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New Nemeses - Comments and Speculations (Vengeance Spoilers)

61 posts · 5165 views · started 2014-02-04 03:15 UTC
EN
Envisioner
2014-02-04 03:15 UTC
#1

Okay, well with my finances where they are, I'm not certain whether I'll be able to buy Vengeance when it hits the shelves, so I gave in and read this spoiler.  So I don't know what the cards do and I haven't seen any of the other art, but I've got enough here to form opinions with.  Here are some thoughts I've begun to form.

  • Man-Grove is the most amazing name ever, closely followed by the Radio-Activist.

  • Choke looks really cool, from the little bit of her I can see in that rather small picture.

Equity is also a really cool concept, particularly going by his name - presumably he's a lot like Two-Face, only with a corporate background rather than a legal one.

  • Highbrow is a very obvious Leader homage, but that's a great name for one.

  • Citizen Slash may be "No Executions", and the Crackjaw Crew is almost certainly "The Whole Gang", plus Doc Tusser is obviously "Dead or Alive" as well as Terrible Tech-Strike and Eye on the Prize (although it seems likely my theory of him being an immortal alien is shot; more likely he mutated himself with drugs, perhaps acquired through a predecessor of Pike Industries).  This means we know who everyone in CR's deck is!  (Actually by now we probably know everyone in just about all of the pre-Vengeance decks.)

But with those quick comments aside, there now comes a rant.  Now, admittedly, I'm not seeing most of the picture here, so I may be way off base.  But it seems to me as though a lot of these nemesis-assignments are rather forced, having been done to force these characters into a "one nemesis per hero (including three yet-to-be-revealed heroes)" pattern, just for the sake of doing so.  I'm not going to worry about the things that we obviously have no way to guess at, like why Tantrum is Sky-Scraper's nemesis when we have so little information about either of them.  But these questions seem glaringly obvious to me:

  • Why is The Seer Fanatic's nemesis when we've only seen him fighting Nightmist?

  • Ruin makes some sense as Akash'Bhuta's nemesis, but very little as far as I can see for having a grudge against AA or vice versa, any more than he would against anyone else.  Why not pair him with Natch?

  • Equity is almost unquestionably one of the four figures who are seen on Rook City Wraith's incap side.  Two of those individuals are Wraith's nemeses, and the third remains unknown.  Why exactly is Equity not a Wraith nem?

  • Vyktor definitely should be Tempest's nem, but shouldn't he maybe also be Sky-Scraper's?

  • Is Calypso Ra's nemesis for any reason other than a lame "water beats fire" shtick?

  • Highbrow is a very obvious Leader homage.  Since the Leader is Hulk's nemesis, and Haka is the closest SOTM analogue to Hulk, shouldn't Highbrow maybe be another Haka nem?  (This one is not terribly convincing even to me; after all, Hulk's mini-nem is Hippo, who's obviously equatable to Rhino, who's opposed to Spider-Man…not sure if we really have a Spidey analogue in SOTM, probably Setback is closest…but if Hippo was Setback's nem then I'd be asking why he wasn't Haka's, for the same reason as my first point above.)

  • And to really get nitpicky about it, on one level I like that the Sentinels got a four-member team as their mini-nem, but at the same time, I'm looking at the Vengeance Five, the Ennead, and minion-based villain decks like La Capitan and Citizen Dawn, and going "why the blue blazes would four individuals be one target card?  Are they physically attached to each other?  If not, why are they not distinct individuals?"  I realize there's probably a good answer, and there doesn't even really need to be one; again, I'm semi-satisfied with the way this comes out, but I still think that it begs the question.

If there is information on Vengeance cards which helps to clear any of this puzzlement up, please feel free to share.

LY
lynkfox
2014-02-04 04:51 UTC
#2

 

No executions I'm fairly certain is Citizen Truth/Dare. No beard and wrong hair style for Slash.

 

We most certainly do not know everyine in the pre-vengeance. See Sentinel Comics Wiki - Sentinels of the Multiverse

 

 

This pattern was broken with Iron Legacy a long time ago. Plus the Freedom Five have their own Nemesis and the Vengeful Five. These are just small time mini guys who aren't as good as full characters or only have small story archs. The Nemesis in this case is possibly that that bad guy was featured in said nemesis comic series rather than any sort of 'Nemesis' feeling of utter hatred/compitition.

 

See  Sentinel Comics Wiki - Sentinels of the Multiverse for more on lining up. The Mini Nemesis give a new nemesis to every single Hero currently released and 3 new ones (Possibly the two from WotC and a Mini Expansion or the next Expansion)

 

 

Because the storyline is already written. Probably involved in the comics of those heroes.

 

 

 

You'll notice he is standing with Ermine and Spite - two known nemesis of Wraith. The third is a figure that is likely seen on Setbacks 'High Risk Behavior' card - which means nothign to us yet … and Equity is inside Ermine's deck. So likely, in the Comics, Ermine's little crew includes Equity, and Ermines background is from Rook City, so that adds a link to Rook City Wraith - its very possible also that because it is /Rook City/ wraith, those are 4 villains from Rook City, But Equity deals more with The Naturalist rather than Wraith.

 

 

We have no information on Sky-Scraper yet. The /thought/ makes sense that she is the huge Thorathian seen in many pictures (given the growing style nemesis icon) but not gauranteed. Again, we also do not know the comic storyline developed by Christopher and Adam.

 
Because even though they are inspired by certain characters, they are not exactly those characters, nor is their comic series have any relation to the stories in Marvel/DC Comics. They may be based/inspired, but they have their own stories behind them.  
 
 
[quote="Envisioner"]
And to really get nitpicky about it, on one level I like that the Sentinels got a four-member team as their mini-nem, but at the same time, I'm looking at the Vengeance Five, the Ennead, and minion-based villain decks like La Capitan and Citizen Dawn, and going "why the blue blazes would four individuals be one target card?  Are they physically attached to each other?  If not, why are they not distinct individuals?"  I realize there's probably a good answer, and there doesn't even really need to be one; again, I'm semi-satisfied with the way this comes out, but I still think that it begs the question.
[/quote]
 
Because... who cares? Mechanics can change, cards have represented groups before (Blade Battalion) and as a gang they probably roam together often. Doesn't really seem like a big deal at all.
PH
phantaskippy
2014-02-04 04:52 UTC
#3

The seperate HP for teams usually mean that team has unique differences that contribute to the team, the crackjack crew could just be some really tough guys that fight like a mob, and therefore fall under mob HP like Omni's T-1000's and the Blade Battalions.

LY
lynkfox
2014-02-04 04:57 UTC
#4

Oh And another thing

 

 

You're making a lot of assumptions based on story, but remember - the story we don't know it. Its all be written already and hasnt been changed since the start, confirmed by Adam this past weekend. They know where these guys are how they interact because they wrote it as they want to 

EN
Envisioner
2014-02-04 07:02 UTC
#5

Maybe it's not Slash, I couldn't see his picture terribly well, but it's definitely not Truth or Dare (I believe both are different individuals, their "or" status is just a game effect as far as I know), if we're going by facial hare.  No Executions has massive sideburns.

We most certainly do not know everyine in the pre-vengeance.

Well, not "everyone", but an awful lot of former enigmas got cleared up all at once here.  I think it's at least half the characters that were previously on the Artwork Unknown Character Speculation thread.

This pattern was broken with Iron Legacy a long time ago.

I'm not counting him any more than I'm counting the Vengeance Five, nor do I consider Scholar's need for a nemesis satisfied by the Hermetic.  I will be disappointed if the game ends without every hero having exactly one "proper" Nemesis.  Even then, I'll be a little sad that the Freedom Five are as over-represented as they are (and Tempest and Unity a little bit so), because the other characters are cool too.  But I'm reconciled to the fact that the creators have chosen to focus on those five.  I just hope they don't distort the game too much more than that overall.  A person whose favorite hero is Visionary or Omnitron-X shouldn't feel like they're missing out on some of the game's awesomeness because they get so many fewer nemesis "pings" than someone who favored Wraith or Tachyon would.

These are just small time mini guys who aren't as good as full characters

"Yeah?  Well, your mom isn't as good as a full character!"

…By which I mean, I don't believe anyone deserves to be dismissed as an unimportant character.  Everyone is the hero of their own story; some of us may be more inherently interesting, but we all deserve to be shown some attention by a "creator" (no I'm not being religious, just metaphorical) that thinks we're worth lavishing some descriptive detail upon.

Mmm…good point.  It's still gonna bug me a little, especially if we never find out their names or anything, since they're clearly quite distinct individuals.  But the storytelling in SOTM is minimalist enough that I'm probably never going to be entirely satisfied; it after all only pretends to be based on a series of hundreds of comics, rather than those comics actually being available to read.

I hope that's true; all I'm saying is that, from my admittedly limited vantage point, I don't see it in several cases.

LY
lynkfox
2014-02-04 07:32 UTC
#6

 

Consider the Mini nemeses give one to every hero already released, I don't think these are going to be the 'Only' nemesis at all for those heroes who have not yet had a 'main' nemesis. 

 

From the looks of it, everyone will have 2 nemesis - their 'Main' and a small one, and then the Freedom Five have the Vengeance Five and the Freedom Six have Iron Legacy to boot. I would not be surprised to see more 'Mini Nemesis' for farther released heroes down the line.

JI
JimmytheRat
2014-02-04 07:38 UTC
#7

I would find it very strange and disappointing if every hero didn't get one single-nemesis villain deck counterpart.  I don't care so much about an equalized distribution, but everybody needs at least a little nemesis lovin' all to themselves.

EG
eggroll20xd6
2014-02-04 08:17 UTC
#8

Envisioner wrote:

I'm not counting him any more than I'm counting the Vengeance Five, nor do I consider Scholar's need for a nemesis satisfied by the Hermetic.  I will be disappointed if the game ends without every hero having exactly one "proper" Nemesis.  Even then, I'll be a little sad that the Freedom Five are as over-represented as they are (and Tempest and Unity a little bit so), because the other characters are cool too.  But I'm reconciled to the fact that the creators have chosen to focus on those five.  I just hope they don't distort the game too much more than that overall.  A person whose favorite hero is Visionary or Omnitron-X shouldn't feel like they're missing out on some of the game's awesomeness because they get so many fewer nemesis "pings" than someone who favored Wraith or Tachyon would.

 

 

 

The great thing about this game is that even though the story may seem to focus on the Freedom Five, that doesn't mean you as a player need to focus on them.  If comic book history has shown us anything, it is that every character can have a large or small role.  I feel that with these new mini-nemesis decks, GTG has given us as fans and gamers the ability to mix it up a bit.  While there is definitely a "storyline," every game you play is your own story.  

For a while on BGG, I decided to try and chronicle my games in a "story mode" to create a timeline, but it is my timeline and my multiverse.  Look at what others are doing creating their own custom heroes and villains as well.  They may not be "cannon," but again GTG has given us a great template to go beyond what they had planned and I for one applaud them for that.  I personally love the Freedom Five and introduce most people using those characters, but I have played with every character released and have had some great fights.  In the end, nemesis don't really make a big difference to me except for extra damage to the team or to the villain, they are just there for flavor.

 

SI
Silverleaf
2014-02-04 10:54 UTC
#9

If I was in any doubt as to the completeness and complexity of the storylines in the Multiverse, my meeting with Christopher confirmed to me that there's a full, rich, intertwined set of plots going on there which we haven't seen half of yet.

I don't believe that any of the connections are shoehorned in - there are good reasons for everything but we just don't know them right now. But we will by the end of this arc. 

Actually, I think we know more than we realise, we just haven't made the appropriate leaps yet. Christopher told me that we're asking the wrong questions. 

PQ
PePe_QuiCoSE
2014-02-04 13:55 UTC
#10

"No Executions" - isn't this guy Baron Blade? Scar and all. Makes sense thematically or by analgoy: Lex Luthor / Doc Doom helped when bigger threats appeared (and turn on the heroes ASAP).

Also Fright Train could be added to Bunker's list for Flak Cannon

 

edit: Also, isn't Ambuscade on Expat's Tactical Shotgun?

pretty sure Embolden shows Legacy and Visionary confirmed somewhere.

edit2: Demoralization is the guy from the Dreamer's deck, the Toy Master.

RO
Ronway
2014-02-04 14:29 UTC
#11

The symbol on "No Executions" is the logo for the Citizens of the Sun. Meaning that the person depicted is most likely a Citizen of the Sun.

LY
lynkfox
2014-02-04 14:35 UTC
#12

No certainty on Tactical Shotgun - could be, but Ambuscade has never had green glowing eyes before. My vote is on a battalion but ... they never have had guns. So no idea. Changed it a little

 

Embolden are not very confirmed sillhouettes - so they could be Legacy and Visionary but without a link to a post by Adam/Christopher or from someone saying they asked them, only a possiblity.

 

Good call on Demoralization

RO
Ronway
2014-02-04 14:38 UTC
#13

Someone hasn't played enough games in the MDP then.

LY
lynkfox
2014-02-04 14:40 UTC
#14

The only one in the MDP with a gun is the 'gunner' and the flavor text make it clear only a few were given /beam/ cannons - not assault rifles like that pic.

MC
McBehrer
2014-02-04 15:45 UTC
#15

Silverleaf, could you give a little more context? What -- EXACTLY -- did you ask about that prompted the "wrong questions" comment?

MC
McBehrer
2014-02-04 15:51 UTC
#16

Whoever's updating the wiki, the guy on Dark Watch ExPat's incap fighting against the Argent Adept is Revenant. Looking at the back of the Vengeance box, he is using the same red energy, and seeing as they are likely inside REVOCorp, it would make sense for him to be there. Plus he fits the sillouette, and can fly, as seen on his card.

 

Also, the guy on Feral Fury is a Blade Battalion Mechanic from the MDP, the grey thing on Reveal the Flaws is NOT the same as the thing in Mists of Time, Unique Capabilites is SET, not Anubis, the orange melty guy from High-Risk Behavior is definitely NOT the Radio-Activist (they don't look at all alike, except they're orange) -- compare between Volatile Parts and Powered Shock Wave; Powered Shock Wave is Radioactivist, Volatile parts is ABSOLUTELY NOT.

RO
Ronway
2014-02-04 15:54 UTC
#17

Like inside the Physical building? To me it looks like they are on a roof.

EN
Envisioner
2014-02-04 15:54 UTC
#18

And, once again, SIDEBURNS.  Am I the only one who sees them?

BO
boxwood
2014-02-04 15:58 UTC
#19

That doesn’t look inside, it looks outside. It looks like they’re at the mobile defense platforms.

SI
Silverleaf
2014-02-04 15:59 UTC
#20

It wasn't really in response to anything specific. He was basically saying that if we asked the right questions, he'd give us the answers/confirm stuff, but that we're not asking the right things so he's not telling us. Unless I'm remembering that incorrectly, which is absolutely possible.

The implication of course is that there's something we're missing. 

LY
lynkfox
2014-02-04 16:13 UTC
#21

[quote="McBehrer"]

Whoever's updating the wiki, the guy on Dark Watch ExPat's incap fighting against the Argent Adept is Revenant. Looking at the back of the Vengeance box, he is using the same red energy, and seeing as they are likely inside REVOCorp, it would make sense for him to be there. Plus he fits the sillouette, and can fly, as seen on his card.

[/quote]

 

Ill put it as a possiblity. The Revo-corp thing doesnt seem to fit to me (like others have said MDPs) but the back of the box is good evidence.

 

[quote="Envisioner"]

 

Ronway wrote:
PePe QuiCoSE wrote:
"No Executions" - isn't this guy Baron Blade? Scar and all.

 

The symbol on "No Executions" is the logo for the Citizens of the Sun. Meaning that the person depicted is most likely a Citizen of the Sun.

And, once again, SIDEBURNS.  Am I the only one who sees them?

[/quote]

 

Yes.

 

I don't see sideburns. At least not major ones The forward facing picture is just the scratchyness of the art style, the sideways picture clearly has his hair ending well before the bottom of his ear, with at best tiny 1/2" sideburns. Nothing specific, and the pictures of Truth and Dare match. Plus, again, as PePe said - the Rise Icon in the middle indicating Citizens of the Sun

PH
phantaskippy
2014-02-04 16:21 UTC
#22

Does anyone know how long Christopher has been mulling this universe and making storylines?

If he's anything like most of us who created our own world it is way more in depth and entertwined than he would ever be able to tell us, short of maybe making several thousand comics over a ton of years.

I have a world I set things in that I could spend years talking about without being able to explain things fully.  I'd bet a good number of us do.

 

RO
Ronway
2014-02-04 16:27 UTC
#23

Not sure how long the Sentinels Universe has been mulling over inside of Christopher and Adam's heads. But there is evidence of Adam's Setback, Writhe, and Fright Train being around about 4 years before Sentinels of the Multiverse. I would be willing to bet that some of these characters have been around since the guys were Teenagers, possibly younger.

LY
lynkfox
2014-02-04 16:29 UTC
#24

Setback and Revenant were some of the first characters adam created. (Confirmed Gathering of Heroes 2014)

 

Also, the story has been set since they started producing the game (with obvious allowances for the Create a Villain contest, but I think they were just slotted into available positions) - and has not changed since they started printing. (Also confirmed by adam gathering of heroes 2014)

PQ
PePe_QuiCoSE
2014-02-04 17:05 UTC
#25

Actually Ronway was the one mentioning it. I don't remember the icon at all to be honest, I'll need to re-check the card when at home.

Btw, is there a reason to not add Fright Train to Bunker's Flak Cannon?

Awesome work lynkfox!

LY
lynkfox
2014-02-04 18:06 UTC
#26

because I'm not the only one who can update wiki ;)

 

If you see things that I missed and am only human, feel free to add them. That's what a wiki is for. I police it for random unconfirmed stuff or things in the wrong places or what not, but otherwise wiki's are for a collaborate effort to add information.

 

So if you have it, add it. :)

 

Flak cannon has been added

PQ
PePe_QuiCoSE
2014-02-04 18:28 UTC
#27

Do'h, for some reason I thought it was private for editing. Joining.

EN
Envisioner
2014-02-06 05:37 UTC
#28

Did you get any info on Revenant?  Going from his art, he doesn't seem interesting enough to have hung onto for all these years, waiting to build a game around him that would end up containing so many MUCH more compelling characters, and relegating him to a fairly minor role in the schemes of a (barely) more interesting villain, who is himself far from the best thing about this universe (sorry to anyone who thinks Baron Blade is the coolest and most original thing ever, but I suspect there aren't very many of you).

PL
PlatinumWarlock
2014-02-06 05:58 UTC
#29

Not every character gets to be (or needs) to be Hamlet.  Osric, Rosencrantz, and Fortinbras all have their places as well.

GR
Greywind
2014-02-06 07:01 UTC
#30

Countess de Winter and Rochefort were more than sufficient foils for the musketeers, even if Richilieu was the villain of the piece.

TH
TheSoundOfTrees
2014-02-06 10:25 UTC
#31

Take a hero like Spiderman, and look at who his is Nemesis. The Green Goblin? Doc Octopus ? Both are valid candidates - and neither is especially a "spidermanly" villain if you consider their powers or abilities. The Goblin may even be seen as ridiculous. But they are among the greatest and/or more frequent ennemies of Spidey. There are also others - like the Vulture, the Sandman - who are frequent Spidey ennemies, even if they are not as "glamorous". They would fit the mini-nemesis idea. And neither has powers and/or abilities especially "anti-spidey". At least at first sight.

Nemesises are not "deduced" from the heroes abilities - sometimes even they have no relation at all to his background. They " happen". They become the hero's worst ennemy because they make a great story, or because they come back again and again, or because the readers (or writers) are inspired by them. It's not a question of power level - the hero most frequent opponent may not be the most powerful. It's a Nemesis, though : a recurring villain that you immediately associate with the hero. Not because the marketing department constructed them to be a "nemesis", but because the publication's history made it so.

A Nemesis can be a frequent adversary - even a low power, or ridiculous one. Or it can be a memorable villain who ever appeared once, but was a big challenge, or a memorable story. Or it can be a very powerful ennemy. Anything that, for a reason or another, gives a front seat to the character in the hero's stories.

SotM follows the comics' tropes. There are big guns - the villains with a deck. And there are lower level villains, who team up against team of heroes. And there are the "small" villains, the one who are just powerful enough to be a challenge for a lone hero, not for a team. The mini-nemesises who would appear a lot in the comic books issues of the related hero, but are not powerful enough to fight alone a whole team.*

The reason we may find the pairing strange, or some characters not interesting, is that we didn't read the comics. Alas.

 

* untill >G publishes a new line of expansions/games where one lone hero fights one lone villain - SotM:Duels ;)

EN
Envisioner
2014-02-07 02:05 UTC
#32

Personally I'm inclined to think that Spidey's nemesis is Venom, but then I'm a child of the modern age, and I know this borders on heresy to someone who followed Spidey from the Mighty Marvel days, when Venom wasn't yet a gleam in MacFarlane's eye.  Otherwise, I would definitely say Doc Ock fits - he's got the animal theme going on like most of Spidey's foes, and the two have completely opposite personalities.  The Goblins never really did it for me, and Hobgoblin looks much cooler than the Green one, even if his backstory is utterly idiotic.  (Personally, I'd just do a DC-style retcon and put Norman Osborne in the Hobgoblin suit, bury all other Goblin action in a deep dark hole and discourage anyone from talking about it.)

At least at first sight.Nemesises are not "deduced" from the heroes abilities - sometimes even they have no relation at all to his background.

I was just brainstorming on this topic in my SCUverse thread…virtually all of the main nemeses have a clear connection, whether because they're tied up in each other's central story arcs or because they oppose each other in an elemental way.

  • Baron Blade = hates Legacy because Legacy's father killed his father.

  • Citizen Dawn = hates Expatriette for being an inadequate daughter by her standards.

  • Voss = hates Tempest for escaping gene-bound slavery and rallying a resistance against his invasion of Earth.

  • Omnitron = Doesn't "hate" anything because it's an emotionless machine, but considers O-X an aberration which should not exist.

  • Ambuscade = This one's a weak link by my standards…Haka's status as highest-HP hero makes him the most desireable prey to hunt, I guess?  Meh.

  • Chairman = rules Rook City with an iron fist, and can't tolerate Iron Black Fist's attempt to teach the citizenry to defend themselves.

  • Matriarch = Probably the weakest link among all nemeses.  It'd never even occur to me to guess that she's related to Tachyon if the bio hadn't said so.

  • Plague Rat = Chrono-Ranger is the one who hates and hunts him, for having torn off his arm (and also for threatening to wipe out all of humanity with his disease, leading to the ruined future that Jim stumbled into).

  • Spite = No terribly strong connection to Wraith that I know of, past operating primarily on her turf.  Switching Wraith and Fixer wouldn't be terribly illogical, but I guess because Wraith was herself victimized by crime, she'd react more strongly to someone who commits crimes than to someone who merely orchestrates them, while Fixer's age and Zen studies give him a more big-picture focus.

  • Akash'Bhuta = Hates Argent for being a Virtuoso of the Void and trying to prevent her from doing what she does.

  • Apostate = Has an intimate, though currently unclear, connection to Fanatic.

  • Gloomweaver = Is a destined foe of Nightmist on a Sorcerer Supreme vs. Arch-Tyrant of the Dimensions level.

  • The Ennead = Battled Ra thousands of years ago and returned to do it again, plus their leader Atum's vessel is a professional rival of Blake Washington.

  • Iron Legacy = Has no single nemesis.

  • Kismet = Was created independently of Setback, so their connection is just what I termed a "lame fire-vs-water" one above, a la The Flash vs. The Turtle…not comics-writing at its finest, but in this case there's a very justifiable excuse of Kismet (and maybe Miss Info) being the ONLY characters in SOTM not to be invented by the original creators.

  • La Capitan = Has a timey-wimey ouroborous relationship with the Sentinels where each swore revenge against the other because of what the other did in their own past.

  • The Dreamer = Is essentially a disease which Vanessa traveled back in time to cure.

  • Miss Information = Again, the connection is weak; Miss Info was probably not originally part of the SOTM storyline, although it's conceivable that Highbrow might have originally been meant to fill her exact position in the setting (but probably having different mechanics).  Not knowing much about Parse, I can't really speculate here.

Not because the marketing department constructed them to be a "nemesis", but because the publication's history made it so.

I'm tentatively inclined to disagree with you here.  I think it's eminently possible for a hero and villain to be created as nemeses without requiring history - an obvious example would be the Runaways vs. the Pride, or for that matter Luke Skywalker vs. Darth Vader (and Han Solo vs. Jabba the Hutt, that being the sum total of the nemesis relationships in the original trilogy).

JA
jagarciao
2014-02-08 05:20 UTC
#33
Just got my copy so I'm a little late joining this... but...
 
Speaking of nemesis... so considering that there are only three featured nemeses without a hero in the V5 deck the conclusions drawn are either:
 
a) there are only three heroes left in the game. Which would likely be two in the next expansion and one mini-expansion. Which would mean the final Mega-Expansion would use existing heroes only. 
 
b) there will be additional decks added to the V5 which will feature any heroes that appear later. Or 
 
c) some new heroes just won't have a nemesis in the V5 deck... which would be kinda lame IMO. 
EN
Envisioner
2014-02-08 08:27 UTC
#34

Or D) The remaining heroes in the game are either relatives of Our Heroes (eg. Thiago as Legacy) or redeemed villains (eg Matriarch in place of Tachyon), and thus use the same nemesis icons.

EN
Envisioner
2014-02-11 04:05 UTC
#35

Took a better look at Choke's picture and noticed two interesting things.

1.  She seems to be surrounded by floating metal devices, possibly flashlights or cameras.  Perhaps the name "choke" is not literal, but refers to the idea of "choking" when on-camera or otherwise before an audience?  Maybe her power is to stop people from speaking?  How that would translate to being KNYFE's nemesis, I have no idea.

2.  We've all giggled for one reason or another about Power Girl's "boob window" and other examples of ridiculously sexualized costumes for females in Comicland.  Choke has a version that I can't recall having ever seen before...she's wearing metal "chaps" which completely bare her inner thighs!

LY
lynkfox
2014-02-11 06:15 UTC
#36

I believe choke's powers are similar to Unity -  but maybe instead of full ferokensis, she just has Telekenisis. Either that or those are some sort of FILTER weapons.

TE
Tegre
2014-02-11 06:45 UTC
#37

Could it be possible for future "Promo Villain" Packs for Vengence 5 that a new 20 card deck would appear with a few more Villains included in it?  Even the Sinister Six cycled through a few people in their Roster and replaced a few others.  One could speculate on the "Story" that Baron Blade's forumla burned him out, but another Villain seeking revenge gathered up the other four.  That could make up for any "new" characters without a Nemesis.

EN
Envisioner
2014-02-11 19:05 UTC
#38

If any new heroes come out after Sky, Guise and CC, I hope that we get a "Vengeance Six" mini-expansion deck containing nemeses for the new ones.  Maybe with Ambuscade and Mirror Girl?

On Choke, can someone who has vengeance look at her card and confirm that she's actually Choke, rather than C.H.O.K.E.?  The SOTM font doesn't distinguish capitalization, and it might be easy to miss the periods.

EDIT - Karl Marx approves.

GR
Greywind
2014-02-11 20:11 UTC
#39

It is not an acronym.

LY
lynkfox
2014-02-11 21:00 UTC
#40

If it had been an acronym, i would have put it as C.H.O.K.E on the wiki, like K.N.Y.F.E

EV
EvanDan55
2014-02-12 04:35 UTC
#41

Do you guys think that KNYFE and Choke were friends, though? For the Greater Good has KNYFE stabbing Choke, and taking a hefty psychic damage hit for it. The flavor text also seems to indicate that KNYFE knew a bit more about Choke.

And to be fair, how do we know Choke isn't an acronym? Has it been stated? KNYFE's name is spelled without the periods in the card texts of her deck, like Choke's. Did we ever get an explicit statement that Choke is NOT an acronym?

EN
Envisioner
2014-02-12 04:38 UTC
#42

Camera Halo Observer of Killing Events.  Calling it now.

PH
phantaskippy
2014-02-12 12:43 UTC
#43

Can't Handle 0K Environments?

JA
jagarciao
2014-02-12 20:01 UTC
#44

So all the Citizens are always part of a group or a pair at the very least. Have we seen Citizen Slash's grouping yet? Any candidates for Citizen Burn?

AL
Arcanist_Lupus
2014-02-12 21:28 UTC
#45

What about Citizen Hack?

BR
broccoli
2014-02-12 21:50 UTC
#46

Citizen Gun and Citizen Rose?  Come on, somebody else had to be thinking it.

EV
EvanDan55
2014-02-13 00:30 UTC
#47

Wasn't there a thread a long time ago about possible Citizen names? I remember Adam stating that there was serious consideration for Citizen Peanut Butter and Citizen Jelly.

Someone go find that thread.

PH
phantaskippy
2014-02-13 15:21 UTC
#48

And when Citizen Time entered play everyone lost.

MA
Matchstickman
2014-02-13 16:40 UTC
#49

[url= http://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/hero-personalities ]Found[/url]

The confirmation is much less impressive than the speculation.

CH
Christopher
2014-02-13 16:54 UTC
#50

I remember Adam stating that there was serious consideration for Citizen Peanut Butter and Citizen Jelly.

...for certain definitions of "serious".

GR
Greywind
2014-02-13 18:03 UTC
#51

...Yahoo Serious.

EV
EvanDan55
2014-02-14 00:10 UTC
#52

*An amount of consideration

Hadn't seen the thread in a while.

DA
danmarshall14
2014-02-14 17:28 UTC
#53

In case lynkfox is checking in, I noticed a needed addition on that wiki Nemeses page.

The Operative!

RA
Rabit
2014-02-14 17:43 UTC
#54

Feel free to make the change, danmarshall14. It's a wiki! ![](upload://lNCUQFYSA7ZMqVCMtPuFwzz40RT.gif)

LY
lynkfox
2014-02-14 17:47 UTC
#55

exactly! or if you dont ill get to it tonight after valentines with my lady

DA
danmarshall14
2014-02-14 20:05 UTC
#56

I would change it myself, but I'm on the forums via my phone at work (Shhh, don't tell anyone!)

RE
Reckless
2014-02-14 20:31 UTC
#57

Best Einstein ever.

LY
lynkfox
2014-02-15 04:01 UTC
#58

Changed :)

CH
Chaosmancer
2014-02-16 04:37 UTC
#59

A few things in response:

Ruin's flavor text gives some indication of his relationship with AA: "I devour melody. I disrupt harmony. I defy rhythm". So from a story perspective he is a being which is in opposition to order and pattern.

Calypso is also in keeping with the ancient goddess theme, representing to seas and oceans. I don't know if she appeared in Egyptian mythology, they focused more on the Nile, but I bet the connection is stronger than fire vs water

The cooling towers in the background of his art make me think it would be more "radioactiv-ist" than "radio-activist". I also wonder if that flavor text is directed at Unity. Combining it with "Caspit's 'playground'" in the Freedom Tower leads to some interesting possibilities for Unity's future.

The Seer has two possibilities. One is a clash of beliefs, flavor text contains the lines "Is this Reality" and "Life is Pain". This could lead to a dark version of Buddhism which conflicts with Fanatic's worldview. Also, I don't get how his nemesis text is bad for heroes "All hero targets are immune to damage from hero targets". Not being able to hurt ourselves is typically an advantage, isn't it?

Vyktor's art makes me wonder is our friend here might have more of a hand in the gene-bound proccess than we thought, and if that is so Tempest would hate this guy a lot. Also, we have, as was pointed out, no idea how Sky-scraper (I'm totally in with this being giant thorian girl) feels about Voss or his people.

 

EN
Envisioner
2014-02-16 05:37 UTC
#60

For the first time tonight, I looked closely enough at Nightmist's "Call Forth" to comprehend that there was indeed a humanoid figure (who we now know to be Man-Grove) there; before I just saw a background thingy that might have been a Shoggoth or something for all I could tell, I didn't really think about it, but looking again now, I saw his mouth and "got it".  It was a happy moment.

Ah, interesting.  He still looks more anti-Naturalist to me, and that name likewise suggests a more physical form of destructiveness.  I might have gone with a name like Havoc or Cacophony if he's more "a being which is in opposition to order and pattern."  But no doubt there will be more info to come, so I'll wait and see, eagerly.

Calypso is also in keeping with the ancient goddess theme, representing to seas and oceans. I don't know if she appeared in Egyptian mythology

Going by the name, she is almost certainly Greek.  Checking on The Other Wiki…yep!  Someone who has more time for reading the Wiki than I currently do, let us know if you see anything particularly strong in the myth suggesting a comparison.  (Then again, if the fan theory that Ra's Staff is an Atlantean artifact is true, it makes PERFECT sense, as Atlantis is a greek myth about an older - as Egypt is - civilization which was swallowed by the ocean - which Calypso might control.  Lots of potential for a connection there which isn't strictly about their legendry, but rather an actual connection between these individuals.)

The cooling towers in the background of his art make me think it would be more "radioactiv-ist" than "radio-activist".

Well not "radio" as in "the one in your car", but I'm assuming that he's The Radioactive Activist.  It would certainly explain why he hangs around with Proletariat, who's an idealistic Communist from the depths of the Cold War, when the fear of nuclear annihilation hung over everyone's head.

The Seer has two possibilities. One is a clash of beliefs, flavor text contains the lines "Is this Reality" and "Life is Pain". This could lead to a dark version of Buddhism which conflicts with Fanatic's worldview.

Interesting…makes me hope we'll hear more about him.

Also, I don't get how his nemesis text is bad for heroes "All hero targets are immune to damage from hero targets". Not being able to hurt ourselves is typically an advantage, isn't it?

Not for Fanatic or Absolute Zero.  Also it means none of the Rule Fifteen cards (eg Tachyon's Pushing the Limits or KNYFE's Overdo It) can be kept in play past the start or end of the appropriate turn (which, from what I've heard, makes Overdo It completely useless unless played out of turn).  Since this text only applies if Fanatic is in the game, at least one player will suffer as a result - she has a whopping three Rule Fifteen cards (Chastize and Divine Focus need to hurt herself, Embolden needs to hurt whoever she plays it on), plus Sacrosanct Martyr is entirely useless if she can't hurt herself, and Wrathful Retribution is harder to set up.  I'm probably forgetting a few.  And Redeemer Fanatic especially hates it, since her power is to heal herself and thus if she's never getting hurt, it's fairly redundant.

Vyktor's art makes me wonder is our friend here might have more of a hand in the gene-bound proccess than we thought, and if that is so Tempest would hate this guy a lot.

Yep, we already know Vyktor has a pre-existing enmity with Tempest, if he's kept busy after Voss was Mistbound, then no surprise he would "upgrade" to nemesis status.

Also, we have, as was pointed out, no idea how Sky-scraper (I'm totally in with this being giant thorian girl) feels about Voss or his people.

If she was in fact Thorathian, she certainly ought to have an opinion about Voss, since he took over the whole planet and wiped out the legitimate government.  If she was like a loyalist to the original Thorathian rulers who came to Earth to get away from Voss, then it would be strange for her NOT to have a nemesis bonus against him.  However, some on this forum have speculated she may instead be a human girl spliced with Thorathian DNA or something to that effect, in which case she probably doesn't really give a fudge about Voss, beyond the fact that he's trying to kill everyone on her home planet ("nothing personal, it's just business").  It'll be interesting to see why Tantrum is an opponent to her; they might well know each other.

YG
Yak_Guardian
2014-02-17 06:21 UTC
#61

Miss Information is likely Parse's Nemesis because (based on the art on one of Parse's cards (don't have them in front of me to cite the card name right now)) Parse's ability to see connections where others don't allowed her to reveal Miss Information as the Villain she is, preventing MI from achieving her goal of revenge on the F5.