A Scathing Review of SotM on Penny Arcade's SU&SD

I saw that Penny Arcade's PATV program "Shut Up and Sit Down" did a review of Sentinels, and I was quite excited to see that it would get more exposure.

Then I actually watched the review...

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/sentinels-of-the-multiverse

I understand subjectivity in reviews, but this is just...inaccurate.  They seem to be confused and frustrated by a lot of aspects of the game that most people praise (not having to look at the rulebook, game variety, etc.) and go so far as to say that there are little to no tactics or strategy and you just hit the boss over and over again.  I mean, I know that some bosses are pretty straightforward, but how many games did they actually play?

Fortunately, it looks like the bulk of the comments are Sentinels fans creating accounts just to post up "I find this review to be inaccurate and poorly constructed".  I don't think too many people will be discouraged by this rather disappointing perspective, but I thought it was worth bringing to the attention of the community.

I can agree with them that there are times that the board gets a bit cluttered and confusing, but they seem to be speaking from a perspective of someone who has never played a board game before...

I....am actually getting much angrier about this than I thought I would be. I just hope that people take this with a grain of salt, try it out some before blindly trusting. Or even better, hopefully Penny Arcade will revisit the game, after they figure it out properly. This is honestly my favorite game (ever), so I have high hopes that PA will find it great eventually.

From what I understand, Gabe and Tycho are actually on first name terms with Greater Than Games, and are quite good friends.  Carl from Automata is in GSF, for Fanatic's sake!  I think this perspective is purely one held by Shut Up & Sit Down.  Again, I'm all for a critical perspective, but their concerns seemed to be from the perspective of someone who has never played a board game.  Like, ever...

@Reckless

I wouldn't go so far as to say "quite good friends", though we often chat with Jerry at PAX when he has a bit of free time in the Tabletop area.

Also, fwiw regarding this review, from my perspective, I don't take reviews personally, and Sentinels is big enough that we are firmly in the "any publicity is good publicity" stage, so I'm not concerned about SUSD's dislike of the game at all from a business perspective. :)

I figured any publicity was good publicity.  I'm not worried that this will cause any damage to >G or Sentinels, but this review is just not very good!  I could understand if they critiqued some of the more complicated decks or villains, or even the various rules confusions that are often confirmed by the forum, but saying that there are no tactics, strategy, or teamwork to this game?  And their main frustration was the variety of games to be played?  It just seems like such a strange thing to critique.

For those who haven't watched the review, all you need is this quote:

"Sentinels has a lot of love online, and I think it is that treacle that makes you feel like you're enjoying the game..."

So, they basically state that all of us who think we like this game, who think that the gameplay is good aside from the theme, are wrong. Hey, what's the forum policy on swearing? Because seriously, f*** them...

Those guys are obviously mostly just in love with how cheeky they are in their videos.  I agree it seems like they played the game once then ran outside to start filming some antics.

I don't think their basic feelings are out of line with what my friends who don't like the game feel as well... but they definitely went for the sensationalist approach to their review, which is really a sign of the growing popularity of the game. It's cool to bash what's hot. 

I wrote a big post, but I'll say this instead:

There are all kinds of people who love this game, and for many good reasons.  Whatever the reasons these guys didn't.

It won't hurt the game.  I mean I'm sure a good review would have had some fans of theirs ordering it solely on their review, but overall this game has been growing ridiculously and it has done so because of the quality of the game.

It seems like the reason why was lack of strategy, cooperation, and tactics.  Also, too much and not enough variety at the same time.

I'm not worried about the game suffering any on a critical or financial level.  I'm more disappointed at the vagueness of their review, their need for "style" over substance, and their criticisms being so painfully obvious that they hadn't played much of the game at all.  I visit Penny Arcade daily, and I've seen a few of SU & SD's reviews and been unimpressed.  But this?  This is just sloppy, and (while there were moments) not terribly funny.

If enough people point out to Gabe and whatshisname that these dorks have a bad product which shouldn't be associated with PA, they'd probably drop them.

Weird that, isn't it? Obviously I didn't really like the game when I first played it, way before I discovered this forum. And I only think I like it now because you guys all do. Sigh.

As for theme vs gameplay, well I'm a good barometer for whether this game's decent or not - I don't read comics and don't care much for superheroes, I prefer dry soulless abstract-ish Euros to anything that's dripping with theme and I'm turned off a game if it doesn't have either coloured cubes or some kind of meeples. I really shouldn't like Sentinels because it just isn't my kind of game. But I think it's awesome - not the best game I own but the one I most enjoy.

I honestly couldn't get through the intro of the video.  The "humor" was just unfunny to me...

Huh.  I need to think about this quote a bit.  I am very much a fan of the genre, but after Sentinels my other "go to" game is Go.  While not European, I can't think of a rough better description of it than a dry abstractish game dripping with theme.  It's too stark for colored cubes, though, only black and white stones.

Go is one of the greatest games ever created, but Sentinels is the game I most enjoy as well.

That said, I watched about half of the review - the amount that I could before my daughter woke up and asked for her screen time - and was not especially impressed. I think I'll have to watch a few more of their eps to see if they were having a bad day, or if their reviews are so universally shallow.

honestly, I too was a bit shocked by how negative it was.

But then I remembered that literally every single time I've seen this game demoed with "newbies", at least one of them has loved it and bought it on the spot (not sure how many times that is but it's definitely more than 10). Is it complex? absolutely. will that turn some people off? sure. Do I consider that a huge issue? I do not.

I really enjoyed their cosplay. 

"He wants us to fight Baron Blade."

"But we fought Baron Blade this morning!"

"I KNOOOW."

I mean, I chuckled. That said, writing something and putting it out to the world makes one develop a thick skin. *shrugs* Not the game for them. No worries.

I also found that funny.  Then we game with some players who are perfectly happy scoring flawless victories against level 1 enemies with the best heroes.  One has yet to play anyone but Legacy.

They had mixed feelings about Betrayal at the House on the Hill as well and I love that game.  Actually I have disagreed with most of their reviews.  I guess we just have different tastes in gaming.  For example, I personally love when there is barely a rule book and all the rules are on the cards (or board or whatever) being played.

Its fine, the game is already successful and I already have a group to play it with.

Betrayal is a neat idea and can be a lot of fun but more than a few haunts have some balance issues…

One of the tings that personally confused me was (I'll exagerate here) their utter horror at the idea that there are multiple types of damage. Maybe it's because I'm a big fan of role-playing games, but is having thematically, but not mechanically, different damages really such a bad thing? I've rarely encountered "battle games that didnt have at least three types if not more.

Another thing, and I think I realize this will turn into a rant but I can't stop myself, do they not get the idea behind a game where you fight things? "All your doing is hitting him and lowering his hp" (pained wail for exageration and comical effect).... well, duh, it is a game about fighting villains. You know in Mortal Kombat all you do is punch the other guy in the face, you dont have the option to engage him in a philosophical discussion or steal his girlfriend because that isnt the focus of the game. I've played a few board games like Descent and Runebound, but I never thought of complaining that all I could possibly do was kill monsters, that's the focus of the game.

Finally, I get that the sheer amount of text can get overwhelming in Sentinels, I mostly play solo and that has given me some trouble before, but don't most card games have rules on the cards? Magic is hugely successful, but on the cards without the keywords it reads very similiarly to Sentinels, and if you don't know the keywords that is very helpful. I just feel like they blew the level of complexity out of proportions.

P.S.

@Christopher: When they pictured you in the past (I assume it was meant to be you) you had an old style pipe. Do you own such an item?

Re: pipe. I do not. I am not the sort to smoke anything. A tumbler of scotch would have been much more appropriate.

Which brings up a more important question:  What are the Heroes favorite alcoholic baverages?  This is important for possible parties involving role play and costumes.

I see Absolute Zero picking up a can of beer, which promptly freezes. He tries to cut the can away, and then gnaws on the beer for a few minutes.

Finally, he throws the beer into the trash in disgust.

Did they also not figure out that a lot of the time the damage type is irrelevant? In terms of game play, who cares if Wraith's doing projectile or melée if she hasn't got a Micro Targeting Computer in play. It's often just about flavour or helping you to visualise what's going on, like when you destroy Ra's staff to do projectile damage which gives a great image of him throwing the staff at the enemy in frustration which you can totally ignore if you're all about the mechanics.

Check me out, defending not strictly mechanically necessary theme! It's like I'm not even a real eurogamer any more. Sentinels is corrupting me… quick, pass the meeples.

Poor Zero! I guess a liquid beer would actually damage him, being too warm and all.

I can see Tachyon with an energy drink and vodka, something like that. Wraith with champagne. Chrono with sippin' whiskey (the good stuff, where you get your eyesight back after three days). And O-X with a nice cold pint of brake fluid.

Legacy is all-american, but his ancester wasn't upper class at all, so I'm guessing whiskey for him too, although he probably drinks beer when more appropriate.  I wonder if Legacy can get drunk. . . need an official ruling on that.

I don't imagine Fanatic drinks.

I love the idea of Tachyon at the club, drinking an electric screwdriver and wishing dancing with her wife didn't have to be so slow.

Wraith is drinking top notch wines, but I can see her down a beer at Legacy's cook-out, pretending to like it as she tries to fit in.

Bunker's a soldier, so beer for him.

Fixer I bet doesn't drink, and I bet he hangs out with Unity since she's underage and he isn't going to let her go that route.

Tempest, he's an interesting one.  I doubt he drinks with others, I can't imagine he'd be very fun drunk, losing your entire people and planet would do that.

I see Fanatic taking communion wine, and taking Mass daily, but not drinking socially.

Since this is what the conversation has come to...

Legacy: Budweiser, pure and simple. And it leaves the good stuff for other people.

Wraith: Fine wine or brandy.

Bunker: Whatever's cheapest on the shelf.

Chronoranger: Whiskey, neat.

Expatriette: Rotgut gin.

Fanatic: A glass of cheap red wine with dinner. She is Latin, after all.

Haka: Nothing for me, thanks.

Mr. Fixer: Chinese red wine (jiu)

NightMist: Absinthe and PBR

O-X: He tries anything, to no avail.

Ra: An ancient beer he brews himself

Argent Adept: $1 well drink nights out at the bar

Tachyon: Jaeger bombs

Visionary: Shares her absinthe with NightMist

Tempest: DI water actually gets him completely trashed

AZ: Everclear. It's the only thing that won't freeze on him.

Unity: Another teetotaler (edit: or possibly vodka cranberry)

Scholar: White Russians. Duh.

Unity is under 18? Wow, I rdidn't realise she was that young...

Or is she from a country where the drinking age is different? Isn't she Asian of some kind?

She's not, she's 19... or at least she is whenever the year is that the bios are all up (and don't forget that drinking ages are different in the states)

I have it on good authority from Christopher that The Scholar is one to enjoy a bloody mary every so often.

Israeli, I believe.

I reckon AA probably mixes himself non-girly cocktails too. You know when you're at a party and you've drunk all the beer and find yourself mixing up all the dregs of the bottles that are languishing at the back of the spirits cabinet (they've been left there for good reason)? Well, that. Except in his case, his cocktails actually taste good. ;)

I only said Unity was possibly a teetotaler because that's how she feels to me. She just feels like someone who doesn't drink.

Or to possibly enjoy a vodka cranberry.

Adept was a bartender, he probably has a list of mixed drinks that he drinks depending on the occasion.

Unity works as an intern at the freedom five building, so she lives in the States I believe in a big city, so I'm assuming 21 to drink, she probably drinks when she can get away with it, Vodka and cranberry sounds good.

I would assume Haka has tried just about everything, but it probably takes way too much to get him buzzed.  I can definitely see him drinking a ton of booze and causing a lot of damage unintentionally his frist time.  He probably doesn't drink anymore.

AZ begs the question of what he actually could drink, and how could he even stay hydrated, or if his body even works like that anymore. . . I'll just agree with everclear and pass on the debate.

His metabolism is probably so slow at this point that consuming anything but ambient warmth would be almost painful.

If by ambient warmth you mean the heat death of the universe, ya that would probably feel nice to him.

I love that they took the ridiculous idea of a frozen man and went all the way to nearly absolute zero as his body temperature.  He would live encased in a giant block of frozen air that would be searing hot to him.

But yeah, I bet he likes a cold beer.

I have an image in my head of him getting annoyed at people who keep trying to get him to chill their drinks, ala Iceman in the X-Men movies.

Although, I did listen to the D6 Generation give SoTM a 3+, which is a rather good score! Honestly, I trust them over Shut Up and Sit Down.

Let's also not forget that Tom Vasel champions this game. I hear he's rather popular....

The dice tower is what introduced me to the game. I trust Vassel’s opinion and he raved about this game. I found his review to be more, say… Profesional?

Vassel's review was what led me to the game as well. A much more reliable and even handed voice than many reviewers I would say.

After watching the review, I can agree with them about the rules being on the cards instead of the rulebook.  But that is some of what I like about the game.  The base rules are simple.  Play a card, play a power, draw a card.  The complexity comes in with what characters you pick and their individual decks.  And I've had games that have gotten quite a bit fiddly.  This card is increasing damage, but this card is reducing it.  This card is doing this, that card is doing that.  Sometimes it just works out that way.

As far as the characters only doing damage or no player interaction, or the rest of the review even, they're way off.  Maybe they should try playing a couple more games before they form an opinion.  I guess if they don't like then they just don't like it.  Entirely up to them.

I also enjoy the fact that I don't need to consult a rulebook with this game.

The more I think of the review, the more I wonder if they were saying something like this:

"And the game makes no sense…there's no board to play on or pieces to move!  It's madness!"

"Yes…this game really needs to have something…something logical, something visible…such as characters that move when you roll dice."

"I really don't know why anyone would play this board game.  Sentinels of the Multiverse is a TERRIBLE board game!  All you have is cards!"

And I agree with them.  Sentinels of the Multiverse is a terrible board game.  Much in the way that the Mona Lisa is a terrible music video, to quote The Foldable Human.

For now...

Am I the only one that heard a slightly maniacal laugh when they read that?

Nope.

As somebody who writes criticism on the internet (movies, games, restaurants, books, etc) I started thinking it was a really amusing review, and slowly my stomach sank. It was as though they emptied the box on a table and started yelling at the pile of cards. It felt like a last minute homework asighment moreso than a review based on several playthroughs and some research.

That said, more power to them. I'm just sad that most of the comments on the thread where a lot better articulated than the "it is too simple and also too complicated" rants in the video.

(They're not really PA's PATV's program SUSD, they're just SUSD, also featured on PA)

On their main site, there are also a bunch of comments that do a better job of reviewing the game then they do (including one of mine, and I also tried to provide info to people asking about the game): Shut Up & Sit Down | Review: Sentinels of the Multiverse

I got the impression that there were two things that went wrong with the review. They were very, very univocal about the flaws of the game. So much, and actually unusually much for them, that it suggests to me that they formed a group opinion very early on, perhaps on the first game, which colored most of their experiences with the game. I often see that happening when people play a game that takes some time to get used to for the first time, and for some reason something in their head clicks to "this game is terrible". However, I would have expected the SUSD crew to be conscious of things like that, so this review disappointed me.

Secondly, it seems they have EVERYTHING, all expansions, all promos, everything. Their comment that `after 12 playthroughs or so, you have seen all the variety there is' suggests to me that they switched heroes every game, which is actually a terrible idea when learning the game, because so much of the interesting choices in the game (which there were none, according to SUSD) only become apparent when you get a bit familiar with specific decks. Skirting the surface instead of diving in deep is another thing that often goes wrong when people play a game with a lot of content for the first time, and once again I would have expected professional board game reviewers to know better.

Overal the review was , well, just bad, but it was also unusually bad for their standards. Usually they're amusing and do a decent job reviewing or showing games, so if you had to laugh at the intro, it's still worth it to check out their other stuff.

I completely agree with that, some of them are not well balanced because of the layout of the house when they start.  All kinds of randomness can make it unbalanced for one side or the other, but for my group where everyone knows that going in and none of us are a super competative must win all the time type person it doesn't seem to be a big deal.  Its a fun game that leads to all kinds of wonky stories.  Thus the "we just have differnent tastes in games" portion of my comment.

Thats what I thought, Dominion and all of its clones are similar.  Can't back this up statistically but I would be willing to bet most card based games are (excluding those that use a standard deck).