Sentinels Sidekick 2 Request

Hi guys as a fan of the series I felt like I wanted to bring up an issue I had with one of the tokens brought out in the latest update of the Sidekick app. I belive it is used for dark powers or some thing but well its the Pentagram used by Satanism. I had no problem with the previous Magic symbol which is the regular star and circle but still have my limits. I found it distasteful as I really love this game and wish to play with my children. If posible could you please look it over. Thanks and hope to hear from you guys.

Isn't that art already in the game?

I havent seen it unless they are planing it for Vengeance which I hope not.

Technically, the Satanic pentagram is two points up. All the pentagrams in NightMist's deck are one point up. Unfortunately, the icon for Infernal damage in Sentinels Sidekick is a pentagram with two points up.

My bet is it was an accident.

Your totally right Rabit, that was what I was refering to. So I'm hoping its just a quick fix. ^_^

I thought something about Apostate's deck used the upside down pentagram. Certainly doesn't bother me, either way.

Looked through Apostate's deck and didn't see any.

Personally, I don't care - it's just a symbol. The meaning is evoked in the useage, and in this case it's a symbol on a piece of software that is being used to indicate Infernal damage. However, there's no reason it has to be that specific symbol, so I doubt they'll care.

We'll see what they say.

Unoffended pagan piping up. The inverted pentacle isn't specifically related to satanism, satan worship, or any other infernal practices in general. It is used by many, however. It also is used by many people who don't even believe in satan or any sort of Judeo-Christian evil.

However, in the end, I'm all for making the largest number of people happy.

Yeah when making this post I already knew not everyone would care, also I know the pentagram is used by many such as the Star of David or Wiccan and that is the reason I was ok with Night Mist as it's used as a symbol for magic. But the upside down Pentagram would be harder to look at. I am proud to say I'm religious but not a fanatic and try to see the bad in everything but this is just blatant for what it is. In the end I don't see it printed on the cards and seemed to be an easy fix so I hope it's not asking for to much.

The Star of David has six points and a pentagram has five. Or am I missing something?

For what it's worth, the sign on Nightmist's deck is actually the Elder Sign:  a symbol of warding against the Great Old Ones from the Cthulhu mythos.  It speaks to her origins, as Richard Launius designed Arkham Horror, a game fueled by sealing gates using the Elder Sign.

Oh yeah the Star of David does have six. Nice catch arenson

What exactly do you and the OP think would make a better symbol for infernal damage?  O_o  It is by definition unholy and wrong, that's the whole point of it.  It is largely characteristic of one Villain who claims to be a literal demon from Hell, and one Hero whose entire shtick is trafficking in dark powers which are immensely dangerous to you.  If you're too squeamish to deal with those matches, just don't play Nightmist and don't play against Apostate, and you'll virtually never see Infernal damage.  Problem solved.

If you read the thread, OP is pointing out an inconsistency between the symbols used in the cards and the one used in Sidekick.  I would think you could get on board with pointing out inconsistencies, Envisioner.  Sidekick's is something he finds offensive, the cards have nothing to do with it.

That doesn't negate my point.  If you have to symbolize Infernal damage, what else could possibly represent it as well as an inverted pentacle?

(And for the record my mom is a witch, so I know exactly what the pentagram in either of its facings actually symbolizes, which has nothing to do with what the Christian establishment has historically claimed.)

Well there are many artistic represitations that could be worked around to symbolize something. You could create your own symbol also, who said that games are bound by pegan religions look at many games like WoW where they create there own symbols to reprecent relics or ritual seals. I am not here to ster up any arguments. I just found it offensive and love this game so much that I thought I could post my feelings about the subject. Seeing as it was not something they would have to drasticaly change such as the cards them selves but just a simple flip of an image in an app it would not be a big deal. Much love Dryden ^_^.

Something already used in the game, such as the Elder Sign. There's no benefit to using an inverted pentagram over any other sign that implies infernal damage, in this situation, whereas there is benefit to using a sign already used in the game for similar effects.

And for the record, I personally have no issues with the inverted pentagram, its use (in any context), or anything like that. (I spent much of my childhood being persecuted by Christians, so I'm dealing with my own baggage here.)

But Dryden has made a respectful and honest request without being antagonizing or arrogant in his approach, and I greatly appreciate that. Dryden's request is valid and we can at least ask the folks in charge to consider it.

On that topic, in an message thread on this, MigrantP (one of the Sentinels Sidekick folks) has said they'll look at seeing what they can do. We'll either hear back from them or we'll see something change.

Thanks for raising the question, Dryden. And thank you to the community for not torching this thread.

We'll go over the icons today and get something to the fine folks at Handelabra today!

Thanks, everyone!

We've received new icons from >G and are working on getting an update together with this change and some other fixes. If all goes well, it should be available next week.

Thanks Christopher, you guys have always been there for the fans and I really apreciate the change! You don't know how much respect I have for you guys and want to thank everyone for being such a great help. Much love Dryden ^_^.

Sigh, once again the purity of art is quashed in order to pander to the wishes of a few (in this case ONE) persons who place their own feelings as being more important than others' freedom of expression.  I'm not surprised, I'm just disappointed.

Hey, Envisioner, that's not called for. This isn't a matter of purity of art. I think his request was reasonable. No need to have sour grapes about it. Let's all get along, ok? 

Reel it in a bit, man. We can all be awesome to each other. That's what this community is here for.

The icon is still a pentagram, it's just rotated so there's one point at the top. I don't think this has anything to do with "purity of art." Sidekick 2.1 was the first time these icons have been used publicly, so it was the first chance to get this kind of useful feedback.

1. The pentagram with one point up is the Elder Sign, a symbol associated with Nightmist and dark stuff and thus is actually probably a better fit for Infernal damage than the inverted pentagram.

2. No offense to Greater Than Games or the team at Handelabra, but I would hesitate to refer to the choice of which way to orient a pentagram to represent a certain type of damage in an app used to track the current state of a card game 'art'.

3. At no point did Dryden make any kind of demands about this, nor did he try to place himself above other people's freedom of expression. He made a polite request, ignored the troll whose solution was 'don't look at it lol', and was heard by Christopher and MigrantP, who decided to make a single very minor change in order to keep at least one (and quite possibly more) fans happy. Where exactly is the quashing in all this?

Personally, I think being offended by a particular symbol a little silly, but I find being offended by customer service patently absurd.

1) The pentagram with one point up is the Elder Sign, a symbol associated with Nightmist and dark stuff and thus is actually probably a better fit for Infernal damage than the inverted pentagram.

You get "being spot on correct" points (which are entirely useless, but oh well) :)

Yeah, I've noticed a trend with Envisioner either being a VERY GOOD TROLL or a very rude person. Either way, just... ignore him.

No one takes my place as resident forum troll. NO ONE!

*shakes an angry fist at the sky vigorously* 

Ok, now, just because I called someone out, doesn't mean we all should be rude to him. 

As I said before, let's all be awesome to each other. All of us. Awesome. To everyone else.

We're submitting version 2.1.1 with this fix and a couple other things. Here's a preview of the new icon attached!

keyboard.jpg768×1024 207 KB

Is having an obviously Christian cross as the symbol for radiant damage a potential problem too?  Might want to get ahead of the next complaint by turning that into a radiating sword or something.

Took me a while to figure out what the eyeball icon must be.  Psychic, right?  That's the only one I couldn't immediately identify, and I'm pretty familiar with the game's damage types.  Maybe a picture of head would read more as psychic?

An elder sign is not a pentagram.  It's a weirdly asymmetrical 5-pointed star with no surrounding circle, and a small flame-eye symbol in the middle.

3. At no point did Dryden make any kind of demands about this, nor did he try to place himself above other people's freedom of expression. He made a polite request, ignored the troll whose solution was 'don't look at it lol'

So because he was "polite", I'm somehow a troll?  Apparently my feelings don't matter just because I got angrier than he did.  Personally I would have thought that meant I felt more strongly about the situation and thus deserve at least as much consideration.

and was heard by Christopher and MigrantP, who decided to make a single very minor change in order to keep at least one (and quite possibly more) fans happy. Where exactly is the quashing in all this? Personally, I think being offended by a particular symbol a little silly, but I find being offended by customer service patently absurd.

Customer service is great, as long as it applies to all customers equally.  But the "quashing" would be the fact that the opinions of people who think pentagrams are offensive are being valued, and the opinions of people who think crosses are offensive are not, just because there are more of the former.  (Admittedly, there are a lot more crosses in card art.  And at no point did I suggest they should be removed, but I do in fact consider them offensive; I'm just not of the opinion that any person has a right to censor reality for the sake of their prejudices.)

Christopher is making Dryden more happy, but me less so, and in either case, he isn't preserving the purity of the original work, but rather changing it to pander to anyone who raises an issue.  I don't consider that to be admirable behavior.  When Harlan Ellison's writing offends someone, he takes pride in it, because that's the point of writing, to challenge people's beliefs and force them to rethink their worldview.  Yes Sentinels is a fun game, but it's also more than that, and its gravity and dignity should be respected, even over the wishes of its own creators (the trope name for this is "Death of the Author"…because the author will eventually die, his own interpretation of his works is no more important than any other interpretation, for the work must be able to stand on its own).

its gravity and dignity should be respected, even over the wishes of its own creators

That makes no sense.  It's not your game.  I can't figure out why you care what the little icon looks like, except to make self-righteous posts.  That's what's coming off as trolley.

And the creator of the game just told you to back off, Envisioner...Dude, take the hint.

It's a bit presumptuous to say the author will eventually die. That's really not part of my master plan here.

Just sayin'.

Christopher said we should all "get along", but that's not possible.  What makes one person happy makes another person unhappy, and I object to the idea that some people's rights are more important than others.  Dryden can get the pentagram removed from the game so he's not offended, but if I said I wanted the cross removed because I was offended, nobody would pay any attention to me, because I didn't invoke the Holy Sanctity of Childhood Innocence to turn my argument into an irresistable sledgehammer.  Dryden's children would have been just fine if they'd seen a pentagram, they would not have been somehow corrupted.  The pentagram's "offensiveness" is entirely in Dryden's mind, and he did not have a right to say that it should be removed for the sake of his wishes.

I haven't even seen the icon, and that's not the point.  I don't care what the icon looks like, I care that it's not being changed to cater to the wishes of one person, when my own wish is diametrically opposed to his, and there's no reason why his opinion is more important than mine.

It's easy to talk about "purity of art" when you're not the one who makes their living from people buying your product. It makes sense to listen to your customers and make changes as necessary to something that really doesn't affect how your product works - why antagonise what could potentially be a a large section of your customer base?

For a few reasons. One, he was polite about it, which you definitely aren't being. Two, he pointed out that it could be viewed as morally offensive, so he had a legitimate reason to want it changed. You only seem to want it to stay the same because someone else wants it changed, and that is not a legitimate reason; that's just rude.

This is where you fall flat.  The original work (card art) contained the pentagram as it has now been fixed in Sidekick.  This is becoming less about the pentagram and more about your inability to say you didn't know what you were talking about when you responded to this thread initially.

And >G has every right to change its own product all it wants, even if they wanted to put crosses on every card.  Art isn't as static as you would have us think.  You've just couched yourself in one interpretive view of art that holds the original to some kind of higher standard. 

Apologies, folks, but I think we're done here. Because this conversation is taking a spiral death dive, we're closing it. (Has to happen to every forum eventually, I suppose. )

And that is why we're having to close this thread.

The reality is that we can get along. That doesn't mean we all have to agree - as this forum has shown for the past couple of years, with a great deal of healthy and interesting disagreement. You're failing to see the difference in this, Envisioner.

I could go on for a while about various topics that might help in this situation, but I don't think any of them actually will. There is too much emotion on this, it's too charged - so it's done.