New Promo Heroes/Villains

I saw a link to this on BGG and I was surprised not to see a thread here:

https://greaterthangames.com/content/the-end-of-the-year-brings-many-new-things

Maybe I just missed it?

My question is: Will the promos be included if I order the errata pack? I have everything else so the errata pack is the only reason I would place an order.

Also, have the card sizes been standardized at some point? I ordered a few replacement cards a few months ago to replace some damaged or slightly misprinted cards but only about 1 in 8 of them were the same size as the cards I was trying to replace and thus ended up just being extras. I’m concerned that the same thing will happen with the errata pack cards, but I 'll order them anyway just for the promos assuming that’s a possibility.

Now on with the discussion of the new promos/conjecture for how the two villains will be different!

I love the idea of a supernaturally powered Spite.  The idea of him getting his powers from Gloomweaver?  Brilliant!

I am so excited by these.  Gah!

This is just the inspiration I need to finally purchase the oversized villain cards.

Dark Watch Expatriette is awesome.  Hairtrigger reflexes for the win!

And also, end of turn. . . that's a nice power.  Real nice.

Fixer, um, Yes Please!!  Bloody knuckles is now the greatest card ever.

Play Knuckles, Use power, destroy Knuckles.

5 damage before tools or styles or meditation?  boom!!  and no nasty side effects from getting your hands bloody.  Apparently none of it is your blood.

His lack of a non-explosive power means he'll be sitting for certain turns waiting, but when he strikes, it is going to bring the pain.

The Question:  Does Bitter strike count as Strike?  or is overdrive a wasted card.  I assume it would, which just really ups the cost of overdrive, will require planning before you use it.  My goodness, go ahead and hurt 'em Fixer.  Dang.

Tool box being explodable is awesome.

Nightmist takes a small step back in speed, but sets her deck up for that lovely Oblivion you've been dreaming of. (or anything else)

And setback, we know his alt. power before we know his base power. . . that's cool right?

I don't know how Setback's new one affects his deck, but the others appear to be much more about picking your shots and holding back a bit other times.

I'm so pumped right now.

You will definitely get promo cards if you order the errata pack.

Bitter Strike absolutely still counts as Strike.

Thanks Christopher, Paul, Adam and all the people we don't know by name that helped make this happen.

Seriously I'm so excited I'm going a bit crazy.

I really love the feel of the Dark Watch heroes, and I'm only sad I don't have Setback so I can't run a dark watch vs. every villain death run.

Also Promo Gloomy and Spite, it's the two I wanted most, it's like Christmas or something.

It says Strike...

Also, it's not conditional, so you CAN use Charge and Bitter Strike on your first turn if you want. He also pairs well with Setback, who may WANT you to blow up some of his cards sometimes...

I can't see any of the pictures while I'm at work. I'm going to have to wait eight hours before I can actually see any of the new promos. Stupid work  laptop restrictions.

Also, will the promo villains be coming with giant villain cards? I really REALLY WANT THEM TO. I NEED THEM TO.

We will print oversized cards for the Spite and GloomWeaver promos when we do another oversized card pack (which will be mid-late next year).

I also have this need! But seriously though the alternate Spite is what I am most excited for.

Hi,

I also have everything except for the errata cards and the new promo cards.  I went to order them but the international shipping was $34.00.

Is there anyway to have them shipped with my copy of Vengence in February?

Same question.

Indeed it is not conditional, but even if YOU use Bitter Strike WHILE someone ELSE has a card in PLAY, YOU will HAVE to destroy their card, whether you played on Ongoing or Equipment card is irrelevant.

True. Just making sure the intent was understood clearly; from the way the comment was worded, it sounded to me like skippy read it as a conditional: if there are no cards to blow up, you can not strike.

We are looking into slower but cheaper flat rate international shipping (hopefully in the $20ish range). It should be live on the website in a week or so; we will announce it if so.

Is there any way we could have it shipped with our kickstarter rewards/pre ordered vengance?  Adding an extra wave of shipping seems wasteful to everyone involved.

OMG ALL THE NEW THINGS! :D

How do I order the new cards to get them to be added into my epic massive Vengeance-and-GSF pack that I will be getting (so as to avoid having to pay a million pounds for shipping)? :D

Omg Mr Chomps...I hope they get him over here so I can buy him for cheaper or something :D.

I know it isn't conditional, but unless you have some really nice people (looking at you dark watch Expat with your speedloading) with extra cards to destroy you are going to want to take some turns off.

Any chance of a story blurb for the Dark Watch?  I started thinking of ways to work them into storylines, just curious if there were plans to give us a little info on their story.

Mr Fixer has a LOT of styles/tools/knuckles that he can play and immediately eat. Also, if he goes first in the turn order, DW Fixer could eat all of those "destroy at start of turn" cards that would go away by themselves!

Yeah, DW Fixer (lets get dangerous) is staking a claim to that first hero spot, from the first round free hit to destroying stuff people only needed out until the villain turn ended (see ya Ground Pound, Take Down, Heroic Interception, Slip Through Time, Forms Scholar doesn't need, Alchemical redirection. . . you get the point.)  Also when Dawn pays the card that shall not be named Fixer gets to salvage yard, (and with overdrive from the trash) drop bitter strike twice for no cost.

He'll be tough to run vs. villains with limited but consistent card destruction, as you'll be trying to get ahead of the destruction so those cards won't be expendable.

Fixed Point becomes even better for Mr. Fixer.

I might have to start collecting promo cards now...

And the artwork on promo Nightmist, WOW!

Thank you for looking into cheaper options but $20ish shipping still seems excessive given Vengence is being shipped in February.  Is there anyway we could include it with Vengence?

Does anyone even consider fixer has salvage yard? Geez guys. Y'all dropping the ball here. Destroy any equipment you want imo. 

you don't have salvage yard every turn, and even using it you don't get back those card plays.  It isn't debilitating, I think he's sickly powerful but the playstyle isn't going to be strike every turn unless you build a team for it.  I could definitely see an Omnitron-X or Bunker that focuses a lot of their energy on getting Fixer cards to destroy so he can get set up and smash things.  It won't be so bad as to have him only striking every other round, but there will be turns you don't strike on your power phase because you don't have cards that are expendable.  The hardest part will be the early rounds, just getting a tool and style into play mean skipping your power or someone else giving up cards for you to use.  After you get a tool and style and some decent cards in hand it won't be tough at all, you'll still want an occasional help from an ally, but there are a decent number of cards from other decks that would be good fodder, and Toolbox and Bloody Knuckles are naturally expendable.  And you can switch in other cards as you have them.

I think it fits really well in the dark watch style of setting up for really good attacks.  Some teams it may be smart to work it so Fixer can strike every round, but many times he'll be on his own to feed his power.

When the next oversized villain card pack is done, will there be a way to get just the Spite/Gloomy oversized cards (and those from Vengeance if necessary) without getting the whole rest all over again?

Yeah, I don't want to spend $15 on a pack of oversized cards when I already have all but 2 of them.

Jaw:  dropped.

These guys are crazy.  As a non-playtester, I have no idea what Setback's "unlucky pool" and tokens therein are about, but it gives a clue of what we're dealing with.  I'm a bit disappointed, though, about the revelation that the intriguing mention of "Dark Watch" on Setback wasn't the first tease of a team of all-new heroes, but just the grouping together of a bunch of existing ones.  (In particular I feel like it's a bit cheap to stick Expat and Fixer in the same team when they were already in the same expansion.  I'd rather that Ra had been on the team instead of either Fixer or Expat, both of whom I think have a built-in promo concept in their backstory (Black Fist and Citizen Whatever-Dawn-Called-Her-Daughter-Besides-Amanda).

A few rules questions present themselves:

1.  Does Fixer's Bitter Strike count as Strike for all purposes?  Notably, can you Bitter Strike twice after Overdriving?  Also, am I correct that you lose nothing if you Bitter Strike when there's nothing to destroy?

2.  Is Mitigate meant to reduce "the next damage dealt to any hero" or "the next damage dealt to one hero of your choice"?

Love the ridiculous-looking Gambit/JeanGray neck brace thingy on Expatriette.  It just seems like the perfect thing for a Gritty 80s version of her to wear.  Also, while the new Nightmist doesn't look as Lovecraftian anymore (if anything the spirals make her seem kinda Egyptian - which again makes me want Ra on this team), she is immensely cool on her own merits.  Definitely eager to try her out, even if I think Investigation is a way better power than Attunement, which I think will take some of the fun out of playing her.  Hm, and what's that scar on Mr. Fixer?..

We don't get any mechanical details on Spite and Gloomy, but definitely interested to see how they turn out.  Spite looks absolutely magnificent, and that "zombie" on Gloomy's card is a nice callback to the original set villains (apart from Blade).

So yeah.  Very stoked about getting something actually NEW prior to the arrival of Vengeance.  Three usable new heroes and two much-anticipated villains…this is gonna be, as Lord Peter of Griffin would put it, "freakin' sweet"!

https://greaterthangames.com/comment/49496#comment-49496

Yes.

EDIT: Oh, well. I typed it out as you were crossing it out.

So now, with the Prime Wardens confirmed to be on their way, the only heroes who aren't going to have promos so far are CR, O-X, and whatever comes during and after Vengeance.  I wonder if there's going to continue to be a pattern of "all but the new heroes have promos", or if this is just a special thing for the RC/IR reprint, and there won't be similar reprints for ST and forward because they're going to stay in print.

Hmm... in opposition to my first impression, I think it's the next time ANY hero would take damage, reduce it by 2.

When was the Prime Wardens thing confirmed? As awesome as that sounds, I haven't heard anything about it.

https://greaterthangames.com/comment/44559#comment-44559

Fanatic being the last Warden is a far cry from all Warden's getting new cards.  That said I would absolutely love promo's for the others.

I'd totally have preordered Vengeance if shipping was cheaper.

I ordered a Mr. Chomp and an empty box. I also made a special request with my order. Maybe you guys will be awesome and fulfill it...

@Silverleaf

The options we are looking into will unfortunately only make shipping of very small (several ounces at the most) orders cheaper, so it wouldn't have mattered for Vengeance anyway.

Ah, okay. Never mind!

With the introduction of Argent Adept, it revealed the team known as the Prime Wardens. Which contains Haka, Fanatic, and Tempest, which are all from the same set. Yet you have no issue with that? Also Prime Wardens wasn't made with most new heroes. Only one of them have yet to make their way into the game.

I'm curious as to what the logic to this is. You would rather exclude a Dark and Gritty hero from a Dark and Gritty super hero team, to add in a hero that is neither Dark or Gritty?

I'm just glad we're finally getting promos for characters outside of the core set, with the exception of Unity. I will admit though that it's weird that we're getting a promo of Setback before he's actually released.

Like a few other guys here I have everything bar the errata pack, so to get these promos I'm looking at $40 international shipping. A cheaper option there would be amazing!

A bit of a cheeky suggestion, but I'd happily pay for something now (say, the Errata pack and / or Mr Chomps) and have you guys hang onto these, and the December promos, until February when Vengeance goes out and they can be thrown in with the rest of the KS order. Would involve a bit of messing about on your side I know, but would save me paying postage twice within the space of a few months....

The EE doesn't count.  Fixer and Expat are both from the same expansion set, and consist of the totality of that set's hero component.  If RC had contained a half-dozen gritty street-level heroes, it wouldn't have bothered me to see two of them dropped into Darkwatch (whether Expat and Fixer would have been the best two such choices is another story, but since I'm not speculating who the other heroes might be, the point is moot).  I just think it's weird to have had them already lumped together by accident of publication order, and then put them into a team - it seems forced.  Core status, however, is more than a vagary of printing…it signifies that the heroes in the core set are considered most central to SOTM, having a favored status which justifies their special treatment.

Yet you have no issue with that?

I don't know if the Multiverse page changed back when IR came out, but as of today, Fanatic's page lists Prime Wardens affiliation, while Fixer's page does not list Dark Watch affiliation.  I have every reason to assume that Fanatic was a Prime Warden all along, but there is evidence to the contrary in Fixer's case.

Also Prime Wardens wasn't made with most new heroes.

And the same is true of Darkwatch.  The characters aren't core, but they aren't new either.

I'm curious as to what the logic to this is. You would rather exclude a Dark and Gritty hero from a Dark and Gritty super hero team, to add in a hero that is neither Dark or Gritty?

We don't know exactly what the Dark Watch's theme is; if Nightmist fits, Ra might too.  Putting a sun god into a team with "Dark" in the name is a strange idea, but I thought it might be fitting by way of its very contrariness - Ra might conceptualize it as his "passage through the underworld", or see himself as bringing light (and fire) to the darkness.  Still, I admit he's not exceptionally fitting…I just picked him because I wanted a core-set hero who wasn't FV or PW, and the only other choice is Visionary, who feels to me rather as though she shouldn't ever be in a team for thematic reasons (even though I did dream up a team that included her).

Fanatic, Haka and Tempest were not originally listed as Prime Wardens. That affiliation was added later on. The idea that hero teams should be based on who was released in which expansion, rather than on character or the plot of the Multiverse, also seems rather strange to me; plus, it does make sense that the heroes from the 'dark and gritty' expansion would both be in the 'dark and gritty' hero team...

How much will a padded envelope to Singapore cost?

This is a fantastic holiday deal you are doing. Very awesome and very cool.

I do have a question about the errata pack: does it just come with those 4 cards? or does it come with multiple copies of each of those cards to allow us to replace the multiples in our decks.

I am planning to order the errata pack, the box and possibly get the raptor bot too!

Thanks so much. 

If Fixer and Ex-Pat are going to team up with anyone, it makes the most sense to team up with each other. They both live in Rook City and neither one has the ability to travel around the world at incredible speeds. Wraith has to divide her time between Rook City and her duty as a member of the Freedom Five, so I imagine there would be no permanent team up with her and the other Rook City renegades. As for Argent and Nightmist, neither one is restricted by geography, and so they're pretty much free to team up with whoever they want, and this is true with CR and Omni-X. I think it would be cool though if Omni and CR teamed up and became a bad ass time travelling duo. They could adopt Thiago and become the Time Squad.

Is it possible to obtain more than one copy of the promos?  I have a friend who doesn't Internet.

You could make two separate orders yourself and get two sets of promos, then get your friend to pay you back. I assume he'd need the errata pack as much as anybody else.

Not the most effieicnt option, I know, but it is probably the simplest.

Expat and fixer have worked beautifully together from the beginning, they are incredibly complimentary (more exclusively so than most hero pairings), that they came out in the same set makes sense, and that they would be in the same team makes sense.

Nightmist fits because she is a gritty and dark character to begin with.  She was investigating cults as a private investigator before she had powers, she wasn't writing papers to get grants and teaching classes.

Setbck isn't as clean of a fit, but I like his base power, and now we know he has some kind of token pool, so that is something.

Setback's inclusion in Dark Watch reminds me somewhat of what Marvel did with Speedball at the start of the Civil War storyline.  Speedball's carelessness led to a massive civilian tragedy and he reshaped his superheroic identity to become Penance, even wearing a suit that inflicted minor wounds on himself to remind himself of the casualties he was responsible for.

It makes me wonder if Setback's "bad luck powers" didn't eventually catch up with him, causing him to take on a somewhat darker outlook, leave the F5, and take up with a group more suited to his grimmer views.  It would also explain why Setback's new base power (not that I know his main power--I'm not a playtester) is focused on defending his allies.  It could be showing a more defensive, more conscientous Setback, rather than the happy-go-unlucky chap who tried out for the Freedom Five.

On another thread (maybe on BGG?) they clarified that it comes with sufficient copies to upgrade the decks.

I just thought of something I'd confirm about Expat's new aim ability. If used out of turn after she's already activated it it would be a +2 boost until the end of another turn wouldn't it. You could potentially set up a massive damage boost for hair-trigger reflexes with Legacy, Expat, and someone like AA... 

Wait, if Bitter Strike counts as Strike, does that mean Golem Unity counts as a Golem for Inspired Repair?

I will also point out that if she unloads two turns in a row (or Aim one turn and then Unloads the following), that second unload would allow her to get +2 to her damage. With Speed Loading in play, she could even get Shock Rounds onto one of the guns. I would say that would be one painful turn…

Ayup. Looks that way.

I don't think they will change their stance on that. Plus Inspired Repair Mechanical Golems, not just Golems. Which isn't even listed on her character card, aside from her power called "Golem-Spawn", which isn't really calling her a golem.

@Paul

If I order the errata pack now, will it also include the minor changes with RC as well? Geez, I have the original printing of RC, so the cards are not even the same size are they? Bah humbug. 

I do have a question about the errata pack: does it just come with those 4 cards? or does it come with multiple copies of each of those cards to allow us to replace the multiples in our decks.

It comes with sufficient copies to replaces the multiples in your decks!

Paul has already said that there will not be a RC errata pack because of the difference in size.

https://greaterthangames.com/comment/42447#comment-42447

Does the new RC/IR reprint have any art changes? It was said IR had no errata and RC had minor changes, I am curious if theres any new art as well? EE sure changed some art, but probably just to be more story-consistent (ie. Inventory barrage nailing Spite instead of...whoever that was was supposed to be in the original art. I think it probably was an ealy incarnation of a certain multi-toned bad guy, but I could be wrong).

Nope, no art changes.

I hope that the pixelization on "Darken the Sky" was fixed, at least?

Many, many thoughts, but little time to collect them…

One thing, though: Does anyone else get the impression Mr. Fixer has been blind this entire time and we didn't know it? Seriously, how awesome is that?!

Hmmm… Sounds like it could be possible. I can't recall anything that actually shows his eyes. I believe they are typically covered by his hat or the shadow his hat lets off.

Where did that hat go anyway I wonder…

This really calls Fixers incap side into question. Isn't that incap side pretty crystal clear that Fixer dies? Does that incap art possibly take place chronologically after the Dark Watch? 

The big picture is still missing too many pieces. Really hard to place these things.

Which leads to an old (and I'm not sure but as far as I know, unanswered) question: How does Redeemer Fanatic see through that thing on her face?!

I thought his incap translated to "The end" or something along that. It could mean that his hat died? Maybe it gave it's hat force to revive Fixer after the very bad chest wound.

Blind Faith

So, what do we all think about the new villain promos?

Skinwalker Gloomweaver counts as a zombie, and starts with pouch of bones in play! He also gets to play a card the first time a (nonvillain, I think? That bit of the photo is a bit fuzzy) target is destroyed each turn, and deals some damage to the nonvillain target with the second lowest hp each turn as well. All of which are interesting effects: he's likely to pick off (typically low hp) environment targets if there's more than one, which leads to him playing more cards, he's boosted by all of his own zombie-boosting stuff (pouch of bones, which he starts with, and Strength of the Grave, and isn't there that one cultist?), and when you defeat him, he flips into... whatever his other side is. Breaking the mortal shell of some corpse possessed by the living spirit of hatred can't be that bad an idea, right?

Agent-of-Gloom Spite starts with all his drugs in play face down, and flips them under certain conditions: I'd really have to see it in play to figure out how it works. I haven't played Spite as much but he doesn't have that many ways of getting multiple victims in play per turn that I recall, so it seems like it would be hard to get more victims under the safe house than drugs face up with one flipped up each turn, and thus you would be unlikely to ever flip a drug back facedown. Maybe his other side is the key to this and he has a way to flip back from it? Regardless, Spite with all five drugs and still getting to play cards could get a little rough.

Excited to see the other side of both of these! Come on, December 17th (+shipping time) already!

Where'd you see the rules for the villains?  I've only seen the fronts of the villain character cards, not their rules cards.

https://twitter.com/GTGamesLLC/status/407989087975391232/photo/1/large

eta: some squinting required

It could just be the death of the man he was, and he abandons his hat, as well as his hope or faith in the good of mankind (or some platitudes like that), and the emergence of this much darker and vengeful Mr. Fixer.

As to timeline I lean towards DW being first, his beard is more gray than White, and he seems younger and more Bulked up than the original, or it could be a different timeline, who knows?  It is quite possible this is Fixer before he gave up stopping crime, before his student was killed.  Man I love the idea of him breaking a pipe wrench over someone's head.  That is just crazy.

His original he reminds me of the build my grandfather had, he was a tin smith and farmer, he could cut Tin with his shears with one hand, but he didn't look big, if he wore a long sleeved shirt you wouldn't have a clue how strong he was.

Blind, yeah I thought he was, look at Bloody Knuckles, if he isn't blind he fights with his eyes closed.

Seriously? How does it call his incap into question, we just learned Spite was raised from the dead, there is a time traveling cowboy and robot, and there are two versions of the same girl walking around without a time paradox imploding the multiverse. Is it not conceivable that he was raised from the dead, or we're looking at a version displaced in time? He does look younger, with less gray in his beard and considerably buffer, just throwing it out there.

On Jack Handle, Fixer is visible without a shirt and lacks a tattoo and scar. Though he is wearing his signature hat.

Ooooh! Christopher told me that if you see Fixer without his hat, it means he's dead.

Unless I've imagined or misremembered that, this may be important. 

What if you see him with a tatoo on his chest?  What does that mean?

While not exactly a hat, it is still a head covering.  And, no, I will not be wearing one of those the next time I decide to play this game.

ALL of Dark Watch was brought back from the dead. 

It takes the Undead to take on the Undead. 

Related - Golem Unity has Fixer's hat, because Fixer's dead. Christopher was very clear about that.

So it'd make sense if the Operative killed Fixer...

Oh, look at me. I'm speculating! I never speculate. 

Hmmm. I have developed a working theory on the new Fixer.

I am very much running with the idea that Fixer was killed (most likely by the whole "sword through the heart" thing) and somehow was resurected. Possibly due to Gloomy magic shenanigans. Possibly Nightmist's new-found bond with the mists allowed her to bring him back. But most likely, the culprit behind his resurection is someone else...

Look at the art for BMFixer (Bad Mother Fuc..I mean Fixer), then scroll through his deck. Overdrive features a big ol' dragon. Same dragon as featured on the front of BMFixer. This Dragon is directly responsible for his resurection. And, if I came back from the dead, I'd be pretty damn bitter as well. There is also the matter of a certain Fu Manchu wearing villain also seen in his deck. Obviously a Chinese influenced character, and that red dragon screams "connection".

More on this theory after Vengeance goes live.

Ok, after squinting, Spite's text is somethinhg like:

Setup: At the start of the game, put Spite's villain character card into play, Agent of Gloom side up.

Remove all 5 drug cards from the villain deck and put them face down in te villain play area. Search the villain deck for the card Safe house and put it into play. shuffel the villain deck.

Game Play: At the start of the villain turn, if there are (H) cards under the Safe House, flip Spite's villain character card. If not, flip a drug card face up.

Whenever a Lab Raid would be played, discard it instead and Spite deals each hero target 3 melee damage.

At the end of the villain turn, Spite deals the hero target with the highest HP (H) infernal damage. If there are more cards under the Safe House than drug cards face up, flip a drug card facwe down.

Advanced: At the end of the villain turn, flip a drug face up.

From the looks of it, this Spite flips multiple times as it is otherwise impossible to meet the conditions at the end of the villain turn. At best, the first turn would bring out two victim cards (One from safe house, one from play). However, even if the heroes put both under the safe house, at the end of the second villain turn, when this would be checked, there would still only be two cards under and two drugs in play. At that point, the heroes can't get ahead of the drugs before they flip Spite.

Actually, there is one way. If one of the first two cards is the Good Samaritan, and the top card is a victim and the card played in turn two is also a victim, the players can get ahead of Spite's drugs (presuming there are 5 players, s otherwise, spite would flip). It seems unlikely that this would be common enough to need the end of turn conditions.

Very much looking forward to seeing this for reals.

[EDIT]: Also, my eyes hurt now.

As an aside, Spiff, will you be posting these Alt. Characters again on your site? :) I will nto be able to order from GTG directly, so I won't be able to get the promos, so even a printable one would be superb :)

Fixer's scars match the place where the Operative stabs him in ¿Undivided attention? art from The Organization deck.

I wonder if you are supposed to shuffle the face-down drug cards so you don't know which one is which, or if you are supposed to be able to pick your poison.

I think orgiinally, you're supposed to pick at rtandom but when flipping them down, you can pick. I think.

My default assumption would be that you shuffle them the first time, but after that, once you've flipped one over, you know which it is, even if it got flipped back.

Anyway, here's what I read off Gloomweaver to save other people's eyes:

Setup: At the start of the game, put Gloomweaver's character card into play, Skinwalker side up.

Search the villain deck for the card Pouch of Bones and put it into play.

Shuffle the villain deck.

Game Play: The first time a nonvillain target is destroyed each turn, play the top card of the villain deck.

When Gloomweaver would be destroyed, flip Gloomweaver's villain character card instead.

At the end of the villain turn, Gloomweaver deals the nonvillain target with the second lowest hp H minus (?) melee damage.

Advanced: Increase damage dealt by villain targets by 1.

Both of those promo villains seem downright nasty. 

Skinwalker in Tomb of Anubis, anyone?

All the extra card plays Gloomy will be getting, that doesn't sound like a easy game at all.

That was rather my point.

I know

Skinwalker doesn't start with Zombies in trash? Interesting...

He also doesn't seem to win or lose the game based on where the Relics are, though it's possible that shows up on his inverse side.

An upside down card has no text.  (mostly common sense, but I think it is official, I mean if the drugs are upside down and have text, then you wouldn't need to flip them)

An Upside down card, or a card with no text still belongs to its deck.  (Freedom Tempest ruling)

Right?

So. . . would upside down drugs be indestructible, or could Tempest put them back on top of Spite's deck with Stratosphere?

Would End of Days destroy them, but when they would go to the trash they would instead enter play?  They wouldn't go to the trash upside down, so I would think their text would be active then.  Not sure about that though.

Arranging it for two Stratosphere's to hit face down drugs then a precognition putting them at the bottom of the deck could really affect this Spite.

I think this would work.

Go Tempest, you ridiculously powerful Alien thing!

Which makes perfect sense. His relics, for his OG version, represented the three things the cultists needed to bring him into this plane of existance. Skinwalker, obviously after a bloody ritual on that stone slab, is already here. 

@Skippy, an upside down card is *not* the same as putting a card *under* another card. I do not think the ruling for one can easily be extrapolated unto the other. Feel me homie?

I think intent needs to be considered here. Tempet's Into the Strata, as well as Argents Cedistic Dissonance, might well be fair game however for those face down cards though. It's certainly a great question though.

As an aside, Spiff, will you be posting these Alt. Characters again on your site?

I've got requests out for art as we speak.  I will definitely be posting these sweet alt characters to my site.

Take a look at the DW Expat for a second. Man, that background is interesting huh? What background? Look closely.

She seems to be standing in front of a sign (think of what behind the Hollywood sign looks like in the US). She is directly in front of a massive letter. Err...behind of a massive letter.

R

Next letter? Is that an F?

The bio for Parse mentions a new organization net yet mentioned until this point. Revo Corp. 

That next letter is an E.

Shes at Revo Corp in that picture.

I would like to know why.

My thinking is that cards that are flipped have no text, and can't be interacted with except through special means.  If they are flipped, they aren't "cards" as such, and therefore are not valid targets of things like Into the stratosphere.  

My take would be that they exist in a nebulous realm outside of play, and as such you can't screw with them except to flip them back over. 

If they existed out of play, you wouldn't "put them into play" as the setup card says. 

Stratosphere doesn't bump off a "target". It bumps a "villain card". If Sacrifice Tempest can destroy his own cards under LaCapitain, he can certainly Strata a facedown drug card in play.

I see your logic.  I think my disagreement stems because in this specific case, we're talking about Spite's Drugs.  Site's drugs started out being susceptible to "Into the stratosphere", which proved so devastating that Into the stratosphere was specifically amended to exclude indestructible cards.  Wanting to use that particular combo again because the cards are flipped seems really wrong to me.  

The context those Drugs exist in is much different though. Different Spite, different set of premeses, and different rules. What is a devastating combo in one context may not nessesarily be that powerful in another. Gonna have to be a "wait and see" kinda deal.

We will probably need an official clarification on whether Cedistic Dissonance can put a face down Drug in the trash, and if so, does that Drug stay in the trash.

Foote,

I would say it could, but it would come straight back out as the text would activate so it's a bad idea. Same with Into the Straotsphere. Without something to put it on the bottom of the deck, or reorder the cards, it becomes the next card in play and would then guarantee to enter play in addition to the likely drugs flipping each turn. With them, it becomes much more viable and may be too much.

Yeah I think your analysis seems to be spot on. 

I'm not too sure I'm sold on Ceddistic Dissonance yet. Technically, wouldn't the card already be in the trash by the time it "unflips" and has text again? I guess let me pose a similar example to what I am talking about. Advanced Matriarch is about to flip back to her front side and both Cohorts are in the trash. When she flips back to the front, and remember her front side Advanced text makes Cohorts indestructiable, would they both instantly be sent back into play? My instincts would say "certainly not". 

Would you say that when the flipped-over card is destroyed, it is un-flipped first, text added, then moves to the trash? That interpretation feels convoluted to me.

Spite's drugs were never susceptible to Into the Stratosphere, as Indestructible makes cards unable to leave play. Taking a card from play and putting it on top would remove it from play.

Spite's drugs have additional text on them. They're not just indestructible, they have specific text to put them into play if they enter the trash.

In the original edition, "Into the Stratosphere" had no restrictions on indestructible cards.

It was thus argued that it could smack a drug back up to the top of the deck, as this would not cause it to enter the trash.  Whether this argument/interpretation was correct is a moot point, as the EE made it VERY clear that indestructible cards could not be screwed with through any means.   The very fact that such a clarification was enacted suggests that I was not the only one whose play group utilized "Into the Stratosphere" against Spite when he first came out.  I'm not claiming it was the right interpretation of the rules, but it is a situation that I ran into.    

As such, I would very much like to hear any official clarifications regarding Spite's drugs in a flipped over state.  

EDIT: @ Ronway:  the popular consensus among my group was that "indestructible" meant that they could not be destroyed, not that they could not leave play.  I don't know what the official rulebook of 1st edition Rook city said.  Any rules mistakes back then were because I was young and foolish!

Ah, Ok. I see what you're saying. I'm with you now.

I'm very much well aware of this, but it is not what I was pointing out. What I am pointing towards is that by the very definition that is even written in the first printing of the Rook City rule book says it cannot be removed from play.

Indestructible: If a cards is Indestructible, it cannot be destroyed or removed from play.

Man, Dark Watch Mr. Fixer seems like he works really well with Expatriette. Speed Loading makes it very easy for her to put out extra ammo on random guns. Plus, I've often found myself just playing random guns in the hope of drawing Unload when playing Expatriette anyway.

Also, it's not just Bloody Knuckles that's better in promo Fixer's deck. Riveting Crane works a lot more easily now.

Tire Iron is another, anything without DR and only 5 HP is as good as dead. That's if he doesn't have Grease Monkey/Alternating Tiger and Harmony boosting it up.

Heck, I may even be more partial towards Jack Handle over Dual Crowbars.

Well, I will say, if anyone had a complaint about Mr Fixer or Expat being underpowered before, those sentiments should be pretty well quashed at this point.

Don't get your hopes up. I am expecting to see threads like "DW Fixer needs more fixing then other Fixer would of ever needed to be fixed" just so I won't be dissappointed when they pop up. But will be pleased when they don't.

Ok, now I'm REALLY interested to know what the deal with Revo Corp. is. They've been referenced pretty heavily lately, with no explanation what so ever.

Define "pretty heavily".

Upside down drug cards cannot have text, because if they did the effects of the drug would be active, and the entire point of putting them upside down woud be moot.  Since they are in play, they are cards, the back of the card reveals them to be villain cards, and they cannot be indestructible, they should be able to be put on top of the deck with Into the Stratosphere.

I don't think this is breaking the villain, just bringing up the idea.  This isn't Adept destroying Relics on Gloomy, those drugs are still in the deck.

To me it is more along the line of shuffling Chairman's trash into his deck.

I brought it up because it is a brand new thing, and I'm curious as to whether we'll get errata saying the upside down cards are indestructible or if it is a valid strategy.

I think this is just an assumption though. If they did not have text, why didn't it explicitly say so like promo Blade? All we know right now is that there is a different mechanic. What that means is anyone's guess.

My guess is that putting a card upside isolates its abilites from other characters, but not itself. Therefore, it can't affect anyone else, hence being upside dopwn (it's hiding). However, any thing that would affect itself (indestructable) would still be active. Of course, this is complete speculation.

EDIT: I was thinking about this a little more. The only time we know that a card has no text is when it is under something. At all other times it does. Whether it is in your deck, trash, or hand. This isn't automatically a case of "under a card," but what it is, is unclear. Unity's bot are good examples of where only one part of the text is active in a certain position, this could just be an example of that. Also, if you are comparing these cards to Spite's "hand," and he is playing a card every round, it might have some of the same rules as well. Once again, pure speculation.

Also, the glossary says that when a card is played its text takes effect.

The Drugs are put in play, so their text should be active.  The only way those drugs are not affecting gameplay (which if they are, holy crap that's the hardest villain in the game by far) is if being face-down means they either have no text, or some really complex rule that we don't know about upside down cards having text, but only certain effects get to do anything.

My guess is that they don't have text.  I doubt we have some crazy rule about what effects can be active upside down and what can't, or that the drugs are active, they are just put upside down so we have no clue what their effects are unless we've written it down somewhere.

I assume that we will either:

A.  Be able to stratosphere them.

B.  Recieve an Errata that says "These cards are indestructible."

I also believe that if they are destroyable, they would go to the trash face-up, (I can't imagine face down cards in the trash being a thing) and therefore would immediately enter play.

Agree

I am glad you  agree, now let me show you why you are wrong:

Game Play: At the start of the villain turn, if there are (H) cards under the Safe House, flip Spite's villain character card. If not, flip a drug card face up.

If the card has no text, then it is not a drug. This ability does nothing.

I'd be surprised if people were terribly unreasonable about this promo.  I've experienced many players' frustrations with Fixer a few times and I understand where they're coming from.  I've felt at times that Fixer's deck was much swingier and relied on more assistance from heroes than many other decks, but this Fixer promo seems to address a lot of complaints:

1.  Bitter Strike deals 3 damage.  It's more than the average 2 damage many hero innates do, and has a destruction rider effect (that isn't a requirement for the damage, which is fantastic).  This makes it different from Strike without necessarily being better.

2.  Fixer can actually put his own equipment into his trash without relying on other sources.  Salvage Yard is a wonderful card, but Fixer has no cards that allow for discard, equipment destruction, or putting equipment in his trash. This allows for more opportunities with Fixer strategies involving Salvage Yard not relying on the villain blowing up cards or playing with particular heroes that regularly put equipment in their trash.

3.  Riveting Crane can now be used without the need of a one-shot, Bloody Knuckles, or a tool.  A frustration voiced by many players is that the style that grants irreducible damage to a target dealt damage by Fixer couldn't be used on its own against a DR of 1.  One use of irreducible damage against a target can really help the team out if you absolutely have to destroy Crane with Bitter Strike, and a base of 3 damage will punch through a lot of villain/environment DR-heavy targets.

4.  If Fixer's hand is full of tools/styles that are not useful in a given game, Fixer isn't stuck with them.  Jack Handle against a villain with only one target and a target light Environment?  Riveting Crane against no DR?  Tire Iron…against a villain with only one target and a target light environment (man, that's a prominent bummer)?  Break them over your opponent's head with a Bitter Strike.

This covers a lot of complaints.  Frustrations over low innate damage, lengthy set-up times, and a hand full of unused cards have often been the subject of frustration for many players and I can see where they're coming from.  I think this build will do for Fixer what Elemental Wrath did for Absolute Zero.  I look forward to seeing how people react to this variant, and I'm quite excited to play it myself.  I have my share of frustrations over Fixer's deck, and I feel like this build will help with a lot of that.  It may even help me appreciate the vanilla Fixer character card more.

If and/or when players continue to voice disdain over Fixer and his playstyle, even with this new promo, I imagine an understanding could be reached between pro and anti Fixer players as long as each respective sides' praise and criticism are understood and acknowledged.

Can't you only Stratosphere cards that are in play? Spite's drug cards are face down, that doesn't mean they're actually in play. They're waiting in their own special area for the conditions to be met to be put into play.

That's a very good point. Teaches me a lesson to read the actual card and not rely on interpretations. This would then mean it enters play when flipped and can trigger those types of effects.

Although, if it leaves play when it is fllipped over again, it would conflict with "indestructible."

Ok I see. So they do have text when flipped. So if some text is active, all of it is. There's no special rule for only allowing some text active right? My question is, what's the point then of flipping the cards? With your interpretation, they are all active all the time. That can't be right. 

You gotta take intent into account at some point. 

Based on Neilzabub, I don't think it is worth discussing this side, but I will anyways. We don't know what the situation is, but we do have previous situation that says only part of the text is active in certain situation:. Unity's bots. While in your hand, the "cannot be played" text is active, while the "at-the-end-of-the-turn" is not. This could very well be the same situation.

EDIT: I do think there might be some clarifications needed. I just wanted to say that forcing this explanation based on the logic that it has no text, might not necessarily be true. There are some other explanations, for example, explaining how a brand new mechanic works, that wont force an errata. So when phantaskippy wrote:

I assume that we will either:

A.  Be able to stratosphere them.

B.  Recieve an Errata that says "These cards are indestructible."

and Foote agreed, I am saying that there are other possibilities.

Why would Fixer want equipment in his trash rather than his hand?  I can think of no strategy where it is better to have them in the trash than in your hand.  I would much rather have them in hand so I can discard them for an environment/villain effect than in the trash so I can just get them back into my hand again for no reason.

You guys are way overthinking this.  The watchword of Sentinels rules has always been simplicity.  We don't need special rules that clarify whether a Drug card is a Drug card when it's face-down.  We could use an explicit clarification of whether they are indestructible while face-down, but I feel it's easiest just to assume they are not, and that they can be Stratosphered.  I don't think that'll be as incredible with him as against the normal Spite.

Unity's bots. While in your hand, the "cannot be played" text is active, while the "at-the-end-of-the-turn" is not. This could very well be the same situation.

Good point.

For me it comes down to a card intentionally being set so that it's text is not viewable (unless you have a glass table and play from underneath it, which would be pretty sweet) yet having some of that text still affect the game.  I would not say that cards in your hand do not have text, just that the text isn't active.  When a card enters play it's text "takes effect" (Rulebook), so while a card in your hand is unactivated it still has text, so Mechanical Golemns' have all that text, but it doesn't take effect, because it isn't in play.  

How that resolves with the text saying it can't be played that in super rulesy mode would only be in effect when the card is in play is another example that this game is intended to be easy to follow and not crazy rulesy.

In practice that isn't always possible because "Being able to do really cool stuff," and "Look at this awesome thing we thought up" tend to trump "Let's keep this simple" in the Greater than Games Multiverse, which is something I am totally cool with.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't think the cards are actually in play while they're face down, and would therefore not be affected by Into the Stratosphere. I think that's a pretty simple way of looking at it.

I think this is where consistency and creativity diverge. While it is great to have keywords that always work the same in every situation, it also drastically limits the creativity of new cards.

Personally, I'm going to play it that the cards are indestructible and that they will be flipped face down when told to do so. This seems to me to be the intent of the flavor, so I'm running with it barring official word from chris saying otherwise

That would be problematic, since they can't leave play, but have a mechanic for flipping back face-down.

Well, it's in the background of ExPat's new character card, it's mentioned in Parse's backstory, that kind of thing. It just seems that it is being mentioned a lot for something that is going to turn out unimportant.

It could be that just the keywords are active, so they are still drugs and indestructible even when flipped face-down.

It also looks like the new Gloomweaver will be like Baron Blade or Apostate, having different HP or just restoring HP on his flip side.

Maybe Pike is a subsidiary of it?

I still hold with that they're not in play while face down. This is a special promo, so this could be a special instance where they're allowed to leave play by having the conditions met to flip them.

Yey! thanks

Also, how do we know that the new flip mechanic isn’t maoing the drugs a character card. Only character cards flip. Even though there is no text on the card, the card might still be in play. This would make it immhne to Into the Stratosphere, and its inherent text would bring it back of destroyed.

I wonder... WIll there be *any* way to play both Promo Gloomy and Promo Spite at the same time? You know, with Vengeance just around the corner, it would be nice to be able to do that. The Master and its Minion. Oooooh, spooky. Good kind of Halloween themed game right there.

I don't think it was stated that only character cards flipped, rather it was stated that any card which has a back that is not identical to the given card back for the rest of the deck (i.e. a two face card) is considered a character card.

Also, I have no recollection of ever officially hearing that cards without text do not have keywords or titles (note, I'm not claiming it has not been said, but that I have no memory of such being said).   What I'm getting at hear, a portion of the card, specifically the portion below the keyword space, extending near to the bottom of the card, is described as the game text and (if listed) flavor text.  Only those two sections are actually defined as being text.  Yes, while the title and keyword sections contain typed text for description, it is not listed as text.  So, it's possible that any card which says other cards have no text only eliminates game text and flavor text (though the latter has no affect on gameplay).  This would allow a face down card to be textless while still being a drug.  This would also have significant effect on the many other cards placed underneath other cards such as Savage Mana, La Capitán, The Dreamer, and, to a much lesser extent, The Shrine of the Ennead and The Safe House.

And, should my memory be incorrect, I'm sure proof will soon follow.  And even if it isn't, official rulings have changed before.

If cards without text kept their keywords, Savage Mana-ing a load of Fowl cards would be incredibly painful...

Maybe that is the only way you play them?

One thing that has been stated (long ago) is that two villians will never have identical flip mechanics.  To date, the two single card villains with the most similar flip mechanics are Baron Blade and Apostate, with the key differences being that Baron Blade has different maximum HP and Apostate can be flipped continuously.  We have yet to see what is on the back of GloomWeaver, but I am mostly at a loss as to how GloomWeaver could flip when he would be destroyed, yet have a different mechanic to what Baron Blade or Apostate does.  The only character cards thus far which have identical flip mechanics are those which are part of multi card villian setups, which flip when they would be destroyed, and their flip side is an incapacitated side.  So, maybe it's possible that the Spite GloomWeaver promos are a dual villain set, and when GloomWeaver would be destroyed, he would become incapacitated.

Even given all that logic and evidence, I still see this as unlikely though.

https://greaterthangames.com/comment/13198#comment-13198

True, but that isn't my point. My point is that you cannot say "Either my strategy needs to work, or GtG made a mechanic mistake and needs to be fixed." My point is that we absolutely don;t know what the situation is, that's it.

Now, if we were to compare it to other situations, here is what we know:

1. Only cards under other cards are textless. We have nothing that says other situations are similar.

2. Cards can be in a situation that only part of its text is active (Unity's bots in hand).

3. Only character cards flip.

4. The card needs to have some text, otherwise it wouldn't be a drug, and would never flip.

5. If it was meant to have no text, why didn't it just say so like promo Blade.

To base an argument on the assumption that it has no text seems silly to me, since it has no similarities to the situation with no text, and it does have some similarities to other situations.

If so, this would make Omni-Cannon extremely powerful. Play 3 equipment cards a turn for protection or Unity.

Or using Savage Mana with a bunch of birds underneath would be painful, and Voss would keep his DR.

Or Savage Mana would be the greatest card ever, since each time he uses the ability, he would be destroying a target underneath him, so it would go right back.

The only rules we have on things not having text is for cards under other cards.  Those cards don't have keywords, or they could be destroyed for hero abilities that require such destruction.  F6 Tempest can destroy his cards under another target because while they have no text they remain his cards.

Here's the thought behind my interpretation:

We don't have rules for upside down cards, but I would assume that they wouldn't be too complex.

What I think makes sense is if you can't see the text it isn't there.  Obviously the problem with that is Quick Draw which has you search the deck for a specific named card.

My opinion would be that searching your deck involves revealing cards, and therefore it wouldn't require considering cards you can't see to have text.

Since the back of the card designates the deck it belongs to, cards without text still belong to a deck, because the back of the card isn't text.

None of this is official, it is just how it makes sense to me.

I would assume that Stratosphere would work, as would simply destroying the cards.  (Which I believe only End of Days and exploding an instrument would be able to do, since almost every destruction card requires it to be ongoing)  That is my interpretation of how the instructions on Spite work.

It definitely isn't breaking the game, as it would be a combination of abilities to bury the drugs, and even though Lab raid doesn't get played On the Prowl shuffles the deck, those drugs won't stay buried very easily.

I don't see it as any different than suggestion burying Capitan's ship or Brain Burn moving thugs to the bottom of the deck.  

Is destroying them really a good idea? As they will easily just get right back into play, face-up.

But that doesn’t explain how they would flip to begin with. If they have no text, they aren’t drugs. Once tou establish that it has some text that is required for gameplay, is it not a far stretch to say they are indestructible.

The drugs are very different than the ship or the thugs, because those chaacters have other cards to play. Spite doesn’t have anything else to play but victims and cards affecting victims. Almost all of gis damage and effects come from the drugs. Making victims pointless because there are no drugs completely stops Spite in a way that burying the ships and drugs won’t stop the others.

Nope, which is why the only reap question is with Into the Stratosphere.

I can see how the "Drug" keyword is still active while facedown. It's clear that much is intended, else you would never be able to flip them face up.

What I do not see is Drugs keeping their indestructiable status while facedown. Intro the Strata should be able to bump a facedown villain card to the top of the deck. The reason that is a far stretch, pydro, is that if you consider any text within that text box partially active, you must then concede the entire text box is active. Not a chance thats correct. Indestructible is *not* an inherent attribute of the keyword "Drug". It is only made indestructible by way of the effects from the text box.

However, like Watson originally stated, if a facedown drug happened to go into the trash, its game text would kick in once it's in the trash and would come back in play face up. End of Days would effectivly, by the end, turn 5 face down drug cards into face up ones.

None of that would impact how Savage Mana or LaCapitain work either. I understand there might be other ways to think about it, but really, this is the only one that keeps things consistant and simple. That to me is a strong indicator of original intent. 

Look at it this way. By sheer virtue of Spites setup instructions, there is a set precedent for his Drug cards to maintain the Drug Keyword even while face down, at least for this villain encounter only. There is no precedent anywhere in-game where face down cards have text active from their textbox.

The question on end of days isn't would it be smart to play it, but if you did would it destroy the drugs.  There isn't really ever a time that End of Days is smart on Spite, but there are also times that it might enter play without you wanting it to, then you'd have to try and destroy it, or let it do nothing, depending on how this is ruled.

In the end whether or not they are indestructible won't make much difference at all in how he is played.

I am super glad to have a remade version of him, can't wait to ruin his comeback tour with an already scheduled beatdown.

If there were two villains at the top of my "I really need a promo for this guy", it would be Gloomy and Spite. I'd like to see the official difficulty of Original Gloomy be reduced to 2. He certainly is not a 3. I'm hoping skinwalker is a 4!

Oh yes, Gloomy with teeth. That would be awesome. 

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-PeTPdq_7aO4/UqC5GUFcI3I/AAAAAAAAB0Y/qGbGVpQ3NTg/w540-h500-k/13%2B-%2B1

so ive been sitting on this picture since origins, but there is DW Fixer in progress. I didnt release it before because Adam gave me a rather stern look when he caught me snapping the picture

I do recall him explaining the Scar as the one The Operative gave him in the card mentioned above, and that he would have less grey in his beard because of coming back… (edit : explaining to christopher, and i overheard…)

given the operative is his student i believe he was killed by her and in a sudden tinge of remorse, she put him in The Chairmans Lazarus vats to bring him back

HA! Increadible. 

The younger/bulkier Fixer definatly hints at the Lazarus vats, you are probably spot on there. Especially if the beard color is of particular was of specific note.

Really puts a fork in my "the dragon revived him" theory, but I am not ready to say that the Chinese man is not involved in a significant way here. There is some pretty solid speculation out there by myself and Jaymann and others that the Chinese Fu Manchu dude and the large Red Dragon are one in the same, and t he dragon tattoo sported by the new Fixer is too similar to the one Operative has to not signal a connection between all three of them. What makes this Fixer (the master of Zen mind you!) so bitter? 

Is this Chinese dude the same one that taught Nightmist about her Magic/Curse? Read her bio again. I havnt seen a whole lot of mystical chinese dudes in Adams art besides this guy. Could it be the link between Fixer and Nightmist in the Dark Watch team?

SO MANY QUESTIONS!

Here is the inherent problem I have with this. We know for a fact that if a card is textless, it has no keyword. Now to argue that it NEEDS to have a keyword to work is fine, but why stop the argument there. Maybe it also NEEDS the indestructible to work too. As I mentioned before, Spite with less Drugs is almost completely nuetered.

You can't use the argument of "what's needed" to only apply what you want, it should apply all over.You can't pick what you want, then apply current rules with what you don't. What we have is a new mechainc what that means is anyone's guess.

I wold love to play Unity with you. Since the "you cannot play this card during your play phase" is active while it is in your hand, by your own reasoning, you MUST also apply the bots effects. After all, if part of the box is active, the enitre box must be active.

If you argue that Unity is different because you need that text there, then you can say the EXACT same thing here. Everyone keeps bringing up current rules that we have for a new situation, but they ignore everything that doesn't fit.

However, there are other good reason that your explanation doesn't immediately make sense.

Why does it even say to flip a "Drug." It could have just as easily said "flip a facedown card." If you said "flip a facedown card" then it would CLEARLY indicate that the cards have no text. Why use a wording that clearly shows it does have text?

Now, you could say it is an issue of real estate, but you run into another problem. Why does it say to put the cards in the play "area." That is just an extra word that isn't needed.

There are only 2 possible explanations:

1. They are not in play when face down (How this works with Indestructible, we don't know).

2. SOME (or all) words are active. You can of course pick and choose what you feel should be in there, but there is no basis for your argument, while I have given several for mine.

As I have said before, there is NOTHING consistent here. People are saying what they thing, and not applying anything consistent here. In fact, we do have a situation where a promo villain makes texts textless, and it says it outright on the card. If anything, we have a precedent that these cards aren't textless.

Great argument. One question though. Please show me ANYWHERE in the game that facedown cards have NO TEXT. In fact, show me anything similar here. You never have to prove why something isn't, you always havce to prove why something is. We have nothing that says they lose there text (whether partial or completel). The burden of proof is the one saying it's different, not the one saying it is the same.

In fact, if your entire arguemnt is that "Drug" has to be active for it to work, the SIMPLEST explanation is that the entire card is active, but the damage isn't for it to work.

I (mostly) stand behind what I said earlier.  I'm also not much up for debating issues (anymore anyway), thus I make my point and bow out.  But, one thing to add, while making my point, I was assuming that any new cases being brought up with this card (what does face down card mean?) was going to be explained upon release of the card (either in passing discussion when the text is fully officially released in the case this is a one-shot type mechanic, or introduced in the Vengence rulebook if such a mechanic is to become more mainstream), and to also bring up a fitting point that goes counter to the consensus, but, to my knowledge, not exactly counter to what was officially stated (when reading the link, people further down immediately assumed textless also meant no keywords, and rightfully so, as I would have assumed myself after reading that, though it was not specifically stated exactly as such).

all i have to say about mr chinese is … [redacted]

This is precisely my point. We don't know how it works, and to say that either Into the Strasphere works or GtG made a mistake and they need an errata is very premature.

Also, everyone keeps saying intent, how do you know what the intent is? Maybe the intent is for Into the Stratosphere not to work.

If the card was meant to work like everyone is saying, why have this strange setup. Why not just put the drugs under Spite at the start of the game (and be textless), and keep moving them from underneath out into the open and back. This would be simplier, and consistent with what we have, if the suggested play style is correct.

However, we have this strange setup, to me at least, the reason for the setup is simple. The intent is for the cards to always be in play (or have the possibility of being in play), but are sometimes active and sometimes not.

The setup instructions are what clearly set the precedant (and maybe for this fight only) that the Drug keyword is active when they are face down. Yes, my stance is that is indeed that is nessesary. 

I understand your Unity counter example above. But let me phrase it another way. Yes, the text of "you cannot play this card during your play phase" matters while its in your hand. I can't help but see this an more an exception to the rule than a verification of one however. It is clearly a restriction on when the card can enter play. Otherwise, cards must be in play for their effects to actually effect things. Consider exploding a wagon in 1883. Card can't carry out its destruction effect from the trash, so it must stay in play for the text to be active. Official ruling that. Are you trying to say that having Swift Bot in your hand affords you its effects of extra draws and plays? You are twisting my words. Just because a Keyword is specifically allowed to be active (by pure virtue of the setup instructions) does not mean we throw everything else of common sense out the door.

Uhhh, Savage Mana. Did you really need me to spell this one out? Its been officially ruled that cards under it have no game text and in fact lose keywords as well. Spiff's excellent document clearly makes note of the Matriarch/Fowls case (ie, Matriarch does not deal revenge damage when fowl cards are re-destroyed under Savage Mana). Same goes for Bomber Blade. Same goes for Omni Canon. Same for LaCaptain.  

There are now two special cases where keywords still remain on flipped cards. And they are both explicitly stated. 1) The Dreamers flip side. They need to still count as projections while under her for the sole purpose of counting toward the win condition. It is clearly the intent and marked in the instructions as such. 2) EmoSpite. Clearly marked in his setup instructions that the flipped cards need to keep their keyword to function and is clearly the intent.

Burden of proof is in saying why these cases are different from the well established norm? Done. There you go.

Can you as easily explain why just the "indestructible" text should remain active when flipped while no other text is?

My take on promo Spite is that the drugs work this way:

1. by taking them out of the deck and putting them "into play", they are designated as Drugs, with all the indestructibility inherent therein.

2. You can't screw with them, because even when flipped, they are STILL specifically referred to as drugs (with all the indestructibility therein).

3. The only thing you can do with them is flip them, as explained by the character card (which always takes precedence over the usual rules).

4. Any or all of this could be wrong.

As for DW Fixer, I'm wondering if he bought the operatives life/freedom in exchange for his own.  Pike gets to call on him for "favors" that further his cause.  Nothing so blatant as "take out this target" or "kill this guy", but if Pike points out people who are doing bad things,and it just so happens to help Pike stay on top that they get put in jail...  Or say, theres a mad, resurrected serial killer on the loose- thats hardly good business.  

Pike gets to stay in control, and rebuild his empire.  Mr Fixer knows full well that he's being used, but made a deal.   

It would certainly explain the "Bitter" part of "Bitter Strike"!

BAN HIM! 

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

MUTINY MUTINY MUTINY

This issue is that this is such a large quantum leap in logic that it needs a rational behind it. For a thought excercise, if the keyword "Drug" was inherently indestructible, wouldn't stating so in the text box be redundant? For as valuable as text space is, and for how crammed the Drug cards actually are, if it were as you say, there would have been no need at all for it to be in the text box.

SO, here's the deal. When Spite's character card refers to flipping over the Drug cards, it's talking about those face down cards which we know to be face down. That said, when they're face down, they don't do anything. Including have keywords or game text. So! You could totally Into the Stratosphere one, but it would be the next card played, so that's not really optimal. You could attempt to End of Days them or Cedistic Dissonant them, but cards go into the Trash face up, so we'd then see the text that indicates that if these cards would ever be put in the trash for any reason, put them into play instead, so that's even worse! They'd come back into play face up! Not helpful.

Anyway, I hope this helps understand how Spite: Agent of Gloom works.

This actually does not help me understand.  Maybe it's the lack of sleep I've had this week, but I am having difficulty unambiguously parsing that statement.

Do you mean they do nothing, so much nothing that they have no keywords and no game text?

Or do you mean they do nothing, even though they do have keywords and game text?

Thanks for the clarification (does it ever surprise you what things we end up having long discussions about?).

The fact that they are indeed able to be Strata'd should have cleared just about every confusion discussed here (whether directly or indirectly). 

Next topic!

What do you guys think we will see out of his flip side? It's not hard to see that EmoSpite will be flipping eventually. What will become of his drugs? Will he become a drug wrecked gloomy monstrosity?

@Jaymann, he means that they do nothing because they have no text/keywords.

Actually, please spell it out for me. I didn’t know that cards under Savage Mana were face down. We did not know how face down cards worked until Christopher said so.

@Christopher
So the intent is to put it back, and then it could get buried with Infrared or Visionary?

First, Ill appologize for that comming off as combative. I really like these discussions as you know, so that wasn't my intent

Secondly, after you mentioned this, I might have just been putting cards under savage mana facedown since I originally bought it just out of a natural inclination to do so. Same with Omni-Cannon. Yeah, I know it does not explicitly tell you to do that, in which case your are technically correct. But all things considered at this point, I think it's appropriate to put them under savage mana face down, keeping it in line with all other similar effects of putting some cards under others. If it looses its text/keywords but remains in play, chances are pretty solid the card is supposed to be flipped over

But you don't have any "that kind of thing"…it's two mentions (one of them fairly speculative), which doesn't strike me as "heavy".

I put them facedown too!

Akash'bhuta and Matriarch's flip mechanics are pretty similar, they just differ in which deck is being reshuffled.  And all of The Dreamer, Citizen Dawn, and Grand Warlord Voss flip when their doods have all been pwned, though they have very different conditions for flipping back (never, only once, and every time doods-havingness is reestablished).  I don't think it's too unreasonable for Gloomskinner to flip much the same way Baron Blade does.

I for one think it'd be absolutely hilarious if Gloomskinner's back is exactly the same as normal Gloomweaver's, given how you very rarely actually flip normal Gloomy.

Don't make me turn this car around. I will. I swear to sweat baby raptorbots I will.

Precognition is go!

I want the flip side of Skinwalker Gloomweaver to be Skincovered Gloomweaver, and to reveal that with skin it looks like... Paul.

We've got Chris and Adam on cards, why can this not be Paul's turn to shine?

Legacy is named after him.

Well aware, we just haven't got his picture on a card (Unless Legacy is a romanticised Paul).

What are you talking about? Haven't you met Paul? The guy is built like a brick s***house. 

Wait, Paul's real name is Legacy?  or Parson's?  Or maybe Paul Revere was also named after Paul.

I just want to say

What kind of miracle microscope do you people have that let you /read/ anything off that pic of the setup cards? Dear GOD that was small and blurry!

It's a kind of magic.

I thought there could only be one?

Unless The Wraith/Nightmist/The Visionary is sitting somewhere on your left.

I'm going to try a team of Tempest, Adept , Scholar, Dark Vis.  Keep recycling Stratosphere to try to get all five Drugs in the deck at one time.

Won't be easy, but it must be done.

Drugs will be really hard to bury for long though, Spite does tend to shuffle his deck.

Why must they be on the left? So playing with someone from another continent would mean we are unable to use The Wraith, NightMist, or The Visionary to bury drugs that were knocked Into the Statosphere?

You are correct. You have brilliantly deduced from my reference to the play order when playing face to face that, in my view, playing online is both impossible and against the rules.

ZOOM AND ENHANCE

I've just always found it rather odd that he is one of the only characters that has a card that interacts with his trash but has no discard/destruction effects.  Absolute Zero, Wraith, Bunker, Tempest, Ra, Visionary, Expatriette, Argent Adept, Unity, Chrono Ranger, and Omnitron-X all have discard/destruction effects for cards that they can recover from their trash.  What I'm saying is that Fixer takes a proactive stance rather than a reactive one with this promo.  He doesn't wait for a villain/environment discard effect with this character card.  He utilizes Salvage Yard from his own damage dealing design.  3 damage is incredible before any modifications are put into effect, and maintaining that with a hand full of tools that can be recovered with Salvage Yard only serves to increase Salvage Yard's use (which is great, because it's already an awesome card).

I've just noticed a frustration many players have experienced is Fixer having ten to twelve cards in hand with little to no use for all but two or three.  Now his hand isn't just sitting there as discard fodder or triple precaution against a board wipe.  It's fuel for a stronger Strike rather than Toolbox-ing for three or four turns until you have the tool/style/Harmony combo needed for the situation (I understand that is not the ONLY situation classic Fixer gets into, but it is one that I've seen a number of times in my games around the table and as a source of great frustration on the forum).

Grease Gun anyone?

No, he means like "destroy one of your cards; if you do, do X effect." or "Discard any number of cards. For every card you discard, do Y." That kind of thing.

Where's Chrono-Ranger or Visionary's cards that do that?

Infact, how do Wraith and Ra recover cards from the trash?

Chrono-Ranger has the bounties and the temporal grenades, and Visionary having that ability isn't in the interest of self-synchronicity so much as it is helping others recover from board wipes, since she's almost pure support.

She is provided in the list above, is she not? Are you even reading the post?

... yes. Reckless had the list of all the heroes with card destruction and recovery effects, and you questioned whether Visionary and Chrono actually HAD any. I said that Chrono does, and Visionary doesn't, but it still makes sense for her to have them because of her nature as a buildup support/interference character.

The fact that Fixer has card recovery but no card destruction is weird was brought up; as a counter, you brought up Grease Gun, which doesn't destroy anything or have a conditional destruction, meaning it was irrelevant, so I clarified what was meant by the aforementioned types of effects, which led to question number one.

So yes, I am following the conversation JUST FINE. The question is, are YOU paying attention to what is being SAID, or just reacting to a couple words at a time?

Grease Gun is a piece of equipment, and it destroys itself, so it does combo with Salvage Yard.

Visonary has mental divergence. She can destroy ongoings and retrieve them from the trash.

So grease gun destroys itself, and can be pulled back out with Salvage yard.

Other than that Fixer has no cards he really pulls out of the trash, since his tools go back to his hand and his ongoings go to the trash.

Visionary doesn't have "Scarifice cards to do damage" cards, but Wrest the Mind and Twist the Ether often get played on villain targets that then die, and while Decoy Projection can't be brought back but Cocoon can.

Visionary is a support, and mostly Mental Divergence is destroying villain cards or helping another hero get important ongoings back.

But Fixer is also a support, just a different kind.  He debuffs, damages hard to damage targets, recovers equipment from trash, while having versatile offense that allows him to solve problems that way when called for.

Visionsary also has a lot of damage options too, just not with powers.

Played with DW Fixer and Ex-Pat. Both are a lot of fun. Assuming you're not just being a dick and destroying other people's ongoing and equipment cards, DW Fixer sacrifices long term sustainability for a large immediate gain. I would say that regular Fixer is still probably the better option for very long and drawn out games, but DW Fixer is a bit better for fast paced games where things need to be done immediately and there's not a lot of time for setup. DW Ex-Pat is kind of the other way around, you sacrifice immediacy for long term gain.

A list of heroes with cards that destroy or discard their own cards and are able to recover them.

and you questioned whether Visionary and Chrono actually HAD any.

I said that Chrono does, and Visionary doesn't, but it still makes sense for her to have them because of her nature as a buildup support/interference character. 

The fact that Fixer has card recovery but no card destruction is weird was brought up

 as a counter, you brought up Grease Gun, which doesn't destroy anything or have a conditional destruction, meaning it was irrelevant,

so I clarified what was meant by the aforementioned types of effects

which led to question number one. 

So yes, I am following the conversation JUST FINE.

The question is, are YOU paying attention to what is being SAID, or just reacting to a couple words at a time?

So let's go down the list and see how each hero can destroy/discard their cards and recover them, shall we?

Starting with Absolute Zero, the only card of his he can destroy and recover from the trash is Cryo Chamber. To recover it, he would play Modular Realignment.

Bunker, putting cards under Omni-Cannon will allow him to destroy tons of his cards, if any are Equipment, he can recover with Decommisioned Hardware. Decommisioned Hardware can also recover equipment cards discarded from Gatling Gun's effect. Lastly, he can get Auxiliary Power Source, which has two ways of destroying it, with Decommisioned Hardware.

Tempest, Vicious Cyclone can discard plenty of cards, any of which can be recovered with Reclaim from the Deep. He can also use a power to destroy Localized Hurricane, which can also be recovered from Reclaim from the Deep.

Visionary, Telekinitic Cocoon can be destroyed at the start of her turn if she desires. Twist the Ether and Wrest the Mind are destroyed with the target they are attached to are destroyed. Then there is Mental Divergence, which not only can destroy any of her ongoings, but can recover them as well.

Expatriette, her Ammo cards are destroyed whenever they are placed on a gun and that power is used. They are recovered by Reload and Speed Loading.

Argent Adept, can destroy his Instruments via the Perform of Cedistic Dissonance, being recovered by Vernal Sonata and Instrumental Conjuration. The Accompany also allows Argent to discard 2 cards, which can be recovered by Vernal Sonata. Finally, Inventive Preperation's Perform allows him to discard the top of his deck, which can be recovered via Vernal Sonata.

Unity, able to discard cards with Flash Forge or Modular Workbench, if cards discarded are Mechanical Golems, she can recover them by using Robot Reclaimation.

Chrono-Ranger, Jim's Hat can be used to destroy Bounties, then recovered by Ranger's Mark or Bounty Board. Using the power of Temporal Grenade will destroy it, recovered by Displaced Armory. Just Doing My Job will allow Chrono to discard a card, if it is a Bounty or Equipment, they can be recovered by one of the previously mentioned cards, depending on the type.

Which then leaves us with Mr. Fixer, who can play Grease Gun and it will be destroyed at the start of his turn. It can be recovered using Salvage Yard.

So yes I have been paying attention. The only thing I am not understanding is why it would be frustating to not have a way to get Fixer's equipment cards into the trash on his own. What's wrong with being the person that can discard cards to save other heroes that are lacking them from discarding? Being able to take the hero card destruction when Villain/Environment deck decides to do so, because you have a card that will be just fine in its place? Praising the idea of being able to destroy his own cards just baffles me.

Ronway. McBehreh

You're both pretty. You can both wear the new dress, but you'll just have to flip to see who goes first.

The only thing I am not understanding is why it would be frustating to not have a way to get Fixer's equipment cards into the trash on his own.

Frustration is subjective.

Yes, which is why I will not understand it. So I am curious.

I think the frustration comes from Fixer not being able to help himself with the card, outside of overdrive the only benefit he gains from Salvage yard is the ability to skip his own turn to help others with Grease gun, or recover destroyed cards, which is external to himself.

Basically Fixer is a support character that looks like he isn't.  He has pretty great card draw with toolbox, and recovery with salvage yard, and the other heroes who match that draw or recovery power all have ways to use those cards, Fixer doesn't even drop cards in hand by replacing tools.  Heroes that have internal ways to build their hands up, Omni, Tachyon, Bunker, Haka, Wraith, Tempest, Fanatic, Unity, Nightmist, Chrono Ranger, Scholar all have ways to either play more cards in a aturn or discard/destroy their cards themselves.

Fixer does not.  It can be frustrating to have a huge hand with no purpose to it.  DW Fixer solves that problem for those people, as you are destroying cards, using toolbox to hunt for more cards to destroy, and Salvage yard to bring them back for another round of destruction.

I have definitely had games when I got Salvage Yard early and it wasn't useful, and that is indeed frustrating, knowing that you've got a potential power card but no way to actualize it.  When your teammates among them will get back perhaps three cards from the Yard, you really don't want to play it yourself if you get nothing out of it (at least if you're fairly selfish like me).

Yes.  This is essentially what I was trying to convey.  I misspoke about a few of the characters' discard/destruction and recovery abilities, but DW Fixer is very much more proactive than reactive.  It isn't so much that having his cards in the trash is a tactical advantage as it is a more proactive way to utilize his hand than swapping out Tools with more backups than you might know what to do with.

And yes, Grease Gun is the card that classic Fixer can use Salvage Yard to recover equipment without reacting to villain/environment(/occasionally hero) destruction.

I sat down to add the info about upside down cards not having keywords or text to the FAQ, but got hung up on this:

Game Play: At the start of the villain turn, if there are (H) cards under the Safe House, flip Spite's villain character card. If not, flip a drug card face up.

If they have no game text when upside down, then they're not "drug" cards, so this won't work.  Of course, we all know what's meant, but I don't want to add anything to the FAQ which is just a general understanding.  So I'm still holding out for an official explanation.  My assumption is that it was a mistake to have said "flip a drug card face up" and it should actually say something else like "flip a face down card face up" (which opens up the possibility of other cards in the future being face down which aren't drug cards...).  In any case, I'm keeping this out of the FAQ unless we get something official.

Did you see Christopher's post on page four of this topic, comment number 163? Not sure how helpful that is.

Edit: I would of linked it, but for someone reason I am not able to paste in the comment box.

I had this exact same question, and suggestion.

Here is the post.

By the way, if you have trouble pasting in the comment box, I think there's a workaround.  Try using Ctrl+V, that's the method most likely to work.  If that fails, try a right-click and copy, and it'll make you go through an extra box since it doesn't like to go directly from the clipboard; some security thing.  Maybe that's been FUBARed, though.

I'm able to paste just fine.

Yeah, apparently cards that refer to keywords on cards that are upside down (in play or in the deck) have an implied "wink wink, nudge nudge Know what I mean?"

Ah, the glory that is Sentinels and its refusal to comply to a standardized ruling system.

Guys, about the face down drug cards...

At the start of the game remember, you search through the deck, remove all 5 drug cards, and play them facedown. It is addressing the players directly, tellign them that these 5 facedown cards are drugs and an exception to standard play. They are being labled as drug cards outside of the context of their keyword now. Now that their keyword is not the only thing labeling those facedown cards as drug cards, it is no longer an issue to satisfy the Gameplay text. 

So, is your face down card a drug card eh?  Eh?  Know what I mean?  Does it flip, Eh?  Say no more!

Foote, when you're asked to find the Drug cards, they're still Drug cards because they still have their card text.  As soon as they get played face down, they lose the card text, so they're nothing.  The stuff about the cards addressing the players directly is kind of made up by you, so I can't put it in the FAQ.

Personally, I'm not comfortable with my cards addressing me directly.  How am I supposed to tell the difference between the cards talking to me and rest of the voices I hear in my head normally?  Confusing.

Just by the fact that it says to flip a drug face up is addressing that 1) There are drug cards in play and 2) they must be face down (or how could they flip up), its pretty clear that someway or another, those facedown cards with no text are still considered drugs. Its an explicit exception to the normal rule. How would you make it less confusing?

The original question was whether the face down drug cards could be destroyed by end of days or set back on top of the deck with into the stratosphere.

The answer is yes, they can.  If destroyed their text that puts them into play when they would go to the trash sends them to play.

As for rules, I think it is best to just let this sit as an exception.  I don't think there are any questions at all about how to play it in game, and without a gameplay question there is no current need for extrapolation.

We have an exception for Fowl cards in Matriarch's deck.  We know how to play the deck, and whether new wording or rulings make it work that way naturally we know how to play the deck, and so the rest really doesn't matter.

You could still Into the Stratosphere and then Precog or turmoil them.

I'm with Foote on this one.  Spiff has the right attitude in that this answer ought not to be carved into the eternal stone of his FAQ, but it falls perfectly within the purview of SOTM's common-sensical approach, so it's quite good enough for me.

Second

I also agree that common sense will get people through this just fine.  I was just fishing for some official clarity on the issue because I'd like to include it in the FAQ if I could.

Could some expand upon this a bit?

Yes.

Fowl cards contain text that when a fowl card enters play you play the top card of the villain deck.

Hairtrigger reflexes deals any villain target 1 damage upon entering play.  That means if Hairtrigger is in play you can destroy the fowl card before the card's text is activated (under the old ruling of card order to resolve simultaneous effects it should always stop fowl from playing more, under the new one it would be players choice whther to let more cards into play or not.)

We had a response from Christopher that yes, that is how the rulings would play it, but that that isn't the way it should work.  Hence the exception I mentioned, which correlates to the upside down cards not having keywords but still being drugs for the new Spite card.

The Fowl issue has been fixed, the new cards have moved the text to the Matriarchs card, so whether they are destroyed or not the response of playing the top card of the villain deck goes through.

Other changes that have been made include fixing Darken the Sky's art, and sadly doing away with Checmical Explosions.  Alas, the Rook City environment deck's language was not fixed; Tony Taurus still says "immune to damage from heroes" and "the villain character card".

Can you elaborate on this a bit?

The art of Darken the Sky is all pixellated.

"Checmical" should read "Chemical".

"Damage from heroes" doesn't excuse other hero targets like Unity's bots.

"The villain character card" implies only one is present, when that's not always the case (Chairman/Operative, Ennead).

With Chairman and Operative, there is still only one Villain Character card, which is Chairman.

Not technically - The Operative is a Villain Character card. She just doesnt have her own setup. And each of the Enneads is a Villain Character card.

She is a villain card and a character card, but she lacks the villain keyword, which would make her a Villain Character Card.

Edit: Super awesome link that has Christopher even say Operative is not a Villain Character Card. https://greaterthangames.com/comment/5106#comment-5106

/agree.  She's a villain card and a character card, but not a villain character card (go figure).