Hero Tier List?

Out of curiosity, I was wondering if anyone would be willing to share their personal take on their tier lists for the heroes? Or, more accurately, list all of the heroes in order from favorite to least favorite, but bunching them into groups of approximately equal favorite-ness, rather than ranking them one by one. I find it hard to decide between individual heroes, but I can definitely say that I'll take one of these 3, over these 5 or so. Plus it has more clearly-defined divisions between the heroes you consider fun and the ones you don't.

I would specify that I mean the ones you like playing as, not necessarily which ones are better. If that were the case, Visionary, Legacy, Wraith, and Argent Adept would top all of the lists, and that's no fun. I want opinions, not facts. So, with that said, here is my list:

Top tier: "I WANT THAT ONE!"

Argent Adept

NightMist

The Sentinels

Setback

I don't know, maybe I'm just a sucker for the complicated ones? Argent and Nightmist are the most complex and difficult heroes to play, but once you can get them going they REALLY start to get powerful. Having them on the team can really turn the tide of the battle in your favor, but only if used right; you can't just blast everything with fire and call it a day (RA). You have to think about it.

Second tier: still great choices

Chrono-Ranger

Absolute Zero

Omnitron-X

The Scholar

The Naturalist

Unity

These are the ones I go to when I want a little different of an experience. They're still a bit think-y, but nowhere near the extent of Argent or NightMist.

Third Tier: All right, I guess

Tachyon

Parse

Mr. Fixer

Haka

Fanatic

Wraith

These are a bit less fun for me, but I'll still choose them now and then out of boredom, or to fit a role on the team.

Final Tier: Only if I have to

Legacy

Bunker

Ra

Visionary

Expatriette

Knyfe

These guys... I don't really like these guys that much. Not saying they can't be helpful, but they're a bit simplistic for my tastes. I don't much like the 1s I guess.

Top tier
All of them

/my list

I was working on a system to grade the heroes, but it got really complex.  Here's a rough take on it (not personal preference, but my opinion of how overall good a hero is)

Tier One:  the Leaders

Legacy:  He can shut down the villains deck, damage, heal, boost.  He can deal really good one-shot damage when needed.

TLT (the only promo I'm including):  Tachyon is really strong, Team Leader takes 90% of her strength and adds possibly the best support power in the game, as a base power.

Omnitron-X:  what can't he do?  He is involved in so many game breaking combos it is unreal.  When set up he can draw, play cards, deal damage and heal allies and then skip his turn.

Wraith:  jack of all trades, master of. . . all?  Her only downside is she needs equipment, she counters that with the single best pulling equipment card in the game and lots of copies of her goodies.

Tier Two:  The Juggernauts

Haka:  he augments a dizzying array of damage with the Haka line of hand manipulation + a bonus cards. (seriously draw 2 discard 1 is a great card in most decks, he gets a bonus added in as well)  Savage Mana and Ground Pound are both epic additions that turn a really bruising dealer into a juggernaut of enemy destruction.

Tempest:  Massive one-shot damage, great array of powers, damage bonuses and start of turn damage, ongoing and environment destruction, he is an engine of win.  His only downside is he can be really frail sometimes.  Take away the +1 damage taken on his one card and he's tier one.

The Scholar:  Amazing healing, solid damage, somewhat hard to maintain.  DDA is one of the top cards in the game, and scholar burns his deck.  his deck mechanics are top notch, maybe only outpaced by the next entry on this list.

Chrono Ranger:  Superior deck mechanics, he can get knocked down and be back on his feet in a minute, and if you don't knock him down he will stay on the big bad guys tail gunning him down in record time.

Tier Three:  Winning.

Tachyon:  the only thing holding Tachyon back is how easily she runs out of cards when she is really rolling if she can't find trust fund.  She needs help to dominate the field, but with that help she crushes everyone.  Without it she still drastically improves your chance of winning.

Fanatic:  No one burns down a villain like the angel of vengeance.  Her damage control is amazing, but requires set up and maintenance, her damage output can b amazing, or just ordinary if things don't go your way.  Aegis is the best heal in the game, if it is up when you would die, and End of days can be game breaking in the right setup.  Like Tachyon sh'es a good fit in any situation, evil crushing demi-goddess in the right situation.

The Visionary:  that help some heroes need to make it from alright to awesome, or really good to gods of battle?  That help is visionary.  her base power can help anyone's hand, and TtE can break the limitations of a number of heroes.  She can also just shut down a villain or environment, and has a ton of shenanigans to pull with WtM.  Her fallback of Cocoon is good, but finding ways to survive without it is even better.

The Argent Adept:  Where the Visionary is about raising the floor of an ally, Adept blows off the ceiling for his team.  He can help you draw a card if he is set up right, but his real strength is doing a ton of things at once.  Early on he's good, when the team is set up he's the conductor bringing the whole team to new heights of success.

Tier Four:  The Good

Ra:  lots of damage, lots of it.  Some really cool side effects, but mostly fire and lots of it.  Need damage, Ra's your boy.

Absolute Zero:  one of those heroes you build you team around, because otherwise he might not be that much help.  Set up in the right team he's dominant, but his set up takes a bit and he may need help to shine, but dang, he's worth it.

Nightmist:  She doesn't need help like AZ, she isn't one sided like Ra, but she can backfire pretty badly.  Set up and rolling she is an unkillable destroyer, but minus a few key cards and she's just killing herself.  Depending on your experience with her I could see moving her up.

Unity:  She fills a very cool niche.  She needs way less support than people tend to think, and Hasty Augmentation is amazing.  Stealth Bot, Cryo Bot, Unity is really good.  

Tier Five:  The best for last.

Mr. Fixer:  Many teams just don't need him, but many benefit a lot from him.  know your enemy, know your allies, and you will be victorious.

Expatriette:  she ranks down here because every once in a while you get that game where your deck hates you.  Her damage is consistant and versatile.  Her ammo is really a good mechanic, and has a lot of uses.

Bunker:  maybe the most set up intensive hero.  He has many weapons, but only a few great ways to use them.  His best set ups still limit him compared to other heroes, but he can do many things, and with the right support and a little luck, he can dominate.

Real quick addition here:

I couldn't help but notice when I looked back over the list that I still managed to group them in like/dislike categories.

I do not enjoy playing tier 1 heroes, they are just too good without enough work required.

I don't really enjoy tier 2 either, although if I need a really powerful hero to play I go Tempest.

Tier 3 are my go to destroyers, when I want to be the team MVP I go for one of tier 3's heroes.

Tier 4 I don't go for either, they are good, but not my preference.

Tier 5 are my favorites, I love Fixer and Expat, they contribute so much without dominating, they are really strong at rounding out a team and filling in gaps.  Bunker is relly fun when you have some one playing a support that works well with him, or when I want a bit more adversity.

hm,  well favorite is largely subjective I guess, but sure.

Top:   I always have a lot of fun.

1.  Tempest:     I still just can't get over this guy.   Good damage, solid team support,  the only alien on the team, great art.  Favorite hero,

2.  Fanatic:  tons of fun.   Requires some thinking to use well, and I like that.   And it's thinking in terms of strategy, and not thinking as in needless complexity.   Easy to learn, hard to master,   which is exactly my type of hero.

3-4 in no particular order:    Crono Ranger:  Very stylish, I like the bounties.   He's a beast when he's on.   When he's off he at least usually has the goods to get himself back in the game.

Ra:  I feel poor Ra is very underrated.   Mostly because he's perceived as somewhat of a newbie hero.  While new players do well with him, squeezing every last drop of awesome out of Ra isn't as simple as it might seem.  Knowing when to throw your staff, what buffs to play, when to blast and what to blast are all big parts of playing Ra that people don't often talk about.   He doesn't get enough credit.

2nd tier:  I usually/often have a lot of fun.

Visionary:  I like "control" heroes, I wish there were more of them.   She's well done and her deck and her theme match very well.

Absolute Zero Elemental Wrath:  this is the only hero I am going to split into promo/non promo.  I love the Elemental wrath version, I like playing fun things out of his deck.  Cold Snap,  Impale, Fueled Freeze,  these are my favorite cards.  He's interesting.

Bunker:   He's not the strongest hero in the deck,  but he almost made it to T-1.   I just really enjoy him.   Budda budda budda budda budda.   I also like those foam greneades ,  no other hero can do that.

Tachyon:  She's enjoyable, sometimes I think she's a  little too good.  But she has a lot of control, a lot of support.   Not a lot of damage unless it's the last turn of the game =p.

Legacy:  I like him.  He's in the same boat as Tach with power, but he's fun to play.   I like take down, Danger Sense, Heroic Interception.   I like his leader aspect.

Wraith:   Cool,  but a little stale.   She always seems to play exactly the same.  But its sort of a fun same.

Omnitron-X:  Hard for me to describe exactly what I like about him, but there's something I guess.   

Haka:  I can't say anything bad about him.  He's solid.

3rd tier:  oh boy...

Absolute Zero Thermodynamics:  GAAAH,  I JUST WANT TO DO SOMETHING FUN WITH MY POWER PHASE,  WHY IS IT SO HAAAARD?!  

Fixer:   He's sooo coooool.   He's so baaaaaad....  I only really play him if I have a ultra-strong team other than him, or if I feel like losing.

Argent Adept:  Too complicated.  Too lame.  I won't complain if somebody else is playing him, but not for me thank you.

Expatriette:  See Mr. Fixer.

Nightmist:  Just takes too much to get rolling.  When she's on she's on.  But she needs to much to get there.

Unity:   This is a hero I never have fun with.   She is too... binary.   She is either so good she dominates the game, or so bad she does nothing.   I don't even want ANYBODY ELSE to play her.   

Scholar:   "Man,  I'm not a superhero.  You're the superhero.... I'm... you know..  the Dude... man."

Sure, there been plenty of debate on which are better, this is completely personal opinion on fun.  So here is who I have fun with

Super fun (in no order): With rare exception I always really enjoy these guys.

Nightmist, Argent Adept, Wraith, Tachyon, Chrono Ranger

Very fun:

Unity, Tempest, Haka, Ra, Fanatic, Absolute Zero, Scholar, Omni-X, Visionary

Still Ok:

Expatriette, Mr. Fixer, Legacy, Bunker

The last four are really the only ones I don't have too much fun playing which is why I always want to fiddle with them. I've tried several base power changes for Ex and Fixer with mixed success.   For Bunker my current idea is to have the Mode cards changed to say that you can return them to hand instead of destroy them at the start of your turn.

I have a half-way text on my tier list which I'll clearly won't finish, so here's the list anyway. It's based on 3 Hero teams and it takes into account each hero on it's own and how much 'points' (contribution) it can do to the team on it's own (or increase other's contribution).

Legacy, Omnitron-X
Scholar, Wraith, Tempest
Ra, Nightimst, Visionary, Argent Adept
Chrono Ranger, Fanatic, Tachyon, Haka
Unity, Absolute Zero, Bunker, Fixer
Expatriette

Favorites:

Setback, Omnitron-X, Mr. Fixer

Top tier (strong in most any game):

Legacy, Tachyon, Tempest, Omnitron-X, The Scholar, Wraith

Second Tier (strong but not extreme)

Haka, Bunker, Ra

Third tier (finicky, good but may have tough games more often):

Mr. Fixer, Chrono Ranger, Nightmist, Visionary, Argent Adept, Unity

Fourth tier (I have difficulty making them shine):

Absolute Zero, Expatriette, Fanatic

I really like these lists just to see how different people experience different heroes differently.

Bunker two tiers above AZ is not a common placement I would wager.

My favorites:

Expat, Bunker, AZ, Legacy, Tachyon, NightMist.

For me, my AZ hand is usually all the gain your modules cards, followed by multiple duplicate modules, and not much else.  Or, all the reclaim modules from trash cards, one-shots and ongoings and…no modules at all.

My rankings (Notes:  I am not including promos.  I have not had a chance to play the Vengeance characters.  About 2/3 of my game are with family/friends/gaming group and 1/3 solo, this is useful to take some of the descriptions below into the proper context.  Even the heroes on the bottom are still enjoyable to me, just not as much as the ones towards the top).

Tier 1:

Fanatic

Mister Fixer

Expatriette

These are my favorites.  I probably play Fanatic in about 1/3 of my games.  I just love that she has some of the most gamechanging cards out there in Wrathful Retribution, Divine Focus, and End of Days.  There's just something fun about finding just the right time to unleash them.  Mister Fixer is enjoyable because I never feel like he has a certain set strategy in order to play him.  When I go into a game with Mister Fixer, I don't find myself always knowing what the perfect combo is as his role varies from game to game and I like that a lot.  Expatriette is just cool.  It is fun to just unload ammo charged shots on the opposition.  Unfortunately I hardly ever get to play her except in solo games as my girlfriend and youngest cousin, two of my most common playing partners, will always take her.

Tier 2:

Argent Adept

Ra

Tempest

Being that I am not a fan of support characters, it is really a surprise that I enjoy Argent Adept this much.  I just think the different combos he can get by linking his instruments, melodies, harmonies, and rhythyms together is just really enjoyable.  I enjoy heavy offensive sluggers naturally hence my predisposition to both Ra and Tempest.  Ra when all I want to do is smash or Tempest if I feel like being more thinky.

Tier 3

Nightmist

Unity

Omnitron-X

These are my characters where some games I absolutely love with them, but others they are closer to duds.  I love the randomness with Nightmist although for some reason I just don't feel like I play here correctly.  Unity's robots are so fun, but there will be the occasional game where you just can't get anything going.  And Omnitron-X has my favorite base power in the game.  The tension right before you timeshift that card sometimes makes for a really cool experience.

Tier 4

Tachyon

Chrono Ranger

The Wraith

These are characters who I did not initially enjoy as much, but I am warming up to.  They are popular with my group so I haven't gotten a chance to perfect them yet.  I find myself eager to play them at present to see if I can develop their sweet spot.  To me, Tachyon and The Wraith strike a balance between attack and support with Chrono Ranger being a more offensive oriented hero who I am still getting used to.

Tier 5

Legacy

The Visionary

The Scholar

I consider these 3 the strongest heroes in the game.  That is a large part of the reason that I don't enjoy them as much as I have found certain situations where these 3 have almost broken the game.  Also, they are all three very much support characters and I would rather be an attack or a hybrid character.  Nonetheless still enjoyable for the occasional ride if my group picks all offensive characters.

Tier 6

Haka

Absolute Zero

Bunker

Least favorite of a great bunch.  Haka is actually moving up a bit, but the problem that I have with all three of these as they seem like you really have to play to a certain setup each game to be effective.  When you do, look out!  But I don't feel as their is quite as much choice in playing these three as the others so that's why they stay towards the bottom.

Play at any opportunity: Chrono-Ranger, Haka (much more subtle than many realize), Unity

Play happily: Wraith, Omnitron-X, Scholar, Tempest, Nightmist

Play with genuine (mostly) smile: Argent Adept, Ra, Legacy, Expatriette

Play only under duress: Bunker, Fanatic, Mr. Fixer, Absolute Zero, Tachyon

Nothing to do with which hero(ine) combinations are best, mind you!

Arathorn

I find that my preferences really change over time, as I learn new tricks and neat ways to play various characters.  As such, my list is very temporal.  Further, my list has nothing to do with efficiency or strength, simply personal preference.

Current Favorites:  Fanatic (so versatile, so many options!), Argent Adept (every game with him is different!), Visionary (her ability to utterly shut down Villains is unbelievable), The Scholar (the Liquid Energy Engine really hooked me...), Mister Fixer (always a solution to whatever needs fixing!)

Current Non-Faves:  Wraith (very repetitive to me), Haka (never seems to do as much damage as he should), Tempest (either he becomes a heal-bot or all one-shots), Chrono-Ranger (repetitive, again).

HA! Really glad my LEE guide helped your love for Scholar. Thats awesome.

@Foote--it gave me a new way to look at him, which really changed the way I view and play certain cards.  While I still have my reservations with certain villains, it's certainly a neat way to play him!

Interesting to see Tachyon so low.

I consider Visionary, Legacy, Chrono-Ranger, Omnitronks, and Nightmist to be the "tier 1" heroes who nearly always render their teams close to unbeatable (of these, the three time-travelers are the ones I actually enjoy playing most; Nightmist is fun but a little too brain-melting and painful, and Legacy just bores me).  Scholar and Unity are close behind, but a bit too luck-dependent, as is the Argent Adept and he's more underwhelming besides.  Tempest is incredibly strong, a definite 4 on his own merits (though, depressingly, he often seems to be more valuable to the party dead than alive - his incap power has nearly won two otherwise-impossible games in two different ways).  Tachyon is strong in a simple way; I'd put her in tier 3 with Argent, and also Bunker.  Expatriette and Haka are effective but a little dull, and Ra is even more of both of those things; Wraith has a lot of options in theory, but in practice spends far too much time just shooting things.  I'd call all of these tier 2.  I am uniquely terrible with Fanatic and Zero, as they're just very good at killing themselves, and I never seem to calculate their safety margins right.  I would call them tier 1 along with Mister Fixer, who is just generally weaksauce in my opinion, largely due to poor luck.  Sure he's great if you can spend turns 1-3 setting up Jack Handle and Driving Mantis and Harmony, but I don't think I've ever once seen it happen, and Salvage Yard is good, but only incredible if you play the all-tech party.  I know it's possible for Fanatic to be effective, I've seen it happen, but I can't generally pull it off, so I call her tier 1 for me, while Fixer is tier 1 for anybody IMO, based on my experiences with him - I just don't see him being effective in most of the toughest fights, since his bailiwick is too limited, and his ability to even fulfill often goes awry.

So by my assessment, that's five tier 1 heroes, four in tier 3, and three each in the other three tiers.  But that's just based on my experiences to date, having played them all 13 or more times.

Yes, indeed; I may never be able to take Omnitron seriously, because of how badly she has pwned him in my playing career.  I consider it rather lame, and kind of don't like playing her as much as I should for this reason…her ability to "time lock" a villain is an uncool sort of weapon that can be used to take all the fun and satisfaction out of a victory (the same is true of End of Days IMO, but that's just one card, while Visionary has several of these effects).  I still love her for other reasons, but between this issue, her underwhelming psychic damage blasts, and Brain Burn, there's not a single hero deck I have more deisre to customize (or at least to stack).

I heartily disagree with Fixer assesment, I adore Fixer, and find him to be really useful in most fights.

Of course I happen to love Expatriette and they work incredibly well together.

Fixer vs. Apostate the other night was amazing.  He rocked a Bloody knuckles/crane second roun to get rid of that pesky -2 to damage on that one relic, letting us kill unkowable before we had no cards left, and shen they all came back out in force he had Harmony, Handle, and Tiger out.  he played bloody knuckles and nearly cleared the board, the redirection to the one relic and the -2 didn't bother him at all, he just crushed through apostate's relics.

Driving Mantis + Nightmist is also fun.  We had Tachyon in a group with those 2 and Omnitron-X, when nightmist did oblivion and dealt all heroes 3 infernal (2+1) omni took one damage and reactive plating triggered, Fixer redirected (he had wrench), Tachyon redirected and Nightmist redirected, it was epic and one huge shot of damage for Kismet

Heroes Salvage yard isn't so great with:

Legacy, Tachyon, Tempest, Scholar, Visionary.

Everyone else is either Equip dependent or has a way of trashing equipment to good effect.  Tempest only has a few equips, but you can discard them and get them back with salvage, but he doesn't benefit much from it since he has such great card draw and trash recovery already.

Don't forget one of my favorite Fixer combos:

Hoist Chain+Tiger.

Round three vs. IL I played charge, then strike, then adept let me play overdrive.  -4 to IL damage was awesome.  Stun bolts may be able to do more damage with micro and reliably shoot twice more often, but irreducible damage is amazing to shut down a shielded enemies damage, and you have nine cards that let you hit twice in one turn.

I don't really have "tiers" as such, but if I really wanted to segregate the heroes it'd be a bit like this.

Heroes I really like for probably no real reason and thus am slightly more likely to select them: Expatriette, Nightmist, Scholar, Tachyon, Unity

Heroes I'll happily play: Absolute Zero, Fanatic, Mr. Fixer, Haka, Legacy, Omnitron-X, Ra, Tempest, Wraith.

Heroes I'm not so keen on either through lack of familiarity on my part or because I just find them dull, and thus am less likely to choose them but I'll play them without complaining: Bunker, Chrono-Ranger, Visionary

Heroes I actively avoid due to extreme lack of familiarity and potential brain-meltiness as a result of said lack of familiarity but that I do plan to spend some time "learning" so I can feel more confident in playing them in future: Argent Adept

Using the SIlverleaf system

Heroes I really like for probably no real reason and thus am slightly more likely to select them: Absolute Zero, Omintron-X, Unity, Chrono-Ranger, Legacy

Heroes I'll happily play: Nightmist, Scholar, Tachyon, Haka, Tempest, Wraith, Argent Adept, Expatriette.

Heroes I'm not so keen on either through lack of familiarity on my part or because I just find them dull, and thus am less likely to choose them but I'll play them without complaining:  Fanatic, Mr. Fixer, Ra, Bunker, Visonary.

Favorites that I always want to play: Ra (So much fun, but has to be played with characters who don't care what damage type they use) , Haka (His Savage Mana is insane!), Chrono Ranger, Omnitron X, or Unity.

I want to play every once in a while: Expatriette, Argent Adept, Scholar

Will use if needed: Legacy, Wraith, Tempest, Tachyon, Fanatic (All great heroes, just not my favorites.)

Disdainfully play: Mr. Fixer, Bunker (Both have way too much effort to set up for not enough pay off.)

Refuse to be at the same table as: Nightmist (Always used by a certain person who can't play her; I realize this is biased.), Visionary (Same as Nightmist), Absolute Zero (I've never played a game where we didn't realize that the last three turns we all did something wrong with him.)

I know that my compartments aren't very traditional, but it's how I feel about them. This will probably change over time, but after 25-30 games, this is how I rank them.

Edit: I posted too soon. I haven't been on the forums in a while, and wasn't quite sure was Ruling 15 was all about. Since it effectively nerfed my favorite character/combo (Imbued Fire, Solar Flare, and Flesh of the Sun God), I will have to re-evaluate him after I received the errata pack.

PS. I didn't use any promo character cards in this list; only the base versions.

Since there are 18 Heroes, I divided my "favorites" list into thirds.

Almost always have fun:

Nightmist, Unity, Argent Adapt

Have fun a lot:

Chrono Ranger, The Scholar, Omni-X

Usually have fun, but some set-backs can be annoying:

Absolute Zero, Ex-Patriette, Tempest

I'll still have fun, but I'd rather choose a different hero:

Visionary, Mr. Fixer, Haka

I guess this is sort of fun:

Tachyon, Legacy, Fanatic

Not having as much fun (but, hell, we all know I'm still have loads of fun because I'm playing the greatest game ever):

Wraith, Bunker, Ra

I hope you're open to reconsidering these rankings when/if you get a chance to play with different people.  While I make mistakes very often in the game, Zero is not generally the focus on them; I'm quite good at playing him to full effect (albeit a bit conservatively, rather than the suicidal nova-blasting way that I-think-Ronway has said he like to use Mr. Frost).  And Misty and Visi are also favorite heroes of mine.  What exactly do your friends do when playing these which you disapprove of?

Usually have fun, but some set-backs can be annoying:

So You don't like the promo card?

Meh, it's not that great really.

I personally find the ability to give anyone a "Stealth" bonus to be pretty awesome.

you don't get to choose. It's the next hero target to take damage. plus it costs an unlucky token, which slows down his setup, AND is just way less fun to use than his base power.

shakes head

I think your view is wrongheaded. It's not a slowdown of a "setup" if it plays into what you are setting up for. You make it sound like he is way more one dimensional them he is (like there is even a singular "setup" for him in the first place). He is heavily interaction focused. I think you might be missing some interesting possibilities.

The reduction is granted regardless of whether you have the token to pay or not.  I'm not saying that isn't a cost, but it is something to be considered.  My group played him the other day and thought he was quite different, but not outright "bad."  If you don't like it, I understand, but the damage reduction really helped us out for quite some time before GloomSpite stomped us.

Back on the thread topic, here is my current grouping of heroes.

Tier 1, all time favorites:  Nightmist, The Scholar, Chrono-Ranger and Omnitron-X in some order, then Absolute Zero, then Visionary.

Tier 2, frequently enjoyed:  Tempest, Unity, The Wraith, Tachyon (on the verge of beginning to bore me, but still a lingering favorite), Haka, the Argent Adept (he's grown steadily on me with experience, though still a bit weak for my preferences).

Tier 3, somewhat lacking:  Ra (fun when I condescent to play him, but just too simplistic to really satisfy me), Fanatic, Mr. Fixer and Bunker and Expatriette in some order, and still in dead last place, Legacy.

Do any of the promo versions make a particular hero go up or down on your scale?  e.g. Is Absolute Zero - Elemental Wrath different enough to drop him a tier, or Young Legacy worthy of a promotion?

TIER 1, favourites: The Scholar, Tachyon

TIER 2, will really happily play: Absolute Zero, Ra, Expatriette, The Argent Adept, Chrono-Ranger, Omnitron-X, Unity

TIER 3, will still happily play: Bunker, Fanatic, Haka, Legacy, Tempest, The Wraith, Mr Fixer,

TIER 4, not for me: Nightmist, The Visionary

Yeah I should definitely resort my list with added promos; I have all the promos printed (and will have legit copies of the freedom 6 soon enough!) but I've still only played with them a handful of times.  I guess here is how I'd rank them.

AZ Elemental Wraith - prefer original

Bunker Engine of War - better

GI Bunker - toss up

Redeemer Fanatic - better

The Eternal Haka - better

Young Legacy - toss up

America's Greatest Legacy - toss up

Horus Ra - prefer original

Team Leader Tachyon - better

Freedom Tempest - prefer original

Rook City Wraith - prefer original

Price of Freedom Wraith - prefer original

Dark Visionary - toss up

Golem Unity - prefer original

DW Ex-Patriette - toss up

DW Mr. Fixer - better

DW Nightmist - prefer original

DW Setback - NA

THAT... is an awesome question.

AZ Elemental Wrath (not Wraith, btw) - I prefer the original, because it's easier to heal, but it's good against really destruction-heavy villains.

Bunker Engine of War - better

GI Bunker - better, by a lot; especially against villains with lots of DR.

Redeemer Fanatic - better

The Eternal Haka - better

Young Legacy - Prefer the original

America's Greatest Legacy - better

Horus Ra - prefer original

Team Leader Tachyon - better

Freedom Tempest - prefer original

Rook City Wraith - better

Price of Freedom Wraith - better, but I prefer Rook City

Dark Visionary - better

Golem Unity - prefer original

DW Ex-Patriette - better

DW Mr. Fixer - toss up

DW Nightmist - prefer original

DW Setback - prefer original

I disagree. Very rarely will I benefit from LOSING a token. losing a token is usually a cost. There is 1 specific instance where I will want an EXACT number of tokens, and for me the benefits of it are far outweighed by having LOTS of tokens and just enjoying the multiple, stacking benefits of them, as well as being able to afford the effects that require me spending them.

Besides, it's an opinion. That's why I find it less fun. Not saying it's inherently BAD, per se, but I don't enjoy it. It is not conducive to how I play him or enjoy playing him at all.

Perhaps we should hold the discussion on Setback until after Vengeance is released to the public? Or at the very least, take it to PMs.

Thank goodness someone finally said it. While no real spoilers for Setback were mentioned it seems rude to talk so vaguely about things the other forumites don’t have knowledge of. It’s pretty annoying, at least I thought it was before I became a tester to see such vague information it’s like you guys are taunting the non testers sometimes.

I never meant to tantalize anyone.  I was attempting to discuss the power itself without reference to Setback's deck.  If I've frustrated anyone, I apologize.  I just know that it is commonly held understanding in Sentinels that if the text on a card is "Pay X.  Do this." without an "If damage was dealt/if you do/etc." then the effect goes off whether the first effect was successful or not.  This has been discussed with Promo Fixer's Bitter Strike, Nightmist's Investigate, and PW Fanatic's unnamed power, along with a few others.  That is not an opinion.  This is a game mechanic.  Now, there is a matter of whether one prefers these effects with or without the cost, and clearly McBehrer doesn't with Dark Watch Setback.  I'm just doing my best to not sour the character for players before his deck is even released.

I know you weren’t and i get not wanting the game ruined for the others before they get a chance to play, also i’m sure mcbehrer didn’t mean to tantalize either, he was just comparing base Setback to DW Setback.

Truth be told I haven’t looked at the vengeance stuff since testing ended dso I hadn’t really cared to think about how promo Setback would play.

The only hero promos I've tried are Rook City Wraith, Young Legacy, Engine of War Bunker, Dark Watch Nightmist, Dark Watch Mr. Fixer, and very briefly Dark Watch Expatriette.  Of these, only Wraith and Fixer were more than one game, and Bunker was an extremely short game in which I only used the promo's power once, then changed my mind about using it (it was a forum game, so turns can be retroactively redone).

My assessments of these:

Young Legacy:  So much more fun than regular Legacy.  I've only tried one game, but this was enough to suspect that I'd probably find her to be a full tier more enjoyable overall than her original counterpart.  Using Galvanize always feels like an act of utter passivity to me, but Atomic Glare is incredible, especially with the bonus from Surge of Strength.  Legacy's deck still has a lot of cards that don't impress me (I groan every time I draw Danger Sense, and way too many duplicate Limiteds show up with no way to discard them), but that promo is definitely a massive step in the right direction.

RC Wraith:  I can't really say that she's better per se, as Stealth is probably more useful than Investigation in terms of what it contributes to a game.  (This is probably why Spiff houseruled his own version of RC Wraith; the ruling is perhaps too powerful, but without it, her utility is questionable at best).  But I really like the idea of her, just because her effectiveness varies wildly depending on the Environment you play in, and the result can really contribute to the underlying story of the game.  (EG, you're in Pike Industrial; if you Investigate, you might find Rats which could come into play with Experimental Mutagen, but then Investigating again can find more Rats that can actually destroy the Mutagen by being trashed from the deck.)  It might be better if her power worked like Dark Visionary's Turmoil, only restricted to the enviro deck; as-is, it's a Timeshift so limited, and the big problem with Timeshift has always been that it never stops the deck from playing a nasty card…if Dawn has an Aurora on top of her deck, you might Timeshift past it, but without having seen the deck, you don't know that Aurora isn't the second card therein, which you just Timeshifted into.  RC Wraith has the same problem, and so she isn't necessarily "good", but I enjoy her just because she interects directly with the Environment in a way most heroes don't.

Bunker EOW:  My experience with him was brief, but overall I'd call it a toss-up.  I almost never use Initialize, but on occasion it can be highly desireable, and you can feel pretty stupid not having it when you need it, like when you desperately need to write someone a note and you can't find a pencil to save your life.  The Ongoing destruction of EOW is a potential game-saver, but not something you'll use regularly, and you have to have one of a small subset of your deck's cards to get use out of it, so it's definitely not going to come up every turn.  I'd say overall, this one is a slight edge in favor of regular Bunker, but it definitely doesn't change his Tier…whether or not Locomotion is useful, it's certainly not especially fun.  (Drawing a card is at least always a tiny moment of discovery, IMO.)

DW Nightmist:  I only played her once, and do not feel that this was enough in her case to really get a feel for the change.  Being able to set up my spells proved somewhat handy, but remembering what cards I'd stacked last turn was taxing to my poor memory, and the inability to fill my hand with Investigation was a critical loss.  More research is definitely needed; I feel like I'd enjoy her the most with a large party, where she might hide in Mist Form and let the other heroes die, then take advantage of Incap abilities to use Attunement before playing a spell, thereby avoiding memory issues.  The altered playstyle is definitely interesting; whether it's enjoyable remains to be seen.

DW Fixer:  Overall, I'd call this a slight reduction in enjoyment compared to regular Fixer, not that he's one of my favorites in the first place.  The Bloody Knuckles combo is just cheap, the Salvage Yard synergy is mildly appreciated but would matter more if you didn't have just 2 of them, and otherwise, burning your cards in play as fast as you can lay them down is an uncomfortable prospect.  I have a strong personal dislike for taking turns in which I play a card but don't use a power (or vice versa), and so DW Fixer is specifically somewhat uncomfortable to me specifically.  Still, 3 damage as a Power is a lot, and he can stack a ton of bonuses on it…Jack Handle in particular is amazing with bitter Strike.  He needs a lot of help to really shine, even more than this is true of regular Fixer, and since I didn't really love MF in the first place, this one is kind of a step backwards to me.  But it has its charms, and I'm far from decided on the matter after only two games.

DW Expat:  I have not yet used Aim, but I have already found myself wishing I had Load instead, even though past experience has taught me that Load is often not useful.  However I have found the +1 HP to be of critical usefulness, since it puts you into a tie with Fanatic and Ra on the first turn, and thus allows Miss Flak Jacket to do a little more first-turn tanking.  Generally I would say that Load is more fun, but Aim is quite probably more useful…I've often said that every other hero wants Load more than Expatriette does, since her deck is among the most static of the bunch (I've literally seen her turn into a robot in one game, where her player had to leave after three turns, but we never missed him because she was playing herself by then).  Aim doesn't make that big of a difference, but since Load is only giving you more of what you already had (play phases), while Aim can actually help you punch through DR more effectively on certain occasions, it can definitely be useful, and you're not sacrificing too much to gain the option of it.  Thusly, I'd call it a slight advantage, but certainly not one that changes her ranking.

My thoughts on the promos

AZ Elemental Wrath - I'll only use him in a quick fight, against a villain that needs to be beat down now. I adore original AZ, but feel EW loses a lot of the flavour.

Bunker Engine of War - has his uses, and is crazy fun against villains that work on ongoings.

GI Bunker - Haven't used

Redeemer Fanatic - The ability to draw extra cards per turn is great, since I find her deck a little stilted.

The Eternal Haka - Fun, and flavourful, but about equal to his original

Young Legacy - Again, has uses, and can be fun, but I'm one of those rare people who actually like playing base Legacy

America's Greatest Legacy - Havn't used

Horus Ra - I don't really see his point, to be frank.

Team Leader Tachyon - Very fun. Good for teaching people about deck interactions

Freedom Tempest - prefer original

Rook City Wraith - prefer original

Price of Freedom Wraith - prefer original

Dark Visionary - Prefer her to the base

Golem Unity - Like AZ Elemental Wrath, only for short games.

DW Ex-Patriette - I actually really like aim. It's fun.

DW Mr. Fixer - Haven't used yet

DW Nightmist - Haven't used yet.

DW Setback - NA

What I like most about the promos is that they offer a way to make up for some of the shortcomings certain heroes have, thus changing their playstyle.

I've heard some people don't like Elemental Wrath AZ, but I think that's because they expect to play him exactly like original AZ.  But, the strategy involved with EWAZ is much different; instead of a high risk/reward mechanic that has a reliable heal, EWAZ is less risky when it comes to damage but less tanky due to lower health and a base power that can't heal him.

Golem Unity gives her the option to support her own Golems at the cost of health instead of her and her partners' stuff.  Young Legacy gives Legacy more offensive capabilities at the cost of a powerful support ability.  Team Leader Tachyon turns into a powerful support character and Engine of War Bunker provides him with much needed ongoing destruction but can lead to a slower set up.  Even if a promo card may seem "worse" on the surface, there are usually situations where the promo and the different playstyle that comes with it would be a much better choice.

I think the only promo card I don't think is a good alternative to the base character is Price of Freedom Wraith (and perhaps someone can explain to me why she's a good choice!)  She loses 1 health and Stealth for a low damage base power that isn't even affected by Micro Targeting Computer's damage boost and is quickly rendered obsolete by Razor Ordinance, Throwing Knives, Infared Eye Piece, or Stun Bolt considering it's incredibly easy to get plenty of equipment on the field (thanks to those Trust Funds and Impromptu Inventions).  Out of all the promos, she's the only one where I pick the original every single time.

Price of Freedom Wraith is preferable to use when combined with heros or environments thats globablly change damage type (like Ra/Pike Industrial). Those really hamper Micro Targeting Computer and her damage out. It also lets her diversify her damage types since it is mostly projectile, giving some leway with enemies like Omnitron or Voss's minions that can become immune to certain damage types. It is very niche, but so is Rook City Wraith. For a hero that is already as overall powerful as she is, her promos have to cater to very specific situations else she just keeps doing the same things she always does (which she ends up doing regardless).

I'm not very sure about this, but wouldn't Visionary become an excellent teammate for Price of Freedom? Twist the Ether on her, and boom: projectile damage. Double the increase in damage!

That is in fact a very neat idea.  They're both from the future, after all.

That definitely makes sense; thanks for explaining.  I'll definitely try and use her in some of those scenarios and see if she jives with me a little more.  You're right though, base Wraith is definitely overall powerful and is a Jack of All Trades.  It's probably a good choice to make her promos a bit more situational to balance that out.

Also PoF works well with Visionary, put a TtE on Wraith and it does get the bonus from Micro.

I'm totally open to reconsidering any and all rankings, lol. That's just how I felt about them at the moment. I'm sure Visionary, Nightmist, and even AZ are capable of some awesome stuff. I just haven't witnessed any of them in game yet. Specifically, the person who played Visionary only manipulated her own deck to little effect, and the person who played Nightmist kept killing herself.

My ranking of Ra dropped considerably now that his ultra combo was removed.

(In all honesty, I still use Ra un-errata'd sometimes just because I loved that combo so much. It's not current, but it's a coop, and as long as everyone else is OK with it, I'm happy to play him!)

My list also wasn't taking any of the promo versions of the characters into accout either. I'll get into that when I have some more time to think about it.

My off-the-cuff idea is that if you play the rather weak (at least while alive) promo version of Ra, you maybe deserve to be able to use the ubercombo.  After all, what is the point of having a "draw and discard" power in your deck if the best you can string together is Staff + Imbued + Flame Spike + Living Conflagration, for a measly 12 damage?  Nothing terribly godlike about that.  If Ra still has access to Pyre, then I'd definitely say Solar Flare + Flesh of the Sun God is too good.  With Sunrise, at least you still need one more card to be able to actually do the damage that is now boosted by 2 forever with no downside.

Staff + Imbued Fire + Flame Spike + Blazing Tornado, it yields 14 points of damage, which is the same amount as base Ra.

Thats not accurate. The combo was not removed. It is still alive and well. The only difference is that you can't keep it permanently without penalty. He is still one of the top damage dogs in the game and destroys all but the lucky in total damage delt per game with or without the perma combo.

Besides, the probability that you get his ultra combo out is, well, low. Unless of course you really gear your playstyle towards that. Which, under most circumstances, you shouldn't. The Sun God doesn't care for these frivolous accoutrements and "combos" of which you speak! He just wants to BUUUUUUURN.

Playing Scorched Earth and then activating Drawn to the Flame when you have a bunch of buffs (whether or not there are many/any environment and/or villain ongoing cards in play) does a nice heap of damage to All Of The Things as well :).

Solar flare gets so little love since it was nerfed.

It is essentially Bloody Knuckles, but better because you don't have to take increased damage, and for 4 damage you can use it for an additional full turn.

It is an awesome card, the old combo was just broken.  Ra is still a great damage dealer, and Solar Flare is still a huge card in his arsenal.

Great comparison

The big issue with Solar Flare is that it "benefits" so much from Ra's other damage-boosting cards.  With the Staff and Imbued Fire out, he's dealing himself 8 fire damage a turn, and then hitting himself again for 6 if he's got Flame Barrier out.  I actually use Solar Flare more now than I used to, but it's mostly as an early-game way to overcome DR, not an endgame combo card.

I completely disagree, it is not better than Bloody Knuckles, but at the same time it is not worse. They are two different cards, belonging to two different decks, with the mindset of performing two different goals. So I find it difficult to say that a card is overall better than another.

The big issue with Solar Flare is that it "benefits" so much from Ra's other damage-boosting cards.  With the Staff and Imbued Fire out, he's dealing himself 8 fire damage a turn, and then hitting himself again for 6 if he's got Flame Barrier out.  I actually use Solar Flare more now than I used to, but it's mostly as an early-game way to overcome DR, not an endgame combo card.

I agree that it benefits a ton from his other cards. You cite the Staff of Ra and Imbued Fire. I counter with Imbued Fire and Flesh of the Sun God.

I know exactly where you are coming from, but what exactly would the difference in goals be? They function to serve the same goal, increasing your damage. They have different draw backs, but the reason why you play them is the same. But yes, it is tough to say 2 similar cards that exist within very different contexts are better/worse than the other.

As for the "not an endgame combo", thats so wrongheaded. Of course it is. Just because you cannot subvert the penalty doesn't devalue the benefits that you gain. Add the fact that the penalty is not compulsive but optional, I find this a hard opinion to defend. 

Which, as per the ruling, would result in Solar Flare being destroyed due to not receiving any damage…

Right, but so much damage!

Which definition of "combo" are you using that requires cards to stay in play indefinitely? 

I am merely pointing out that Christopher's counter really doesn't do much. Solar Flare still gets destroyed. Might as well use the Staff of Ra + Solar Flare combo, at least you have the option (painful though it may be) to keep it. PLus, you get a +1. It's better! In almost every way!

No one said anything about combos having to stay indefinitely.

I think the Imbued Fire+Flesh of the Sun God counter Christopher mentioned was more geared toward the comment that Flame Barrier would be a potential nightmare

Ah. Oops. Okay. That's right, then.

But that doesn't help at all. Without FotSG, you can hit yourself for up to fourteen damage and keep the card, or you can destroy it. With FotSG, you must destroy it. That's not better, that's worse.

Ra can easily do oodles and oodles of damage, but Solar Flare becomes less synergistic the more cards Ra has in play.  I basically never bother keeping it around unless it's early in the game.  Early game, it's a great boost.  But once Ra has a stack of cards in play, it's either impossible or too painful to keep it in play, but hey, it's a +2 damage boost for a turn.  Once I've got all the buffs out, though, Flame Spike is a much better option.

While it is a damage boost, it's basically the opposite of a combo card.  Combos are about synergy, and Solar Flare doesn't really have any.  It's still a good card, and it's an excellent stopgap measure for when you get Devastating Aurora'd, but it's not a combo card.  It's more like an elevated one-shot.

Yes they are both about increasing damage, but the reasoning behind why one wants to increase their damage is different.

You should really add something to let folks who you are responding to.

Fair point. I get confused about it as much as everyone else haha

I agree they are very different, I just wanted to point out that it is better than Bloody Knuckles, which gets more love than Solar Flare gets since the ruling.

Unless you are talking about DWFixer, in which case Bloody Knuckles is clearly and objectivly superior given the context

Remember my "Lamest Games" thread?  By my definition, a game where Ra laid FOTSG on turn 1, Imbued Fire on turn 2 and Solar Flare on turn 3, and then had a free +3 to damage forever, would be a little bit lame.  Solar Flare is much cooler post-errata, because you're forced to let it be a short-term boost, which fits the concept of him "flaring" briefly with extra power.  Although instead of the ruling we got, I might have preferred if the "deal self 4 psychic damage" was replaced with "lose 4 HP", so that it no longer interacts with Imbued Fire in any case, nor self-triggers Flame Barrier.  But either way, it needed something.

I was assuming you throw the staff for your second power; if you add Blazing Tornado you need an extra card to pull off what's already a four-card combo (the cards aren't too much of a problem thanks to Sunrise, but you still need four card-plays to set it up, and without Argent Adept or an incap hero around, that's three turns of hoping you don't get wiped).  But yes it was a little silly for me to mention Conflagration instead of Tornado.