is an awesome combo with Ermine, she feeds your trash, you recover.

the big threat is the damage they put out and the total amount of health they make you burn through to win.  Boosting and reducing are big, but since it is so many targets stun bolts and that ilk aren't as good (and better used against all target damage threats than Fright Train)

Bring your A-team, because you will need it.  Don't bring heroes that need lots of cards in play to work, but Bunker and Ammo Drop is incredible, so many villain cards to destroy.

I like Legacy, Tempest, Bunker, Fanatic, Ranger, Haka, Fixer.  They all do well vs. the V5.  If you take at least three of them you should have an easier time.

Don't do Atlantis.  Just don't.

Legacy and Tempest are good tech against The Vengeful Five, much as they are against everything else, yeah.

More generally, the V5 win by drowning you in damage before you're set up, like Iron Legacy.  Unlike IL, their damage can be reduced, so a good tank, or someone who can speed setup (hello, Omnitron-X) are strong counters.

Remember to make use of their weaknesses. Take out Shock Dampners first, but then you can almost (almost) ignore Friction. She'll kill herself. Anytime you have multi target attacks, throw one at Fright Train to get  the extra bonus damage. Blade can certainly wait till last, but that impulsion beam has to go.  Proletariat can certainly become an issue, but if you keep a handle on the clones (Tacyone Hypersonic Assult is great, but removes their drawback, other methods to neuter them are good) you can manage.

Its a much trickier game - its much much more about management - its Ennead on Advanced with everyone having a trigger another card play (in effect) or Citizen Dawn on crack. Its possible... just more threat managment than usual.

Prioritize, but don't be afraid to adjust priority as the game board changes.

No, it doesn't.  Proletariat deals himself that damage, so turning off damage from the Clones doesn't keep him from dying.  The same goes for Stun Bolts, Zealous Offensive, and so forth.

0 Clones + Everymans Strength = Kill Proletariat first. Thats the only thing I know.

Yeah, the last hero's job can be to run the Environment.

Unless Proletariat has armor, HSA will hit him too, so he won't be able to deal damage.  (I say this not having seen the V5, maybe I'm speaking stupidness.)

If there are ever zero clones, kill Proletariat before he inevitably manages to draw Everyman's Strength the next turn.

He's the weakest of the Five without it, but that card makes him a nightmare.  And he always gets it one turn after absorbing all his buddies.  I suspect witchcraft.

Played them a couple of weeks ago and had a first round End of Days, followed by By Any Means played on Friction so she kept nuking herself for Even More Damage. That helped. The other two were Proletariat (who kept nuking his own clones and thus wasn't too much of a threat) and Ermine (whom we prioritised due to all her stuff-destruction). Can't remember which environment we used but we did win that one. We have lost against them too, though (not those same three as we randomise). I would agree that focusing fire on one specific villain is a good idea, as is taking out their starting gear - the Shock Dampeners are very good to get rid of, for example, as is that mutagen stuff that Blade starts with. If Ermine puts out that redirection ongoing then that's a priority target too. I expect that some of the nemesis minion guys may become priority targets in certain games if their nemesis is around as well.

If I can ever convince my group to try Vengeance again (or if I'm crazy enough to try a solo V5) this advice should prove helpful.

But, seriously, this is the most useful thread on Vengeance I've seen so far.

This.

Unless the 'DR equal to number of proletariets in play on the lowest proletariet" is out, he probably will take the hypersonic assault

Won't he redirect the Hypersonic Assault hit to his clones, thus one of his clones will double not be able to deal damage instead of him?

yes, if a clone is out Proletariat will redirect instead.

Ding ding ding.

Honestly, I more often find myself worrying about how to keep clones alive than how to kill them, given Proletariat's garbage HP and thier moderate damage.  The lowest HP one taking double damage from area effects is harsh!

There have been two PBF games against the V5 over at BGG. Both were victories, if you want to read through them to see how they were handled. (One game was against the new heroes from Vengeance, one was against the F5).

oh yeah/

Sheepish

Having a super tank (Scholar with Flesh to Iron or the Naturalist in Rhino form) really helps as they mostly hit the highest and mostly for 2 damage (Fright Train or a sureged up Friction notwithstanding). But global damage and a very good tank work wonders. Naturalist is probably best, especially going after Ermine as he can get his trashed cards back so easily.

I'm guessing that the Sentinels really suffer against the V5 then?

Not like you'd think.

The V5 have relatively little damage to the lowest (and garbage for global damage effects), and outside of Fright Train, mostly only hit for 1-2 damage a pop.  And you beat them by winning the damage race.

As such, a Hero who brings 52 HP, can mitigate damage, and can deal large amounts without setup is a godsend against them.

There is some risk of Blade just beating The Idealist to death, but at 2 HP per turn, it's nothing Medico can't handle.

Until Revenant comes out from Friction's deck when you're also play Setback (happened to us last night).  Then BB has +2 damage and Idealist died fast

No, the Sentinels are strong against the V5, because they do a lot of area damage. Personally, my impression is that they're easier with more Heroes, because it's easier to focus fire on them. I had a 3 player game against Baron Blade, Ermine and Proletariat in the Ruins of Atlantis yesterday, and keeping anything in play or in hand was a massive struggle. In a 4 player game, we'd have been more resistant to bad draws, and we could have taken out Ermine a lot earlier.

Also, I think if you spend more than 2 discretionary damage killing the Shock Dampeners, you're making a mistake. You should hit Friction with that damage instead. You don't want to leave her around so that she can blow up all your Ongoings or hit someone for 10.

Removing the Shock Dampeners is good. Pretty much everything Friction does hurts herself then.

It's good if you don't put any effort into it and let it happen all by itself. But spending actual single target damage on it is a waste of time. Instead of killing the Shock Dampeners, kill Friction.

Unless you can do it in one turn, removing the SD accelerates her passing. The V5 is a very target rich environment and depending on the game state, priorities can and will fluctuate from turn to turn.

On Advanced Erimine is a high priority target because until she goes away its hard to build up an offense.  Have lots of ways to lockout damage (Tachyon, Legacy are big winners here) or lots of ways to deal crazy damage fast so you can either neuter Fright Train or just put him in a body bag.

Blade usually gets left for the end for us, his DR 2 devices and healing make him too tough a nut to crack until the end (and is also almost more fatal after being killed if Legacy is in play)

There are a number of ways to take on the V5 successfully, whether they are a full team or not.

1. Heroes with deck manipulation can be useful, but tend to be far less powerful than normal.  This is because they can only look at one villain deck at a time, so where before they could spot trouble and help people steer clear, now they have to cherry pick the villain that they are spying on.  However, the V5 have many ongoings that are horrible, so deck manipulation/control has its place in the sun!

2. Heroes with reliable AoE damage are spectacular.  Tools, weapons, and powers that used to be overlooked can really come to the fore and save everyone.  Expat's SMG, in particular, can be a godsend, especially loaded with Cryo rounds.  

3. Tanky heroes can save everyone, as the villains tend to do damage in 1-2 point increments to the highest, and the H mechanic isn't used very often.  So any hero that can take 2 points of damage without flinching can save everyone a world of hurt.  It can sometimes be more useful to prioritize getting armor out than attack, as the interspaced nature of the turns means you'll be taking a lot of hits for the team while you wait for your next turn.

the naturalist and the Sentinels are especially fantastic against the V5.  the naturalist because he can start tanking with Rhino from the very start (as he can search his deck for it), and the Sentinels in the later game.  Mainstay's chains and Human shield can save everyone, and the V5 focus on high-HP targets (except for the baron) can help keep them alive until then.  Plus, they have some absolutely wonderful AoE attacks.

4. Villain order:

Baron Blade: Take him out ASAP.  he buffs everyone, hinders you, and generally makes the V5 stronger.  

Friction:  It can be tempting to leave her alone and let her kill herself, but she can hit SUPER hard if she gets enough stuff in her trash, strip away all your things, and make the baddies play more cards.  If you can hinder her card play by taking out her gear with AoE attacks, go for it, but if you only have the one punch, aim it at her directly.

Ermine: She can make everyone lose their hand and can severely foul up planning.  If you have people who can help get the cards you need, leave her be until the leaders are nullified.  If she is limiting your options to the point where you can't do anything, then she has to go.

Proletariat: If his ongoings, particularly everyman's strength comes out, drop everything and put him (or the ongoings) down.  If you can manage his clones through AoE, tanking, or are hitting with psychic damage (which he cannot redirect), then he is less of a priority.   

 Fright train hits hard, but if you can manage it save him for last because thats pretty much all he does.  the caveat is that if you are in an environment with lots of high HP targets, you absolutely need to be prepared for a massive last stop.