Your most frustrating hero to play?

For me it's got to be Unity.  For some reason I just can't get the hang of her.  Even after reading Flamethrower's excellent guide.  I wind up with one or two bots in my hand and nothing else.  Everytime I manage to play a bot, it gets destroyed almost immediately.  Seems I can just never get anything going.  She seems to be a real favorite here, but maybe she's just not for me.

Who do you have trouble/no luck playing?

I happen to love playing Unity. However I have zero luck with Nightmist or Chrono Ranger. Both are a high risk/high return character. I guess I play a little to risky for them seeing as how I die so quickly as both of them. It's like the lifespan of a fly I swear.

I have not been able to get as much out of The Scholar as I feel I should. Need to study the card interactions a bit more.

Part of my love for Unity is her flavor text. That being said, I've found it important when playing Unity to be careful to think through the likelihood of any particular bot surving for very long. If they aren't going to survive, no point putting them out.

I find a little selfishness helps w/ NightMist. Don't worry too much about what else you're doing until you've gotten the Amulet or at least some other way to heal.

Visionary.  Not so much frustrating as boring.  I just really am not a fan of control heroes

I don't get on with Bunker (feels boring to play since once he's set up and in Turret Mode there's not exactly a lot of choices to be made).

Argent Adept feels far to fiddly to be actually fun - it's a lot of jumping through hoops to activate this thing which activates that thing so I can do this thing now and then that triggers another thing, in a convoluted mess.

And Visionary I find a bit dull as well for the same reason as cmschex.

I'll totally play any of these, but they wouldn't be my first choice!

I love Unity. Although I understand the frustration of not being able to get bots out, but it just seems to make it even sweeter when everything comes together for her and multiple raptor bots start chomping down on the villain.

My two most frustrating, as mentioned before, are Visionary and Fanatic. I just don't seem to get them like I should, and I have read all the guides, it just hasnt clicked yet.

AA would make the list, but I'm so bound and determined to like him and play him correctly that he doesn't frustrate me as much as the others

Argent Adept is probably the most frustrating for me, as he gets the shaft from both Ongoing and Equipment destruction.  He takes so long to get set up (even with cards like Silver Shadow and Arcane Cadence), that any Villain/Environment combo that has a lot of card destruction feels like you're spinning your wheels.  We actually have a cheat sheet that I keep in my box, showing Adept's various instrument combos, simply to speed up those Instrumental Conjuration draws!

I tend to get frustrated with Nightmist at times, if I don't have either Amulet of the Elder Gods or a method to heal hp.  Luckily, at least one of those usually comes up pretty quickly.  A friend of mine did have a game a few days ago where he drew practically 2/3 of his deck and had yet to encounter either a Starshield Necklace or an AotEG.  He was a touch miffed.

That same friend tends to shy away from Bunker for similar reasons, but I think a lot of that is him trying to do too much.  Rather than focusing on the Gatling Gun OR the OmniCannon OR Turret Mode-ing, he tries to do it all and feels ineffective:  "I don't have enough cards to make OmniCannon worthwhile.  Bunker needs too many cards to get set up!"  I find that once you get past the temptation of all the options, your play becomes a lot more liberated (and effective!).

I don't really find Visionary frustrating, but kind of repetitive.  A good deal of her cards simply are "Look at the top 3 cards of a deck; switch them around."  While very useful, it's not particularly fun for me.  

Nightmist by far.  So many times I've sat and drew cards hoping to get cards that can do something without killing me.  When a match goes bad Nightmist seems to be in worse shape than others.

She's crazy fun when the match favors her, but when it doesn't she can get in serious trouble.  Even when she does pretty good it often feels like you do 83 things to have a small impact on the match.

I don't actually agree with this, as there have been times when it was important to do an extra few points of damage, even if I was going to lose that bot soon after it did it. It's really situational, and often I find I have to be willing to lose a bot or two to win a game.

I can just rebuild them, anyway.

I approve. I also feel the same way about heroes. HP is just a resource to draw more power from.

Harder, better, faster, and stronger?

Ah, yes. I wrote an incomplete thought. Should have been, 'If they aren't going to survive, no point putting them out unless there's something that needs immediate attention.'

Mine are Bunker and Expat, for very similar reasons; they both rely heavily on getting all their cards set up, and with little to no searches or card draws, it's entirely a crapshoot whether or not you'll be able to play them well.

That being said, I absolutely relish the complex heroes; Argent Adept and Nightmist are my favorite, as well as a few from Vengeance, The Scholar, and Absolute Zero.

Fixer and Expat. So much that now I play them only with variants since I kinda like their shtick (Fixer: add to Strike "You may play a Tool or Style..."; Expat: all Ammo cards read "You may draw a card"). Otherwise, Wraith, making other Heroes obsolete.

About Unity: she is in the club with AZero of "The thin line between doing pitiful contribution to breaking the game". The trick with her is that she doesn't want to slow-build, she wants to snowball with golems. So barring some BeeBots, you want your first 2 plays to be Construction Pylons to drop the big FF guys, by deaful Stealth Bot to lenghten your bots life (and Unity when needed) and Swift Bot to get the cards to keep the bot pouring up. For this you have Flash Forge, which I read "discard your hand, rig it with Construction Pylons and Big Bots and start rolling next turn". So adding that you can play 2-3 cards per turn and that you want to have 1-2 big turns of dropping golems, I will pass up to 2-3 turns early game to be able to get rolling for the endgame. I do have trouble with Unity when the environment just keeps hitting everything over and over, like in Atlantis, Silver Gulch, but if not her guys will be chomping on the board over and over. If the Villain of turn does not like that approach (ie. Iron Legacy), I'll try to get Volatile Parts down and just let the Bee Bots / Platform Bots explode.

With Unity I just love Cryo bot and damage boosts.  With Legacy/Adept it can get ridiculous.

Expatriette really does not need a lot of setup. One gun, and she's done. Other cards are nice, but not necessary.

Honestly the only character I've NEVER seen flourish is Argent Adept. I've had great runs with Nightmist, Zero and other complex heroes. But Argent just seems to get less for more compared to other heroes that need to be built up. His acceleration is kinda weak too, compared to similar heroes. I would kill for his power to be something like "Play a card" so that he could pick up speed but would depend a lot more on instruments and such.

... you've never played with me then, obviously. We'll have to fix this. You have a Google Plus account?

Also, just to clarify; you know that you can use perform and accompany texts multiple times per turn, right? So in one turn, you can regain 2 HP, have a teammate play a card, increase damage dealt by 2 targets, destroy an ongoing or environment target, blow up a second ongoing or environment card and either have 5 targets regain 1 HP each or have another hero play a card, all without playing any cards? Granted, you'd have to blow up a copy of Alacritous Subdominant, but a Vernal Sonata will bring that right back next turn.

The Adept is probably my favourite hero - I find there's always something you can do with him, even if you've got every song and instrument out (Silver Shadow is a lovely card :D). Even if all you can get out is a couple of songs and an instrument, depending on which instrument it is you can probably still do at least a couple of things on your turn. If that involves letting Unity get out a bot, or Expatriette draw a gun to play next turn, or Legacy to stack a second Galvanise on top of the one he used on the previous turn, it can make all the difference :D.

Yeah, it may be mostly bad luck. I look at the cards in my hand and I think "In a few turns I will have insane combos" but then I always get equipment wipes and ongoing wipes as soon as I pick up any speed. Also if Im being kicked while I'm down, I'm more likely to skip an action or whatever in order to deal with the enviroment.

I can see card destruction as really hurting AA.  I started playing him without looking for crazy combos until they happen naturally so to speak.  In otherwords I play the cards that help me now, and then when I have several out I can start looking at the combos.  

The only thing I really look for at the start is an Inspiring Supertonic and an intrument that can play it.  Giving your choice of hero a power use is one of the best powers in the game, doing an accompany with it is even better.  I feel like if AA has IS he is in great shape.

I also look for situational cards, so if I we need ongoing or environment destruction I might look for the song that lets me destroy those things early.

Ah yeah, Inspiring Supertonic is very handy - I like to combo it with the Lyra and the Harp (using both instruments to activate its Perform text to let me use the next instrument) in order to use a bunch more instruments that turn :).

Actually, now that you mention it, Argent Adept IS really frustrating, just because of those two instruments.

There's Telamond's Lyra, which is actually a lute, and Musaragni's Harp, which is actually a lyre! You'd think they could at least get their medieval instruments right!

I had wondered about that myself, actually - I've heard of a lyre but not a lyra, so I looked it up and it is indeed a musical instrument. I had wondered whether it was supposed to be called Telamon's Lute before that, though. And somehow I'd never clocked that the harp is a lyre...even though I know that's what a lyre looks like!

He's a bartender, what does he know?

I want an evil Argent where he plays an electric guitar and wails damage on all good guys.  He could form an evil metal band of evil and it could be the 80's but with Super Powers.  His Nemesis could be a producer who constantly introduces keyboards and Saxaphone solos into his songs in post production.

I read this and automatically thought of Jem and the Holograms.

Truly outrageous.

I still don't like Mr. Fixer. Even moreso after Chrono-Ranger was released. People claim that Fixer is able to handle situations that others cannot. However, unless he teams up with the right heroes or you house rule him playing him makes me feel like a feeble old man. I think I'd like him a lot more if Bloody Knuckles stayed in play like Hunter and Hunted.

I would have to say for me it is Bunker (Keep in mind I still like all the heroes). I just can't seem to time his switches between modes correctly.  I've also gotten some poor draws with all of my weapons being at the bottom of my deck.  His playstyle reminds me a little bit of how Mr Fixer switches between his Tools & Styles but with Mr Fixer, I have him down.  I'll keep trying, but so far Bunker has been my most frustrating.

My cousin loves Bunker, but hates running into anyone that specializes in destruction.

Read the bunker guide, it's helpful.   But if you'd rather a 90 second overview:   Don't try to switch between modes.   Get out Flak Cannon and grenade launcher ASAP, then play turret mode immidiately.   That's the dream setup, and it's not worth it to try to linger before going into turret mode to make things "better" by heavy plating or gatling or whatever.    Those are cards you play if you cant play flak cannon, grenade launcher, or turret mode.

Get out Flak Cannon and grenade launcher ASAP, then play turret mode immidiately.

That is very effective, and also super boring.  For the whole rest of the game, you won't draw or play another card, you'll just keep shooting stuff with the ones you have out.  Not too fun, until you either lose your Mode card or decide to leave Turret Mode out of sheer boredom. :)

The better bet is to team Bunker with players that can help him get cards in play, Like Adept or for real fun Omnitron-X.  Visionary is good to get his hand started, but Omni putting cards in play while he's in turret is great.

Also if you want a mod for him that makes him play much faster there are quite a few, my favorite is adding a destruction ability to his mode cards.  I have it written down in my box, but I believe it goes:

Upgrade mode: when you destroy it at the start of your turn you can play an equip from hand or pull an equip from your deck to your hand.

Recharge Mode:  When you destroy it at the start of your turn you can put another mode card in play from your hand or trash.

Turret Mode:  When you destroy it at the start of your turn you may put it back in your hand instead of the trash.

Techarge to Upgrade to Turret plays a lot faster, and upgrade can be played and destroyed just to pull an equip you really need.  It dones't make him that much more powerful, but it feels faster and more fun.

My two favorite characters in the game seem to be really unpopular here.

I love Argent Adept more than any other character in the game. I love his flexibility. He's bad against quicker villains like Iron Legacy (who in my experience will generally kill you if you have to take the time for a slow ramp-up), but against long-haul fights like The Ennead or Akash'bhuta, he winds up with a ton of options. I occasionally wish he had a little more direct damage and wasn't such a profoundly support-oriented character, but it's worth it for the ability to keep other heroes alive and in the game, and to not get stuck doing the same thing turn after turn.

Speaking of which… Bunker's probably my second favorite character, but I never seem to use Mode cards. There always seems to be an upgrade or option in my hand that I want to play, so I never go fully into focused damage.

And I love Unity. She can be more hit-or-miss than others — she's REALLY draw-dependent, and I've certainly had games where she barely goes anywhere. But I've actually had less luck with her variant card, which seems designed to fix that problem. 

The only character I've entirely given up on is Mister Fixer. Not because he's broken, but because he's boring. For any given villain, there's generally one useful style and one useful weapon, and once I have those, it's just plink, plink, plink, tiny bits of predictable damage, and hoping for a Grease Gun to do something that will actually be useful to fellow players. At least when Unity or Bunker or AA go wrong, I feel like it's a matter of card luck, and that the next game might be better. With Mister Fixer, it never feels like "This game would have been terrific if I'd gotten to X card," it just feels like "Well, I peaked four turns in, might as well doze through the rest of the game."

Have you tried the "Stance-Shifting Master" variant for Fixer?  That might help your issue, there...

Have you tried the "Stance-Shifting Master" variant for Fixer?

Available here.

The toughest for me to play are:

Fanatic - She has a  lot of very situational cards.  I end up with a handful of "not useful here".  And damage reduction with no Absolution makes her cry sad angel tears.

Expatriette - Her ammo is very often just a passing phase.  A minor boost to one attack and never seen again.  The rest of her cards are often "play for later" if she has the shotgun or automatic rifle, only to get tossed from an equipment wipe.

I'd say Mr. Fixer, but I'm pretty good with him.  My strategy for him is:  Tools: Use Pipe Wrench, Dual Crowbars, or Jack Handle.  Rest are very situational.  Styles: Use Grease Monkey Fist or Driving Mantis.  Alternating Tiger Claw is situational, Riviting Crane is VERY situational.  Other cards:  Grease Gun for emergencies (off-turn plays can be awesome!, Scrap Yard for after equipment destruction, Charge and Overdrive as needed.  Avoid Bloody Knuckles unless you are immune to damage.  With any damage booster, Mr. Fixer can do amazing.  And an off-turn Overdrive is sweet.

Grease Gun for emergencies (off-turn plays can be awesome!, Scrap Yard for after equipment destruction, Charge and Overdrive as needed.  Avoid Bloody Knuckles unless you are immune to damage.  With any damage booster, Mr. Fixer can do amazing.  And an off-turn Overdrive is sweet.

I love Expat/Fixer/Adept.  Just make Adept last.

If you get speed loading ammo is great, don't worry about putting it on top, just use it and wait for a salvage yard.  Mr. Fixer can tank, kill important villains through DR, deal non Melee/projectile damage and use grease gun.

Adept lets you play Grease gun out of turn, as well as overdrive and Salvage Yard (another overdrive out of turn option) and save Vernal Sonata for after a salvage yard hits the trash.  Out of Turn Unload is really fun as well, esp. if you have Pride and Prejudice out, then you get to play a card too.  (double unload anyone?)

If Expat or Fixer die?  Fixer puts an equip into play from the trash (awesome for Expat), and Expat lets Fixer do a seperate instance of damage if he uses a power, it gets modified by tools just like his other damage, like a second strike, only projectile.  They really work great together.

It is a lot of fun, even more so with a Legacy up front to make everyone super happy.

As Expat you really need to know what destruction you are facing in the villain and Enviro decks.  I'm playing her in the Kismet/Tomb match on the forums right now, and knowing that the only destruction is Kismet's destroy (H) equips I am throwing out guns I don't need to eat destruction for my better guns (and the team), I only really need to keep the Assault rifle out.  The only time I find Expat bad is if you only get a Submachine Gun or a pistol for guns early with no damage boosts, or no guns at all.  That really stinks.  An early Shotgun is awesome, or an Assault rifle with +1 damage.

I wish Adept had just a couple more hp.  It's all too easy for him to get stuck on the hero-with-the-least-hp train to Deadsville.

pssh. Please. Harp + Supertonic (plus other powers too! Bonus!) every turn and you'll have the highest before you know it.

Bunker. I never get any of his good cards, which is a very small set, IMO. Oh, nice, I get an EQ that can heal me 2 hp. Meanwhile, Tempest is healing everyone 2. Or AA is healing 5 people 1. Or OX is healing 3 people 1. Oh, I get to deal almost no damage, but I can draw an extra card. Pffft. Or he works and he's boring.

Fanatic is another one I just don't grok. Occasionally she's useful, but I get Holy Nova when my teammates are stacked. Or, the villains are all damage taken -1 while I can't get Absolution. Just too many cards only helpful in limited situations and they never seem to match the actual game situation, for me.

I'm also not fond of the Visionary. Too often I'm stuck seeing almost the same card(s) as option(s) to put on top/bottom. Or she gets going too late and putting things on the bottom only delays them one or two turns and makes those turns extra-brutal.

Overall, I prefer dealing damage, I guess.

Arathorn

I forgot I have real trouble with Absolute Zero.  My draws are usually:

Get the card that lets me get modules from the trash instead of the one that gets it from the deck and maybe one module (and then duplicates for most of the game)

Get both modules early on, then the next 10 cards all allow me to get those two modules or are copies.

If I see a Cryo chamber or the amplifier card, I am really lucky.  

Legacy bores the hell out of me.  I've only ever played him in solitaire mode; I wouldn't dare run him as my only hero in a game, because my turns would all just be "play Fortitude, make everyone else awesome, pass; play Superhuman Durability, make everyone else awesome, pass; play Surge of Strength which will never do anything for me, pass; take 3 damage so everyone else is immune, then make myself immune to something with Next Evolution so I don't instantly die, then Take Down so the villain doesn't kill us all, oh wait did we already win, cool I guess".  Very useful to everyone else, but very dull to me.  Legs is obviously made for the benefit of the kind of player whose definition of "fun" is "something all my buddies are having and I'm just glad to be included".  Not being that player, he's easily my least favorite by far of the guys I've played so far.  (Young Legacy might be somewhat more fun, but is still stuck with a rather substandard deck IMO.)

I also have a fair degree of dissatisfaction with Haka.  The Taiaha is too good not to use, but very boring once it's out.  The Hakas all call for me to discard cards, which I generally don't like doing, and don't provide very compelling bonuses in exchange for all those cards (Haka of Restoration in particular is a really poor rate of return).  And I have an unfortunate history with Punish the Weak; my first game with him, against Warlord Voss, it seemed like a great idea to be able to Crush those minions as fast as they came out...but then I got the Taiaha, no longer needed the bonus, and couldn't spare a turn's Power to get rid of PtW, so it just made my second Taiaha bonk on Voss weaker, with no tangible benefit anymore.  Since then, I've never wanted to play PtW, and Dominion is also not the most compelling card, since half the time the Environment isn't a big enough factor to make it worth your card play.  The only one of Haka's cards I really DO like is Savage Mana, which was hugely instrumental in the Voss game and looks equally powerful against nearly all of the really strong villains (and Omnitron who isn't so much), such as the Chairman, the Matriarch, and Citizen Dawn.  (Disclaimer; I don't so much know about Iron Legacy.)

Wraith frustrated me a little in my very first game, but I think I'm basically over it; she now bores me a little but doesn't really bother me.  Argent Adept is likely to frustrate me, but I haven't tried him yet so I don't know for sure.  Bunker is probably the character who frustrates me the most out of those I actually willingly play; he always has more options than he can use, I almost never get to use his innate Power, and having to choose among Modes is often a nuisance.  I want to play more cards, use more Powers, AND draw more cards, not give up two of those options to slightly improve the third.  It can be awesome when it works, but it seems most of the time I'm just not there.

Oh, and Expat gets the final "argh" from me, just because she has the innate Power that I wish EVERY character had, and on her it's pathetic because half her cards are one-shot Ammo that you don't really need because your guns are effective enough on their own.  I haven't given up on her by any means, but she's a bit lacking IMO.  It's just a pet peeve that nobody else gets the Power to play extra cards, when it's kind of wasted on her.

Envisioner your posts are great.

You seem frustrated when you can't get a hero set up, but once you do they bore you.

My friends who play Legacy are poor at strategy but want to be important in the game, they just don't want it to be hard to be valuable.

It takes a while to get that "I want to have this hero do everything they can" thing out of your system.  The problem is when they really get set up like that, the match either ends right away or it is just boring cause there is nothing more for you to do.

The fun for me is trying to fit what I have in my hand into what is going on in the fight, probably why I like Fanatic and Expat and Visionary so much, they can fit so many situations, but they rarely outshine other heroes.  Visionary especially, with her you have to be aware of what everyone else is doing, who needs a card to play, when you need to stack the deck, and waht combos are available with what cards and heroes.

Have you tried Tachyon much?  She is great for not requiring too much setup, having lots of versatility and being able to throw down some great damage.

Fun fact: Dominion is not limited, and a lot of environment cards destroy themselves. So often this leads to drawing an extra 2 or 3 cards each round without any -- or much -- extra effort. Also, Mere > Taiaha. The extra card draw is really helpful. Another thing Punish the Weak is good for is using Rampage; it lowers the damage dealt to HEROES by 1 as well, and since you can choose the order you hit the targets in, you can kill the villain target with the lowest, then damage another -- which is then the target with the lowest -- and kill it, then damage another -- which is then the lowest -- and kill it, wiping out ALL the targets all the way up to the villain. Which does a LOT of good if you have Savage Mana out.

Rampage auto kills targets when Punish the Weak is in play? Where does it say that?

I can't tell whether you're being sarcastic.  If not, "thanks".  If so, "shrug; I'm a complex fellow".

You seem frustrated when you can't get a hero set up, but once you do they bore you.

Kinda yeah.  My favorite characters so far have been Absolute Zero, Tachyon, Visionary, and if I don't mind being a little bored, Ra.  (It helps that I'm a HUGE fan of Egyptian flavor.)  Tachyon is just tons of fun because she lets you play so many extra cards, and doesn't rely on an always-the-same Power to deal her damage.  Bunker plays somewhat similarly to Zero, but is just somehow less satisfying about it; I wish Zero had more than two Modules to choose from, but overall I find him quite satisfying.  Visi is kind of a support character, but much more fun about it than Legs IMO.  And Ra is painfully straightforward, but just tons of fun.  I've only played one game as Mr. Fixer but he seems to have promise as well, and I'm looking forward to trying out Nightmist and Unity.

It takes a while to get that "I want to have this hero do everything they can" thing out of your system.  The problem is when they really get set up like that, the match either ends right away or it is just boring cause there is nothing more for you to do.

The game is most fun when both the hero and villain teams are firing on all cylinders.  It's awesome when you get the chance to take your game Up to Eleven; it's even more awesome when you need to do exactly that.

Visionary especially, with her you have to be aware of what everyone else is doing, who needs a card to play, when you need to stack the deck, and waht combos are available with what cards and heroes.

It came up a while back that there's some question about how far you should be able to go in communicating with other players.  Is it considered "kosher" to show them the cards in your hand?  Somebody I spoke to seemed to think that was going too far.  I mean, it is a co-op game, and you can always SAY you have a card in your hand, and there's no good reason to lie about it, but…meh, I'm probably overthinking this.  (Occupational hazard.)

Have you tried Tachyon much?

Love at first sight.  :D  I'm actually forcibly taking a little break from her so as not to completely burn out.  She was my favorite character until I tried Absolute Zero, and might remain a favorite character longer than he does, since he does contain the potential to have a frustratingly bad draw.

no, but it's dealing 6 melee damage to the non-hero target with the lowest HP. It's highly likely that it will kill it. Especially since the example given earlier was Voss. Even with the guards out AND on advanced mode, a PtW-buffed rampage will wipe out all of the minions and hit Voss for 5.

You can be as cooperative as you like in the game, it is not against the rules to share your entire hand to your allies in the least. Infact it's best if everyone knows some of the cards in players hands. That way someone may spot an awesome combo that would of been missed if people kept to themselves.

If you are newer to the game, or are playing with less experiened players I'd suggest laying your cards out on the table.  If people resist tel ling each other what to play it is a great way to learn to interact with the other heroes.  We started playing that way, and it has stuck for most people I play with.  It also makes it easier to sort your cards if you are playing Haka, Bunker, Nightmist or Tempest, or if you have a TLT.  It also works great for players like Adept and Visionary so you can just look quickly at others hands and decide what to do.

There's nothing worse than asking people who wants to play a card, and then trying to sort out who should play a card, I'd rather look around and then decide myself who to let play a card, or in Vis's case, who to give cards to.  

Now if you have someone that just informs people what they should be doing all the time then it won't work, it just gets annoying.

My group has always played with our cards on the table.  We actually find it incredibly rude when someone hides their hand from everyone else.
 

As for the Legacy-hate going on, I'm happy to hear that I fill a niche that a lot of people just don't.  I love being able to boost up my teammates with Legacy.  I personally find the "Legacy is for players who are just happy to be included" post to be really harsh.  I'm the guy that got my entire group into Sentinels of the Multiverse, and we play with my cards practically every time we get together.

I'm happy to play a lot of other heroes, but no one else scratches my team itch like Legacy.  It's incredibly satisfying seeing how much I contribute every turn regardless of hand.  There are times that his buffs can hinder certain heroes that suffer from self-damage effects, but his utility is amazing.  I remember fondly a game against Iron Legacy where Legacy was sucking up five damage hits around the table with Superhuman Durability/Fortitude/Lead From The Front set up (yes, in that order, so I got both DR effects).  Each five damage hit was only one damage for Legacy.  I definitely felt active and awesome that game.

I've not had much luck with Fixer or Expatriette.  I never seem to draw the right cards, and we always seem to be up against a villain where card accelleration is just more useful on another hero.  I have friends that get remarkable hands with those characters quite consistently, but I never seem to get what I need to have an enjoyable experience with them.

I've always played the game with the mentality of "it's a co-operative game, so there's no reason to hide your cards from the other player(s)". We just lay our cards out on the table, obviously keeping the hand separate from the cards in play (I lay mine out in two rows - the row nearest me is my hand, the one slightly further away is my stuff in play, while the character card goes to the left of that and has the hp dice beside it, the deck is to the left of my hand, and the discard pile to the left of the deck). It's handy to be able to see what the other heroes have got available, especially if you're someone who can let someone else play a card or whatever :).

Our home group does play with "Closed hands" though we often talk about plans and strategy:  "I've got something to take care of the Kraken--don't bother hitting him this turn."  "Okay, that frees me up to deal with the minions."

Okay yeah, that might have been going a bit overboard.  I didn't mean it to be derogatory per se; such players do exist and it's good to have a character they can use.  But I tend to speak overly-bluntly, so apologies if I bruised any feelings.

There are times that his buffs can hinder certain heroes that suffer from self-damage effects

Lots of such times, I have found.  Nearly all of my favorite characters have at least one self-damage effect (Ra, Tachyon, and above all Absolute Zero being the notable examples).  Indeed, if I read the new ruling about "either take X damage or this card is destroyed" correctly, if Ra puts down Solar Flare after Legacy has Galvanized, he can't possibly keep Solar Flare in play more than one turn…because when he tries to have it deal him 4 damage, it instead deals him 6 damage, and then destroys itself because he didn't take 4 damage.

I remember fondly a game against Iron Legacy where Legacy was sucking up five damage hits around the table with Superhuman Durability/Fortitude/Lead From The Front set up (yes, in that order, so I got both DR effects).  Each five damage hit was only one damage for Legacy.

Okay, yeah, THAT does sound cool.  But it's his deck, not his power, and not all of his deck; a lot of his cards are just more of the same, and it can get pretty redundant.  (Would it have killed them to make one character whose version of Fortitude/Heavy Plating/Otherworldly Resilience wasn't Limited, just so that he could really get the "bulletproof" flavor across good?)  I think both of the promo Legacy's, especially young Paulette (possibly-broken though she is) would likely be more my speed than the normal one, but ultimately they're still stuck with a lot of redundancy and low-power effects (the strictly worse Bolster Allies as compared to Tachyon's Fleet of Foot really bothers me).

Inspiring Presence, Heroic Intervention and Take Down are game-winning cards. I really can't agree that Legacy has a weak deck. Quite the contrary.

Lots of such times, I have found.  Nearly all of my favorite characters have at least one self-damage effect (Ra, Tachyon, and above all Absolute Zero being the notable examples).  Indeed, if I read the new ruling about "either take X damage or this card is destroyed" correctly, if Ra puts down Solar Flare after Legacy has Galvanized, he can't possibly keep Solar Flare in play more than one turn...because when he tries to have it deal him 4 damage, it instead deals him 6 damage, and then destroys itself because he didn't take 4 damage.

The way that works now is that you have to take some damage from it, not the exact amount.  I too was initially thinking Legacy would ruin it, but the clarification came and all is well, just take at least 1 point of damage (any kind works) from the solar flare card and you get to keep it.  If you are immune to fire and dealing all fire damage then you can't keep it. (unless you have TtE on you)

The hero you would be looking for is The Scholar.

There are a lot of cards that a better than other cards, it depends on how the individual deck works deck itself works.

...I now kind of want to compile a list of cards which are strictly better than other cards, across every deck, just because...

Here, i'll help get started.

Ball Lightning is better than Back Fist Strike, same damage but destroys 2 ongoings.

Thokk is better than Elbow Smash, same damage but allows a cards draw.

Absolution is better than Blazing Tornado/Flak Cannon/Razor Ordinace, same damage but heals when enters play and can choose out of 3 types of damage.

Inspiring Presence is better than Imbued Fire, heals when enters play and doesn't risk increasing non-hero damage.

Divine Focus is better than Gatling Gun, as Divine Focus can do damage every turn.

Psychic Maelstorm is better than Accelerated Assualt, 1 extra point of damage.

Know When to Hold Fast is better than Prayer of Desperation, allows 5 cards to be drawn no matter what where PoD only equals that if 1 cards is in hand and is only better when having an empty hand.

Grevious Hailstorm is better than Submachine Gun, does an extra point of damage.

Impromtu Invention is better than every other search card in the game.

Trust Fund is better than Quick Insight, has 1 extra card to be drawn but still discards the same amount.

Assualt Rifle is better than Throwing Knives/Grenade Laucher, deals more damage to the same amount of targets.

That's a good start, right?

Divine Focus vs. Grenade Launcher is a bit trickier, because Gatling has no health cost and can target anything, that's the most different of the cards listed.  I'd put impale in that category as well, it has no cost and therefore is better than Gatling, but again once per round and you only target it once. 

I'd say Don't Dismiss Anything > Scrap Yard > Reclaim from the Deep > Vernal Sonata for team cards from the trash recovery cards.

I'd go Displaced Armory > Decomissioned Hardware = Mocular realignment > Robot Reclamation for self card recovery from the trash.

Actually we should probably start a new thread to do this.

also, the throwing knives/guns is a bit trickier due to the ammo (one-time use) and the micro-targeting computer.

Gatling Gun is not STRICTLY inferior, as it doesn't require you you to take damage for the exact same damage/turn/card ratio.

However, that is including other cards, not just side by side comparison of the individual cards.

Well think of it like this, even if you choose not to take damage and get rid of it, even in a 3 player game that is 5 cards you can discard and do damage, something Gatling Gun would take 5 rounds to accomplish. I still consider doing 10 damage in a round versus 10 damage over 5 rounds better.And at a cost of 4 HP, it's not really that bad of a price.

Modular Realignment will deal AZ 2 points of damage, since it is comparison of cards and not the whole deck. Thus it would be the worst of the retrieval cards. As for Robot Reclamation, it gets multiple cards back on top of the deck, so i'm not really sure that is worse than any as it is fairly unique.

Everything is better than ammo, since ammo does nothing on its own.

Really, we're going to do this? Cards from one deck are not to be compared to cards from another deck because they are not compatible. A 5 point damage card in one deck is not as useful as a "play 2 cards now" card in another deck, each deck is individual and has individual needs.

The problem is that damage can be good.  Cards still have to exist inside of the deck they are in. Modular can pull a module and that changes the equation as soon as it gets there.  The options with that damage and what AZ can bring into play I felt balanced out to roughly no change and so put it equal to Bunkers, since both put the card into play.  

It is going to be tough to balance the cards keeping in mind the deck they come from, to a certain extent.  We assume with cards pulling equipment that there is stuff to pull, AZ's realignment can put a module into play before dealing AZ damage, so you have to consider what he just put in play to be a part of the equation, because it is part of the card.  But giving Gatling or Flak Cannon credit for the possibility that Turret mode is boosting damage or Throwing knives having micro is too far.

The problem with Reclamation is the cards go to the top of the deck, the others put them into play.

Spoil sport!

I do agree, each card wasn't meant to be balanced with other cards that are similar, however the entire deck is considered when making cards similar. Sure one card is certainly better than another, but their deck as a whole is fairly close in terms of effectiveness. I wouldn't go as far as saying that I dislike a card, just because it doesn't do what a sister card does.

Though I must admit that it is quite fun comparing two cards that are nearly the same, but than tossing in other cards to see how each one changes to where they aren't similar anymore.

Yeah, very much so.

I knew what you were doing because you and I have discussed this before, but I fear others would take you seriously.

It's not that Legacy's deck is weak; I just find it boring.  It certainly has some weak cards; even the ones you name aren't always useful (except Inspiring Presence).  Voluntarily taking damage isn't my favorite thing to do, and unlike most of the other characters who do it, Legacy isn't setting up a combo, he's just getting beat on in order to protect other heroes.  Which is likely to end up with him being dead, and then me having almost nothing to do during his turn.  Not a playstyle I enjoy, and so I'm on topic for the thread in dissing him.  I consider him a great hero for someone else to play, but terrible to take myself.  Outside of a solitaire or 2P game where I'm playing multiple Heroes, you'd pretty much have to threaten me with physical harm to get me to play Legs as my only Hero.

And Mind Spike.

Divine Focus is better than Gatling Gun, as Divine Focus can do damage every turn.

Gatling Gun always does damage every turn.

Psychic Maelstorm is better than Accelerated Assualt, 1 extra point of damage.

Hell, unless you need to damage a hero target, Psychic Maelstrom is better than Cerebral Hemorrhage, and they're in the same deck!

Impromtu Invention is better than every other search card in the game.

FTFY.  XD

Every turn and on each of Bunker's turns are not the same thing.

Disagree. Comparing them is perfectly fine. Drawing conclusions from those comparison is totally different.

Like Psychic Maelstorm vs Accelerated Assualt, AA is a Burst card so comparing which is better is impossible without taking the whole deck into account. Comparing what they directly do is fine. Also disagree too that "Psychic Maelstrom is better than Cerebral Hemorrhage", too many times you don't want to hit the environment or one of the Villains targets.

My only issue with similar cards is when they don't feel different enough so you get reminded of the other one. For example, search cards. OTOH, when cards feel different I'm fine with them. The example mentioned here for me is Bolster Allies vs Fleet of Foot. I'll always play Fleet… ASAP, Bolster Allies has a trade off of whatever I'm not playing.

In this sense (thread related), I find Bunker's mode frustrating when compared to other Heroes. Utility Belt plus Micro Targeting is better than Turret Mode, Mist Form than Recharge, several OmniX cards than Upgrade. And you don't get a plus for destroying them.

Btw, Mere vs Truth Seeker, FIGHT!

Mere, on the grounds that The Scholar has access to a better damage-dealing power with his elementals, as well as a better card-getting power with Know When to Hold Fast. On the other hand, Haka's only other powers are Crush (strictly worse) and Taiaha, which does more damage but doesn't draw a card, so it has its own merits as well.

Hm.  that interpretation of the card occurred to me, but I assumed I had to be reading it wrong.  Why exactly does Fanatic get to deal damage on other people's turns?

"At the start of every turn"

It would say "at the start of Fanatic's turn" if it only triggered on her turn.

...

I agree that targetted attacks have great value, Cerebral Hemmorage doesn't have the raw damage potential of Maelstrom, but with a Mantis/Fixer, or a sonic mine you want Hemmorage.

That's one of the reasons I think Divine Focus vs. Gatling is a situational win either way.  You can't finish off a low health target with Divine Focus, but you can discard your hand to jack up whatever has the highest health.

Impromptu invention is the best card in the game.  The only thing better than Impromptu invention is two of them.

How do we score Burst cards value in this, it is a part of the card that after being played it has value in the trash.

Oh come on, the game is too tactical to consider a card the best. Even cards like Grease Gun, Ground Pound and Hypersonic assault have cases where it varies which is the best.

Burst is a conditional "+1" damage that can ramp up to a +3 that is factored into Barrage. It would also be a +3 each time it adds a meaningful target to Sonic Vortex but usually you have spare to really account it for it.

Nope. [Officially Redacted] is the best card in the game.

Anything in Tempest's deck > than anything in any other hero's deck.  At least until I get finished designing a custom Nightcrawler ripoff character.

Impromptu is the best card because you draw a card, play a card from your deck, and then get your card play back.

So it is essentially  a free equip from your deck to the field.

What other card can give you a free card in play while replacing itself and giving back your play phase?  That last part is the big part, because you can still play any other card.  It is the best of the free play cards, and that is why it is the best card in the game.  Fleet of foot is the only one that challenges it, but a card in play is worth a lot more than more in your hand, esp. when you pick the card from your deck.  The reason I asked about Burst is the potential of the burst aspect of Fleet of Foot, which might make it a closer competition with Impromptu.

It's similar to Greatest Legacy's Power, you get something for free, and can still use another power.  That would be the best power (unless you count Adepts power chains)

lol no. That's just false. I mean, I GUESS you wouldn't KNOW that seeing as a certain hero hasn't come out yet, but a lot of their cards are straight up better than anything in Tempest's deck. [Officially Redacted], for one. And one that's just better than either the Fortitude knockoff or the elemental shield thing. A single-damage one-shot that does better damage than Lightning Slash. Several multi-target oneshots. An 8-hp-or-fewer auto-kill one-shot. Better, more reliable healing than Cleansing Downpour. None of those pesky self-damage increases, and just as much -- if not more -- damage and card draw. Granted, they can't do ongoing destruction, but still.

Dude.  He talks to an eel.

Also, though you may be a part of the special secret cabal known as "play testers", to the rest of us that is just speculation and rumor.  Awesome speculation and rumor, but still speculation and rumor. 

I know. GtG have apparently fallen off the map recently, so I have to spread hype somehow.

Unfortunately, McBehrer, you're doing it by talking about cards you aren't supposed to talk about, even giving a specific card name. Given we don't have final versions of these cards, that's a really bad idea, as we don't know what they're going to end up being.

That wasn't really the sense in which I was asking "why".  It's really strange for anything to be happening on EVERY single turn of the game.  My first instinct on seeing it was to assume it had to be a mistake.  (Then again, Pillars of Hercules in the Atlantis enviro deck made sense to me.)

Lots of things happen every turn, Blade's backlash field can trigger every turn, Spite's damage reduction happens every turn, Positive Energy Field happens every time a card is played.

it's not unusual in the multiverse.

"Can", not "does".  "The first time something happens each turn, do X" is not the same as "Do X every single turn no matter what".  The former does not feel like it compares in any way to "Do X on each of your turns", nor to the normal "play a card on your turn", "use a power on your turn", and "draw a card on your turn".  You normally aren't doing things on the turns of other heroes, nor on the environment turn unless they're things created by environment cards, nor on the villain turn unless they're on villain cards.  It's different for the villains because they're going up against all of you; you expect them to sometimes need to match the heroes blow for blow.  But Divine Focus is one of Fanatic's cards, so the obvious assumpion is that it's only going to act on Fanatic's turn.

Spite's damage reduction happens every turn

I don't know him, but again, damage reduction is a reactive way for the villain to stay in the game, it isn't comparable to a hero doing things when it isn't their own turn (or that of an Incap hero who's "pinging" them).

Vengeance isn't released, so it isn't in the game.  It may be in playtesting, but that isn't in the game until it is released, so as of now anything Redacted isn't.

Do appreciate the hype though.

Sure, fine, but it doesn't deal damage and it doesn't prevent damage and ultimately the game is won by dealing damage. So 'best' is bold without some context to it, agree it's the best search card. A deck full of Lighting Slash might win you a game while one with Improptu Invention won't, still think that adding Improptu Invention to any deck makes it better but that holds true to a lot of cards. In that sense I think Chrono-Ranger equip search card comes close since it also searches from discard and deals a damage but doesn't draws nor plays an extra card.

I am beginning to grow bored with the Visionary.  I liked her a lot at first; she has a lot of very fun options, but too many of her cards either shut the villain down completely or do nothing at all (Precognition and Suggestion), plus she has a lot of rather silly combo action (Wrest the Ether and Twist the Mind can interact with other cards in strange and wrong-feeling ways).  I'm going to at least give her a good long wrest.

I've played Unity only once, but that was enough for me to put her on the list of heroes who are likely to frustrate me a LOT.  If she doesn't get some help, playing her golems is just too hard; she seems even more likely than AZ to have large numbers of turns in which "draw two cards and pass" is her best option, because she either has no golems or nothing but golems, and none of the heroes has an Equipment they can spare.

Not really.  Not sure whether you mean Expect Everything or Flesh to Iron, but either way, they aren't the same card as Fortitude or Heavy Plating, only not Limited, which is what I was interested in.  Heck, Bunker is supposed to be Indestructible, and he doesn't seem terribly powerful; maybe I'll just houserule that HP isn't Limited after all.  (Legs and Tempest would clearly break in half if that were done for them, which is too bad since they both have Ongoings and Bunker's is at least an Equipment, so different things will destroy it.)

Still, the Scholar does kind of grant my wish for a character whose shtick is healing, though I'd still like to see one who heals others.

GtG has already said that there won’t be a dedicated healer. They don’t want a hero that you need to bring like in MMOs.

G> have said in the past that they don't want to make a hero who specializes in healing others because then there would be no reason to ever not have that hero in your party. We might see variations with heroes who have healing abilities, but we're probably not going to have a hero whose revolves strictly around healing other party members.

You could pretty much say that about Legacy now, or maybe Visionary.  Both are very support-oriented characters who do huge things to the win percentage of a team they're included on.  A healer might actually be less useful than them, because when a hero is Incapacitated, sometimes their effect is more beneficial than what they could actually do on their own (not often, this is true, but it sure felt like Unity with a Tachy-Off letting her play Golems for free, right before her turn, was more powerful than Unity and normal Tachyon put together).

I can pretty much agree with Visionary. With the exception of maybe the Dreamer, there isn't a villain I'd shy away from taking her against. Legacy's damage boosts can be harmful if the heroes are doing damage to themselves either through their deck's own mechanics or the Villain. But the roles that Legacy and Visionary play in a group can be replicated by characters like the Adept and even Nightmist and Chrono Ranger to a lesser degree.

If you have a straight up healer though, unless you have other healer characters to fill in that niche, they'll probably end up allowing a party to dominate a villain and the percentage boards more than Legacy and Nightmist do right now.

There are also quite a few heroes with mechanics that require you to choose whether or not dealing damage to yourself is worth the effect of whatever card or power they're using. A character who has amazing healing powers could potentially undercut the danger of self damage heroes and make them way overpowered.

In case anyone's interested (and mostly because I think this is very informative around the game's design, characters, etc.), here's Christopher's post on this.

Oh hey, Medico! I remember him!

...

*snicker*

Back on topic, I'm adding Mr. Fixer to my list of frustrating heroes, though he's not at the top.  He just has to jump through so many hoops trying to get any traction at all, and the fact that he can only keep one Style and one Tool out means he ends up with a lot of cards sitting in his hand.  All that effort on a hero like Nightmist or Absolute Zero pays off in gigantic megablasts, whereas he has to go through all that just to deal a couple of damage a turn, albeit that it's frequently irreducible, or can make others so.  He's not bad per se, but there are a lot of situations in which he just doesn't cut the mustard.

I've now played the Argent Adept, and he frustrates me.  I've spoken a lot elsewhere about why.

Nightmist also frustrates me, but not in a way that makes me not want to play her.  She's easily one of my favorite heroes, but mentally exhausting.  She and the Adept are the two heroes where, after playing one of them, I don't want to play again for a while because my brain is just burned out.

Fixer is gradually growing on me, but my criticism of him does still tend to stand.

Just give it a little while; after a bit, you'll get used to their mechanics and be able to play them easily. Once you get used to knowing which instruments can be used with which musics, and what musics there are (2 copies each of 3 melodies, harmonies, and rhythms; each has one offensive, one defensive, and one utilitarian) it gets a lot easier to do.

I can't believe I've never chimed in on this thread.

Bunker is definitely my most frustrating. I really really want to like him. I go out of my way to play him. But I just don't get him. I like to think I'm an above average strategic thinker, and I still struggle putting his flow together in my mind and on the table. I've seen him do very cool things, just never in the many times he's been in front of me. Le sigh.

For Bunker -- quite contrary to Argent Adept -- the important thing is to get away from trying to do everything. He has a lot of options, but if you try and do ALL of them, you probably won't be ABLE to (unless you get lucky, or plan really well). While sitting and charging an Omni-Cannon can be really tempting, the constant chip damage you can get from a Flak Cannon, Grenade Launcher, and/or Gatling Gun really adds up over time. Also, don't underestimate Recharge Mode. It allows you to draw 3 CARDS A TURN, while also giving you an extra DR, allowing you to soak up lots of damage. Use it in conjunction with Omni-cannon and/or Gatling Gun to avoid being completely inactive, and then you can just pop out of it when you have lots of cards in your hand, then go Upgrade to get them all out and Turret to start blowing everything up.

Also, the Aux. Power Units are VERY HELPFUL. Use them often, and don't be afraid to use their draw 3 power. You can always use Recommissioned Hardware to get them back, if need be.

We've got a sexy new crop of heroes to play ("we" being the non-playtester non-preorderers of the general public, who had to wait for Vengeance to be generally available), so I think some of these old "what hero do you X" threads deserve bumping.  Today I got to try out a Vengeance hero for the first time, and I picked Parse (the other player took Naturalist, and we each also had an earlier hero, Ra for him and Omnitron-X for me).  I have to say, I was not impressed.

Granted, it's partially my own fault.  We were playing against Ambuscade who's historically been very pathetic, and I didn't want to faceroll him completely, so when Toxic Seaweed came out on the first round, I discarded Parse's hand, having not played a couple of cards that let you mess with the villain deck.  (I did first play Buffer Overflow, which lets you cancel a villain card play and force them to play a different card in its place.)  So between having skipped playing some of my more applicable cards and having discarded four of them, I was perhaps not getting the full Parse experience.  But I did read the cards even if I didn't play them, and so unless they prove a lot more effective in practice than they appeared to be initially, I find that they don't seem that great.  Lots of things require you to discard cards, and not much lets you draw them (there is one rather decent Power card that lets you draw every turn, but it requires you to not be shooting arrows at things).

The big issue I had with Parse is that she seems to be a lot like Mr. Fixer in a way - most of her cards are "magic bullets" which exist only to solve particular problems, but not all such problems are covered, and if you draw the wrong such card for the situation it's likely rather useless.  Parse is pretty good at dealing irreducible damage...but not all villains use heavy DR.  She can mess with the villain deck, but that isn't always incredibly helpful, though certainly it can decide a few games all by itself.  She has several ways of destroying Ongoings or Environment cards, but again, not everyg ame has Ongoing cards and the Environment isn't always a problem.  What she doesn't have very much of, other than her base power, is effects that are always useful; the raw effectiveness you get from heroes like Tempest and Bunker, who may not specialize in much but can pretty much always contribute somehow, seems likely to be a more sporadic experience with Parse.  If what the heroes need is for THAT TO DIE RIGHT NOW, about the best she's often able to do is plink for 2; she has the potential to offer some nice boosts, but they can be hard to string together, and it seems like very often she will want to spend her turn drawing 2 in order to have more options - while a hero like Wraith or Chrono-Ranger can have lots of options and still play every turn.

I dunno, I didn't hate her, I wasn't really even frustrated per se, but I definitely wasn't blown away.  (I ended up liking the Naturalist a lot more, even from across the table, and am very eager to play him myself.)  I wonder how long it's going to be before a "Fix Parse!" thread turns up.  Maybe my experience was atypical?  I'm not saying she's bad in the abstract, but I feel like she has a lot of potential to disappoint players, just as Fixer often can, even if they're both occasionally amazing.

Cards that allow draws:

Buffer Overflow when used/destroyed (2 copies)

Gauge when used (2 copies)

Impossible Shot (3 copies)

Quick Calculation choice 2 of 3 cards into hand (3 copies)

Recompile; requires discarding but capable of drawing 6 cards (3 copies)

So you have 13 cards out of 40 that allow draws. That covers a lot of not having the right card in hand. Couple Recompile with Critical Multiplier and you've just given any hero +3 to their next damage. She has options of buffing damage and making it irreducible.

In my experience Parse is quite powerful. She has the deck manipulation of dark visionary while still having a wide array of support and great damage especially in advanced modes where DR is very common. She might be the strongest hero in vengeance (game wise).

Opposite reaction myself.

Naturalist I found to be boring, used all his stances, did some cool stuff, didn't like any of it.  He isn't my cup of tea.

Parse though. . .

Wow.  Talk about a killer.  Of course my first game was vs. Dawn, and it went something like:

1.  Increased all damage to Truth by 1 to start the game.

2.  Turned damage irreducible when Anvil showed up.

3.  Told Dawn that Aurora would not be played and she'd have to pick another card.  Twice.

4.  Actually got the discard to increase damage, discard to play an extra card, and the one where you discard 3 draw 6.  That was when she flipped, when we flipped her back it ended the game really fast.

I'm not a Setback fan, his mechanics are unique and cool but his deck seems to run where you get the right cards and he breaks the game, or you don't, and you wait to get the right cards while your team mates fight without you.

Then I don't like Nightmist either, I find she does that a lot too, and I don't like that style of hero.

KNYFE is fun, she's probably my favorite dedicated damage dealer next to Fanatic.

I'd much rather sacrifice for the team than have the team keep me safe long enough to let me get ridiculous and win the game.

I love the new villains though, esp. Fright Train, he's awesome.

Edwin - I hear you.  After watching her in other games, going through her deck, and playing her once myself, I am still unimpressed by Parse.  She has a solid combo here or there, but in terms of setup-light control, she falls short of the Visionary, and if she does run out a lot of setup, she spends more effort to get overall lesser benefits than The Wraith.

That said, I think I might come to like her because of those things.

There have been plenty of games where I decided that using Wraith or Visionary would make life way too easy, and now, I have a control hero to use in those cases, much as I love Fanatic for being a lower-powered tank (compared to Legacy, Omnitron-X, and now perhaps The Scholar as well).  I know that "less powerful than the alternatives" isn't a great selling point to many, but sometimes, it really is invaluable to me.

My most frustrating, then, is a tie - Tempest, for beng the ultimate Easy Mode Hero (I would argue that Legacy is more powerful, but has more interesting decisions, while Tempest always gets to hit a lot of targets/Environment cards/Ongoings or make all the Heroes draw/heal, or what have you, so the choices have no teeth), and Absolute Zero, for having some cool interactions and awesome flavor, but being hamstrung by (1) 2/5 of his deck being the same two cards so that whole games go by without seeing a single damaging One-Shot, and (2) really only having one setup to work towards, so it feels more static than other setup-heavy heroes like Omni-X or the Adept (or even Nightmist, who always wants the Amulet, but will have a variety of other stuff to support it).

Uh oh, you insulted AZ.  Prepare for the firestorm.

Fanatic can tank, but more than that she smites.  Everything.  All the time.  With Smiting.

If I gave him a burn, should I not prepare for an ice storm?

Cool down you two. It's a slippery slope into another pun thread with all the clowns we have around here.

This part of why I love the game so much, so much variation to fit different play styles.  I REALLY like Argent for the exact reason you dislike him.  I've often said "He's just fiddly enough to be really interesting and fun.  You really need to think about the moving pieces and how you want your turn to go!" (I say that last part with enthusiasm.)

I didn't think I would like KNYFE but I'm playing her more and have enjoyed the fiddliness that she can have.  Though its almost plainful to play certain cards when she doesn't have and bonus damage out.

I love Visionary because I really enjoy controlling a game.  "Sure, you guys go punch stuff, I'm spending my time doing something important."

I haven't played her much, but I'm guessing Parse will be right up there.

They have done a very good job at appealing to multiple play styles.

Who don't I like? Probably Bunker is tops.  Mostly because I think he takes so long to set up, and is suceptible to bad draw.   He does have extra card draw, but outside of Ammo Drop you need to pass up on doing much of anything to get those extra draws.  All of this results in me not getting the cards I want early and not really being able to to settle into the game until its basically already over.

Is it just me or does Buffer Overflow completely shut down the worst card in any villain deck?  "Oh Dawn, heh, I see you wanted to use a Devastating Aruora, hehe, no thank you, we'll just keep all of our stuff, pahahahaha!"

You can completely ignore those "Oh Crap!" moments.  I will say though that I find her much better against standard villains than in a V5 game.  Easier to control one villain than 3-5.

I've committed to learning the Argent (in a hopefully regular series of let's-learn-the-tricky-heroes-together G+ games, if anyone wants to join us) and find that I'm fine initially when the decisions are "okay, I want to do these two things, which instrument do I need to use?" (that'll go quicker when I've got the instruments memorised). The problem for me starts as soon as I do a thing to let me do another thing. I forget where I am and what I've done already, and I just can't "see" all the tricks that make it possible for AA to do all the awesome stuff I see him do with other people.

People try to help by explaining stuff but that just makes me more confused. I'm trying to concentrate and figure things out and all I hear is "Alacritous Subdominant blah blah blah Inspiring Supertonic blah blah someone play a card" - it just doesn't mean anything to me yet.

Is it just me? No-one else seems to have this issue past the first couple of plays. And the longer it goes on, the more I seem to get blocked by the frustration/confusion. He can't be that difficult, especially to an experienced gamer like me. 

It took me a few games to get the hang of the Adept - at first I found him rather complicated with all these many things he can do, plus he got his arse completely handed to him on a plate the first time I played him...but after a little while I started to learn his deck and get the hang of it. I think one of the best games I had with him recently involved TLT and Unity as the other two heroes - TLT let me get hold of (by the end of the game) pretty much my whole deck and then I repeatedly used Alacritous Subdominant and/or Inventive Preparation to let Unity get out loads and loads of bots. Can't remember who we were fighting but we totally kicked their arse :D. If you need a hand explaining anything, Silverleaf, maybe I can help if you have any specific questions? Maybe if enough people try explaining stuff to you, eventually you'll find someone who manages to explain it in a way that your brain decides it prefers, and then you'll "get" the Adept :). Or he just may not be "your kind of character" and you may always find that you prefer other heroes to him.

Since getting hold of Vengeance and being able to pour some proper play time into the new heroes, the Naturalist has so far emerged as my clear favourite - I think I've only lost one game with him and I think that was against the Chairman in which we just couldn't quite stay on top of all the thugs and stuff coming out and so ended up getting beaten. Otherwise, I think I've ended pretty much every game on high/max hp due to healing and/or tanking. And combining Gazelle Form with Environmental Allies when we're somewhere like the Final Wasteland has quickly become one of my preferred tactics >:).

Parse has some control (Buffer is epic) but mostly she has power granting, cards play granting and damage increasing/turning indestructible.

I think she would be best described as an Adept-Fixer Hybrid.

She's less dependant on cards staying in play, but can't do the same benefit every turn like those can.  So I'm a huge fan.

I'm not as much a fan of control, It is really powerful and often makes the game less fun for me, but I love making your team mates rock with situationally appropriate actions.

Oh, man.  I've been playing with assorted variant Bunker decks so long, I had forgotten all about this.

Forget what I said.  Original Bunker is just painful.

Argent is the only hero that after the first time I played him I took his deck and sorted it out and read through every thing.  I just looked for what abilities seem like abilities I would want to use a lot and then looked for what I need to trigger them.  It helped a lot.  Every other hero I've just learned on the fly.

I'm getting better with Ardent, and I can see his combos and have pulled them off a couple of times, but I don't like playing him very much and I'm still not that great with him. Every time I see a Instrument Conjuration all I can think is "I don't know and I don't want to have to know" and I am sure that instrument I draw, I won't have the right song to go with it at the right time. I just finished a game with him, Unity, Scholar, and Omnitron-X versus Kismet, and although I finally got Ardent kind of humming, every time I played an instrument conjuration, I just pulled the first one I saw from the bottom of the deck.

So I don't think it's just you.

I do think having the search cards from the BGG site is helpful - instead of having to go through the deck and compare each card, read a list with all of them and then pick the one you want. I need to get them printed out soon myself.

Just drawing one card off Impossible Shot or Buffer Overflow doesn't count for all that much.  By my count she has 8 cards which allow significant drawing, and only 5 that can produce a "card advantage" of more than +1, and one of those costs your Powers to do it while the other requires already having a decent-sized hand.  Recompile is good if you can manage it, so is Gauge, and Quick Calc is always nice if you have no other use for your play.  But a fifth to an eighth of the deck, while not awful, is certainly not an incredible amount when the hero's ability revolves so much around it.  Comparing her to Visionary and the Wraith, the former of which is the queen of drawing cards and sifting through situational ones to find what she needs, and the latter needs a card to deal damage but can almost guarantee finding such cards with Impromptu and Trust Fund, Parse doesn't seem to be great at this.  But I admit this is all based on one not-quite-average game, so I may well come to a different conclusion later.

The other thing I've got against Parse is that she has to have the absolute most useless incapacitated side of any hero.  Nearly every hero can either grant the survivors a card play or a power, and so those players are still able to make about half as much of the contribution to the game as if they were alive…what does Parse do?  I don't remember what her middle ability was, but I don't think it was impressive, and the other two are "peek at the villain's next card, but don't DO anything about it" and "draw a card".  That last one is pretty much the only choice in most situations, and it's not an immense help most of the time (certainly there are exceptions).  I know I won't plan on taking many chances the next time I play Parse; she makes me want to not die more than any other hero, because once she goes down she might practically just as well have been RFG'ed.  (I will have to play her in the Final Wasteland for exactly this reason, of course; it'll be a nice twist.)

Buffer Overflow definitely has the potential to save your bacon; unfortunately, it was the first card I played in this game, and I completely squandered it.  Ambuscade played Armed and Dangerous, so I went to see what Device he'd pull out.  When it turned out to be the damn Cloak, I Buffered that - which unfortunately meant that he got an extra villain play from Buffer and one from Armed and Dangerous.  One of which was like a three-card chain, and the other was Vanish, so he got the Cloak anyway.  I just gave him an extra play to no profit.  Between that and the fact that he managed to NEVER ONCE pull a Trap, in ten turns and with 3 bonus card plays from Atlantis, it was by far the meanest Ambuscade game I've ever played.  The game ended with four other heroes dead and Ra alive at 1 HP after burning through either 3 or all 4 of his Staves, and that was after Naturalist did a good bit of healing and damage reduction.  It was ridiculous, and entirely my own fault; seeing the villain deck control in Parse's opening hand, I didn't want to use it, because Ambuscade can be pretty dull if you can stop his critical cards from coming.  So I basically let him just about faceroll us so that I wouldn't be facerolling him.  (Even so, he didn't quite manage to make this win either, which means he's the only villain who I've beaten every time I played him.)

For me, Parse is all about Updated Intel and Critical Multiplier.

Updated Intel (Whenever a villain card is played, look at the bottom card of a deck and put it on top or bottom) gives you so much huge control to the game board. Especially against multiple plays of villain cards. Sure you can neuter the villain and keep him from putting out anything crazy, by cycling up from the bottom, but more importantly is the ability to do the same to the heroes and stack the next card draw.

And Critical Multiplier, not being limited, becomes insane given the fact that half her cards require a discard to do anything. 

I wouldn't say there is a hero I 'get least' - I understand the concept and strategy of pretty much all of them.

I dislike playing visionary - she feels so reactive and while occasionally her powers can have a great affect most of the time I feel like its 'choosing between bad and worse' and a lot of sitting around doing only one thing.

Parse feels so much more interactive to me than visionary. I feel like I'm at least doing something (even if it has little actual visible effect, i feel like Ive done /something/ on her turn - where as visionary its PLay, Power draw with very little riders or effects or combos or chains)

I play Adept least, but thats mostly because I don't feel like dealing with the complexity he brings (same for AbZ)

Expatriette is my favorite - I play her far more than any other hero, with Fanatic a close second. Setback is enjoyable and the Sentinels are my favorite among the new heroes (though KNYFE is a close second)

The stuff about Parse and Writhe looking at bottom cards of decks weirds me out, just because it's something that hasn't been done in SOTM before and it feels wrong somehow.

> And Critical Multiplier, not being limited, becomes insane given the fact that half her cards require a discard to do anything.

That requirement becomes a significant problem if you're not able to draw absurdly large numbers of cards, as per my previous point.  Naturally the card has potential; doubtless you can put together some AZ and CR level combo action with Parse, but she doesn't seem to function as well without the hoop-jumping.

> Parse feels so much more interactive to me than visionary. I feel like I'm at least doing something (even if it has little actual visible effect, i feel like Ive done /something/ on her turn - where as visionary its PLay, Power draw with very little riders or effects or combos or chains)

Using Mental Divergence to destroy any Ongoing on the table OR return an Ongoing from someone's Trash doesn't feel like "doing something"?  Twisting the Ether or Wresting the Mind doesn't feel like doing something?  I think Visionary gives you tons of choices, she's one of the most interactive heroes in the game (assuming you don't just sit in a Telekinetic Cocoon forever).  The only thing I don't like about her is how many of her cards are just one-shots (or an Ongoing) that deal piddly amounts of psychic damage, since these are usually her least effective ways to contribute.  Okay that and the fact that I often draw a lot of Mass Levitation and Brain Burn types of cards in my opening hands when they aren't useful to the situation, but that problem can fix itself with Enlighten.

> Expatriette is my favorite - I play her far more than any other hero,

Huh.  I guess you and me have very different tastes.

So far I've played KNYFE, Sentinels, Parse, and Setback and honestly I really liked all of them, though I think I didn't use the sentinels to their full ability.

I haven't gotten to the naturalist yet and I'm nervous, I don't like his bio too much, and I'm not sure if I'll like playing him. Going to bite the bullet soon though and find out

Naturalist is my favourite out of the Vengeance heroes. He's not particularly complicated, I don't think. He has a great variety of stuff he can do, depending on which Form he's in, and you can access Forms no matter where they are since his base power lets him loot his deck or trash for them. He doesn't have too many power-granting cards but he has an ongoing which lets you use two powers a turn. I like the way pretty much every card has a bonus extra thing you can do depending on your Form, though a few don't do anything unless you're in a Form. But you can basically choose which role you want to fill - tanking in Rhino Form, nomming All of the Things in Crocodile Form, or a bunch of other stuff (healing yourself, drawing cards, destroying ongoings, etc) in Gazelle Form. You can also do well if there are a lot of environment targets in play, since you can give yourself soak based on how many there are, plus have the ability to make all heroes immune to damage from environment targets. And a bunch of other stuff :).

I find Nightmist the most frustrating, but that may simply be lack of experience.

I disliked Nightmist at first! but now she is one of my favorites.

I'm thown off a little by this, because it sounds in the first statement that you really like combos, but then you dislike Adept who is king combo and like Expat you is mostly a play/power/draw hero only comboing once in a long while.

Anyway there are several play/power/draw heroes (ie not a lot of combo, start, or end of turn effects) but I definitely feel like I'm doing something when I play Visionary.  Again, its a matter of taste, I feel like I'm being effective when I'm controling the game, and feel like I'm not doing much when I just do damage and draw.  Others feel like they are doing something when they deal damage as opposed to supporting.

Several people have stated they dislike Nightmist most.  I think she is my number one favorite, mostly because I find it nearly impossible to not have a good hand with her.  I really mean that between drawing 3 cards a turn and cards like summon forth you get to see a ton of cards.  On thing that does help though is to not be too set on what you want in play because her best setup can take a ton of cards.  For me I usually say if I get one of these three cards or maybe two of these five then I'm in good shape.  Build just the basics fast and then just build the rest when its convenient after that.

This is actually what I like best about Nightmist.  Unlike with Absolute Zero, when you are always trying to recontrust the same setup and are ineffective until you do so, with Nightmist, you really want the Amulet, the Necklace, the Ring, and Master of Magic all out, but all of your spells are at least somewhat playable right now without all of the setup, so you face interesting choices between time spent powering up and time spent smashing face, with the nifty barb that the less time you spend powering up, the more that big attack will cost you here and now.

Darkwatch Nightmist brought up a new challenge for me. You trade versatility for precision and get more out of using a well time mistform to draw more cards. I still have a lot of fun with her but feel the original is better suit to my play style.

The only heroes I find it frustrating to play as, are the heroes I cannot play as... Man, I need a time machine...

I just played 3 games with Ardent Adept and a search card, and it was much easier. I could look at the songs in my hand, look at their types, see how I'd want to chain them together, and then consult a handy chart to figure out which instrument would be best for what was available. I still prefer playing Cadence (draw 5 cards, play, discard, and bury some of them) over Conjuration (draw a particular instrument) unless I have specific songs in play that I want to take advantage of, but I'm not grabbing the first instrument I find any more.

I definitely recommend the search cards.

The search cards help, but I just can't see the chains.

How does everyone keep track of it all? Do you just remember everything, or is there a trick?

I get a few cards in and end up so confused - I'm starting to think that it's my disability stopping me from being able to concentrate long enough or keep enough pieces of information in working memory to go beyond the Argent basics of "find the right instrument to do the two things I want to do". And that sucks. 

I know a lot of people who have played The Argent Adept over and over again who still need a lot of time to pick out the right Instrument with
"Instrumental Conjuration," or where to put what cards with "Arcane Cadence".  I think he's just a character that requires a lot of practice and use to play in a timely manner.  I've not had much experience with him, myself.  A lot of the people I've played with over the years have fallen in love with the Adept, so I usually let other folks play him.  It makes him easy to forget when I'm choosing my own character for a game!

It doesn't help that the vast majority of my games include at least one person that is an Adept whizz. Every time I see him being used in some complicated and effective way and it just makes me frustrated that I can't grok him like I want to. 

I'm sorry! I can't control my awesomeness!

Envisioner figured out a way of doing it in our games, which I think works pretty well.  You use dice to mark each step in the chain, numbering them sequentially and removing them after they completely resolve.  So here's the uber-chain which lets him play all six Instruments in one turn:

• Activate Musaragni's Harp.  Put a "1" die on the part of the text which says "Activate the Perform text of a Harmony card".

• Choose to Perform Inspiring Supertonic.  Put a "2" die on the Perform text of it.

• Choose to use your new Power to activate Eydisiar's Horn.  Put a "3" die on the part of the text which says "Activate the Perform text of a Melody card".

• Destroy an Ongoing or Environment card with Sarabande of Destruction, then move the "3" die to the part of the Horn which says "…and the Accompany text of a Harmony card".

• Choose to Accompany Alacritous Subdominant.  Put a "4" die on the Accompany text of it.

• Choose to use your new Power to activate Telamon's Lyra.  Put a "5" die on the part of the text which says "Activate the Perform text of a Harmony card".

• Choose to Perform Alacritous Subdominant.  Put a "6" die on the Perform text of it.

• Put Polyphoric Flare into play and take 2 damage so you can use a power.

• Choose to use your new Power to activate Anpunku's Drum.  Draw a card with Counterpoint Bulwark, then destroy another card with Sarabande of Destruction.  (If you can't remember that you were doing the Drum while you do those things, you can mark it with a "7" die, or a "6" and a "1" if you have no dice larger than six-siders.  Remove the "7" when you've finished.)

• You are now done with the card you played while Performing Alacritous Subdominant.  Put Polyphoric Flare in the trash, then remove the "6" die.  You will now see that the highest-numbered die you have out is 5, so look at where the "5" is…it says "Activate the Perform text of a Harmony, and you just did that; move the "5" die to the part of Telamon's Lyra that says "…and the Accompany text of a Rhythm card". 

*  Choose to use the Accompany of Counterpoint Bulwark; put a "6" on it.  Draw a card, then remove the "6".  Look at the 5; it's done, so remove it too.  Now go back to the "4".

• The Power you got from Alacritous Subdominant's Accompany is done, so destroy it.  Remove the "4" die.  The "3" die is on the second half of its card as well, so now that you're done, remove that too.

• You're all the way back to your "2" die, but that one just gave you a Power, and you've resolved both halves of that, so remove it too.  That leaves you with just the "1" die, which is on the first half of Musaragni's Harp.  Move it to the second half; you're now going to activate the Accompany of a Harmony.

• Luckily, you have the second copy of Alacritous Subdominant in play.  Put a "2" die on its Accompany text, and you get a Power.

• Use your Power to activate Xu's Bell; put a "3" on it.  Put a "4" on the Perform text of Counterpoint Bulwark, and choose two targets to give DR to, then remove the "4".

• Move the "3" to the Accompany part of Xu's Bell; put a "4" on the Accompany of Alacritous Subdominant.  You're giving yourself another Power.  Put a "5" on Drake's Pipes, the last Instrument you haven't played yet.  Destroy another card with Sarabande of Destruction, then I guess deal damage with Scherzo of Frost and Flame or something.

" Remove the "5" and then the "4"; you've finished resolving the Subdominant, so destroy it.  You're left with the "3" on Xu's Bell, which is done, so remove that.  The "2" was also on the Subdominant and has been removed as well, so you just have the "1" left on the second half of Musaragni's.  Remove that, and you're done!

Go ahead and practice this scenario a few times by yourself; if you can follow this entire process, everything should be easier by comparison.  If this is too much for you to figure out, try doing just a few steps at a time, pacing it however you're comfortable.  Either you'll eventually get the hang of it, or perhaps Argent is just not the hero for you.  (It's also possible that this little training exercise of Envisioner's isn't quite as good as it could be; I can follow it okay, but maybe it needs to be made a little stricter, like only using odd numbers for Instruments and even numbers for songs, or something, or more clearly distinguishing when you move a die vs. when you remove it.)

The thing that bothers me about scenarios like that: the likelihood of a game lasting long enough to actually get to that point is all but nil.
I mean, people complain about heroes like Absolute Zero or Bunker in terms of set-up time, and they’re good to go with 3 cards a piece.

Actually achieving this combo without losing anything to destruction? It’s theory-craft of the least-useful, most conjectural sort.

Brain. Melt. I'll try to work through that, but I'm one of those people that needs to understand things in context in order for them to make sense. That looks like an unintelligible convoluted mess because I'm not seeing the patterns. Maybe it'll help me see them. At the moment, it feels like hoop-jumping. 

I refuse to be beaten by this. And I think the way forward is for me to suss out a generic how-to-play-Argent method rather than just parroting back specific chains without understanding why I'm doing what I'm doing, which is the approach people have taken with trying to help me in the past. I don't have the cognitive capacity when I'm feeling ill (which is most of the time at the moment) to keep a load of different chains in my head anyway, I can barely remember what day it is.

Depends on who you are fighting and if your allies are willing to sacrifice for you.

Adept has a far easier time of it though, his set up allows for additional card play/draw, thus shortening the time needed. Are you ever going to get the huge combo Envisioner describes above? If you play him enough of course you will eventually (or against villains like Plague Rat who don't destroy stuff) but he will almost always be able to get some sort of chain, even if it's 'merely' a chain to allow him to use 2 Instruments.

My most frustrating hero is whomever I am playing at the time, I know the cards I want are in the deck but I can't draw into them at exactly the right time.

Oh, and Darkwatch Nightmist, I always forget what I have placed back on my deck in the excitement of the game.

If the problem is following along the chain, maybe you could try the MAgic the Gathering technique of turning cards "tapping"? Then visually some cards have been "used" and it might allow you to follow along better… or maybe just "tap" all of them and keep the one you are using right then and there straight?

If it gets hard or frustrating with other people trying to tell you how to play, or you simply don't want to leave them waiting forever, maybe play a few games solo? I know it can be hard to play a solo game, 90% of my games are solo, but then you only have to worry about yourself and can take as much time as you need to work through AA's turn.

Then again, maybe we all need to zip it and allow you to figure out a solution for yourself instead of tripping all over ourselves to "help"

I haven't had any problem drawing cards with Parse yet. And I'm not saying this like I'm playing a game with TLT either; Her card draw seems pretty effective to me in terms of getting more cards into her hand. I happen to really like the discard x to draw 2x card - especailly with critical mulitplier out!

My gf played her the other night, and even without other heroes contributing to card draw, she was still giving Fanatic or Expatriette +1 damage bonuses quite routinely - Serveral turns in a row in fact, which was even more fun when she put two out. 

Then again, my gf and I both have no problem skipping turns to draw two cards if we feel the need. 

As for visionary, let me put it htis way.

This is a typical visionary turn for me

Play a card. It d oes something.

Use a power. It does something.

Draw a card.

Sure Mental Divergence is great for the team, and Wrest the Mind and Twist the Either have some great effects, but every turn of Visionary is … Card. It does one thing. Power. It does one thing. And draw a card. There isnt any effects together, any synergy between her cards.  - Sure you can combo things like Wrest the Mind and Twist the Ether, but those rarely come up together in a game. Unlike with Parse where I pull out some sort of card synergy every game.

Where as with Parse I have the feeling of

Oh. Start of turn choices. (Snap Decision - synergizing with Critical Multiplier, and allowing 2 card plays a turn!)

Play a card. this often allows me to make some other rider effect (Critical Multiplier), allows others to do something (Synactic Analysis) or when it does do damage, it has a rider.

Use a Power. This power often has some sort of synergy as well. Segmentation Fault with Critical. Shuffling the Villain Deck (extrasensory) Or just a boost to damage (Targeting Arrow - Speaking of which, ahahah, Argent Adept is throwing the Horns on Targeting Arrow. lol)

Her turns seem more synergestic, have chances for small chains and combos than Visionaries.

And yeah. I love expat. She is one of my favorite heroes, theme, power, strength, and doing things wise. The Synergy between Ammo and Guns (obviously) is a great card effect to me and something I love playing with.

Now Sefrit

I think if I reword it as I explained above it might make more sense.

AbZ and AA have huge card combo chains. this is far to much for me. I like just simple one or two card synergy. Where you can make some things happen, chain a little, get a few effects going at once - but do so often and reliably. Visionary I feel doesn't get this very often or reliable. AbZ and AA take it to the extreme and are useless without their massive card combo synergy going (well AA isnt useless, but he is certainly falling far short of his potential)

If I was to rate the heroes in terms of how I see their decks with Synergestic play, I'd rate them like this:

Top 5 - in no particular order

Nightmist - Queen of synergy with Heedless Lash. Loveeee that card. Master of Magic and Starshield, and her base power … all of it synergizes so well together.

Chrono - all those one hit riders synergies with the damage boosts in his deck.

Tachyon - Her entire /deck/ is a synergestic powerhouse of Burst.

Wraith. Yeah. Combo synergy heaven.

OX - Most certainly synergizing off his power, and start of turn effects

Next 5 - Again no Particular Order

Setback - Of course there is synergy, its all token pool effects

Knyfe - Wow! She maybe deserves to be in the top 5.

The Naturalist - Yep. All those form riders and multiple choices on cards depending on the order you play them in.

Parse - Already talked about her above

The Sentinels - Built to synergize with each others powers and allow for some great combinations

Next 5 - Still no order!

Bunker - Mode Synergy, gattling gun/grenade launcher choices, ammo drop

Fanatic - Knowing all that damaging yourself is going to pay off with Wrathful, comboing into Sacrosant.  Less synergy than many others, ill admit, but I find her theme stupidly awesome so thats probably why i love her. But the fact that you know all the self damage your taking is going to pay off with that Wrathful (if you can draw it, hah!) makes her give me the feeling I'm synergizing anyways.

Haka - The Haka's are great synergy cards

Ra - He is built around this fact Less dependant on card sthan AbZ but still gets some great synergy. Its just boring synergy of +1 damage. Sure he is a powerhouse but … he only does all of the same thing (So why is he less than Chrono Ranger? Personal preference. I like 1 hit damage riders better than  7damage bursts i guess)

Tempest - Between Gene Bound Shackles and the other damage changing one, plus his multiple power choices some good synergy. 

Last 5 - what? Order? We had that?

Fixer - Once I stopped looking to play him as looking for the best Style and Tool for the moment, and instead looked for the best moment for the style or tool i had in play or in my hand, i found him a lot more enjoyable. I stance dance (to use an MMO term) with him a lot, and am not afraid to toss styles for something more ffective now. Live in the now, not the tomorrow with him. Before this, I found him to be woefully boring, but still effective.

Legacy - His cards don't really have a lot of synergy either, not for most of the  game at least. 

The Visionary - yeah. Explained this above.

Er. AbZ and AA don't really belong in the last 5. But their comborific setups make me feel overly complicated, and taking 20 minutes to work through a turn of theirs (okay, 5-8 but still!) seems overly much. They have -too much- synergy, and its too much of a good thing

I love Fixer, and even though I put him in the bottom of the pile for synergy, its only because he has so many less options than others. Seriously, once I looked past the best tool/style for the job and instead the best job for what I had in my hand he became so much more interesting to play.  Legacy is great, and Visionary I get that can be powerful… but both of them just arent any fun for me to play. (Legacy may be a side product of the fact that I have played him in hundreds of demo games… when working for >G at Origins thats the hero you play pretty much all day. Hah)

Note. I like Dark Visionary a lot more. I think its cause her power allows me to manipulate other decks off the bat without having to wait for certain cards to hit for Villain/Environmental. And if those cards hit I can use my power elsewhere or draw evendeeper into that same deck. 

I have waxed poeticfor a long time. Heh.

I agree with you, but I never try for the full combo.  Sure he can be riddiculous with it, but I find that he IS GOOD with only 2-3 cards out if they are well chosen.  And similar to my Nightmist comment they don't always have to be the same 2-3 cards so he get to that point in his game much better than AZ or Bunker.

There is quite a large list of heroes this describes.  Bunker(with no mode), Expat, Fanatic, Legacy (although you can get two powers that do something), Tempest, Wraith (although you can get two powers that do something), Ra, Fixer, etc. I don't want to go through the whole list of heroes but most of the base set heroes (including Visionary) seem to have this feel and then they got more involved as the expansions came out (which I think is a good thing).

Now I did list Tempest and Ra in here and you put them on your list though near the bottom.  I guess I don't consider anything that gives +1 damage a "chain" so much as a buff.  For me a "chain" is a more interactive combo, so they both feel like straight up play/power/draw heroes to me, but I will try to keep your view point in mind as far as what you like to see.

A good friend of mine really likes heroes that he feels get stronger every turn as the game progresses, so he really likes heroes like Ra.  However he really dislikes it when heroes can't get a good setup so Zero really frustrates him.  I think there is a delicate balance in that.

Ok, thanks for the explanation, that makes more sense.

I'm curious, what is this one setup to work towards?

Also, would you mind describing the "ineffective" state Absolute Zero is in pre-setup?

Adept is extremely Fiddly.

Almost everything he does involves multiple things happenning at the same time.  There are people who thrive on ordering things like that.

I channel some OCD-ness when I play Adept.  To me it is all about putting things in order.

I wouldn't be too worried about pulling off big chains with Adept, often it seems people will chain instruments with him even if it doesn't really help the current situation.

Here's how I deal with it:

1.  Once Supertonic is out, I put the instruments that activate a perform Harmony first, since those are my basic chaining instruments.

2.  The most important effects to remember are the ones that can be activated by the second effect of those instruments.  These are your Chaining effects.

Take the Harp.  It plays Perform Harmony and Accompany Harmony, that perform is your link to the next instrument, the accompany is essentially free.

3.   From there it is just memory and bookkeeping.  I order the songs by type, and pay attention to the "free effects".  The Harp and Lyra are your chain instruments, they each can activate Supertonic.  Harp gives you accompany Harmony, Lyra Accompany Rhythym, so those effects I pay attention to.

Supertonic has the Adept heals 2 on it, so it is a very basic chain with the Harp, someone gets a power and you heal.

Your other free chain for the harp is Dissonant, which lets you burn your deck to get cards.

Lyra is my favorite, since it's "Free" effect is accompany Rhythym, which lets you have an ally play a card (Inventive), or draw a card (Bulwark)

4.  Just because you can chain doesn't mean you should.  If your best action is to give someone a power, and you can, do it.  If you can gain some "Free effects" and do it, great, if not do what needs done and forget the chaining.

5.  Once you get familiar with his deck you can get an idea about what songs you want out to best help your team he gets a lot easier to play.  Spiff's guide cards are awesome, they really help, but you still have to get the basics of his deck down, and the best way to do that is to play him.

Arcane Cadence can be overwhelming.  I have found my best way to do it is:

1. Find the one card I am most OK never seeing again, that one goes on bottom of the deck (or an instrument that you can summonr with conjuration)

2.  The most situational card to the trash, I can Vernal it if needed.

3.  The one that best works in play into play.

4.  The two I want in my hand go on top of the deck and in hand.

I organize it like that, it works for me.  Then I put them there in the order on the card (it's best early on that your allies give you leeway on the order)

Adept is perfectly capable when only utilising one-two instruments at a time. There is no need to explode your head to use him to great effect.

I agree - its certainly gotten more interesting! (I wouldnt say better, but certainly more intricate!) - after all the 5 new heroes i love due to their internal synergy.

And yeah, with Fixer and Ra and Fanatic, I listed that their so called 'synergy' isnt as intricate or even 'real' synergy like Chrono Ranger or KNYFE. But I at least feel like I get something out of them, but visionary… i never feel like I do. Since of late its just been my gf and I playing together, we each play 2 heroes so I play Visionary more, but… still.  Allthough fanatic does have "riders" on her cards - Use a power, redirect damage, draw a card - things that can help support her. Especially with the one that you discard a card to do damage every turn.

I certainly agree she is powerful.  Never had any doubt about it, deck manipulation leads to the best case scenario possible. And im a big LCG/CCG player so deck manipulation when done right means winning games. Just … i donno. Boring for me to play. Heh.

Phantaskippy, your post on Adept was right on and well stated.

Foote, same for your statement.

I'm of the same mind, when it comes to Argent Adept.  Depending on what my opening flop is, I'll either gun for Harmony/Harmony, Rhythm/Rhythm, or Melody/Melody.  Even then–barring outside card play and the like–it's still likely 3 turns before actually pulling that off (two, if you have Instrumental Conjuration to run with).

I think one of the reasons I really like Bunker is because I'm not really picky on what Equipment I get.  Once I've gotten 2 down, I'll gladly drop into Turret Mode and blast away, either staying high on the HP chain with Maintenance Unit or just laying down fire.  AZ's deck search is much better than Bunker's obviously, which lets him get the 'required' bits out faster.

But still, you'd have to have how many cards out to pull off Argent Adept's "uber-combo"?  All 6 instruments, as well as at least one copy of each song (9, in all)?  Even in the longest of games with no card destruction, I don't think I've ever had a character get that many cards out at once!

I was just trying to show how the notation would work.  Here's a much simpler and more practical example.

• Activate Musaragni's Harp.  Put a "1" die on the part of the text which says "Activate the Perform text of a Harmony card".

• Choose to Perform Inspiring Supertonic.  Put a "2" die on the Perform text of it.

• Choose to use your new Power to activate Eydisiar's Horn.  Put a "3" die on the part of the text which says "Activate the Perform text of a Melody card".

• Destroy an Ongoing or Environment card with Sarabande of Destruction, then move the "3" die to the part of the Horn which says "…and the Accompany text of a Harmony card".

• Choose to Accompany Inspiring Supertonic.  Put a "4" die on the Accompany text of it.  Gain 2 HP, then remove the "4".

• You're done resolving the Horn, so remove your "3".

• You're done using your Power from Supertonic, so remove your '2".

• Move on to where the Harp says "…and the Accompany text of a Harmony card" and move the "1" die to there.  Put a "2" die on the Accompany of Inspiring Supertonic.  Gain 2 HP, then remove the "2".

• Remove the "1" and you're done.

Without Alacritous Subdominant, the whole thing is much less brain-melty.  And it's not like you HAVE to use Subdominant's Accompany and then blow it up; doing so is cool, but if you expect to have a next turn, you're probably better continuing to play extra cards and use your Accompanies on something else.  So if you never get the hang of a chain longer than this, Silverleaf, it isn't that big a loss.  You can still perform very well with Argent by just playing one Instrument each turn; eking the extra utility out of Subdominant can make the difference in tight matches, but choosing not to go there is a valid playstyle choice, and over the course of all your games it won't hamper your effectiveness too much, since after all it's not as if you even always draw Subdominant, nor a way to Accompany it.

When I'm playing the Adept, I base my strategy for that game on three things, mainly - the villain/environment situation, the other heroes in the group (and thus the thing they're likely to need), and the cards I have available to me at that time. Getting the Harp, the Lyra, Supertonic, and any Rhythm out is a nice combo but it doesn't always happen. You can do just fine with two songs and an instrument (provided that instrument can activate both the songs). If all you end up with is both Sarabandes and your Pipes, that's still really cool if you're in a nasty environment or against a villain with horrible ongoings, since you can take out two a turn. It's also okay to chuck an instrument in your trash if you get one via Arcane Cadence (and don't need that instrument right now), since you can retrieve it straight into play with Instrumental Conjuration later.

I recall one game I had as the Adept, against Citizen Dawn, in which I only got out a couple of songs and an instrument or two, but it worked really well (I think one of the songs was Alacritous Subdominant so I kept letting the other heroes play stuff to blow up citizens or whatever) and we ended up winning that game.

Of course, it's nice if you can get all your stuff out, and the Adept has a lot of stuff…but so do several other heroes and none of them need to get everything out in order to function either. On more than one occasion I've ended up with my entire deck out (in hand/in play), which is always nice, but it's only happened a few times so far. Whenever it's my turn, I'll look at the current game situation and try to decide what needs to be done right now, or what's likely to need doing over the next round or so. If I can, I'll get out the cards that will help that. If I don't have anything that seems immediately useful then I'll put out whichever of my cards I think will be most helpful in the future. Unless my starting hand is devoid of songs, instruments, Arcane Cadence, or Instrumental Conjuration (so, most of the deck), I pretty much always have something I can play. If I have one of those first turns where I end up chaining anywhere up to all four of my Arcane Cadences, I just have to remember to get a song in play by the end of my Play phase so I can actually use a power that turn…though I haven't forgotten to do so for a while now - I think my brain's got the hang of that one now :).

I think I have a reasonable memory for stuff like this in general, since it only took a few games with the Adept before I started really getting the hang of his deck. So I know what all his cards do and can remember them without needing to look at the deck (this is true for most of the heroes, though ;)). Actually, thinking about it, I'm not 100% on the Drum (part of a Rhythm and something) and the Horn (Melody and something). But the other four instruments are fine ;).

So basically, I just play with whatever I've got - if I have several options of stuff to do (so, most of the time ;)), I'll just put out whatever I think will be most helpful at that moment.

I was in a game with Silverleaf on G+ last week and also don't quite get the Adept.  He always felt like he was on the cusp of being able to flip out like a musical ninja and bust some moves, but he never quite did.

I have the same thing with AZ (my character in said game).  In that game I happened to get his required set up out in the first few turns and as we were against Ambuscade The Kinda Meh they never got destroyed.  My set up was in play all game and I was effective.  In a game I played the following evening, all I ever managed to achive was to up the H rating by one.  He was terminally pointless and really, really unfun to play.

I'll agree that when trying to learn tricky heroes it definately helps to follow each and every step through to understand them, even if it makes a simple game take longer.  When you play a card and someone watching says instantly "net result of what you did is 3 healing for you, 22 damage dealt, next turn" or "find that card, play that card, do that" it kinda shortcuts the 'getting the hang of it' process.

To my mind, Absolute Zero VERY strongly encourages you to get both Null-Point Calibration Unit and Isothermic Transducer into play before you do anything else.  You can go it with just one (being a self-sacrificial damage-dealer or a mediocre tank), but much more so than, say, KNYFE, I feel like I am being ounished for my haste/bad luck.  And, of course, most of the famous examples of him dealing serious damage come from Thermal Shockwave, but as that's a card with only two copies and none of his search/recursion tech works on it, good luck with that.

As for his ineffective state without a setup: how about being a Hero who can only damage yourself?  This is his literal starting state, and it is the weakest in the game.

But if you want a more detailed example, consider this: Cryo Chamber, Focused Aperatures, Glacial Structure, and Modular Realignment are, collectively, 11 cards - more than a quarter of a Hero deck! - which, among themselves and AZ's base Power, do exactly nothing to impact any aspect of the game (unless you need to tank some Fire damage, I guess).  Sure, Glacial Structure lets you see more cards… by skipping your Play and Power phases.  And remember that it costs you a card.  You know what else nets you a two-card gain at the cost of both Play and Power?  A default game mechanic that everyone has access to.  I am reasonably certain that no other hero has a quarter of their deck which can see them doing nothing on the opening turns… indeed, it is totally impossible, since the only other Heroes who have Powers potentially that useless are The Argent Adept and Setback.  Neither one has Discard-only tutoring, or passive cards which cannot accomplish something when combined with base Powers.  The closest they get is the Adept opening to all six Intruments in a row, and that's still only half as many temporarily dead cards (none of which are as truly dead as Glacial Structure).

This is not purely a thought excercise.  These cards, plus Fueled Freeze and Isothermic Transducer were all that a close friend of mine drew in her first game as Absolute Zero (and the Transducer came out after she had played the Cryo Chamber, so that was another hoop to jump through).  This contributed in a meaningful way to her giving up on Sentinels entirely.  I will allow that may bias me some, but that's not all there is to it.

For starters, the scenario above isn't even the only crippling draw for Absolute Zero.  Combined, his Modules and Module-seeking One-Shots account for sixteen cards!  Sixteen cards, which amount to either dealing a single point of damage, healing a single point of damage, or occasionally playing a Realignment (painfully, if you don't have any targets for it in your Trash) to do both.  That's totally crazy.  I always thought that Ra was excessive with eight copies of Staff/Summon Staff, but at least when you loop those together, you're healing 3 and dealing 4 each turn, which is a wild improvement over a setup-only AbZero.  The Argent Adept is totally built around his setup, but Instruments and Conjurations of same only account for 11 cards in his deck, and you get benefits from playing more than two.  Nightmist's setup is a lot more versatile and powerful without One-Shot support, and even it only comes out to twelve cards - and this on a Hero who totally revolves around card draw and discard!  Nobody has as many bad draws, or is as useless when getting them, as poor Absolute Zero.  And that's a crying shame.

You see, I really like Absolute Zero.  I think he's a neat character, and that his gameplay does a good job of conveying it - I would say he's got the most evocative design of the original ten heroes!  When I play him, and the pieces come together, it's brilliant.  But much, much more often, I find that they don't.  Either he's too mired in dead cards to make a workable setup, or he's getting nuked out of his setup and painfully aware that without it he can only hurt himself, or he's set up quickly but then drawing nothing but Modules and Module-seeking cards with no greater damage source in sight - the combination of two Modules AND Thermal Shockwave AND a steady flow of damaging One-Shots (there are only seven in his deck, and I'd played him twice before I saw any except Fueled Freeze) is just way too unreliable.  I feel like a lot of people get that setup one game by pure random chance (or maybe Visionary/Team Leader Tachyon/some other hero more effective than Absolute Zero), and they think "oh, I didn't get this guy before, but now that I understand him, he's awesome".  But while there are some counterintuitive principles to grasp, mostly, it's a counterintuitive deck messing you about.

Fortunately, I don't see this as a problem without a solution.  I simply changed the numbers of a few cards in his deck (for example, down to three of each Module, and five Module Instalations, which now search both deck and discard like everyone else's setup cards - I mostly added more damaging One-Shots in the new five cards of space).  And I read his power as "Absolute Zero deals himself 1 Fire or 1 Cold damage.  Draw a card."  Combined with a few tweaks to how other things work (Glacial Structure is both an Ongoing and an Equipment, and lets you draw whenever it gets destroyed, so it at least has value shielding the rest of your setup), his damage/taking potential is exactly the same as in the printed version, but he now gets good games often and garbage ones rarely.

If only Bunker were so straightforward to fix…

Definately agree. Figuring out your own stuff is vital - not saying that people shouldn't point out stuff you've forgotten, like you should take less damage because of Cryo Chamber or that you still have a card play left, but you can't learn effectively if someone just spoon-feeds you the answer. It's like doing your kid's homework for them because they don't understand it. Sure, the homework gets done, but the kid can't do the next one either.

And this is why I want to set up a regular weekly learning session on G+ on Wednesday evening/night for people to play heroes they haven't grokked yet. No expert-with-everyone players (sorry guys, I love you, but we don't need the pressure of you seeing our hideous mistakes even if you don't point and laugh), no telling each other what to do (helpful suggestions are fine). If you're interested in joining us, let me know!

Oh man.  We've been through this before.

The short of it:  AZ doesn't need fixed.  He rocks.  Leave Ryan Frost Alone!!

I'm not advocating a rewrite of AZ, I know there are people out there who dig Mr Frost the way he is and that's cool. There are sooooo many hero combinations in this cool lil game that everyone can find a character who works for them. 

That said... I don't enjoy Z to the point that when he shows up on the randomiser, I re-randomise him and get someone else!

How fortunate for you, phantaskippy, that I could do nothing to your use of Absolute Zero if I wanted to.  You have nothing to fear from me.

You may, however, find yourself distressed by threads explicitly about people having issues with certain heroes, if such opinions pose the threat you seem to believe.

I'm sorry, that came across wrong, it seems that everytime someone makes a post like yours we end up with pages of rehashed debates that go back to the early days of this game, I have no problem with house-ruling heroes, just wanted to avert a firestorm of rehashing.

Don't be sad, Ryan Frost! Everyone... sort of... tolerates you!

Agreed, let's try to keep the rehashing to a minimum.

I too don't enjoy AZ as much as some of the other heroes. I don't mind the maths, but like Ironic I find that he often has a handful of cards that aren't really useful since he's set up already, or has nothing in trash, leaving me with few interesting decisions. And I'm not keen on having to track how much damage he's dealt/been dealt, because it's extremely easy to forget about and frankly, not that interesting to me. But I don't mind him, to be honest.

Perhaps I also overreacted.

So that this thread cannot be derailed, anyone who wants rehash old arguments can do so here.

This sounds helpful.  Where is it on the BGG site?

It's on a little known portion of BGG called [url= Spiff's SotM Resources | Print & Play Accessories] Spiff's site![/url] your first stop for all things Sentinels, accessory wise.

Yep, check Spiff's site even before you check the official site!

Careful, I was just told today by an eagle-eyed SotM fan that the Search Sheet for Wraith is missing her Micro-Targeting Computer.  I'm going to fix that and post an updated file tonight.  You may want to wait til tomorrow to print anything.